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| 2008 U.S. Presidential Election | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 22 2007, 05:49 AM (37,413 Views) | |
| Bill | Oct 31 2008, 06:26 AM Post #3301 |
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Hmmm.... I know you were being flip, but some people might read that comment as saying that when you're behind, anything goes. It's an important question, especially since the desperate measures employed by the McCain campaign have only lost them support and most of who they have lost have been conservative. The hypocrisy of the McCain campaign squeezing out crocodile tears over Joe the Plumber™ losing his privacy (despite the fact that he's gone and got himself an agent) while others dig up Obama's aunt and uncle speaks for itself. They never asked to become national figures the way Joe the Posterchild did. But it does raise the issue of how low is too low? What kind of tactics would Republican supporters balk at? Publishing the Obama girls' school work? Rummaging through his garbage? The tragedy of McCain is that he is an honourable man fronting the most dishonourable campaign since George W Bush ran against him in 2000. |
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| Bill | Oct 31 2008, 06:35 AM Post #3302 |
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Re: Spreading the wealth: Who said this? And Alaska - we're set up, unlike other states in the union, where it's collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs |
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| beatlechick | Oct 31 2008, 06:43 AM Post #3303 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Heidi? Don't get out much? |
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| Monkey Chow | Oct 31 2008, 10:47 AM Post #3304 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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How about Obama take care of his Auntie out of the $4 million he made on his book last year? Is his Auntie an indication of how he is going to take care of the citizens of the US? i.e. Share your wealth, I'm keeping mine and Auntie's campaign donation. And leave it to you to not understand the difference between a shared ownership interest and the government taking from one property owner to give to another. |
| Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey. | |
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| Bill | Oct 31 2008, 11:13 AM Post #3305 |
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That would be a valid question if you also asked whether McCain uses some of his book profits to look after his ex wife. Is she an example of how McCain is going to treat America when the going gets tough? If that's an unfair question (and it is) then that tells you what you need to know about Obama. Shared ownership is an interesting concept. Following it to its logical conclusion, it means the whole populace has a shared ownership of the challenges that face their country and therefore have a duty to contribute to the solutions. From that, the people deserve to share in the benefits, not just Halliburton shareholders. Instead, all we hear is, "God bless the troops but please God don't make me pay for them." Can you give me an example of how Obama intends to seize property from its rightful owners? Do I smell herring? Edited by Bill, Oct 31 2008, 11:15 AM.
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| Monkey Chow | Oct 31 2008, 12:43 PM Post #3306 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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I don't know, what are you cooking? I also don't know what McCain does for his relatives but I haven't heard of any of them living in muds huts or tenements in Boston buying scratch-offs hoping to hit for enough money to cover the light bill. 1. In 2001 Obama said the Supreme Court should have ordered redistribution of wealth in conjunction with civil rights rulings. 2. Obama told Joe the Plumber he wanted to spread wealth around. That tells me that, regardless of what he says, his fundamental mindset is that of wealth redistribution. By the way, McCain is ahead in Florida in early voting. |
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| Bill | Oct 31 2008, 12:54 PM Post #3307 |
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Well surely in the interests of balance, if you're going to drag one candidate's family into the debate, then why not do the same with the other? To my simple mind, that seems like double standards. But then again, I see double standards when people accept the nuance of the McCain campaign while boiling the Obama campaign down to a single, off-the-cuff sentence. So perhaps someone can explain to me what "Country First" means. I take it to mean working for the greater good of the country, as opposed to making a virtue out of self-interest. But hang on, that's exactly what Obama is advocating and people are running around like he's going to repossess their beach houses. You can't have it both ways. Edited by Bill, Oct 31 2008, 12:55 PM.
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| Monkey Chow | Oct 31 2008, 01:40 PM Post #3308 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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Reality Check |
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| Bill | Oct 31 2008, 01:59 PM Post #3309 |
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What's your point? I've been saying for months that things are going to change once the next president takes office and finally learns the true extent of the mess the previous administration made. (what party are they again? )Of course, it wouldn't be possible for McCain to lower expectations any further than he already has. If Sarah Palin's head doesn't explode, they call it a good day. There is a workable middle ground between reminding people that it isn't going to start raining champagne, and a tragic acceptance of the status quo. Just ask yourself what Reagan asked: are you better off now than you were? |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Oct 31 2008, 02:05 PM Post #3310 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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I like your sense of humour, Heidi! I've just read Bill's response to your post and although I agree with the point he is making, I still got the impression that your post was a good-humoured poke at the world of politics. Edited by JeffLynnesBeard, Oct 31 2008, 02:08 PM.
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| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Oct 31 2008, 02:11 PM Post #3311 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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Obama laid the foundation for this 'reality check' during the Presidential debates. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Bill | Oct 31 2008, 02:14 PM Post #3312 |
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For what it's worth, I enjoyed the joke too. I didn't even mention the other subtext that I might have.
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Oct 31 2008, 02:18 PM Post #3313 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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What are you so scared of? All Government re-distributes wealth by means of taxes. If you believe, at all, in welfare programmes, then you believe in sharing the wealth. Every developed country does it. Surely you've heard of mixed economies? I know Americans, generally, hate taxes - who doesn't? - but public services need funding (i.e. those things that people need but don't make a profit) and those who are in desperate need of help need helping... and charities just don't cut the mustard. We have a collective responsibility to give everybody equal opportunities and, at least, a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs. Decent healthcare wouldn't go amiss, either. Is what I've described above really socialism? I think America, as a country, will only be able to move forward when they get over their 'red menace' hangover. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Oct 31 2008, 02:22 PM Post #3314 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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As for Florida, nearly every poll shows Barack Obama taking Florida, albeit with a very slender margin. Although it's a swing state, out of the last 10 elections, 8 have been won by the Republicans there. Well, officially, anyway. In other words, if Florida went McCain's way, it wouldn't surprise me. Hopefully it won't all come down to Florida this election.
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| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Monkey Chow | Oct 31 2008, 03:00 PM Post #3315 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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I simply have an entirely different view of what a government should and should not do. I don't think the government owes me anything except the opportunity to live in peace and make a living. It's going to be hilarious when McCain wins. |
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| Jacaranda | Oct 31 2008, 03:08 PM Post #3316 |
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In the alternate reality. Andy, thinking of the looming spectre of the "red menace," made me think of this...
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![]() "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through." General Melchett, Blackadder Goes Forth | |
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| Monkey Chow | Oct 31 2008, 03:17 PM Post #3317 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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![]() Either way I have a new batch of Pinot Noir aging. Edited by Monkey Chow, Oct 31 2008, 03:38 PM.
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Oct 31 2008, 03:52 PM Post #3318 |
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Of course you do. You're comfortably well off. You don't need a hand. I don't know whether you're rich or not, but talking about financing a boat with a settlement you got for representing people in a case leads me to believe that you're not short of a few bucks. However, if you were stuck in the cycle of poverty and did need a hand, how would you feel then? Pure hard work will not get people out of poverty. Today's America is one where police officers take second jobs to earn enough money for their families. Although I am sure that you have worked hard for everything you have, not everyone in America has shared your opportunities. There are people living in such poverty in America that it is difficult for them to make the most of any educational opportunities offered to them. Reducing and, eventually, eliminating poverty will help everybody in America. An educated, healthy workforce will only benefit the nation and John McCain does not offer that. Personally, I do not think that Barack Obama goes far enough to address the issue of poverty, but something tells me that he will be doing as much as he possibly can to help these people once in office. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Oct 31 2008, 03:53 PM Post #3319 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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Indeed.
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| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Monkey Chow | Oct 31 2008, 04:51 PM Post #3320 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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You don't know a thing about me. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Oct 31 2008, 05:03 PM Post #3321 |
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All I know is what you've told us and have only written about the limited information you've given. If anything I've said is incorrect, then please feel free to correct me, but just saying "you don't know a thing about me" is a very neat and defensive way of dodging the issues I've mentioned. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Bag O' Nails | Oct 31 2008, 05:15 PM Post #3322 |
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MaccaMomma
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Cathy.....of course I do! In all honesty I haven't seen ONE person wearing a tee shirt!
