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2008 U.S. Presidential Election
Topic Started: Feb 22 2007, 05:49 AM (37,419 Views)
beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
Mia Culpa
Oct 11 2008, 06:37 AM
Less than a month to go. When are Obamites and McCainers going to start talking about actual issues? Your economy is abysmal and taking the rest of the world down with it. Your never-ending war in Iraq has gone years beyond destabalising. Your class system is just as divisive as ever. You're the richest country in the world and most of your people can't pay the bills.

Does anybody really care about the candidates' and their spouses' friends and associates 100 years ago? This is a serious time requiring serious solutions. This isn't the time for the usual stupid election garbage. Bases are loaded and you've got 2 outs. It's your turn at bat and you're still looking for a parking space. It's time to get your head out and knock one over the wall.

Should this be in the vent thread?
You raise some valid points. They are trying to raise the issues but no one is listening amongst all the shoutings of the audience saying "he's a terrorist, kill him" or "she's joe six-pack." McCain is being soundly shouted down by his own party about his plan on buying bad mortgages. Obama has been calling for a pull-out in Iraq, a war he never supported in the first place, for 2 years now. There are different plans on both sides on how to work the economy. However, economists are saying that neither plan will work.

Unfortunately, when it comes to the near end (and the according to the polls losing party feels they aren't getting the attention they need) scare tactics get used. That is just one of them.

It's a valid criticism and not a vent.
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Bill
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I agree with everything you've said Mia.
I'd like to make it clear that my point in posting arcane knowledge about Ms Palin's past lives is purely to illustrate the hypocrisy of those on the right who want to beat up trivia about Obama's associations.

The fact that Republicans are still harping on about this, despite the deplorable condition their nation is in - largely thanks to their party's mismanagement - says it all for me.
Put a puppet on it.
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maccascruff
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I agree with you, Mia. I do know Obama's position on the issues. I explained them enough times for the February 5 caucuses. I had already made up my mind way back then.

If you were here to see all the attack ads on television, you would think this is down to a few issues--like Ayers.

In reference to Palin's abuse of power, I believe that it shows just how power hungry she is and how much access Todd Palin had to things that the spouse of the elected official has no business knowing. That frightens me about her possibly being the vice president.
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scottycatt
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http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-onthemedia10-2008oct10,0,783115.story?page=1


Bill, are you a ghost writer for the Times? :unsure: :whistle:




Why?
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wackadoo
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Who said "Kill all rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Kill your parents, that's where it's really at."

Who said (in regards to the Manson murders) "Dig it. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, then they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach. Wild."

Who hosted Obama's campaign kick-off party for his first state senate race in their home?

How is the anti-Semite Lous Farrakhan associated with Obama's former pastor who Obama considered 'as close as family' until that relationship had potential of hurting his political career?

How is Obama connected to the anti-white radical Khalid al-Mansour?

Wake up, people...we are talking about our potential next president who we will be entrusting with our national security.

Doesn't it bother anyone else besides me that he has not one, not two, but 3 non American names? And please...don't play the racist card with me.





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RIP Steve. I love and miss you.
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scottycatt
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beatlechick
Oct 11 2008, 01:47 AM
Bill
Oct 11 2008, 01:44 AM
But I bet that's just going to make Republicans love her more while they spread rumours about Obama sharing a joint with Abbie Hoffman.
HE DID?!? Well I guess they will have to tar and feather him now! What a pity, I knew he smoked pot and did cocaine in college but to smoke weed with the HOFF is just not acceptable! :P
http://gregcookland.com/journal/uploaded_images/picHasselHoff-747711.jpg


Everyone knows that this is the *real* Hoff! :roll: :D




Why?
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scottycatt
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wackadoo
Oct 12 2008, 01:55 AM
Who said "Kill all rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Kill your parents, that's where it's really at."

Who said (in regards to the Manson murders) "Dig it. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, then they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach. Wild."

Who hosted Obama's campaign kick-off party for his first state senate race in their home?

How is the anti-Semite Lous Farrakhan associated with Obama's former pastor who Obama considered 'as close as family' until that relationship had potential of hurting his political career?

How is Obama connected to the anti-white radical Khalid al-Mansour?

Wake up, people...we are talking about our potential next president who we will be entrusting with our national security.

Doesn't it bother anyone else besides me that he has not one, not two, but 3 non American names? And please...don't play the racist card with me.





Mary Ann, surely you're kidding here. :o




Why?
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retrollama
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scottycatt
Oct 12 2008, 02:03 AM
Mary Ann, surely you're kidding here. :o
I don't think she is ... :pinch:

Back in July, Obama predicted exactly how McCain would attack him:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH2iufUU1f4


It's amazing how right he was.
What a long, strange trip it's been....
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Jacaranda
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wackadoo
Oct 12 2008, 01:55 AM
Doesn't it bother anyone else besides me that he has not one, not two, but 3 non American names? And please...don't play the racist card with me.





