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2008 U.S. Presidential Election
Topic Started: Feb 22 2007, 05:49 AM (37,416 Views)
beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
This is kind of funny now: Joe the Plumber is not licensed.

Joe the Plumber throws a wrench into tax debate

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'Joe the Plumber' says he has no plumbing license

By JOHN SEEWER, Associated Press Writer


Joe the Plumber said Thursday he doesn't have a license and doesn't need one. Joe Wurzelbacher, better known as Joe the Plumber, the nickname Republican John McCain bestowed on him during Wednesday's presidential debate, said he works for a small plumbing company that does residential work. Because he works for someone else, he doesn't need a license, he said.

But the county Wurzelbacher and his employer live in, Lucas County, requires plumbers to have licenses. Neither Wurzelbacher nor his employer are licensed there, said Cheryl Schimming of Lucas County Building Regulations, which handles plumber licenses in parts of the county outside Toledo.

Wurzelbacher, who voted in the Republican primary and indicated he backed McCain, was cited by the GOP presidential candidate as an example of someone who wants to buy a plumbing business but would be hurt by Democrat Barack Obama's tax plans. Wurzelbacher said he was surprised that his name was mentioned so many other times.

"That bothered me. I wished that they had talked more about issues that are important to Americans," he told reporters gathered outside his home.

Wurzelbacher, 34, said he doesn't have a good plan put together on how he would buy Newell Plumbing and Heating in nearby Toledo.

He said the business consists of owner Al Newell and him. Wurzelbacher said he's worked there for six years and that the two have talked about his taking it over at some point.

"There's a lot I've got to learn," he said.

Wurzelbacher said he started his day with an early morning workout and came back to his suburban Toledo home to do live interviews with TV networks.

Reporters camped out by his house overnight and by midmorning there were 21 people on his driveway surrounding him, holding cameras and notebooks.

Wurzelbacher said he's feeling overwhelmed.

"I'm kind of like Britney Spears having a headache. Everybody wants to know about it," he joked.

In Toledo on Sunday, Wurzelbacher told Obama that he was preparing to buy the plumbing company, which earns more than $250,000 a year, and said: "Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn't it?"

Obama said that under his proposal taxes on any revenue from $250,000 on down would stay the same, but that amounts above that level would be subject to a 39 percent tax, instead of the current 36 percent rate.

Wurzelbacher said Obama's tax plan wouldn't affect him right now, because he doesn't make $250,000. "But I hope someday I'll make that," he said.

"If you believed (Obama), I'd be receiving his tax cuts," Wurzelbacher said. "But I don't look at it that way. He'd still be hurting others."

As he leaned against the Dodge Durango SUV parked in his driveway Thursday morning, Wurzelbacher indicated to reporters who crowded around that he was a conservative, a fan of the military and McCain. He said meeting McCain would be an honor but said he hadn't been contacted by the Republican campaign.

Still, the plumber wouldn't say who he was voting for and brushed off a question about whether he could influence the election or other voters.

"I don't have a lot of pull. It's not like I'm Matt Damon," Wurzelbacher said.

"I just hope I'm not making too much of a fool of myself," he added.

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otlset

The issue is not "Joe the plumber."

The issue is "spread the wealth."

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Jacaranda
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Nice concept in an ideal world.
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"If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through." General Melchett, Blackadder Goes Forth




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Bill
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Monkey Chow
Oct 16 2008, 03:00 PM
Sure, if you change the Constitution which I expect will be next.
If the Bush administration has taught us anything, it's that the US constitution is not the impediment that some would like to think it is.
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Bill
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otlset
Oct 16 2008, 08:11 PM
"Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."

--John Fitzgerald Kennedy

A famous line from a beloved president.

I will ask each of you now about the sentiments here in regard to the current election. Which party today reflects the above sentiment more in their aims and promises to the electorate? Think about it carefully.
I agree.

Think about it next time you whinge about having to pay taxes. Think about it the next time government asks YOU to make a contribution to the betterment of your country instead of everyone looking out for himself.

It's particularly ironic that the campaign running under the "Country First" slogan are saying to the people of that country, "We don't want anything from you, you just look after yourself," while the campaign that's giving people some straight-talk about everyone having to make a contribution to their nation are being accused of socialism.
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wackadoo
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otlset
Oct 16 2008, 08:11 PM
"Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."

--John Fitzgerald Kennedy

A famous line from a beloved president.

I will ask each of you now about the sentiments here in regard to the current election. Which party today reflects the above sentiment more in their aims and promises to the electorate? Think about it carefully.
Good question. Could you be talking about too much government? I know that isn't what Kennedy was referring to but I'm trying to think carefully as you said. Too much government is really just socialism, isn't it? I think that's where we are heading if Obama gets elected. I don't know about you but everything that seems to be government controlled is a mess...at least where I live.
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Jacaranda
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Mary Ann, do you mean everything controlled by the state government in California or federal government?
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wackadoo
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JeffLynnesBeard
Oct 16 2008, 03:04 PM
I'm all for a change to your constitution. That 'right to bear arms' antiquity, especially. ;)
Andy, I don't want someone to tell me I can't defend myself if I choose to. We have a lot of crime in Southern California and if someone wants to own a gun for protection, I don't want someone to say they can't. The criminals will always have guns whether we have guns or not. Too many government rules and regulations are going to take away our rights. Those freedoms are the draw for others to come to America.
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wackadoo
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beatlechick
Oct 16 2008, 04:10 AM
Thank you for that Lapis.

Now for the debate.

Anybody watch it? I had one ear on the debate and the other on the regrettable final game of the national league championships. Unfortunately my team lost but to me the game was more interesting.

What I saw was the McCain finally start to swing, only to hit with a thud. Finally there was some substance to this debate but other than that, it was okay.
I did, Cathy. I thougt it was the best of the 3 presidential debates. I think the VP debate was the best of all.

Hope you are well.
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wackadoo
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JeffLynnesBeard
Oct 15 2008, 04:05 PM
I think that a lot of people, generally (I'm not specifically talking about people here) are falling into the trap of the politics of personality and the issues are taking a back seat, which is - unfortunately - the way things tend to go a lot of the time. I know that Mrs. Palin wants this to happen, given her recent attempts at character assassination towards Senator Obama. She is evidently hoping that if she throws enough mud then some of it will stick, no matter how untrue or unfair. Seems to me like the desperation of a party which is seeing the Presidency slip further and further away from their grasp with each passing day.

Strange you mention Oprah, Mary Ann. As one of Obama's major financial supporters, she has probably paid for a large percentage of this 24-hour TV channel. I'm not sure that such a channel will be majorly effective, but at this stage of the election, any communication with the electorate through mass-media is worth a try. Personally, I'd feel the same way about a McCain channel as I do about Obama's - indifferent.

Dorothy - you say 'only in America great slander happens in politics'. You couldn't be more wrong, sadly.
I have a feeling that Oprah is financing his television statioan.