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| Bag O' Nails | Oct 31 2008, 05:28 PM Post #3323 |
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MaccaMomma
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Yes, I was. Just so you know, I don't believe in "anything goes." My remark was in direct comment to Andy's because in all reality, it does seem like grasping at straws when people look at insignificant things rather than important facts. Unfortunately, many people are wooed by emotion rather than facts. Add a slow economy and unsatisfaction with the current president, and it's a recipe for "change," and an almost guaranteed victory for the opposing team. We all know a charismatic, young, charming and inspiring speaker is more appealing to the masses than someone who is not. Honey can sweeten anything and a lot of people don't "hear" what is being said. Obama is the most liberal, farthest to the left candidate we've had; combine this with the senate and the house, and conservatism will all but have died in our country. So are we "desperate?" You bet. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Oct 31 2008, 05:28 PM Post #3324 |
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MaccaMomma
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![]() One sweet dream came true....London & Liverpool '08 | |
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| Bag O' Nails | Oct 31 2008, 05:32 PM Post #3325 |
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MaccaMomma
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I agree with you.
IF he does, I'll buy you a virtual beer!
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![]() One sweet dream came true....London & Liverpool '08 | |
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| Monkey Chow | Oct 31 2008, 05:45 PM Post #3326 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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Ok. My greatgrandparents on my father's side came to this country from Poland and Czechoslovakia. My greatgrandfathers ended up working for the railroad, I think both at Pennsylvania, then Penn Central, now known as Conrail. My grandfather quit high school and also went to work on the railroad. He also held several other jobs such as bartender. My grandmother went to work as a short order cook when my father spent 8 months in the hospital with bone marrow cancer so they could pay medical bills. Needless to say, they didn't have much extra. My father managed two years of college but could not afford to continue. He left and went into sales. He is now comfortably retired. His brother went to college on a football scholarship. After many years in education, he acquired a doctorate degree and is now running for mayor of a small town. I grew up middle class in the midwest, then moved to the Atlanta area. Yes, my parents were able to send me to a state university. I graduated and went to work in a family business that grew enormously the first few years I worked there and then our major customer ceased to exist. We went into an auto repair franchise which I burned out on quickly from trying to keep mechanics sober and out of jail long enough to work on cars. Because of my mechanical abilities, I had the opportunity to work on a made-for-tv movie in 1988. Over the next ten years I worked 60 movies and television shows plus the odd commercial and video, mainly in the transportation department. I had the opportunity to work 90+ hours a week. If you're going to be dumb, you gotta be tough. Probably half of those I am proud to say, had civil rights implications. ex.: I'll Fly Away, Murder in Mississippi, Carolina Skeletons, and the list goes on. Many an underprivileged person was given the opportunity to work in that industry and very very few took advantage of the opportunity. That business works on a union or quasi-union basis where all are paid equally regardless of whether they do anything. Consequently, most do as little as possible. Although I did not make huge money, I did make a good living, had some great experiences, and worked almost any time there was work. In 1998 anticipating the arrival of my second child and knowing the movie business was moving to places like Canada where there was a favorable exchange rate and cheaper labor, I risked everything I own and enrolled in law school. I did law school in 8 straight trimesters while working full time in a law office. I studied and passed the bar exam on the first try, thank God. I joined up with a partner and purchased the assets of a small law firm in 2001. Since that time we have paid off a mountain of debt and, yes, I am now making a good living. I'm now down to 60 hours a week but still work six and seven day at times. I still live payroll to payroll and paycheck to paycheck. I have represented many poor and unfortunate people, some of them pro bono which is Latin for free of charge. That has been my choice. I also represent many people who are out making a living with whatever skills they have and are also creating jobs for other people. Many of these people go months and even years without a paycheck themselves to grow a business. Like myself and my family before me, these people don't ask for anything from their government other than military and police protection and infrastructure. These are the people that need to be helped by their government, not have a government take the property they have worked for or the property they might work for and give it to the charity of the government's choice. You probably still don't know a thing about me. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Oct 31 2008, 05:55 PM Post #3327 |
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MaccaMomma
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And you're STILL a conservative? Thanks for sharing your story. Many of us have had parents (or in my case, parent; my "dad" was a deadbeat who left me at age 1) that immigrated from another country and have worked endless hours to make a living. Only in America can hard work, ambition, and capitalism cause a dream to come true. You can't depend on the gov't to bail you out if you want to be sucessful. Edited by Bag O' Nails, Oct 31 2008, 05:58 PM.
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![]() One sweet dream came true....London & Liverpool '08 | |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Oct 31 2008, 06:02 PM Post #3328 |
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Akon promises to leave the U.S. if McCain becomes President Is it me or is there always at least one musican/actor who promises to leave the country should their candidate of choice not win? He's had 8 years of Bush... why hasn't he moved already?!
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| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Monkey Chow | Oct 31 2008, 06:08 PM Post #3329 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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I see so many people come to this country and become millionaires. They pay their dues but they get there. |
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| Monkey Chow | Oct 31 2008, 06:10 PM Post #3330 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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I remember Robert Altman saying he would leave if Bush got elected. He didn't. And I loved Altman. I worked for him. But I avoided political discussions with him. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Oct 31 2008, 06:16 PM Post #3331 |
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I see somebody shared their wealth and allowed your Uncle to go to college on a football scholarship. OK, now forget that cheap shot and allow me to give you my serious thoughts.I appreciate you sharing your story, Ron. You must admit that the America of 2008 is a little different to the America your grandparents immigrated to and helped build. It is a lot more difficult these days to earn a living wage for unskilled manual labour work and the opportunities to find gaps in the market for the entrepreneur are few and far between. The pivotal point, in your story, is where you say that you grew up middle class and that your parents were able to send you to a state university. Now, I don't begrudge you that opportunity, but I would want every American to have that same opportunity and, fact is, they just don't. You had a good start in your life and that helped shape the decent person you are. You were fortunate to enjoy such a start in life but I don't see it as 'bailing people out' to offer those who were born into poverty equal opportunities to do exactly as you have. After all, you have been able to use that education and make a positive difference with it. Wouldn't it be better for America as a whole is everyone was able to fulfill their potential? You have done many honourable things in your working life and if everybody was like you and your generous spirit, then this world would be a wonderful place, but they're not. There are at least five selfish, greedy people for every altruist - and I think that's probably an underestimate. I'm pleased for you that you're making a decent living, but you seem to be under the impression that Obama is about to seize people's property and re-distribute them to the needy. That's just not true. Obama only proposes to tax those who can afford it a little more to help the middle classes live a little more comfortably and to fund some very well needed social programs. Nobody's property is going to be seized, but some very healthy, wealthy multi-national corporations are going to find the taxcuts they have enjoyed under Bush gone and some more wealthy people (those earning $250,000 a year or more) will find that they will pay more tax than they previously did. Obama is not proposing socialism, but he is proposing needed changes to fund social programs. There is a huge difference. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| maccascruff | Oct 31 2008, 06:23 PM Post #3332 |
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Sing the Changes
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I wish you could see me! I am wearing an Obama/Biden t-shirt. I also have a Colorado for Obama t-shirt and one of Obama, Clinton, JRK and FDR walking across Abbey Road. I have two hoodies--one that is just Obama and another that is Obama/Biden. I have three bumer stickers on my car--End of an Error 1.20.2009, Obama 08 and Obama/Biden. I have an Obama/Biden magnet on my front door. I also have numerous buttons. And I have a That One sweatshirt. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Oct 31 2008, 06:23 PM Post #3333 |
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Obama pushes for McCain territory The latest polls shown as part of that article show Obama on 52% and McCain on 41% with a +/- 2% margin of error. Still confident of a McCain win, Ron? |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Monkey Chow | Oct 31 2008, 06:39 PM Post #3334 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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McCain supporters don't have time to answer polls. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Oct 31 2008, 06:44 PM Post #3335 |
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That could be true. They seem to be far too busy writing blogs.