I really hope you're not serious about this part Maryann because if you are that's just plain disturbing.
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McCain's supporters are becoming increasingly desperate as his chances continue to slip away.

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Bill
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wackadoo
Oct 12 2008, 01:55 AM
Who said "Kill all rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Kill your parents, that's where it's really at."

Who said (in regards to the Manson murders) "Dig it. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, then they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach. Wild."

Who hosted Obama's campaign kick-off party for his first state senate race in their home?

How is the anti-Semite Lous Farrakhan associated with Obama's former pastor who Obama considered 'as close as family' until that relationship had potential of hurting his political career?

How is Obama connected to the anti-white radical Khalid al-Mansour?

Wake up, people...we are talking about our potential next president who we will be entrusting with our national security.

Doesn't it bother anyone else besides me that he has not one, not two, but 3 non American names? And please...don't play the racist card with me.





No need. I think you just played it.

And if you want to talk about the anthropology of names, Maryanne isn't an American name either. Just ask as Sioux or a Navajo.

So frankly, the answer to your question is no. The follow-up question is why does it bother you?


Lee, don't defame Thomas like that!
Put a puppet on it.
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Bill
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scottycatt
Oct 12 2008, 01:54 AM
You know you've sunk pretty low when the Dog Trainer calls you out for sloppy journalism.

Thanks for the compliment, but I wasn't the first to notice Fox's switcheroos between reportage and right-wing propaganda. Although, perhaps being Australian, I've had a little more time to get used to the way the Murdoch media operates. Mind you, here they do it with a little more subtlety. But it all goes to prove that you'll never go broke underestimating your audience.
Put a puppet on it.
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Bill
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maccascruff
Oct 11 2008, 01:52 AM
People at this particular rally were shouting racial slurs and "kill him" and calling Obama a Muslim and an Arab. McCain told one woman that Obama is not an Arab. She said she was afraid if he got elected. McCain told her she had nothing to fear, that he just didn't agree with him on issues. So, I think he deserves credit. I also think this kind of rhetoric started with Palin's actions in Florida starting last week.
I've seen the video now.

Earlier in the piece, when McCain told another that Obama was a honourable man and nothing to be scare of... the crowd booed him.

Conservative values?
Put a puppet on it.
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maccascruff
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Bill
Oct 12 2008, 03:35 AM
wackadoo
Oct 12 2008, 01:55 AM
Who said "Kill all rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Kill your parents, that's where it's really at."

Who said (in regards to the Manson murders) "Dig it. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, then they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach. Wild."

Who hosted Obama's campaign kick-off party for his first state senate race in their home?

How is the anti-Semite Lous Farrakhan associated with Obama's former pastor who Obama considered 'as close as family' until that relationship had potential of hurting his political career?

How is Obama connected to the anti-white radical Khalid al-Mansour?

Wake up, people...we are talking about our potential next president who we will be entrusting with our national security.

Doesn't it bother anyone else besides me that he has not one, not two, but 3 non American names? And please...don't play the racist card with me.





No need. I think you just played it.

And if you want to talk about the anthropology of names, Maryanne isn't an American name either. Just ask as Sioux or a Navajo.

So frankly, the answer to your question is no. The follow-up question is why does it bother you?


Lee, don't defame Thomas like that!
I don't see what the problem is with the next president of the United States having the name Barack Hussein Obama. What does that have to do with his qualifications to be president?

Yes, you played the race card, so we don't have to. I can't believe I read this on this board.

Why does the fact that Obama has that particular name and has a white mother and a black father bother you?
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maccascruff
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Bill
Oct 12 2008, 04:01 AM
maccascruff
Oct 11 2008, 01:52 AM
People at this particular rally were shouting racial slurs and "kill him" and calling Obama a Muslim and an Arab. McCain told one woman that Obama is not an Arab. She said she was afraid if he got elected. McCain told her she had nothing to fear, that he just didn't agree with him on issues. So, I think he deserves credit. I also think this kind of rhetoric started with Palin's actions in Florida starting last week.
I've seen the video now.

Earlier in the piece, when McCain told another that Obama was a honourable man and nothing to be scare of... the crowd booed him.

Conservative values?
Exactly, Bill. However, Palin started this type of activity with her attacks of Obama "pallin" around with Ayers last weekend. McCain's base seemed to think this gave them the right to start this truly scary hate speech. No wonder there are those who think Obama will get assassinated by these hate mongers.
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maccascruff
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wackadoo
Oct 12 2008, 01:55 AM
Who said "Kill all rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Kill your parents, that's where it's really at."