Andy, you must admit that Palin has had deal with a great deal of slander herself. She kept silent for a long time but can you really blame her for fighting back? I think the media has been completely unfair to her. It's one thing not to offer support but she has endured a LOT of hate. Madonna and Sarah Bernard are just 2 that come to mind.
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wackadoo
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Jacaranda
Oct 17 2008, 12:37 AM
Mary Ann, do you mean everything controlled by the state government in California or federal government?
Hi Lisa. I am mostly referring to state government in California because this is where I live.
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Bill
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How is it that Americans trust their government to run things as complex as national security, the economy, defence and law enforcement but not something as relatively simple as a health system.

Now sure, most of those things have been run terribly by the US government, but hey, look who you put in charge of it.

So you've got McCain and Palin admitting they would screw up a health system if they were in charge of it but they still want you to let them run the economy and national defence?

I'd vote for the ones with the plans and the competence.
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fab4fan
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:ponder: Nah! It couldn't be. :yes: :no:
Mnisthiti mou Kurie!
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ThirdHarmony
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It never ceases to amuse me whenever someone from the US conservative side of the aisle starts sputtering about "socialism" as descriptive of their opponent's fiscal policies.

On some level, for some generations at least, I suppose it is understandable if you've never witnessed the misery that results from actual socialist policy put into practice - but for those who have at least a basic knowledge of the realities of socialist and non-socialist politics in other countries, the simple game at hand - pandering to the ignorant - becomes glaringly obvious.

It is hilarious to see the amount of direct parallells that are made between the Democrats and socialists in Republican media around election time - especially considering how just about the entire American political spectrum Dem-to-GOP resides on the right side of the middle compared to countries whose political blocks actually entail some variant of socialism on the left side.

I put it to those who draw those parallells that they have not witnessed firsthand what political attempts to introduce socialism in otherwise democratic systems actually amount to. Such attempts, carried out by various socialist parties (which I oppose vigorously) are by far more controlling, market-damaging and Marxist than anything I have ever heard suggested by any leading American Democratic politician (and don't accuse me for not listening!). I live in one of the most tax-burdened countries on Earth, a sad fact that the current conservative administration (which I support) is desperately trying to remedy little by little (but with considerable difficulty due to the communist and socialist opposition parties in parliament, which are thankfully in a minority).

For the better (or worse) part of 70 years, the socialists goverened Sweden and instilled not only the economy (which for a while remained healthy for reasons to do with the rebuilding of Europe following WWII) with bloated and pointless government agencies and a crippling of the marketplace, but also with a generally grey psyche perpetuated by horrendous Soviet-style housing projects and a mentality that no-one is to be congratulated for individual success in life (the infamous so-called "Jante"-law). It was not a Soviet-style government - it was still a democracy, with freedom of speech and all - but it had the reddish tinge of socialist bureaucracy which still lingers in the minds of those clinging to the shattered remains of the former communist party. It was first around the time of the EU expansion in the late 80s that this old system started to fade away.

I work very hard to earn my keep as a small-business owner, and I pay my taxes - probably too much considering certain governmental agency waste. I do consider myself as part of the fiscally conservative (but socially liberal) side of the aisle - but I will say this: I do agree with paying for our national healthcare system and our educational system. I do loathe socialism and the horrors it has inflicted upon humanity (I will *never ever* forget what I saw as a child travelling with my parents through parts of Eastern Europe just around the fall of the Iron Curtain) - but the idea that specifically healthcare should only be provided to those who have succeeded in life is something that I will not adhere to. The idea that the pressure of the free market should rule ruthlessly on this level of society is something I find perverse. It would cause too much miserable crime-stricken slums of people with no realistic chance of ever managing to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps".
Edited by ThirdHarmony, Oct 17 2008, 01:17 AM.
"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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maccascruff
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wackadoo
Oct 17 2008, 12:43 AM


I think the VP debate was the best of all.

It was certainly the funniest of the debates and the most frightening all at the same time.
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
I'm watching McCain and Obama at a charity event in NY. They are doing comedy. I think both of done it quite well. McCain joking about his seven houses. Obama joking about the person who gave him his middle name must not have thought that he would run for president someday.

It's nice to see them acting silly and ending on a serious note.
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Bill
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Yet another excellent post Third.

You're right. Anyone who thinks a national health insurance system is going to turn the country into East Germany really needs to get some perspective.

Most of us in the rest of the free world have government run health systems and we haven't succumbed to the red menace yet. Are our systems perfect? Not at all. Better than the US version? Yer darn right!
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maccascruff
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Bill
Oct 17 2008, 01:45 AM
Yer darn right!
:whistle: And you betcha'
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Bill
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beatlechick
Oct 16 2008, 09:48 PM
This is kind of funny now: Joe the Plumber is not licensed.

Joe the Plumber throws a wrench into tax debate

It gets worse,

http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/

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Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.
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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
Bill
Oct 17 2008, 02:29 AM
beatlechick
Oct 16 2008, 09:48 PM
This is kind of funny now: Joe the Plumber is not licensed.

Joe the Plumber throws a wrench into tax debate

It gets worse,

http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/

Quote:
 

Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.
Poor guy! :pinch:
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Bill
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So while Republicans are gushing over the "spread the wealth" comment (and I'm sure Obama's way of spreading the wealth is by spreading the opportunity), it turns out the expression was elicited by someone who has no concrete plans to buy the business is only one degree of separation from one of McCain's most embarrassing political moments.

Now, does anyone want to go crying about "gotcha" questions now? :lol:
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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
Here is another match your President game. It was fun and with all but 2 questions (one I knew was a McCain statement but I agreed with it just the same) shows that overwhelmingly I support Obama.

Be truthful and tell us who your pick was.

http://abcnews.go.com/politics/MatchoMatic/fullpage?id=5542139
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BeatleBarb
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Excellent post, Third Harmony.

I can't for the life of me, understand why so many Americans freak out at the thought of national healthcare and education systems. It hasn't been working the way it's been, so why not?

We bail out other systems, why not healthcare - especially since it is the major source of bankruptcy for affected families.
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Mindy
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beatlechick
Oct 17 2008, 03:14 AM
Here is another match your President game. It was fun and with all but 2 questions (one I knew was a McCain statement but I agreed with it just the same) shows that overwhelmingly I support Obama.

Be truthful and tell us who your pick was.

http://abcnews.go.com/politics/MatchoMatic/fullpage?id=5542139
I took the quiz. I agreed with Obama on 8 and McCain on 5. I was surprised that I agreed completely with McCain on immigration.

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BeatleBarb
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Took the quiz. Overwhelmingly Obama. Did agree with McCain on 1 issue.
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Dorfliedot
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Beatlelicious
Can we vote on looks? :P
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HollyGolightly
Oct 17 2008, 04:26 AM
beatlechick
Oct 17 2008, 03:14 AM
Here is another match your President game. It was fun and with all but 2 questions (one I knew was a McCain statement but I agreed with it just the same) shows that overwhelmingly I support Obama.