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| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| maccascruff | Oct 31 2008, 06:45 PM Post #3336 |
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Sing the Changes
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Guess I am a self made woman. My parents both came from large families and their fathers both lost their farms in the depression. Both do have a high school education. My father was able to work and retire from a white collar job at Firestone, but the pension is pitiful. My mother waited tables. No pension there. My parents told my sister and me early on that there was no money for college. I am proud to say that both of us put ourselves through college and I got a graduate degree. I am also proud that after going to college in the evenings for three years, I decided that was no way to get an education. I then completed three years of college in two academic years and graduated summa cum laude. My senior year cost me about $100 plus books because I received academic scholarships. I spent my career at the IRS. After I took an early retirement on December 31, 1995, I have worked off and on since then. After my last experience, I am finished working and will now live on my hard earned pension. And I am a proud Democrat. |
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| Monkey Chow | Oct 31 2008, 06:58 PM Post #3337 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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Did you live in Akron? I grew up near there. Now it's Bridgestone, not Firestone. I have spent a lot of time talking politics because I believe the American way with opportunity for all is worth fighting and even dying for. I don't believe the tax plan is what is socialist. Obama wants to increase the already graduated plan to charge high earners more. Although his official platform does not say so, his mindset appears to favor redistribution of wealth. I also don't like this whole bailout and government investment in banks and businesses. I'm sure you will be all to happy to point out that it was Bush's idea. In some ways I think it is easier now than ever to succeed. Back when my grandparents were getting started in life it was no problem to discriminate against someone because they had a funny name like ours. Funny, I seldom hear the word Pollack now that I'm a lawyer.
Edited by Monkey Chow, Oct 31 2008, 07:10 PM.
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| maccascruff | Oct 31 2008, 07:05 PM Post #3338 |
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Sing the Changes
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Des Moines. There is a Firestone plant there. My mom said my dad always had rubber breath.
Every time my dad receives mail from Bridgestone, he is sure his pension is gone. When my dad retired, it was still Firestone. He never worked for Bridgestone and he tells everyone that. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Oct 31 2008, 08:10 PM Post #3339 |
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MaccaMomma
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Here's my two cents on this stuff about poverty, wealth, opportunity.... Not many of us were born with a silver spoon in our mouths. Most of us have had to EARN our way, regardless of our origins. America is truly the land of opportunity. If you want it, you CAN get it, whether or not you initially have the means or not. Ron, Linda, and myself (to name a few because they have shared their stories) are some that prove this. And one is a democrat; the other two conservatives. So what's the influential factor here? I say it's DESIRE and MOTIVATION. The problem isn't that your're always necessarily "stuck" when you don't have anything; the opportunity IS there...you just have to want it bad enough. Waiting for the gov't to bail you out; give you a tax break, etc is NOT the ultimate answer to all your problems. One will never be financially comfy if you think Uncle Sam's tax break will solve all your problems. Look at the welfare system; it stinks! Most sit back and take advantage of it; thinking the gov't "owes them." How many actually use it temporarily to get them out of a bind and then go off it when they get the education and job that they need to make it on their own? So, being a liberal or conservative is more of an "idealism" or what you value/believe in rather than how much money you have or don't have. |
![]() One sweet dream came true....London & Liverpool '08 | |
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| Monkey Chow | Oct 31 2008, 08:27 PM Post #3340 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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Right on, sister. |
| Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey. | |
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| tagandolfo | Oct 31 2008, 09:00 PM Post #3341 |
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Just to let everyone know---- I just found the results of the Weekly Reader poll conducted on 125,000 school age participants - a demographic of most of the nation's school districts. This poll has been going on since 1956 and has accurately predicted every presidential election since then except the 1992 Clinton election (why? they forgot to put Ross Perot on the ballot and he pulled a significant amount of votes away from Bush). Results are--- Obama with 54.7% McCain with 42.9% Other with 2.5% Most significantly, according to the results, were that Obama won 33 states and Washington D.C. - a massive Electoral College victory. The theory is that kids reflect parents attitudes. Just thought I would share.
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| Jacaranda | Oct 31 2008, 11:21 PM Post #3342 |
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From The American Psychological Association website -- Myths about Welfare Myth: A Huge Chunk of My Tax Dollars Supports Welfare Recipients Fact: Welfare Costs 1 Percent of the Federal Budget Widespread misperception about the extent of welfare exacerbate the problems of poverty. The actual cost of welfare programs-about 1 percent of the federal budget and 2 percent of state budgets (McLaughlin, 1997)-is proportionally less than generally believed. During the 104th Congress, more than 93 percent of the budget reductions in welfare entitlements came from programs for low-income people (Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, 1996). Ironically, middle-class and wealthy Americans also receive "welfare" in the form of tax deductions for home mortgages, corporate and farm subsidies, capital gains tax limits, Social Security, Medicare, and a multitude of other tax benefits. Yet these types of assistance carry no stigma and are rarely considered "welfare" (Goodgame, 1993). Anti-welfare sentiment appears to be related to attitudes about class and widely shared and socially sanctioned stereotypes about the poor. Racism also fuels negative attitudes toward welfare programs (Quadagno, 1994). Myth: Most Welfare Recipients Are African American Women Fact: Most Welfare Recipients Are Children-Most Women on Welfare Are White Children, not women, are the largest group of people receiving public assistance. Less than 5 million of the 14 million public assistance recipients are adults, and 90 percent of those adults are women (U.S. Bureau of Census, 1995). The majority of the recipients are White (38 percent), followed by 37 percent African Americans, and 25 percent other minority groups (Latinos, Native Americans, and Asian Americans) (McLaughlin, 1997). However, African Americans are disproportionately represented on public assistance because they are only 12 percent of the population (O'Hare, Pollard, Mann, & Kent, 1991). Myth: Welfare Families Use Their Benefits to Fund Extravagance Fact: Welfare Families Live Far Below the Poverty Line The belief that welfare provides a disincentive to work by providing a well-paying "free ride" that enables recipients, stereotyped as "Cadillac queens," to purchase extravagant items with their benefits is another myth. In reality, recipients live considerably below the poverty threshold. Despite increased program spending, the average monthly family benefit, measured in 1995 dollars, fell from $713 in 1970 to $377 in 1995, a 47 percent drop. In 26 states, AFDC benefits alone fell 64 percent short of the 1996 poverty guidelines, and the addition of food stamps only reduced this gap to 35 percent (Staff of House Committee on Ways and Means, 1996). |
![]() "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through." General Melchett, Blackadder Goes Forth | |
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| Bill | Oct 31 2008, 11:29 PM Post #3343 |
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I think it's unworthy to imply that all those who support Obama have been wooed by a good looking smooth talker and they have missed what he is actually saying. Do you not allow for the possibility that people have heard exactly what he's saying and like it? Most liberal ever? Funny how that's exactly what they said about John Kerry. You really need to get some new talking points. As I've said before, conservatives have no-one to blame but the Republican party for selling them out. Genuine conservatism is alive and well. But the hard-right neocon agenda is dead, and good riddance. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Oct 31 2008, 11:31 PM Post #3344 |
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MaccaMomma
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I didn't comment on welfare so that we could make it a topic of discussion on this thread; I mentioned it because it's a GOVT-run program and the meaning was that we cannot depend on the govt to provide us financial relief. Will Obama's lower tax plan truly impact anyone enough that they will become "happy" or financially comfortable? Now I'm not a Mormon, but I like a lot of what this person says: Truth and Lies About Welfare |
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| Bill | Oct 31 2008, 11:31 PM Post #3345 |
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Have you seen the news lately?
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| Bag O' Nails | Oct 31 2008, 11:40 PM Post #3346 |
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MaccaMomma
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I never implied "all." Certainly many people are voting for him because they agree with his points of view or simply because they are a democrat. But like I said, mix discontent with a young, charismatic talker who promises "change" and people will vote for anyone! Not everyone "listens" or understands; emotion plays a huge part of the equation.