Who said (in regards to the Manson murders) "Dig it. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, then they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach. Wild."

Who hosted Obama's campaign kick-off party for his first state senate race in their home?

How is the anti-Semite Lous Farrakhan associated with Obama's former pastor who Obama considered 'as close as family' until that relationship had potential of hurting his political career?

How is Obama connected to the anti-white radical Khalid al-Mansour?

Wake up, people...we are talking about our potential next president who we will be entrusting with our national security.

Doesn't it bother anyone else besides me that he has not one, not two, but 3 non American names? And please...don't play the racist card with me.





Did you write this yourself or is this from some conservative blog? I never thought that you were capable of this kind of hate. I guess I am in shock. :ermm: If you really feel like this, I predict you are going to have a long four years ahead of you.
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wackadoo
Oct 12 2008, 01:55 AM


Doesn't it bother anyone else besides me that he has not one, not two, but 3 non American names? And please...don't play the racist card with me.





First of all, what is an American name? European names? McCain is American family name since when? It's European, anyone knows or should know.

True American name is a Cherokee Indian name, for example. USA is an immigrant country, there are people from all around the world here, you know that, many people here don't have European family name it doesn't mean they are less American than others. If a couple from Madagascar have a baby in USA, this baby will be American.

I think you need to open your mind. We are not living in 1500. It's 2008 and it's very frustrating to see people full of prejudice like you.

There is nothing wrong with Obama's name. He is American, he was born in US, why his family name is important?

It's bullsh*t!
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ThirdHarmony
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Now that the McCain/Palin campaign is looking increasingly like it's heading for a decisive election loss, mudslinging and bizarre connections are being made by those who can't accept that their team is about to go down.

This, to some extent, is surely to be expected. For most of last month I've been shaking my head with a crooked smile whenever a new smear attack was rolled out by the McPalin team because subsequent polls seem to reflect that people seem to be more disgusted with those doing the smearing. They might have worked before the general public got to know Obama. I suspect (and hope) it is now too late for such ugly tactics to have any meaningful effect.

However...

When it got to the point of those nuts at MCain/Palin rallies literally screaming for Obama's blood along with their other ignorance-culture-based shouts, a very sinister and dark cloud seemed to descend on everything.

McCain did a (somewhat lame, but nonetheless) attempt to distance himself from this when he at one point told his crowd (followed by boos) not to do that, to show respect and that they do not have to fear Obama as president. This was critical for him. Had he not done this, it would have looked even more horrifying. Now, I would like to have heard him do the classic "Those of you with that attitude, I don't want your vote. Go home." - but he probably doesn't feel ha can afford to say things like that to his dwindling base.

But the attitude on display there scares me deeply, knowing what ignorant people fueled by hate are capable of doing when a frenzy is whipped up. Even if the main offenders were in the minority, it sounded like the crowd was just moments away from starting a book burning. When that message and image is put out there, it can all too easily fuel the madness of worse loonies.

I spoke earlier with my mother on the phone. She expressed a geniune anxiety for Obama's safety the coming weeks, having heard the hate. So many people's hopes are now placed upon the shoulders of one man, and if that hope was to be violently taken away, in today's America, I honestly can't imagine what effect it would have on the so-called "culture wars".

It's the point that keeps coming back: ignorance is dangerous.



Edited by ThirdHarmony, Oct 12 2008, 12:03 PM.
"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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Rose
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Well, here's another clue for you all, the Walrus was Paul...
Frightening. :unsure:

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"I'm in awe of McCartney. He's about the only one that I am in awe of. He can do it all. And he's never let up... He's just so damn effortless." ~ Bob Dylan
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BeatleBarb
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Excellent post, ThirdHarmony - I always enjoy and appreciate your perspective. Unfortunately, I share your concern. As I've said before, humans can be pretty sucky. I wonder just how far we really have come?
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
And having seen that hate spewed right here, I also fear for Obama's safety--both between now and the election and after the election. It is a very sad world we live in.

I still can't believe Mary Ann's post. My last name may sound American, whatever that is, but it's origins are from England.

Mary Ann, does your post mean that a Hispanic cannot be president? All of our names, except for Native American names, did not originate in this country.

I am still so offended and angry by that post. I can't believe I read it here and that I think she is serious. :(

Even my Rush Limbaugh loving former boss never came up with anything as hateful as this post.
Edited by maccascruff, Oct 12 2008, 05:53 PM.
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maccascruff
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Please watch this and feel better. Love Is All We'll Know We are not born to hate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUExu8eQOb4
Edited by maccascruff, Oct 12 2008, 06:05 PM.
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BeatleBarb
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Thanks for that, Linda.
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pood for paul

Wow. Just wow.
Edited by pood for paul, Oct 12 2008, 06:11 PM.
"Hey Jude, don't make it bad...
Take a sad song, and make it better..."
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
BeatleBarb
Oct 12 2008, 06:10 PM
Thanks for that, Linda.
Somebody in my Colorado for Obama group sent it to me. I know I needed it. I didn't sleep well at all last night after reading that post. Couldn't believe what I was reading.
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beatlechick
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wackadoo
Oct 12 2008, 01:55 AM
Who said "Kill all rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Kill your parents, that's where it's really at."