Be truthful and tell us who your pick was.

http://abcnews.go.com/politics/MatchoMatic/fullpage?id=5542139
I took the quiz. I agreed with Obama on 8 and McCain on 5. I was surprised that I agreed completely with McCain on immigration.

I agreed with Obama on 11 and McCain on 2. Who knew McCain was so much in favor of middle income tax cuts?
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scottycatt
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wackadoo
Oct 17 2008, 12:40 AM
JeffLynnesBeard
Oct 16 2008, 03:04 PM
I'm all for a change to your constitution. That 'right to bear arms' antiquity, especially. ;)
Andy, I don't want someone to tell me I can't defend myself if I choose to. We have a lot of crime in Southern California and if someone wants to own a gun for protection, I don't want someone to say they can't. The criminals will always have guns whether we have guns or not. Too many government rules and regulations are going to take away our rights. Those freedoms are the draw for others to come to America.
I always find it ironic and contradictory that some people shout "big government" and "keep out" when it comes issues such as guns, taxes and health care, but if a woman gets pregnant, she must dance to the tune of Big Brother. :wacko: :angry:


I am unapologetically in favor of -- always have been and always will be -- a woman's right to choose. If men were the ones to bear the burden of pregnancy, this wouldn't even be up for discussion. :roll:

I don't care who does or does NOT agree with me on this. I feel strongly about this and I could NEVER support any candidate who would stand in opposition to the right of a woman to determine what she does or doesn't do with her body. -_-




Why?
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BeatleBarb
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I totally agree, Bev. I could not support such a candidate either. I could compromise on other issues, but not this one. It is simply too personal.
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fab4fan
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Two great men who lead by example. I hope everyone who has followed this thread will watch these clips, especially those of you who observe our process from overseas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Goaj5V4tZoc (McCain video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrqoSyKsAPw (part 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXKaAQ-6BiU (Obama video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkBQf4FJi-o (part 2)
Mnisthiti mou Kurie!
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beatlechick
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BeatleBarb
Oct 17 2008, 06:21 AM
I totally agree, Bev. I could not support such a candidate either. I could compromise on other issues, but not this one. It is simply too personal.
For me it is that and gun control. If you are an NRA member, and a gunfreak, you should not expect my vote. BTW, I have known some NRA members that were actually pretty cool, didn't go around espousing prying their guns from their cold dead hands, and hated what the NRA has become.
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scottycatt
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I took the test. I think Lapis and I had the same score. I agree -- who knew McCain was all about middle-class tax cuts? :unsure:


John, I watched the dinner as it was happening. It was shown live on Larry King Live. I have to say that I found John McCain absolutely charming and funny. Here was the John McCain I remember. It's a shame this version of McCain has been MIA during most of this campaign.

Just my opinion, but I think if McCain in this incarnation had been present on the campaign trail over the last couple of months, I think we would be heading into November 4th unsure of the outcome. ;)

.
Edited by scottycatt, Oct 17 2008, 09:28 AM.




Why?
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Bill
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I couldn't agree more, Bev! :yes:
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scottycatt
Oct 17 2008, 05:55 AM
I feel strongly about this and I could NEVER support any candidate who would stand in opposition to the right of a woman to determine what she does or doesn't do with her body. -_-
WOW!!!



It would be a retrograde decision to vote for a candidate who wants to take women right to choose what to do with her body away.



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Monkey Chow
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
How about the baby's right to choose?
Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey.
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wackadoo
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maccascruff
Oct 17 2008, 01:47 AM
Bill
Oct 17 2008, 01:45 AM
Yer darn right!
:whistle: And you betcha'
You may not agree with a candidate, but making fun of her way of talking is a cheap shot. In all parts of the United States, we have people with diverse accents, folksy type characteristics in their speech, phrases like 'you betcha,' 'y'all,' 'red-up,' to name such a few of many phrases. I grew up in Pennsylvania and graduated from college in the South, and visited a good friend in the midwest regularly, and I actually learned to appreciate all the varied ways people speak in the different parts of the country. It doesn't take away from their intelligence. To make fun of Palin, is like making fun of millions of people in my country.
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maccascruff
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I agreed with Obama on all except 1 issue. No surprise.
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wackadoo
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Monkey Chow
Oct 17 2008, 02:58 PM
How about the baby's right to choose?
I agree. It's not the innocent baby who should pay the price for someone else's irresponsibility. I do agree with the abortion pill that could be taken immediately after a rape or some other tramatic experience a woman has been through.
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Bill
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wackadoo
Oct 17 2008, 03:00 PM
maccascruff
Oct 17 2008, 01:47 AM
Bill
Oct 17 2008, 01:45 AM
Yer darn right!
:whistle: And you betcha'
You may not agree with a candidate, but making fun of her way of talking is a cheap shot. In all parts of the United States, we have people with diverse accents, folksy type characteristics in their speech, phrases like 'you betcha,' 'y'all,' 'red-up,' to name such a few of many phrases. I grew up in Pennsylvania and graduated from college in the South, and visited a good friend in the midwest regularly, and I actually learned to appreciate all the varied ways people speak in the different parts of the country. It doesn't take away from their intelligence. To make fun of Palin, is like making fun of millions of people in my country.
In what way was I making fun of her intelligence by saying that?

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Monkey Chow
Oct 17 2008, 02:58 PM
How about the baby's right to choose?
In my country abortion is a crime and it's hell. Women make abortion in clinics where people aren't doctors, they take medicines to abort etc. Many die, many have health problems like womb tumor because Hospitals can't make abortion.

There is sexual education at schools, any hospital give condoms and pills and teach people how to use them but many poor women get pregnant and try to abort. Others try to abort because they were raped.

When I was working at a Psychiatry hospital there was a case of a 10 years old who got raped by her dad and she was 5 months pregnant and the judge didn't allow her to make an abortion BECAUSE her health was good and her baby was healthy too and detail : HE WAS CATHOLIC. :roll: PHYSICALLY she was ok. EMOTIONALLY she was devasted, she lost her identity, she was 10 years old but she would be a mother in few months. Her dad died in jail and her mother was desperated trying to give her daughter what she didn't have: emotional structure.

This girl was in treatment with my professor and we, some few students, followed the case. I tried to talk to her, to get closer, to understand and to study her but she was closed and she didn't look into anybodys' eyes.

Do you think the baby of this child will have a good life? What about baby's choice? Do you think a baby want to have a miserable life, a mother with serious emotional problems who won't be able to give him what he needs? One day this baby will grow up and will yell at his depressed mother: Why didn't you abort me? Why do I have to live this crap life without opportunities, job, education?


There are 2 ways of killing a human. Killing, literally or don't giving the human emotional and familiar base = opportunity.

The baby of a child NEVER have emotional structure and that's not good. We aren't rats, we don't have to give birth like rats, we don't have to live like rats. A life must be planned.