Well he IS more liberal than Kerry! I just wonder what would've happened if Kerry did win the election and didn't run for a second term...maybe Obama wouldn't be so popular now. Maybe we'd be all screaming for "change" of a different sort. |
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| Deleted User | Oct 31 2008, 11:44 PM Post #3347 |
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Deleted User
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They're too busy sending out robocalls.
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| Deleted User | Oct 31 2008, 11:51 PM Post #3348 |
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Deleted User
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Great article! I was unlucky to inherit ESRD from my mother, but then again, I am pretty darn lazy when you pry me away from the computer! I still wish I could have gotten a full-time job when I was initially diagnosed with ESRD in 1991, instead of sitting on a kidney machine for three days a week, four hours a day for 14 years. On the bright side, my mother was on a kidney machine for three days a week, eight hours a day AND had to drive an hour there and back by herself! She died of ESRD-related stroke afte 23 years on dialysis in October 2000. The average lifespan for a kidney patient is about three years and dialysis costs $25,000 a month, while transplants cost $100,000 initially, but only $4500 a month after that. |
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| Jacaranda | Oct 31 2008, 11:52 PM Post #3349 |
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The reason I put up the myths of welfare is because many in the Republican party would have you believe that welfare is taking all of our tax money and redistributing it to the unworthy, the lazy, those who can't and won't work. This argument is central to the criticism of Obama as a socialist who wants to "redistribute the wealth." Take a good look at the myths. The statistics I put up come from a non-partisan, non-biased, sorry, non-Mormon group, the American Psychological Association. The point is: the largest group on welfare is children. American children. |
![]() "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through." General Melchett, Blackadder Goes Forth | |
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| Bill | Oct 31 2008, 11:52 PM Post #3350 |
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Hi Ron, Thanks for sharing your story. I don't want to make any assumptions, so here's a genuine question: How do you reconcile your desire for a minimalist government with your career as a lawyer? I'm not taking cheap shots at the legal profession - as is the fashion - but it seems to me, following simple cause and effect, that the less government "interference" there is in people's lives, then the less laws and regulations there are and less work for you and your peers. Now, that alone would be one thing. I have enormous admiration for those who understand their industries have to change even though it might disadvantage them personally. But that doesn't square with what you said about tort reform, which I found very interesting. Tort reform, as I understand it, is not designed to diddle rightfully aggrieved parties out of the compensation they deserve. Instead, it's intended to get them quicker settlements by getting rid of all the idiots who want to sue McDonalds because nobody told them fast food made them fat. Okay, I admit I chose an extreme example there. But let's be honest, for every asbestos class action, there are fifty others who just want to sue someone because it's easier than working. So by my reckoning, if government is to get out of people's lives, then one of the first things to go should be all the laws that allow the income rightfully earned by McDonalds to be redistributed to Dipshit McDoofus all because they didn't tell him that his coffee would be hot. With respect, the two points of view seem to contradict one another. Care to educate me?
Edited by Bill, Nov 1 2008, 01:26 AM.
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| Bill | Oct 31 2008, 11:54 PM Post #3351 |
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I'm putting this bit in a separate post because it's not to do with what Ron said and he's right - I don't know anything about him. My issue with the libertarian attitude is that a lot of them seem to be saying government should get out of MY life but it should also force others to be more like me. |
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| Bill | Nov 1 2008, 12:00 AM Post #3352 |
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But how do you square that with the fact that Obama is winning all kinds of support from thinking conservatives who wouldn't have dreamt of supporting Kerry? And no, I'm not implying that conservatives who support McCain are not thinking people, but let's be honest (aargh - second time in a row I've used that expression ) there are people who would vote Republican even if Forghorn Leghorn were the candidate, just as there are people who would vote for Daffy Duck if he were on the Democratic ticket. The people who decide things are the ones in between. And they include a lot of prominent conservatives. REAL conservatives, if I may. Why would they be supporting Obama if he truly is the most left wing candidate the Dems have ever offered? |
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| beatlechick | Nov 1 2008, 12:23 AM Post #3353 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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No it won't. No matter who wins it won't be hilarious. There is far to much sh*t under the bridge that needs to be dug up and gotten rid of for anything to be hilarious. Your reality check post is something I think most of us here have been saying or feeling since this all started. I know there have been many times where me and my boyfriend have yelled at the tv whenever either one of them said they "promise" to do this or that. We would yell "you hope" or "you propose" to be able to do this or that. For those of us who suffered under Dumbya, er Bush, we just want some new leadership. This man has reminded many of us of the Kennedy Brothers. For many of us, that makes us excited. Excited to be back on the precipice of something potentially great. Of course that could always explode in our faces but that is the chance we have to take, as we have found out so many times over the years. So no, we won't be laughing if Obama wins. Just smiling. |
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| beatlechick | Nov 1 2008, 12:38 AM Post #3354 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Now you know what it's like for us that are a little bit more liberal, centrist right here, have been going through for 8 years. We hate the fact that the ultra-conservatives, not anyone here I hope, right-wing religious people have been doing to this country. How we, the more liberal faction here, have been made to feel like we did not believe in God because we did not necessarily espouse the same values as the right-wing religious people do. How bad we are because those of us, a good deal of America, who work and work hard for what little we get want to have a type of universal healthcare because what we earn doesn't pay enough to cover our minor healthcare bills, and definitely put us in quite a bind if anything real bad happens healthwise. How bad we are because we wanted a piece of the American dream but could not afford it without help. I'm 53 years old. I have never been able to own my own house and now that has gotten way out of my reach unless I inherit one (like inheriting my mom's house that neither me or my brother can afford to keep). So now you know what it feels like and the election ain't over with yet. I have been saying, and will continue to do so, that I am not overly joyed to having both the house and senate democrat but if that is the way it has to be, than that is something you will have to fight to gain back like we did. |
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| maccascruff | Nov 1 2008, 01:24 AM Post #3355 |
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Sing the Changes
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I see this in my upstairs neighbors. They are not married because she will lose her welfare if they do get married. They will also lose their Section 8 housing if they get married. I have lived here for 15 months and they have been here as a couple that entire time. He has told me they have no plans to marry or for her to actually attempt to get a job. One thing I consistently saw while preparing tax returns, is that people who qualify for the Earned Income Credit knew more about the qualifications than we did. They know exactly where it tops out and will quit their job so they get the maximum credit. They will have another baby if a child is getting too old. And they would have gotten extremely angry if the word welfare was used, but that is what this tax provision is. At least they have to work some to get the credit. |
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| maccascruff | Nov 1 2008, 01:28 AM Post #3356 |
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Sing the Changes
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Well said, Cathy. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Nov 1 2008, 01:52 AM Post #3357 |
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MaccaMomma
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Like I said, I'm not Mormon...I just liked some of what his opinions were with the mindset of some people on welfare. I don't think that anyone in their right mind would say that children from any nation don't deserve help! I'm all for giving aid to children who need it; I was one of those myself and grateful for every dime that Uncle Sam helped my mother with! But she used the system correctly; she was a poor imigrant with two babies and a husband who abandoned her. What was she to do? I thank God everyday that this wonderful country helped her get on her feet! She got her GED, went to secretarial college, got a job, and retired after 21 years. THAT's the way the system is supposed to work; does it work that way now? I don't know.
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| Bag O' Nails | Nov 1 2008, 02:40 AM Post #3358 |
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MaccaMomma
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Dissatisfaction and disagreement with the current administration. Obama has been successful with comparing McCain to Bush, and people are buying it. Plus, I do think that the younger, more charismatic Obama outshines the older, stiff-bodied McCain; especially to young people. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Nov 1 2008, 02:43 AM Post #3359 |
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MaccaMomma
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Good overall post. Although I for one won't be smiling come Wednesday morning...
Edited by Bag O' Nails, Nov 1 2008, 02:46 AM.