Who said (in regards to the Manson murders) "Dig it. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, then they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach. Wild."

Who hosted Obama's campaign kick-off party for his first state senate race in their home?

How is the anti-Semite Lous Farrakhan associated with Obama's former pastor who Obama considered 'as close as family' until that relationship had potential of hurting his political career?

How is Obama connected to the anti-white radical Khalid al-Mansour?

Wake up, people...we are talking about our potential next president who we will be entrusting with our national security.

Doesn't it bother anyone else besides me that he has not one, not two, but 3 non American names? And please...don't play the racist card with me.





Maryann, not playing the race card but this shows a lot of ignorance here especially the part where you state the 3 non-American names. What that really means is that he has 3 non-anglo names since America is comprised of people from different countries, ethnicity, and religions. My God his father was a Muslim (non-practicing from all accounts) from Kenya and his mother was a white, Christian woman from Kansas.

Yes it is a concern with some people that one person associates with but can a person not change their tactics and beliefs over their lifespan? Believe me, Rev. Wright is not the only public name that has associated themselves with Louis Farrakhan. Are we ready to condemn people for having any certain person that you don't like or agree with as friends or acquaintances? If that is the case than I could condemn all who vote for McCain because some of his best friends were members of the KKK, you remember them - killing blacks and anyone they did not agree with? Only one of them has repented, one of three. If we were to condemn people for aligning themselves with people of dubious reputations than surely the assh*le who killed John Lennon was justified for doing so for some people hated people like Jerry Rubin, Abbie Hoffman, Angela Davis, and the like (even though both Jerry Rubin and Angela Davis changed their lifestyle as has William Ayers) all of these being people John was acquainted with during his peace rally days. I hang out with gay people, some militant. Does that make me a gay militant woman simply because of guilt by association? I have my own thoughts and ideas apart from my gay friends.
Edited by beatlechick, Oct 12 2008, 08:22 PM.
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beatlechick
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ThirdHarmony
Oct 12 2008, 12:02 PM
But the attitude on display there scares me deeply, knowing what ignorant people fueled by hate are capable of doing when a frenzy is whipped up. Even if the main offenders were in the minority, it sounded like the crowd was just moments away from starting a book burning. When that message and image is put out there, it can all too easily fuel the madness of worse loonies.

I spoke earlier with my mother on the phone. She expressed a geniune anxiety for Obama's safety the coming weeks, having heard the hate. So many people's hopes are now placed upon the shoulders of one man, and if that hope was to be violently taken away, in today's America, I honestly can't imagine what effect it would have on the so-called "culture wars".

It's the point that keeps coming back: ignorance is dangerous.



With all the sh*t and fearmongering that is happening, I fear for Obama more now than before. I still want him as my President but I have to trust and have faith that Americans, and the world for that matter, will not do anything to harm him. That faith and trust is fading but I can always have hope that nothing will happen.

Yes, ignorance is dangerous.
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beatlechick
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maccascruff
Oct 12 2008, 06:03 PM
Please watch this and feel better. Love Is All We'll Know We are not born to hate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUExu8eQOb4
Made me want to cry. We do have to learn to hate and not see past our own noses on what this world can be. I have seen hate, in all its' glory, in my own family and can not tolerate it! When my own hatefilled grandmother spews hate filled epithets, like my mom is sleeping with her black (actually her "n" word) friends or being ecstatic that one of my heroes MLK was assassinated, and still profess to being a good Catholic (why didn't my mom send me to parochial school and why didn't we go to a Catholic Church) than I start to think that there is little hope for our future. Well our future is here and we can change our course but we have to become our children for only they live and love unconditionally, that is until they learn to become adults.

Ironically, I am listening to our Breakfast with The Beatles and Happiness is a Warm Gun came on. Now they are playing God. Now I shall go and have a good cry.
Edited by beatlechick, Oct 12 2008, 06:47 PM.
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beatlechick
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Found this article to be pretty interesting:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081012/ap_on_el_pr/guilt_by_association_fact_check_1

Quote:
 
Fact Check: Camps highlight foes' old associates
By CHRISTOPHER WILLS, Associated Press Writer


Scraping for any advantage in the presidential campaign's waning days, John McCain and Barack Obama are introducing voters to a new cast of characters.

McCain would like people to know about a former 1960s radical and a corrupt government insider — both with links to his Democratic opponent.