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Adilah
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beatlechick
Oct 17 2008, 03:14 AM
Many of these statements were irrelevant to me. It said I should vote for Mr. McCain, 6 to 5.

http://www.blogthings.com/shouldyouvoteformccainorobamaquiz/
"We call 10 American deaths a catastrophe. One hundred European deaths are a tragedy. One thousand Asian deaths are a shame. And 10,000 African deaths we call a Monday." - Lissa (1981-2007) ÇáÓáÇã Úáíßã æÑÍãÉ Çááå æÈÑßÇÊå
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scottycatt
Oct 17 2008, 05:55 AM
wackadoo
Oct 17 2008, 12:40 AM
JeffLynnesBeard
Oct 16 2008, 03:04 PM
I'm all for a change to your constitution. That 'right to bear arms' antiquity, especially. ;)
Andy, I don't want someone to tell me I can't defend myself if I choose to. We have a lot of crime in Southern California and if someone wants to own a gun for protection, I don't want someone to say they can't. The criminals will always have guns whether we have guns or not. Too many government rules and regulations are going to take away our rights. Those freedoms are the draw for others to come to America.
I always find it ironic and contradictory that some people shout "big government" and "keep out" when it comes issues such as guns, taxes and health care, but if a woman gets pregnant, she must dance to the tune of Big Brother. :wacko: :angry:


I am unapologetically in favor of -- always have been and always will be -- a woman's right to choose. If men were the ones to bear the burden of pregnancy, this wouldn't even be up for discussion. :roll:

I don't care who does or does NOT agree with me on this. I feel strongly about this and I could NEVER support any candidate who would stand in opposition to the right of a woman to determine what she does or doesn't do with her body. -_-
I agree, but I am also kind of glad that this election does not hinge upon this single issue.
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Mindy
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Adilah
Oct 17 2008, 04:09 PM
beatlechick
Oct 17 2008, 03:14 AM
Many of these statements were irrelevant to me. It said I should vote for Mr. McCain, 6 to 5.

http://www.blogthings.com/shouldyouvoteformccainorobamaquiz/
I took the second quiz, and I'm 72% Obama, 28% McCain.

You know, political differences aside, I think we can all agree that we all just want what is best for our country. The problem is we all have different ideas as to what is best, and how to go about it.

I don't entirely disagree with McCain, but I disagree mostly on everything with Palin. I don't think she's a complete idiot, but from what I have seen of her, I don't have confidence in her as potentially the next President. I'm not entirely confident in Joe Biden, either, but moreso than her.

I just hope whoever is elected will make the right decisions.
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If I made $250,000 a year or more and was in perfect health with all of my children in private schools, I would be much more inclined to vote for McCain, except for the fact that he chose an unqualified Vice Presidential candidate with extreme religious views.
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LapisLee
Oct 17 2008, 05:29 PM
If I made $250,000 a year or more and was in perfect health with all of my children in private schools, I would be much more inclined to vote for McCain...
Well said.
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Adilah
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On the subject of being comfortable with names, John Sydney McCain is far more foreign to me than Barack Hussein Obama.
"We call 10 American deaths a catastrophe. One hundred European deaths are a tragedy. One thousand Asian deaths are a shame. And 10,000 African deaths we call a Monday." - Lissa (1981-2007) ÇáÓáÇã Úáíßã æÑÍãÉ Çááå æÈÑßÇÊå
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Mindy
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I think this is a very powerful video by will.i am of the Black Eyed Peas. It doesn't bash anyone, it just calls for change, and suggests we are not as divided as we seem

Yes We Can
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otlset

I felt a tingle down my leg.

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otlset

Bill
Oct 17 2008, 12:30 AM
I agree.

Think about it next time you whinge about having to pay taxes.
It's not so much paying taxes that makes me whinge, but seeing the money go down the toilet of an out of control government bureaucracy.

I pay taxes without fail and complaint, respect the laws of the land, and try to treat others according to the 'golden rule'. This is what I do for my country.

I only ask in return of my country that it protect me, and provide infrastructure and emergency services to maintain the commonwealth for all.

I remember when I first enlisted in the Air Force, a sergeant said to our flight: "For the next four years you will experience socialism first hand. Remember the experience when you return to the democracy of civilian life after your tour of duty!"

And I have. I recall vividly having to routinely work much longer hours as a surgical prep/tech/medic than the guys from the photographic squadron, for example, who worked a half-day at not doing much, then took the rest of the day off. Yet these guys were the same rank as I was, and earned the same pay.

And I can't begin to describe the countless occasions, even in my own squadron, where lazy dudes hid out, sloughed off work, and basically did whatever they could to be unproductive (it seemed to me, busy as I was). And in this socialistic environment of the US military, those goldbricks also earned the same as me. After all, why should THEY work hard, if they didn't have to? Yes, I remember my experiences with socialism.

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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
Adilah
Oct 17 2008, 04:09 PM
beatlechick
Oct 17 2008, 03:14 AM
Many of these statements were irrelevant to me. It said I should vote for Mr. McCain, 6 to 5.

http://www.blogthings.com/shouldyouvoteformccainorobamaquiz/
Your Issue Profile: 84% Obama, 16% McCain

Posted Image

When it comes to the issues, you agree with Obama on almost everything.
Surprised? Probably not. You've had your eye on Obama for a while.

In fact, you're likely already a strong Obama supporter.
You know where your vote is going this November.

Should You Vote for Obama or McCain?
Not a surprise here.
Posted Image Posted Image
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otlset

wackadoo
Oct 17 2008, 12:34 AM
Could you be talking about too much government?
Possibly.

I've heard that (in general) Democrats want the government to help them more, and that Republicans want the government to "help" them less.

But more pointedly, expectations of exactly what the purpose of government is.

As usual, the answer is somewhere in the middle. That is, we need government for all the infrastructure and rules and regulations that protect us. But not TOO much government where all the rules and regulations and infrastructure begin to hinder and hamstring governmental efficiency. And as popular wisdom goes, the bigger the government, the less the efficiency. Until it gets down to a gigantic, money-gulping, bureaucratic mess that accomplishes little.

But we'll see. If Obama is elected, along with Democratic majorities in the House and Senate, we'll see much I think.


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beatlechick
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HollyGolightly
Oct 17 2008, 05:36 PM
I think this is a very powerful video by will.i am of the Black Eyed Peas. It doesn't bash anyone, it just calls for change, and suggests we are not as divided as we seem

Yes We Can
Beautiful. Brought tears to my eyes. Here's another one by will.i.am

We Are the Ones Song
Posted Image Posted Image
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otlset

ThirdHarmony
Oct 17 2008, 01:13 AM
It never ceases to amuse me whenever someone from the US conservative side of the aisle starts sputtering about "socialism" as descriptive of their opponent's fiscal policies.

On some level, for some generations at least, I suppose it is understandable if you've never witnessed the misery that results from actual socialist policy put into practice - but for those who have at least a basic knowledge of the realities of socialist and non-socialist politics in other countries, the simple game at hand - pandering to the ignorant - becomes glaringly obvious.

It is hilarious to see the amount of direct parallells that are made between the Democrats and socialists in Republican media around election time - especially considering how just about the entire American political spectrum Dem-to-GOP resides on the right side of the middle compared to countries whose political blocks actually entail some variant of socialism on the left side.