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| Bill | Nov 1 2008, 02:57 AM Post #3360 |
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Who's talking about young people? There's Colin Powell, Scott McLennan, Christopher Buckley, Christopher Hitchens who have all come out in support of Obama. I'm not saying the punditocracy should change anyone's mind but this is NOT the moveon.org crowd we're talking about here, these are deep conservatives supporting Obama. That just doesn't gel with the assertion that Obama is a radical liberal. You're right that disillusionment with the Bush administration has a lot to do with it. But why would people be disillusioned with Bush? It's because the neocon agenda (I always distingush between that and genuine conservatism) has comprehensively failed. The reality is that Obama's policies represent the values of real conservatives more than the Republicans do. If Reagan were running today, the Republicans would be saying he's too liberal. |
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| Bill | Nov 1 2008, 05:18 AM Post #3361 |
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Here's a reality check to chew on: It's a bit rich for the governor of Alaska to talk about the dangers of socialism. Alaska is the most subsidised state in the union. If it weren't for the lower 48 spreading the wealth to them, they wouldn't exist. Oh, but they have all these natural resources. And do they use those resources to pay back the subsidies? No, they keep it all for themselves. Talk about a welfare state! If anyone is serious about the evils of wealth-spreading, then the first thing they should campaign for is to stop their hard-earned money going to support an ungrateful, no-net-benefit (albeit beautiful) Alaska. If they are serious, then Alaska should only get funding proportional to how many taxpayers live there and the majority of taxpayer money should be spent where the majority of taxpayers live. Places like New York. |
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| Jacaranda | Nov 1 2008, 05:50 AM Post #3362 |
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Speaking of one of the prominent conservatives that have endorsed Obama… Christopher Buckley, son of William Buckley, Jr. has known Mc Cain personally since 1982. He’s written a speech for him. This year he wrote an editorial in favor of McCain in the New York Times. According to Buckley: “McCain rose to power on his personality and biography. He was authentic. He spoke truth to power. He told the media they were “jerks” (a sure sign of authenticity, to say nothing of good taste; we are jerks). He was real. He was unconventional. A year ago, when everyone, including the man I’m about to endorse, was caterwauling to get out of Iraq on the next available flight, John McCain, practically alone, said no, no—bad move. Surge. It seemed a suicidal position to take, an act of political bravery of the kind you don’t see a whole lot of anymore. “But that was—sigh—then. John McCain has changed. He said, famously, apropos the Republican debacle post-1994, “We came to Washington to change it, and Washington changed us.” This campaign has changed John McCain. It has made him inauthentic. A once-first class temperament has become irascible and snarly; his positions change, and lack coherence; he makes unrealistic promises, such as balancing the federal budget “by the end of my first term.” Who, really, believes that? Then there was the self-dramatizing and feckless suspension of his campaign over the financial crisis. His ninth-inning attack ads are mean-spirited and pointless. And finally, not to belabor it, there was the Palin nomination. What on earth can he have been thinking? All this is genuinely saddening, and for the country is perhaps even tragic, for America ought, really, to be governed by men like John McCain—who have spent their entire lives in its service, even willing to give the last full measure of their devotion to it. If he goes out losing ugly, it will be beyond tragic, graffiti on a marble bust.” Why is Buckley voting for Obama? According to Buckley, “he has exhibited throughout a “first-class temperament,” pace Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.’s famous comment about FDR.” Buckley adds that as for Obama’s intellect, “he’s a Harvard man, though that’s sure as heck no guarantee of anything, these days.” He commends Obama’s books as “first rate,” saying “he is that rara avis, the politician who writes his own books.” Though Buckley doesn’t agree on Obama’s “lefty” nature, he says: “But having a first-class temperament and a first-class intellect, President Obama will (I pray, secularly) surely understand that traditional left-politics aren’t going to get us out of this pit we’ve dug for ourselves. If he raises taxes and throws up tariff walls and opens the coffers of the DNC to bribe-money from the special interest groups against whom he has (somewhat disingenuously) railed during the campaign trail, then he will almost certainly reap a whirlwind that will make Katrina look like a balmy summer zephyr. Obama has in him—I think, despite his sometimes airy-fairy “We are the people we have been waiting for” silly rhetoric—the potential to be a good, perhaps even great leader. He is, it seems clear enough, what the historical moment seems to be calling for.” |
![]() "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through." General Melchett, Blackadder Goes Forth | |
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| Monkey Chow | Nov 1 2008, 11:32 AM Post #3363 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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Hi Ron, Thanks for sharing your story. I don't want to make any assumptions, so here's a genuine question: How do you reconcile your desire for a minimalist government with your career as a lawyer? I'm not taking cheap shots at the legal profession - as is the fashion - but it seems to me, following simple cause and effect, that the less government "interference" there is in people's lives, then the less laws and regulations there are and less work for you and your peers. Now, that alone would be one thing. I have enormous admiration for those who understand their industries have to change even though it might disadvantage them personally. There will always be plenty of and I would submit there would be many more business transactions, real estate transactions, business formations. There would continue to be business disputes, divorces, custody disputes, wills, trusts, probate, personal injuries and other torts, and plenty of other legal business I haven't mentioned here to keep lawyers busy. But that doesn't square with what you said about tort reform, which I found very interesting. Tort reform, as I understand it, is not designed to diddle rightfully aggrieved parties out of the compensation they deserve. Instead, it's intended to get them quicker settlements by getting rid of all the idiots who want to sue McDonalds because nobody told them fast food made them fat. Okay, I admit I chose an extreme example there. But let's be honest, for every asbestos class action, there are fifty others who just want to sue someone because it's easier than working. So by my reckoning, if government is to get out of people's lives, then one of the first things to go should be all the laws that allow the income rightfully earned by McDonalds to be redistributed to Dipshit McDoofus all because they didn't tell him that his coffee would be hot. With respect, the two points of view seem to contradict one another. Care to educate me? Tort reform is aimed at two things, mainly: reducing the amounts of frivolous lawsuits and capping the award of punitive damages a Plaintiff can obtain from a jury. The idea is that juries are out of hand, award too much money, and insurance companies, then the medical profession mainly, and then the consumer pays for all this in runaway medical costs. So now we are required to have expert affidavits before we file a medical malpractice or other professional malpractice case. Most pro se, (unrepresented), litigants don't know this so their cases get tossed early on a technicality. This does cut down on frivolous lawsuits but may also exclude meritorious lawsuits. (Get a lawyer)> Secondly, tort reform caps the award of punitive damages. Generally a real Plaintiff in a personal injury suit or in a medical malpractice suit has suffered some severe injury, probably can't work, and probably has huge medical bills. Lawyers take these cases on a contingent fee basis. The lawyers invest all their own money into hiring experts, paying for depositions, and paying their overhead in the hopes that at the end of the process they will recoup their investment and receive their 1/3 to 42% of the proceeds of the award. Of course insurance companies know this and often purposely string the Plaintiff and lawyers out as long as possible, any way. So let's say you are in a severe car accident and the good news is the other driver was working for a big company which is insured. It turns out the company had failed to maintain the vehicle and there are records that document. You have injuries that have cost $250,000 in medical bills so far. You are in constant, intense pain and you need a back surgery you can't afford. You are on strong medication and you can barely think. You're never going to be able to work again. You go to a jury trial and the jury awards you $250,000 for your medical bills, $250,000 for pain and suffering and loss of work, and then they are limited to awarding you $250,000 in punitive damages. The total is $750,000. $250,000 (or more) goes to you lawyer. $250,000 goes to pay your medical bills. At best, that leaves you $250,000 for the rest of your life to feed your family and hopefully get the medical treatment you will need. Doesn't sound so good to me. Now I don't know where this McDonald's case came from. In my experience, frivolous lawsuits get tossed pretty early. I have inadvertently filed a few on behalf of lying clients which I later