And Obama is raising the Republican candidate's connections to a disgraced savings and loan executive and a supporter of right-wing death squads.

Each candidate is trying to plant the idea that his opponent must be guilty of something if he has connections to such unsavory characters. Both candidates are guilty of stretching the facts, at times, to smear by association.

A closer look at the relationships being mentioned in campaign videos, ads and e-mails:

• William Ayers: Forty years ago, Ayers was a founder of the Weather Underground, a radical group that claimed responsibility for a series of bombings, including nonfatal explosions at the Pentagon and U.S. Capitol. He was a fugitive for years with his wife, fellow radical Bernadine Dohrn. But after Ayers surrendered in 1980, the charges against him were dropped because of prosecutorial misconduct.

Eventually, Ayers became a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago, specializing in education reform and even advising Chicago Mayor Richard Daley.

In 1995, Ayers hosted a meet-the-candidate session at his home for Obama as he prepared to run for the state Senate. Later, the two worked with the same charity and social-service organizations in Chicago.

Obama has tried to minimize his link to Ayers, at one point saying he was just a guy who lived in the same neighborhood. But while there was more to the relationship than that, there is no evidence they were ever close friends or that Ayers advised Obama on policy. Obama has denounced Ayers' violent activities, which occurred when Obama was a child.

• Charles Keating: Keating was a real estate speculator and savings and loan owner. His institution failed, costing many investors their life savings and sticking taxpayers with a $2.8 billion bailout cost.

McCain received $112,000 from him, his family and associates, and took trips to the Bahamas at Keating's expense. McCain took up Keating's cause with financial regulators who were investigating the businessman.

Keating eventually went to prison, and McCain received a mild rebuke from the Senate ethics committee. McCain repaid $112,000 to the U.S. Treasury and reimbursed Keating for the trips. He later said attending two meetings with bank regulators on behalf of Keating was "the worst mistake of my life" and that it had made him more sensitive to the need for government reform.

• Antoin "Tony" Rezko: Rezko was a key supporter and donor throughout Obama's political career. Obama estimates Rezko raised $250,000 for his various campaigns, though not for his presidential bid. The two were friends who talked frequently about politics and occasionally dined out together with their wives.

Rezko was convicted this summer on federal charges of using his clout with state government to squeeze kickbacks out of firms wanting to do business with the state. The charges do not involve Obama. Rezko now appears to be cooperating with a federal probe of corruption in the Illinois government.

Obama consulted Rezko, a real estate developer, before buying a home in 2005. Rezko ended up buying a vacant lot next door and then selling some of the land to Obama. But Rezko did not help Obama pay for his house, and the sellers say Obama got no special treatment.

As a state senator, Obama wrote letters endorsing government support of a Rezko housing project for senior citizens. Obama aides say he was simply supporting a project that would help residents of his district, not doing a favor for a friend.

• John Singlaub: A retired Army general, Singlaub founded the U.S. Council for World Freedom, which aided rebels trying to overthrow the leftist government of Nicaragua. That landed the group in the middle of the Iran-Contra affair and in legal trouble with the Internal Revenue Service.

The council was connected to the World Anti-Communist League, an organization linked to former Nazi collaborators and ultra-right-wing death squads in Central America.

McCain served on the council's advisory board in the early 1980s. McCain says he resigned in 1984 and asked to have his name taken off the group's letterhead in 1986.

Singlaub says he doesn't recall McCain resigning, but also says McCain was never active in the organization and instead just let the group use his name for public relations purposes.

• Rick Davis: McCain's campaign manager had financial ties to mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac almost up to the time the government took them over last month and the nation's financial system went into a tailspin.

Meanwhile, McCain repeatedly has accused Obama of taking advice from former executives of Fannie and Freddie and failing to see that they were heading for a meltdown.

Davis or his lobbying firm have taken more than $2 million directly or indirectly from the mortgage companies dating to 2000. In 2005, the lobbying firm began getting $15,000 a month from Freddie Mac, although sources told The New York Times the firm did little work for the money.

___



Cool videos:

http://www.good.is/?p=11983
Edited by beatlechick, Oct 12 2008, 08:47 PM.
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BlueMolly2009
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WOW, Maryann, I didn't know you had so much hate in you. But that's a typical McCain supporter, I guess. Look how McCain is running his campaign? He's full of hate. People don't want to admit it, but a lot of McCain supporters are racists, because what they are saying about Obama. They don't know him personally, they only see he is African-American. This kind of scares me, because I don't know what nutjob will try and kills Obama if he's President, because of his race. :no:
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It's a little bit off topic but there is a little town in Japan called Obama. Obama in Japanese means "Little beach". :P


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Love Sculpture
Oct 12 2008, 09:13 PM
It's a little bit off topic but there is a little town in Japan called Obama. Obama in Japanese means "Little beach". :P