I put it to those who draw those parallells that they have not witnessed firsthand what political attempts to introduce socialism in otherwise democratic systems actually amount to. Such attempts, carried out by various socialist parties (which I oppose vigorously) are by far more controlling, market-damaging and Marxist than anything I have ever heard suggested by any leading American Democratic politician (and don't accuse me for not listening!). I live in one of the most tax-burdened countries on Earth, a sad fact that the current conservative administration (which I support) is desperately trying to remedy little by little (but with considerable difficulty due to the communist and socialist opposition parties in parliament, which are thankfully in a minority).

For the better (or worse) part of 70 years, the socialists goverened Sweden and instilled not only the economy (which for a while remained healthy for reasons to do with the rebuilding of Europe following WWII) with bloated and pointless government agencies and a crippling of the marketplace, but also with a generally grey psyche perpetuated by horrendous Soviet-style housing projects and a mentality that no-one is to be congratulated for individual success in life (the infamous so-called "Jante"-law).
Well, when I sputter about "socialism", my intent is to keep it at bay in our governmental system, recognizing the dangers of it you very nicely reveal in the body of your post.

By the way, in your signature at the bottom the Adlai Stevenson quote gives me solace here.

Tell 'em Adlai, you crazy liberal!

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otlset

Bill
Oct 17 2008, 01:45 AM
Better than the US version? Yer darn right!
Yet I hear of those from countries with such healthcare systems nevertheless flock to the US for healthcare, if given the chance.

Why come here to pay for it when it's free at home? I mean besides the four week wait to see a physician?

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otlset

Bill
Oct 17 2008, 03:07 AM
So while Republicans are gushing over the "spread the wealth" comment (and I'm sure Obama's way of spreading the wealth is by spreading the opportunity)...
40% of American citizens pay no income taxes. It's quite an opportunity for them all right.

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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
otlset
Oct 17 2008, 09:55 PM
Bill
Oct 17 2008, 01:45 AM
Better than the US version? Yer darn right!
Yet I hear of those from countries with such healthcare systems nevertheless flock to the US for healthcare, if given the chance.

Why come here to pay for it when it's free at home? I mean besides the four week wait to see a physician?
Normally it's because we fly them here with free room and board. But then again, why is it that Americans would rather risk their lives and go to Mexico for the prescription drugs that are the same we could get in the States yet pay much much less in Mexico? Why are Americans going to Canada for healthcare and prescription drugs there?
Posted Image Posted Image
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otlset

Dorothy
Oct 17 2008, 05:17 AM
Can we vote on looks? :P
If the geniuses on "The View" can, then so can you!

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otlset

Love Sculpture
Oct 17 2008, 03:42 PM
One day this baby will grow up and will yell at his depressed mother: Why didn't you abort me? Why do I have to live this crap life without opportunities, job, education?


Or on the other hand, he may one day thank her for giving him life that allowed him to work hard and persevere, and that perhaps allowed him to discover or produce something of immeasurable benefit to mankind, as well as himself and his mom.

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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
otlset
Oct 17 2008, 10:17 PM
Dorothy
Oct 17 2008, 05:17 AM
Can we vote on looks? :P
If the geniuses on "The View" can, then so can you!
Hey, I have always liked The View. When I am home I try to at least watch Hot Topics. Not a big Elisabeth fan but she can make some good points when she presents them right. I love Barbara and I love Whoopi but I go back to work next week so will not be able to watch it. I know you're sad for me. :giggle:
Posted Image Posted Image
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otlset

beatlechick
Oct 17 2008, 10:28 PM
I love Barbara and I love Whoopi but I go back to work next week so will not be able to watch it. I know you're sad for me. :giggle:
Oh dear! Whatever will you do without your daily dose of Whoopi Wisdom? :lol:
Edited by otlset, Oct 17 2008, 10:33 PM.

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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
Adilah
Oct 17 2008, 05:34 PM
On the subject of being comfortable with names, John Sydney McCain is far more foreign to me than Barack Hussein Obama.
Correct.
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otlset
Oct 17 2008, 10:26 PM
Love Sculpture
Oct 17 2008, 03:42 PM
One day this baby will grow up and will yell at his depressed mother: Why didn't you abort me? Why do I have to live this crap life without opportunities, job, education?


Or on the other hand, he may one day thank her for giving him life that allowed him to work hard and persevere, and that perhaps allowed him to discover or produce something of immeasurable benefit to mankind, as well as himself and his mom.
It sounds beautiful but it doesn't happen everyday.

"A man is a product of his environment." People will try to deny it, but it's true, in my opinion. We are what our parents made of us, there are very few exceptions, but in gerenal, this is how things work.




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Bill
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otlset
Oct 17 2008, 08:45 PM
Bill
Oct 17 2008, 12:30 AM
I agree.

Think about it next time you whinge about having to pay taxes.
It's not so much paying taxes that makes me whinge, but seeing the money go down the toilet of an out of control government bureaucracy.

I pay taxes without fail and complaint, respect the laws of the land, and try to treat others according to the 'golden rule'. This is what I do for my country.

I only ask in return of my country that it protect me, and provide infrastructure and emergency services to maintain the commonwealth for all.
Yet you're still voting Republican? How ironic!

Quote:
 


I remember when I first enlisted in the Air Force, a sergeant said to our flight: "For the next four years you will experience socialism first hand. Remember the experience when you return to the democracy of civilian life after your tour of duty!"

And I have. I recall vividly having to routinely work much longer hours as a surgical prep/tech/medic than the guys from the photographic squadron, for example, who worked a half-day at not doing much, then took the rest of the day off. Yet these guys were the same rank as I was, and earned the same pay.

And I can't begin to describe the countless occasions, even in my own squadron, where lazy dudes hid out, sloughed off work, and basically did whatever they could to be unproductive (it seemed to me, busy as I was). And in this socialistic environment of the US military, those goldbricks also earned the same as me. After all, why should THEY work hard, if they didn't have to? Yes, I remember my experiences with socialism.


So you're saying the troops are a bunch of lazy bums?*

If you seriously think that national health care and equal opportunities are going to lead to military socialism, then you need to learn a bit more about countries that already have the former - which is most of them



*For the record, I know you weren't, I just wanted to illustrate how easy it is to twist someone's words to mean something they didn't say. ;)
Put a puppet on it.
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Bill
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otlset
Oct 17 2008, 09:55 PM
Bill
Oct 17 2008, 01:45 AM
Better than the US version? Yer darn right!
Yet I hear of those from countries with such healthcare systems nevertheless flock to the US for healthcare, if given the chance.

Why come here to pay for it when it's free at home? I mean besides the four week wait to see a physician?
Can you give me examples? The Australian health care system takes in far more patients that it sends out. I think I can guess at some of the sources you "heard" that from, but I would wager two things:
1: They don't "flock" to the US with cases of the sniffles.
2: When a particular surgeon chooses to live in the Hollywood Hills, that means patients have to come to him.