found out about and dropped. You never know all the facts from the beginning. However, in my experience, there are few that make it to court and few that get any money awarded. Somewhere you spoke about Libertarianism. I invite you to investigate it for yourself. Part of the Libertarian philosophy is to investigate everything for yourself. Libertarianism has roots in the teachings of Socrates and Aristotle. There was a belief that a republican government, that is representative democracy, should be ruled by "philosopher kings", well-educated individuals who don't need a government meddling in their personal affairs. So to say a Libertarian was trying to make you like them would not square with any Libertarian ideal. Libertarians believe the individual has the right to decide what is right for himself or herself. Thus, no legislation of morals. (Of course that doesn't mean the individual doesn't have morals from other sources such as their religion, the government just stays out of it. There is also a belief in individual liberty and freedom. Anybody remember freedom? There is always a need for infrastructure and defense. There will always be a court system to put real criminals in jail and to referee civil disputes. Unfortunately, the Libertarian philosophy requires individuals to be educated and self-reliant and our lawmaker have spent years trying to make us entirely dependent on the government to make our decisions for us. Although nobody listens, I still say this is what has caused our present economic crisis. Here is a shining example. Beginning in the 1990s, the US began a social program whereby we provided access to low interest home loans for people with bad credit. The free market says if you have great credit, you always pay your bills, we can afford to give you low interest rates and charge you less fees for your loan. If you have bad credit and don't always pay your bills on time, we the lender are going to incur extra costs to collect our money so we pass that on to you in the form of higher interest and fees to do your loan. Well, we decided that was bad and we had to provide low interest low cost loans to everybody. Then came laws making it illegal and even criminal to make loans with higher interest rates and charges. So then, over 15 years, almost anybody that could fog a mirror got a house and a low interest loan. Many of these people did not have the mindset that one pays one's mortgage first. Then you throw in some high gas prices and these people's lives start to unravel. They can't make the mortgage payment. The credit cards are maxed out. There's nowhere to turn so they get foreclosed. Ten years ago, if someone were in that position, they could go to a lender and get a consolidation refi and keep their house. They'd pay a high fee on the front end which got rolled into the loan and pay a higher home interest rate but it was much lower than what they were paying for credit cards. And they kept their house. Then in a year or two, they could refinance again at a lower rate when their credit improved. But our government in all their wisdom decided us poor citizens were too dumb to make a business decision like that on our own and legislated away that possibility. So now a homeowner gets into trouble and the only option is foreclosure. Thousands of houses are dumped back on the market and the prices go down instead of up like they have for years. Banks are holding all these houses and bad paper and realizing some people really don't deserve credit. I don't think I have the energy to talk anymore. |
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| Bill | Nov 1 2008, 12:17 PM Post #3364 |
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Thanks for that exhaustive response Ron. ![]() I'm certainly not for capping payments. Mind you, medical costs would be a lot lower if there were public health cover, but that's another discussion. Still, I fully agree that there should be no cap. I am for preventing frivolous claims but I worry about who would decide what makes something frivolous. A couple of years ago, for reasons that eluded just about everyone, Bush made mention in the State of the Union address of "frivolous asbestos suits." If it's asbestos, it ain't frivolous. I love the idea of philosopher kings but I can think of only one in the world. It's going to sound horrible when I say this, but I think it's reasonable to say that there are some people who need leadership. I think that's why many people are attracted to dictatorial leaders, even in democracies, because deep down they don't really want to be responsible for their own destiny, they want someone to lead the way for them. It's a very interesting philosophical question as to whether we elect representatives or leaders. The idealist in me says it should be the former but my pragmatic side realises it's the latter. I view libertarianism much the same way as I view anarchy - a nice idea if everyone is of a similar mindset, but they're not so it isn't going to work. Similarly, both communism and capitalism are excellent systems in their purest forms, but they fall apart when you add people into the mix. Regarding the mortgage meltdown, your point is well taken. However, it gets back to what I was saying about people needing leadership. If an individual were smart enough to realise he couldn't afford a loan, then he wouldn't try to get one. But I can't blame someone who applies for a loan assuming that the bank is financially smarter than he is and therefore, if he is given the loan, that must mean he's a good risk. [Aside: I remember seeing a TV ad for some kind of lending agency and the slogan was, "When the banks say no, we say, 'no worries.'" I heard that and immediately thought, "Well how stupid are you?" but then, I'm smart. Others aren't.] I take your point about socialising the interest rates but by my understanding of what you said, no bank was ever forced to grant a loan. They still could have said no if they felt the risk were too great, am I right? So if the banks preferred to give people the regular-interest loan rather than turning them down, then the responsibility is on the banks. And I wonder if that was the real point of the laws you mentioned - to stop lenders from charging higher fees to those who couldn't afford even fees interest and instead just say yes or no. Again, that assumes the banks are going to act responsibly. I do agree that some people do not deserve credit. There's nothing judgemental in that either. But if they don't deserve credit, the answer is simply, Don't give it to them. Thanks again for your time.
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| maccascruff | Nov 1 2008, 03:03 PM Post #3365 |
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Sing the Changes
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I hope and hope that I will have a big smile on my face late Tuesday evening and Wednesday morning. I also am not young and I voted for Obama. The workers that I see when I am canvassing are not young, but they are excited. Go to one of Obama's rallies and you see people of all ages. My 84 year old racist parents voted for Obama. |
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| mspeel 007 | Nov 1 2008, 03:06 PM Post #3366 |
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We WILL have BIIIIIG smiles on our faces on Wed.......oh yes......we will!!!!!!
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| [AND IN THE END.....THE LOVE YOU TAKE...IS EQUAL TO THE LOVE YOU MAKE | |
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| ThirdHarmony | Nov 1 2008, 07:11 PM Post #3367 |
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Love your optimism! I hope so very much that you are right.Myself, I'm trying to decide whether to attend a midnight event with friends to watch the results come in or whether to sit at home in the dark, breathing quietly into a paper bag. |
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"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson "Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. | |
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| beatlechick | Nov 1 2008, 07:36 PM Post #3368 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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That paper bag may get a lot of uses like: 1)picking up the bullsh*t from this campaign. 2) picking up the leftover bullsh*t from the past 8 years. 3) throwing up in it once we see how far down the US and world has been dragged into hell from the past administration. 4) just blowing into it in the hopes of not fainting. 5) all of the above. |
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| maccascruff | Nov 1 2008, 11:45 PM Post #3369 |
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Sing the Changes