Oh no you diin't! :giggle:
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beatlechick
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BlueMolly2008
Oct 12 2008, 09:04 PM
WOW, Maryann, I didn't know you had so much hate in you. But that's a typical McCain supporter, I guess. Look how McCain is running his campaign? He's full of hate. People don't want to admit it, but a lot of McCain supporters are racists, because what they are saying about Obama. They don't know him personally, they only see he is African-American. This kind of scares me, because I don't know what nutjob will try and kills Obama if he's President, because of his race. :no:
Molly, I wouldn't go that far. First of all, I don't believe Maryann to hate, secondly I don't believe that McCain and his supporters are racist. We are at a time where we have to think about what is going on and try to figure out how to best deal with this fearmongering before it eats us all up. We have to let cooler heads prevail and think of what is best for the US and the world. Do we want to project to the outside world that the US is not only in bad financial shape but that we are allowing our fears and hatred to rule over us or do we want to show the world that we can conquer our fears and hatred with wisdom? We can not tolerate either side to call each other names. We have to see that each side is more than just smear tactics. We need respect and wisdom or we will crumble and let our fears conquer. We do that, we might as well throw in the towel.
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BeatleBarb
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Good post, Cathy. Some of us have met and got to know MaryAnn - I feel confident in knowing she isn't a hater. She is a kind, lovely person as is the rest of her family. As Cathy has pointed out, there is a lot of information out there and it takes some doing to figure it all out. Perhaps MaryAnn will elaborate on her concerns.
Edited by BeatleBarb, Oct 13 2008, 03:53 AM.
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Bill
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McCain is a good man who has taken too much advice from bad people.

Cathy is right. All politics may be local but the world is watching. The ugly turns that the campaign has taken may not be a reflection on the majority of Americans, but people should remember how they reacted when they saw racial ugliness in other countries' elections.
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beatlechick
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Thank you Barb and Bill. ;) Lest we forget the old saying that the world is but a stage and we are all players. What happens in one place, reverberates all over.
Edited by beatlechick, Oct 13 2008, 04:04 AM.
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scottycatt
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BeatleBarb
Oct 13 2008, 03:52 AM
Good post, Cathy. Some of us have met and got to know MaryAnn - I feel confident in knowing she isn't a hater. She is a kind, lovely person as is the rest of her family. As Cathy has pointed out, there is a lot of information out there and it takes some doing to figure it all out. Perhaps MaryAnn will elaborate on her concerns.
I agree with you both. I'll be glad when the election is over and we can all start pulling together as one nation, instead of the two that are being created as a result of all this fear-mongering and mudslinging from both sides. :(







Why?
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Mindy
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Quote:
 
Molly, I wouldn't go that far. First of all, I don't believe Maryann to hate, secondly I don't believe that McCain and his supporters are racist. We are at a time where we have to think about what is going on and try to figure out how to best deal with this fearmongering before it eats us all up. We have to let cooler heads prevail and think of what is best for the US and the world. Do we want to project to the outside world that the US is not only in bad financial shape but that we are allowing our fears and hatred to rule over us or do we want to show the world that we can conquer our fears and hatred with wisdom? We can not tolerate either side to call each other names. We have to see that each side is more than just smear tactics. We need respect and wisdom or we will crumble and let our fears conquer. We do that, we might as well throw in the towel.


I don't think McCain is a racist, but some of his supporters definitely are. They're afraid of Obama, and they're making threats by shouting kill him, bomb him and calling him a terrorist and Arab and rallies.

I do agree that we need to think about what is best for the US as a whole and the world, though.
Edited by Mindy, Oct 13 2008, 04:28 AM.
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beatlechick
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I really don't think that the supporters are racist. There is a lot of ignorance out there, ignorance out of fear and we need to teach them there is nothing to fear.
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Mindy
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Racism is based in ignorance. I think we'd all be kidding ourselves if we thought there aren't some Americans who are afraid of the country being run by a black man, especially a black man with a "muslim" sounding name. There are people who will never get past the color of Obama's skin. It's sad but it's true.



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LapisLee
Oct 12 2008, 03:18 AM
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Yes, whoever created that really is desperate.
If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead.
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wackadoo
Oct 12 2008, 01:55 AM
Doesn't it bother anyone else besides me that he has not one, not two, but 3 non American names? And please...don't play the racist card with me.