I'd be curious to know how you feel about all these foreigners jumping ahead of American patients.
Put a puppet on it.
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ThirdHarmony
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"otlset"
 
Well, when I sputter about "socialism", my intent is to keep it at bay in our governmental system, recognizing the dangers of it you very nicely reveal in the body of your post.


Look, I am pretty much as free-market a person as they come. Back in college, I was the guy who was most likely to have a picture of Adam Smith in my dorm room (I decided against it, as it was the kind of thing that would make girls think I was more than slightly weird - and I had enough of that already with my Beatles obsession). That said, the part of my post which you excluded in your quote is something I consider quite a significant addendum to my political views. I'd be interested in hearing your views on it.

"otlset"
 
By the way, in your signature at the bottom the Adlai Stevenson quote gives me solace here.

Tell 'em Adlai, you crazy liberal!


That Adlai quote is something that has stuck with me for quite a while. While it is a reminder of the fact that you deserve a fair shake when it comes to expressing your views, it is also there to remind you that your opponents in whatever argument you are having deserve the same. As long as you don't cause harm and play fair with facts and maintain intellectual honesty, and that is required from everyone, you shouldn't have to fear exclusion. Unfortunately, our instincts may not always lead us in such directions, in which case it is critical to take a few steps back, splash some cold water on one's face, put an arm around the opponent's shoulder and go have a laugh about something less controversial.
Edited by ThirdHarmony, Oct 18 2008, 01:30 AM.
"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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Bill
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The Republican voter fraud hoax

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2008/oct/13/election-acorn-voter-fraud
Put a puppet on it.
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
Thanks for that article, Bill.
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
Your Issue Profile: 84% Obama, 16% McCain

Posted Image

When it comes to the issues, you agree with Obama on almost everything.
Surprised? Probably not. You've had your eye on Obama for a while.

In fact, you're likely already a strong Obama supporter.
You know where your vote is going this November.

Should You Vote for Obama or McCain?
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Mia Culpa
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otlset
Oct 16 2008, 08:11 PM
"Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."

--John Fitzgerald Kennedy

A famous line from a beloved president.

I will ask each of you now about the sentiments here in regard to the current election. Which party today reflects the above sentiment more in their aims and promises to the electorate? Think about it carefully.
I don't think either party really cares. They want power and they'll lie, cheat and steal their way into it. They manipulate and use the few who vote and get everybody to play this stupid tit-for-tat game with hypocrisy and insults. When the game's over it doesn't make much difference who won. The rich will get richer and the poor will stay poor. There will be invasions and wars. American television will get worse and worse.

What can you do for your country? Vote for independent candidates who don't owe their party anything. Democracy needs more than 2 choices.
If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead.
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Mia Culpa
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This space intentionally left blank.
Your Issue Profile: 48% Obama, 52% McCain

Posted Image

Truth be told, you're not really satisfied with either of the candidates.
You could vote for either of them. You are the typical coveted swing voter.

You may want to narrow yourself down to a particular set of issues in order to pick your president.
Or start looking at third party candidates. One of them might suit you better.

Should You Vote for Obama or McCain?


I've voted for candidates with Arabic names. I've never voted for somebody with an Irish name.
If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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wackadoo
Oct 17 2008, 12:40 AM
JeffLynnesBeard
Oct 16 2008, 03:04 PM
I'm all for a change to your constitution. That 'right to bear arms' antiquity, especially. ;)
Andy, I don't want someone to tell me I can't defend myself if I choose to. We have a lot of crime in Southern California and if someone wants to own a gun for protection, I don't want someone to say they can't. The criminals will always have guns whether we have guns or not. Too many government rules and regulations are going to take away our rights. Those freedoms are the draw for others to come to America.
Although this is a totally separate debate, I'd just like to respond to that with a couple of points;

Firstly, taking away the right to bear arms is completely different to allowing responsible people gun ownership. The fact that you have it in your constitution as a right of all American people means that it isn't always responsible people who are keeping guns hence the many, many school massacres your country sadly sees and the high level of gun crime.

Secondly, there are many countries who have gun control (such as the UK) and their incidences of gun crime, per capita, are much lower than the US. This suggests that the right to bear arms in the US leads to a much more violent society.

I'm not saying that nobody should be allowed to own a gun, but I am a strong advocate of rewriting or removing that particular amendment in the constitution. I think it will, eventually, make the US a safer place, which will make people such as yourselves feel less need to have to 'defend' themselves. It is never too late.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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wackadoo
Oct 17 2008, 12:48 AM
Andy, you must admit that Palin has had deal with a great deal of slander herself. She kept silent for a long time but can you really blame her for fighting back? I think the media has been completely unfair to her. It's one thing not to offer support but she has endured a LOT of hate. Madonna and Sarah Bernard are just 2 that come to mind.
I think that Palin has had to put up with some lies and distortions of the truth, certainly. However, some of the harsh criticisms that she has had to endure are based on her politics and, compared to the lies and hatred that Barack Obama has had spread about him, she is strictly amateur status.

I think that, while McCain is attempting to at least refute the outright lies and misconceptions people have about Barack, Sarah is doing more than her part to put fear into the minds of American people regarding Obama. Not a smart move really. You can't stoke the flames and then complain about the heat.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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ThirdHarmony
Oct 17 2008, 01:13 AM
It never ceases to amuse me whenever someone from the US conservative side of the aisle starts sputtering about "socialism" as descriptive of their opponent's fiscal policies.

On some level, for some generations at least, I suppose it is understandable if you've never witnessed the misery that results from actual socialist policy put into practice - but for those who have at least a basic knowledge of the realities of socialist and non-socialist politics in other countries, the simple game at hand - pandering to the ignorant - becomes glaringly obvious.

It is hilarious to see the amount of direct parallells that are made between the Democrats and socialists in Republican media around election time - especially considering how just about the entire American political spectrum Dem-to-GOP resides on the right side of the middle compared to countries whose political blocks actually entail some variant of socialism on the left side.

I put it to those who draw those parallells that they have not witnessed firsthand what political attempts to introduce socialism in otherwise democratic systems actually amount to. Such attempts, carried out by various socialist parties (which I oppose vigorously) are by far more controlling, market-damaging and Marxist than anything I have ever heard suggested by any leading American Democratic politician (and don't accuse me for not listening!). I live in one of the most tax-burdened countries on Earth, a sad fact that the current conservative administration (which I support) is desperately trying to remedy little by little (but with considerable difficulty due to the communist and socialist opposition parties in parliament, which are thankfully in a minority).

For the better (or worse) part of 70 years, the socialists goverened Sweden and instilled not only the economy (which for a while remained healthy for reasons to do with the rebuilding of Europe following WWII) with bloated and pointless government agencies and a crippling of the marketplace, but also with a generally grey psyche perpetuated by horrendous Soviet-style housing projects and a mentality that no-one is to be congratulated for individual success in life (the infamous so-called "Jante"-law). It was not a Soviet-style government - it was still a democracy, with freedom of speech and all - but it had the reddish tinge of socialist bureaucracy which still lingers in the minds of those clinging to the shattered remains of the former communist party. It was first around the time of the EU expansion in the late 80s that this old system started to fade away.