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I may need that paper bag, too. I sure hope not. The suspense of Tuesday is killing me. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Nov 2 2008, 12:42 AM Post #3370 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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Sarah Palin pranked by Montreal radio hosts in call posted to YouTube Vancouver Sun Published: Saturday, November 01, 2008 A notorious Montreal-based comedy duo has released a recording of a prank phone call made to Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin, in which one of the participants pretends to be French President Nicolas Sarkozy. Palin, unaware she was being recorded and actually speaking to a Quebec radio DJ, talked for nearly six minutes as the conversation touched on topics such as a Hustler porn video made about her, shooting animals from helicopters, and how the French leader could "see Belgium" from his house. A full transcript of the call follows: Assistant: This is Betsy. MA: Hello, Betsy. This is Frank l'ouvrier, I'm with President Sarkozy, on the line for Governor Palin. Assistant: One second please, can you hold on one second please? MA: No problem. Assistant: Hi, I'm going to hand the phone over to her. MA: Okay thank you very much I'm going to put the president on the line. Assistant: Ok he's coming to the line. SP: This is Sarah. MA: Okay, Governor Palin? SP: Hellloooo... MA: Just hold on for President Sarkozy, one moment. SP: Oh, it's not him yet, I always do that. I'll just have people hand it to me right when it's them. FNS: Yes, hello, Governor Palin? Yes, hello, Mrs. Governor? SP: Hello this is Sarah, how are you? FNS: Fine, and you, this is Nicolas Sarkozy speaking, how are you? SP: Oh... So good, it's so good to hear you. Thank you for calling us. FNS: Oh, it's a pleasure. SP: Thank you sir, we have such great respect for you, John McCain and I, we love you and thank you for spending a few minutes to talk to me. FNS: I follow your campaigns closely with my special American Advisor Johnny Hallyday, you know? SP: Yes! Good! FNS: Excellent! Are you confident? SP: Very confident and we're thankful that the polls are showing that the race is tightening and-- FNS: Well I know very well that the campaign can be exhausting. How do you feel right now my dear? SP: Ah, I feel so good. I feel like we're in a marathon and at the very end of the marathon, you get your second wind and you plow to the finish- FNS: You see, I got elected in France because I'm real and you seem to be someone who's real as well. SP: Yes, yeah, Nicolas, we so appreciate this opportunity. FNS: You know, I see you as a president, one day, you too. SP: Maybe in eight years. Haha FNS: Well, ah, I hope for you. You know we have a lot in common because personally one of my favorite activities is to hunt too. SP: Oh very good, we should go hunting together. FNS: Exactly! We could go try hunting by helicopter, like you did, I never did that. SP: [laugh] FNS: Like we say in France, "on pourrait tuer des bébés phoques aussi" [We could also kill some baby seals]. SP: [laugh] Well I think we could have a lot of fun together as we're getting work done, we can kill two birds with one stone that way. FNS: I just love killing those animals. Mm, mm. Take away a life, that is so fun! SP: [laugh] FNS: I'd really love to go as long as we don't bring your Vice president Cheney, hahaha. SP: No, I'll be a careful shot, yes. FNS: You know we have a lot in common also except that from my ass I can see Belgium. That's kind of less interesting than you. SP: Well, see, we're right next door to other countries that we all need to be working with, yes. FNS: Some people said in the last days, and I thought that was mean, that you weren't experienced enough in foreign relations, and you know, that's completely false, that's the thing I said to my great friend, the Prime Minister of Canada, Stef Carse [a Quebecois country singer]. SP: Well, he's doing fine, too, and yeah when you come into a position underestimated, it gives you the opportunity to prove the pundits and the critics wrong. You work that much harder- FNS: I, I was wondering because you are also next to him, one of my good friends, also, the prime minister of Quebec, Mr. Richard Z. Sirois, have you met him recently? Did he come to one of your rallies? SP: Uh, haven't seen him at one of the rallies, but it's been great working with the Canadian officials in my role as governor; we have a great cooperative effort there as we work on all of our resource development projects. You know I look forward to working with you and getting to meet you personally and your beautiful wife, oh my goodness, you've added a lot of energy to your country, even, with that beautiful family of yours. FNS: Thank you very much. You know my wife, Carla, would love to meet you. You know even though she was a bit jealous that I was supposed to speak to you today. SP: [laugh] Well give her a big hug from me. FNS: You know my wife is a popular singer and a former top model and she's so hot in bed. She even wrote a song for you. SP: Oh my goodness! I didn't know that. FNS: Yes, in French, it's called "Du rouge ŕ lčvres sur une cochonne" [Lipstick for an uninhibited girl] or if you prefer in English, Joe the Plumber, [sings] "It's his life, Joe the Plumber..." SP: Maybe she understands some of the unfair criticism but I bet you she is such a hard worker, too, and she realizes you just plow through that criticism like FNS: I just want to be sure, I don't quite understand the phenomenon "Joe the Plumber," that's not your husband, right? SP: Mm-hmm, that's not my husband but he's a normal American who just works hard and doesn't want government to take his money. FNS: Yes, yes, I understand, we have the equivalent of Joe the Plumber in France, it's called, "Marcel, the guy with bread under his armpit, oui." SP: Right. That's what it's all about, is the middle class, and government needing to work for them. You're a very good example for us here. FNS: I seen a bit about NBC even Fox News wasn't an ally, an ally, sorry, about as much as usual. SP: Yeah that's what we're up against. FNS: I must say, Governor Palin, I love the documentary they made on your life, you know, Hustler's "Nailin Palin." SP: Oh, good, thank you. Yes. FNS: That was really edgy. SP: [laugh] Well good. FNS: I really love you. And I must say something, so, Governor, you've been pranked. By the Master Avengers. We're two comedians from Montreal SP: Oohhh have we been pranked? And what radio station is this? FNS: This is for CKOI in Montreal. SP: In Montreal? Tell me the radio station call letters [muttering in background] MA: Hello? If one voice can change the world for Obama, one Viagra can change the world for McCain. Assistant: Hi, I'm sorry, I have to let you go. Um, thank you. Artice (you can hear the prank call here as well) |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| BeatleBarb | Nov 2 2008, 12:55 AM Post #3371 |
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Andy - seems the audio has been removed.....gosh, darn it. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Nov 2 2008, 01:12 AM Post #3372 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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It's still working for me - it's the little YouTube screen at the bottom of the transcription - just click on that. ![]() |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Bag O' Nails | Nov 2 2008, 01:17 AM Post #3373 |
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MaccaMomma
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I'm sure you won't be alone. But know that many of us won't if O wins. We'll have to grin and bear it like you all did when your candidate didn't win.
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| Bag O' Nails | Nov 2 2008, 01:20 AM Post #3374 |
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MaccaMomma
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Why point out you're not young? Both candidates have people of all ages at their rallies. What's your point about your "racist parents" are voting for O?
Edited by Bag O' Nails, Nov 2 2008, 01:21 AM.
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| BeatleBarb | Nov 2 2008, 01:21 AM Post #3375 |
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Got it this time, Andy. I really can't believe that she wasn't on to that. Wow. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Nov 2 2008, 01:24 AM Post #3376 |
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MaccaMomma
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Andy, What's the purpose of posting this?
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| BeatleBarb | Nov 2 2008, 01:30 AM Post #3377 |
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Pranks...in the spirit of Halloween I would suppose. Somewhat revealing. |
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| Bill | Nov 2 2008, 01:32 AM Post #3378 |
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I don't like crank calls, I don't think they're clever, but I did get a giggle out of this bit:
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| Bag O' Nails | Nov 2 2008, 01:36 AM Post #3379 |
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MaccaMomma
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I can laugh at a good prank myself but this was an obvious attempt to once again dis her. It's getting old. The fact that they were even able to get through to her makes me wonder if it's real or not.... |
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| BeatleBarb | Nov 2 2008, 01:39 AM Post #3380 |
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Yeah, I wondered if it was even real, but there were funny parts to it. I'm sure it was to make fun of her - that's the nature of prank calls. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Nov 2 2008, 01:50 AM Post #3381 |
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MaccaMomma
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Did some hunting around the web and it seems like a legit story. Amazing how they got through to her! I wonder if her call screener still has a job... "The Masked Avengers, who have a regular show on Montreal radio station CKOI, intend to air the full interview on the eve of the U.S. elections. The well-known duo of Sebastien Trudel and Marc-Antoine Audette have also tricked Rolling Stones singer Mick Jagger, Microsoft founder Bill Gates and French president Jacques Chirac." More to add to all the political satire the night of the elections....guess we have to watch something while we're blowing into our paper bags!
Edited by Bag O' Nails, Nov 2 2008, 01:51 AM.
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| Bill | Nov 2 2008, 01:55 AM Post #3382 |
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I wondered about that too. But no-one has ever accused the McCain/Palin campaign of being competent. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Nov 2 2008, 01:56 AM Post #3383 |
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MaccaMomma
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Oh, Cathy & Linda....was at the mall today and saw my first Obama teeshirt! I chuckled as I passed the kid wearing it....for more than one reason!