It doesn't bother me. My question is, why does it bother you?
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ThirdHarmony
Oct 12 2008, 12:02 PM
So many people's hopes are now placed upon the shoulders of one man,
That's always dangerous. And a little stupid. The hopes of Americans should be on 300 million shoulders.
If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead.
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BlueMolly2008
Oct 12 2008, 09:04 PM
WOW, Maryann, I didn't know you had so much hate in you. But that's a typical McCain supporter, I guess. Look how McCain is running his campaign? He's full of hate. People don't want to admit it, but a lot of McCain supporters are racists, because what they are saying about Obama. They don't know him personally, they only see he is African-American. This kind of scares me, because I don't know what nutjob will try and kills Obama if he's President, because of his race. :no:
By that logic Obamites must hate disabled people because of what they say about him. They don't know him personally either.
If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead.
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Mia Culpa
Oct 13 2008, 05:19 AM
LapisLee
Oct 12 2008, 03:18 AM
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Yes, whoever created that really is desperate.
Therefore it must have been created by McCain supporters?
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BlueMolly2009
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I do have to give McCain some props for telling that woman that said Obama is an Arab. That was great how he is trying to stop some of his supporters from going too far.
I actually don't think it's McCain who is racist, but some of his supporters are. That's what scares me the most.
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Be careful what you spin.

Bullet train = foreign
Amtrak = didn't they go bankrupt?
locomotive = there would be no U.S. without it
Thomas = Ringo!
With great power comes great responsibility. With great age....
What was I going to say?
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ThirdHarmony
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In constrast to yesterday's anxiety-based postings, perhaps it can be worthwhile to look at some positives given the current state of things.

First of all - the up and coming generations give me some comfort. Yes, I am well aware that people tend to be a bit more left-leaning in their younger years, but it seems like what we are looking at here is a shift in specific issue attitudes. For instance, a much more gay-friendly youth spells bright news for the future, as older and sadly more intolerant generations are shifted out. A youth that appears much less apprehensive about the prospect of people with funny-sounding names. A youth that (rightly or wrongly) seem more prone to hope than cynisism. And yes, Mia, I agree that it is foolhardy to place too much hope on one person - but it is undeniable that the concept of a person inspiring action in the many rather than the few seems to be having an effect on the outcome of this election. Like a supporter sign I saw recently - it said "Be like Barack", which is not quite the same sentiment as saying "Hey you are going to solve all our problems in one swift stroke".

American politics are like this, deeply tied to the personal traits of the individual - which is probably not the most level-headed way of assessing competence in running a nation. However, just because the vast majority of elected leaders in for instance Europe are as grey and dreary as they come doesn't mean they were good choices either.

Yes, personality promotion is a huge part of the US Election process, that's just the way it is. It is important to try and discern the specific politics behind the personal stories, which can be less than straightforward when people are either celebrating or smearing the history of a candidate. Having tried hard to do this by reading, and reading, and reading up on the different candidates and their campaign teams in cooler times, before the personality-based campainging kicked into a higher gear I can only conclude that - potential-wise (we shall see how it turns out!) - Obama's policies seem the more level-headed and appropriate for the modern world's challenges. And that's speaking as a fiscal conservative (though that may not be the same thing as conservative Americans are used to).

Edit: Also, it looks as if the Democrats are about to make even more dramatics inroads in Congress. With massive pickups in the House, even compared to last time, and perhaps a 60-seat, cloture-ensuring, filibuster-proof Senate - meaning legislation might actually get passed (!!). I would predict that they have a good shot of at least 59 seats, and in that case a future President Obama could appoint a middle-leaning republican senator from a state with a democratic governor to an administration position to flip the 60th Senate seat blue. Who could be such a choice (which would have the bonus of seeming bi-partisan)? Hmm... Arlen Specter?



Edited by ThirdHarmony, Oct 13 2008, 10:32 AM.
"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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Bill
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ThirdHarmony
Oct 13 2008, 10:23 AM
I would predict that they have a good shot of at least 59 seats, and in that case a future President Obama could appoint a middle-leaning republican senator from a state with a democratic governor to an administration position to flip the 60th Senate seat blue.



Interesting analysis.
Under such circumstances, I would like to think that Obama wouldn't be quite so cynical.
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ThirdHarmony
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Bill
Oct 13 2008, 10:41 AM
ThirdHarmony
Oct 13 2008, 10:23 AM
I would predict that they have a good shot of at least 59 seats, and in that case a future President Obama could appoint a middle-leaning republican senator from a state with a democratic governor to an administration position to flip the 60th Senate seat blue.



Interesting analysis.
Under such circumstances, I would like to think that Obama wouldn't be quite so cynical.
Well, we shall see, I suppose. :) Either way, things would certainly be different compared to when Clinton had to fight the Newt-led Congress every step of the way.

[I recall the delightful little turn of phrase: "Is Progress the opposite of Congress?"]