I work very hard to earn my keep as a small-business owner, and I pay my taxes - probably too much considering certain governmental agency waste. I do consider myself as part of the fiscally conservative (but socially liberal) side of the aisle - but I will say this: I do agree with paying for our national healthcare system and our educational system. I do loathe socialism and the horrors it has inflicted upon humanity (I will *never ever* forget what I saw as a child travelling with my parents through parts of Eastern Europe just around the fall of the Iron Curtain) - but the idea that specifically healthcare should only be provided to those who have succeeded in life is something that I will not adhere to. The idea that the pressure of the free market should rule ruthlessly on this level of society is something I find perverse. It would cause too much miserable crime-stricken slums of people with no realistic chance of ever managing to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps".
Great post and interesting to read from your perspective. I don't think, as far as socialist principles, the UK has ever gone as far down that route as Sweden, but it is almost amusing to read the naked fear that some Americans have about state-organised healthcare when we have had such as system here for 60 years which, despite some inefficiency and flaws, generally works very well.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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beatlechick
Oct 17 2008, 03:14 AM
Here is another match your President game. It was fun and with all but 2 questions (one I knew was a McCain statement but I agreed with it just the same) shows that overwhelmingly I support Obama.

Be truthful and tell us who your pick was.

http://abcnews.go.com/politics/MatchoMatic/fullpage?id=5542139
I agreed with Obama on 11 statements and McCain on 2.

McCain got a tick from me on one of the economic statements and one on the immigration.

Although that quiz seems to have been quite fair, it would be easy for any 'spin merchants' to have distorted the candidates views. I think abc did a good job there. :)
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Your Issue Profile: 84% Obama, 16% McCain

Posted Image

When it comes to the issues, you agree with Obama on almost everything.
Surprised? Probably not. You've had your eye on Obama for a while.

In fact, you're likely already a strong Obama supporter.
You know where your vote is going this November.

Should You Vote for Obama or McCain?
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Love Sculpture
Oct 17 2008, 03:42 PM
Monkey Chow
Oct 17 2008, 02:58 PM
How about the baby's right to choose?
In my country abortion is a crime and it's hell. Women make abortion in clinics where people aren't doctors, they take medicines to abort etc. Many die, many have health problems like womb tumor because Hospitals can't make abortion.

There is sexual education at schools, any hospital give condoms and pills and teach people how to use them but many poor women get pregnant and try to abort. Others try to abort because they were raped.

When I was working at a Psychiatry hospital there was a case of a 10 years old who got raped by her dad and she was 5 months pregnant and the judge didn't allow her to make an abortion BECAUSE her health was good and her baby was healthy too and detail : HE WAS CATHOLIC. :roll: PHYSICALLY she was ok. EMOTIONALLY she was devasted, she lost her identity, she was 10 years old but she would be a mother in few months. Her dad died in jail and her mother was desperated trying to give her daughter what she didn't have: emotional structure.

This girl was in treatment with my professor and we, some few students, followed the case. I tried to talk to her, to get closer, to understand and to study her but she was closed and she didn't look into anybodys' eyes.

Do you think the baby of this child will have a good life? What about baby's choice? Do you think a baby want to have a miserable life, a mother with serious emotional problems who won't be able to give him what he needs? One day this baby will grow up and will yell at his depressed mother: Why didn't you abort me? Why do I have to live this crap life without opportunities, job, education?


There are 2 ways of killing a human. Killing, literally or don't giving the human emotional and familiar base = opportunity.

The baby of a child NEVER have emotional structure and that's not good. We aren't rats, we don't have to give birth like rats, we don't have to live like rats. A life must be planned.

A very impassioned and compelling post, Michelle, and I appreciate it very much. Thank you for that.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Mia Culpa
Oct 18 2008, 05:24 AM
otlset
Oct 16 2008, 08:11 PM
"Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."

--John Fitzgerald Kennedy

A famous line from a beloved president.

I will ask each of you now about the sentiments here in regard to the current election. Which party today reflects the above sentiment more in their aims and promises to the electorate? Think about it carefully.
I don't think either party really cares. They want power and they'll lie, cheat and steal their way into it. They manipulate and use the few who vote and get everybody to play this stupid tit-for-tat game with hypocrisy and insults. When the game's over it doesn't make much difference who won. The rich will get richer and the poor will stay poor. There will be invasions and wars. American television will get worse and worse.

What can you do for your country? Vote for independent candidates who don't owe their party anything. Democracy needs more than 2 choices.
I think your entire post is overly cynical. There is nothing wrong with cynicism and I probably abhor the lack of choice that a two-party system offers America as much as you do, but I think, this time, for the first time in a couple of decades, America is being offered the choice to really change. Although both candidates openly stand on the platform of change, only one of them can really offer it.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Bill
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I was for Nader in 2000.

I've learnt my lesson.
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Bill
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Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that John McCain's middle name sounds like a city in a foreign country? How can we be sure that he's not acting for that country and not America? I mean, you wouldn't expect the Prime Minister of New Zealand to be called Helen Los Angeles Clarke, would you? Why can't John McCain have a middle name that sounds like an American city? It makes you wonder if America can really afford to take such a risk.
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Palin in the Oval Office!

Scroll around the room and click on various objects for memorable Palin quotes.
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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
Andy? You probably agreed with McCain on the same 2 questions I agreed with him. Were we separated at birth? No, wait! That would make me your old twin sister! :lol:
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Dorfliedot
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Beatlelicious
Their is always adoption.. Sorry ,I believe in prolife.
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Dorfliedot
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Bill
Oct 18 2008, 03:41 PM
Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that John McCain's middle name sounds like a city in a foreign country? How can we be sure that he's not acting for that country and not America? I mean, you wouldn't expect the Prime Minister of New Zealand to be called Helen Los Angeles Clarke, would you? Why can't John McCain have a middle name that sounds like an American city? It makes you wonder if America can really afford to take such a risk.
You're right. Lets get rid of both of them. McCain and Obama.m The Name Dotty Mae crow sounds like a better candid for presidency.. If I miss spelled that that is ok. My vice president will have the same problem with Gramer and spelling if they don't then that just be plan un AMerican.
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ThirdHarmony
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"Dorothy"
 
You're right. Lets get rid of both of them. McCain and Obama.m The Name Dotty Mae crow sounds like a better candid for presidency.. If I miss spelled that that is ok. My vice president will have the same problem with Gramer and spelling if they don't then that just be plan un AMerican.


:D What a fun post, Dotty!

I am sitting at home with a fever and a cold, drinking hot tea and generally feeling a bit sorry for myself, and that just put a smile on my lips. I needed that, thank you!
"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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scottycatt
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LapisLee
Oct 18 2008, 07:35 PM
Palin in the Oval Office!