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| ThirdHarmony | Nov 2 2008, 01:58 AM Post #3384 |
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I'm beginning to realize this paper bag thing is bigger than I originally thought. Perhaps we can get a mass discount?You know, I just read that British comedian Stephen Fry is currently filming a documentary on a small island off the coast of Madagascar (Yes, Last Chance To See revisited, for those who made the connection), with practically no contact with the outside world in the meantime. He wrote an entry on his webpage stating that the US presidential race will probably be decided when he gets internet access again. I'm actually quite envious. |
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"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson "Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. | |
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| Bill | Nov 2 2008, 02:01 AM Post #3385 |
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Yes, it's The Onion. http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/struggling_lower_class?utm_source=onion_rss_daily |
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| Deleted User | Nov 2 2008, 02:02 AM Post #3386 |
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Deleted User
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Sarah Palin Prank Call with 'Nicolas Sarkozy' |
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| Bag O' Nails | Nov 2 2008, 02:05 AM Post #3387 |
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MaccaMomma
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I've been pondering some things about the election today...I'm wondering.... 1. Are the polls correct and there will be a clear Obama victory? 2. How accurate are the polls? Are they really inclusive of all voters? 3. Just how biased is the media? Are they just reporting a clear Obama victory in an effort to discourage McCain voters from coming out to vote? 4. Will the vote be so close that it will go on for several days after the election before a winner is declared? 5. Despite the results, will it be contested by either candidate? 6. Will there be riots? 7. Just how many people will actually be moving to Canada? Getting my paper bag ready....
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| Bag O' Nails | Nov 2 2008, 02:06 AM Post #3388 |
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MaccaMomma
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You're a little late. Andy beat you to the punch. Kudos for trying, though.
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| Deleted User | Nov 2 2008, 02:09 AM Post #3389 |
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Deleted User
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I was watching football and hadn't refreshed the page, but still it's nice to see a YouTube video featuring polar bears and baby seals, while the voice over discusses killing them...
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| Bill | Nov 2 2008, 02:12 AM Post #3390 |
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If there were any hidden agenda in reporting Obama ahead in the polls, it would benefit McCain because it would energise his supporters and make Obama supporters complacent. That's if you believe people on either side would be that dumb. There's only one poll that's inclusive of all voters. It's called an election. Mind you, even then, they don't necessarily reflect the will of the people. There will only be riots if the people who called out "terrorist" and "kill him" have a problem with the outcome and make good on their threats. Patriots or traitors? |
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| BeatleBarb | Nov 2 2008, 02:15 AM Post #3391 |
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Yeah, nice touch there. Couldn't believe she said "thank you" to the porn movie comment and no hesitation regarding the bad Franch accent. Then, there's the joyful response to the killing animals question.
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| Bill | Nov 2 2008, 02:22 AM Post #3392 |
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Well, let's be fair. It was just a voice on the phone. It was handed to her by a staffer (probably a former staffer now) who probably didn't know any better and being the time of year, it was probably a pretty chaotic situation. The one thing I found curious was that she went straight to calling him Nicholas. I would have thought that Monsieur le President might have been more appropriate. Edited by Bill, Nov 2 2008, 02:22 AM.
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| BeatleBarb | Nov 2 2008, 02:25 AM Post #3393 |
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I thought there were plenty of opportunites for her to catch on, but she didn't. |
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| Bill | Nov 2 2008, 02:27 AM Post #3394 |
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I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt that she was being polite when she couldn't hear properly. Fair's fair. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Nov 2 2008, 02:34 AM Post #3395 |
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MaccaMomma
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Kudos to you, Bill. She did seem to nervously laugh when he would make comments that were weird. I still wonder if her screener has a job anymore.... Let's not forget that these comedians were also able to "trick" other famous people...they obviously are good at what they do! I'm still waiting to hear in the days ahead IF the voice was truly Sarah Palin....
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| Mindy | Nov 2 2008, 03:06 AM Post #3396 |
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I think both McCain and Obama have a good chance of winning the election. I don't think either will win by a landslide. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 2 2008, 03:07 AM Post #3397 |
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Deleted User
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Palin takes prank call from fake French president By CHARMAINE NORONHA – 41 minutes ago Associated Press TORONTO (AP) — Sarah Palin unwittingly took a prank call Saturday from a Canadian comedian posing as French President Nicolas Sarkozy and telling her she would make a good president someday. "Maybe in eight years," replies a laughing Palin. The Republican vice presidential nominee discusses politics, the perils of hunting with Vice President Dick Cheney, and Sarkozy's "beautiful wife," in a recording of the six-minute call released Saturday and set to air Monday on a Quebec radio station. Palin campaign spokeswoman Tracey Schmitt confirmed she had received the prank call. "Governor Palin was mildly amused to learn that she had joined the ranks of heads of state, including President Sarkozy and other celebrities, in being targeted by these pranksters. C'est la vie," she said. The call was made by a well-known Montreal comedy duo Marc-Antoine Audette and Sebastien Trudel. Known as the Masked Avengers, the two are notorious for prank calls to celebrities and heads of state. Audette, posing as Sarkozy, speaks in an exaggerated French accent and drops ample hints that the conversation is a joke. But Palin seemingly does not pick up on them. He tells Palin one of his favorite pastimes is hunting, also a passion of the 44-year-old Alaska governor. "I just love killing those animals. Mmm, mmm, take away life, that is so fun," the fake Sarkozy says. He proposes they go hunting together by helicopter, something he says he has never done. "Well, I think we could have a lot of fun together while we're getting work done," Palin counters. "We can kill two birds with one stone that way." The comedian jokes that they shouldn't bring Cheney along on the hunt, referring to the 2006 incident in which the vice-president shot and injured a friend while hunting quail. "I'll be a careful shot," responds Palin. Playing off the governor's much-mocked comment in an early television interview that she had insights into foreign policy because "you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska," the caller tells her: "You know we have a lot in common also, because ... from my house I can see Belgium." She replies: "Well, see, we're right next door to different countries that we all need to be working with, yes." When Audette refers to Canadian singer Steph Carse as Canada's prime minister, Palin replies: "Well, he's doing fine and yeah, when you come into a position underestimated it gives you an opportunity to prove the pundits and the critics wrong. You work that much harder." Canada's prime minister is Stephen Harper. Palin praises Sarkozy throughout the call and also mentions his wife Carla Bruni, a model-turned-songwriter. "You know, I look forward to working with you and getting to meet you personally and your beautiful wife," Palin says. "Oh my goodness, you've added a lot of energy to your country with that beautiful family of yours." The Sarkozy impersonator tells Palin his wife is "so hot in bed" and then informs her that Bruni has written a song for her about Joe the Plumber entitled "Du rouge a levres sur une cochonne" — which translates as "Lipstick on a Pig." Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama derided his Republican challenger John McCain's call for change in Washington as "lipstick on a pig," days after Palin made a lipstick joke at the Republican convention. The McCain-Palin campaign then released an ad implying Obama was calling Palin a pig with that remark. The caller asks Palin if Joe the Plumber is her husband and adds: "We have the equivalent of Joe the Plumber in France. It's called Marcel, the guy with bread under his armpit." He also tells the Alaska governor that he loved the "documentary" made about her and referred to a pornographic film with a Palin look-alike made by Hustler founder Larry Flynt. She answers tentatively, "Ohh, good, thank you, yes." The callers then reveal the prank and identify themselves and their radio station. "Ohhh, have we been pranked?" Palin asks before handing the phone to an aide who ends the call. Obama's campaign spokesman Robert Gibbs, commenting on the prank, said: "I'm glad we check out our calls before we hand the phone to Barack Obama." |
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| Bill | Nov 2 2008, 03:16 AM Post #3398 |
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Well, who needs crank calls when you've got Palin on "Ok, we're confident that we're going to win on Tuesday so from there, those first 100 days, how we're going to kick in the plan that will get this economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies that we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars..." Is America at war with Iran now? Did I miss a meeting? |
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| BeatleBarb | Nov 2 2008, 03:53 AM Post #3399 |
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Oh, crimany - I'm going for more pizza. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 2 2008, 04:14 AM Post #3400 |
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Deleted User
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I'll drink to that!
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) there are people who would vote Republican even if Forghorn Leghorn were the candidate, just as there are people who would vote for Daffy Duck if he were on the Democratic ticket.

Amazing how they got through to her! I wonder if her call screener still has a job...
She did seem to nervously laugh when he would make comments that were weird. I still wonder if her screener has a job anymore....

2:01 PM Jul 11