Scroll around the room and click on various objects for memorable Palin quotes.
Thanks for that, Lapis! :rofl:


Did you find all the clickable items? Some of them were well-disguised! :rofl:



You betcha! :rofl: *wink*




Why?
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scottycatt
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Bill
Oct 18 2008, 01:41 PM
I was for Nader in 2000.

I've learnt my lesson.
You voted in 2000? :o


I had no idea that ACORN was active in Oz! :o :whistle:




Why?
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Bill
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I never said I voted.

The thing about learning my lesson is that while the idealist in me still prefers Nader over Bush or Gore, the pragmatist in me realised that the US electoral system is set up to only work with binary choices and any third candidate ruins is for everyone. Lest everyone groan at the mention of unfairness in 2000 again, let's talk about 1992. Clinton won because Perot gave it to him. The majority of voters chose one of the conservative candidates. I'm glad Clinton won, but by any democratic standards, he shouldn't have. Why do you think Nader's biggest donor in 2004 was the Republican party?

And the ACORN thing is a complete beat-up. See above.
Put a puppet on it.
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scottycatt
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Was just having a go at you, Bill. ;) If you don't exercise a vote, then it doesn't really matter who you support -- in 2000 or now. I agreed with much of what Nader represented, then and now, but I have to live with the reality that any vote for a 3rd party candidate is a *wasted* vote. I don't like it, but it's reality. :yes:


The thing with ACORN is really a non-issue. They can register all the bogus names they want, but unless Mickey Mouse, Santa Claus and Elvis show up to vote, there's no harm done. :roll:

To my way of thinking, it's a much more harmful situation to have legitimate voters showing up to their polling places, only to be denied their right to vote, because their names have been unrightly purged. :roll:




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Bill
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Exactly!

And whether a third-party vote is a wasted vote all comes down to the electoral system. It doesn't work that way here. Minor parties can actually benefit each other, not hand the result to those they most oppose.

For all that, in a democracy (even an American democracy) you get the government you deserve. I've never blamed those who voted for Bush. I blame those who didn't vote against him.
Put a puppet on it.
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JeffLynnesBeard
Oct 18 2008, 11:48 AM

A very impassioned and compelling post, Michelle, and I appreciate it very much. Thank you for that.
Thanks Andy for caring about my opinion. :hug:
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scottycatt
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Bill
Oct 19 2008, 02:16 AM
Exactly!

And whether a third-party vote is a wasted vote all comes down to the electoral system. It doesn't work that way here. Minor parties can actually benefit each other, not hand the result to those they most oppose.

For all that, in a democracy (even an American democracy) you get the government you deserve. I've never blamed those who voted for Bush. I blame those who didn't vote against him.
Well then, I'm in the clear. ;)


As a friend of mine once said, "with a Bush and a Dick in charge, somebody's gonna get f*cked!" :lol:




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Dorfliedot
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Dorothy
Oct 18 2008, 08:34 PM
Bill
Oct 18 2008, 03:41 PM
Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that John McCain's middle name sounds like a city in a foreign country? How can we be sure that he's not acting for that country and not America? I mean, you wouldn't expect the Prime Minister of New Zealand to be called Helen Los Angeles Clarke, would you? Why can't John McCain have a middle name that sounds like an American city? It makes you wonder if America can really afford to take such a risk.
You're right. Lets get rid of both of them. McCain and Obama.m The Name Dotty Mae crow sounds like a better candid for presidency.. If I miss spelled that that is ok. My vice president will have the same problem with Gramer and spelling if they don't then that just be plan un AMerican.
~~ :clap: ~~
Edited by Dorfliedot, Oct 19 2008, 04:09 AM.
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Dorfliedot
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ThirdHarmony
Oct 19 2008, 12:16 AM
"Dorothy"
 
You're right. Lets get rid of both of them. McCain and Obama.m The Name Dotty Mae crow sounds like a better candid for presidency.. If I miss spelled that that is ok. My vice president will have the same problem with Gramer and spelling if they don't then that just be plan un AMerican.


:D What a fun post, Dotty!

I am sitting at home with a fever and a cold, drinking hot tea and generally feeling a bit sorry for myself, and that just put a smile on my lips. I needed that, thank you!
^_^ You're welcome. I hope you feel better soon.
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scottycatt
Oct 19 2008, 01:21 AM
LapisLee
Oct 18 2008, 07:35 PM
Palin in the Oval Office!

Scroll around the room and click on various objects for memorable Palin quotes.
Thanks for that, Lapis! :rofl:


Did you find all the clickable items? Some of them were well-disguised! :rofl:



You betcha! :rofl: *wink*
I have found 42 clickable items so far. I will list them tomorrow when I sober up...
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Bill
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Powell endorses Obama.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/54418.html
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Samwise
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Bill
Oct 19 2008, 02:57 PM
And it is good. When Geoge W. Bush's former Secretary of State, the very man who made the case to the U.N. to go into Iraq, endorses the Democratic candidate, you know something fundamental has failed in the Republican Party.
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Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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Queenbee
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Samwise
Oct 19 2008, 04:06 PM
Bill
Oct 19 2008, 02:57 PM
And it is good. When Geoge W. Bush's former Secretary of State, the very man who made the case to the U.N. to go into Iraq, endorses the Democratic candidate, you know something fundamental has failed in the Republican Party.
For someone who is so intelligent, I can't believe you said that. Powell testified what the information (lies) he was given. Anyone who doesn't look up to Colin Powell is.........I can't say uneducated, because YOU are very intelligent. But I won't go along with what you just said.

OBAMA here I come.

PEACE and love to my friends, Judy

When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace.
-Sri Chinmnoy Ghose

Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind.
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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
wackadoo
Oct 17 2008, 03:00 PM
maccascruff
Oct 17 2008, 01:47 AM
Bill
Oct 17 2008, 01:45 AM
Yer darn right!
:whistle: And you betcha'
You may not agree with a candidate, but making fun of her way of talking is a cheap shot.
Maryann, I think making light of the way someone talks is only human. I do it and so do most anyone else. Even she has made fun of it.

Here are her two skits on SNL last night

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/gov-palin-cold-open/773761/

And here is where she even said you betcha!

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-palin-rap/773781/

I have to say that she can take a good ribbing. She does seem like a homey person but just not a very good vp candidate.
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BeatleBarb
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I think Powell's endorsement of Obama is very significant and symbolic and could not have come at a better time for Obama.

Like Powell, I believe that transformational leadership, is what is long over due in the White House.
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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
Samwise
Oct 19 2008, 04:06 PM
Bill
Oct 19 2008, 02:57 PM
And it is good. When Geoge W. Bush's former Secretary of State, the very man who made the case to the U.N. to go into Iraq, endorses the Democratic candidate, you know something fundamental has failed in the Republican Party.
I kind of have to echo what Judy said. The only exception is that I have to expand on it by stating that Gen. Powell did not endorse the war at all. He was the one that tried to talk the administration out of it but somewhere along the lines he had to do what they wanted him to do and that was to sell the war. He was one of the critics of the war before and today.
Edited by beatlechick, Oct 19 2008, 05:22 PM.
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