Edited by ThirdHarmony, Oct 13 2008, 11:12 AM.
"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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wackadoo
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First off, I am living in an area that, if I were racist, I would have been long gone. In most of the classes I sub in, there are a small % of white children. I love them all. I never ever see color when I walk in to a classroom. Furthermore, my church is about 20% African American and that is one reason I am there. I love the racial diversity and have always held a special place in my heart for Afirican American people. Also, my son in law is Egyptian and I love him as much as any of my kids.

If only one of these controveries came up in regards to radical connections, it would be easy to brush it off as a smear to a candidate. However, as I did my research on Obama, I found various connections that disturbed me, in light of 911. I will never forget the images of those attacks and I will stand on the side of caution in regards to all that I've read. Why take a chance that even one of these connections to radicals is valid? Haven't the terrorists claimed they will take America from within? Didn't they get their pilot training right on our soil? Shouldn't we all be doing extensive research on both candidates in light of the serious condition we seem to be faced with at this time? I plan to do more reasearch on McCain in light of Cathy's post. I appreciate her responding to my post with intelligence and facts. Thank you, Cathy. We all need to keep an open mind and I, for one, appreciate the research Cathy does.
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BlueMolly2008
Oct 12 2008, 09:04 PM
WOW, Maryann, I didn't know you had so much hate in you. But that's a typical McCain supporter, I guess. Look how McCain is running his campaign? He's full of hate. People don't want to admit it, but a lot of McCain supporters are racists, because what they are saying about Obama. They don't know him personally, they only see he is African-American. This kind of scares me, because I don't know what nutjob will try and kills Obama if he's President, because of his race. :no:
Molly, as usual, you are running off your mouth with a bunch of crap. You are the only one who offended me. I can handle criticism but for you to say my comments imply hate is offensive. I have no idea where you get off that McCain is racist. Have you seen his adopted daughter? Have you studied his work with the Hispanic people in his state?

By the way, do you know Obama personally? I didn't think so.

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Bill
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Right, so it's not like you've got anything against people with "non-American" names, you just wouldn't vote for them.

Maryanne, there's right-wing bullsh*t all over the place. Why take a chance on any of it being true? Because it's not true. It's one thing to do research, it's another to base that research on credible sources and not chain emails from extremists. And I have to say that I find it rather curious that it took Cathy's post right now to prompt you to do some research into John McCain. I would have expected someone with an open mind to investigate both candidates equally. You might want to start with McCain's involvement through the 80s with a group links to Central American death squads.

My (and others') question still stands. Why does his name bother you? What reason can there be behind that, if not xenophobia?
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wackadoo
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maccascruff
Oct 12 2008, 05:50 PM
And having seen that hate spewed right here, I also fear for Obama's safety--both between now and the election and after the election. It is a very sad world we live in.

I still can't believe Mary Ann's post. My last name may sound American, whatever that is, but it's origins are from England.

Mary Ann, does your post mean that a Hispanic cannot be president? All of our names, except for Native American names, did not originate in this country.

I am still so offended and angry by that post. I can't believe I read it here and that I think she is serious. :(

Even my Rush Limbaugh loving former boss never came up with anything as hateful as this post.
Why can't we talk without getting so angry? I only mentioned the names in light of 911. I guess having a president with Hussein in his name is a bit scarey and Obama and Osama are so close, it makes me uneasy. I find it hard to believe that no one else was just a little uneasy with that. If I offended you Linda, I am sorry. I didn't want to do that. I should have left that comment out.

I actually like the idea of having an African American president but I don't want one who is racist. I hope he isn't but some of his connections in the past are very questionable.

I live in an area that is more Hispanic than Caucasian and I don't have a problem with that. I teach with many wonderful Hispanic people, I live next door to a wonderful Hispanic family, and I am in love with the young Hispanic girl who lives with us. Do I have a problem with a Hispanic president? Of course not, as long as he or she didn't have ties with radical organizations or people. That's my point.














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Bill
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wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 03:23 PM
I only mentioned the names in light of 911.
How are they connected?

Quote:
 
I guess having a president with Hussein in his name is a bit scarey

Why?
Quote:
 
and Obama and Osama are so close, it makes me uneasy.

Again, why?
Quote:
 
I find it hard to believe that no one else was just a little uneasy with that.

You're saying it's hard to believe that more people don't make irrational connections?

Reality check:
Eisenhower is a German name.
Did people vote against him because of his name, just seven years after World War 2?

All due respect Maryanne, but you're not thinking like an adult.
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wackadoo
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Bill...I watch various news channels all the time. I don't recall getting any emails of that nature. I would probably delete them because I don't like getting 'spam.'

The connection with Ayers and the other ones I mentioned are things that have been reported and that's why I did my research on it. I have done reading on McCain and I see him as an American hero whose father was an Admiral in our armed forces. At this point of life and all that our country has endured in recent years, he seems like the safest choice.
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Bill
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John McCain has admitted that his North Vietnamese captors broke him.

You could try to use that as evidence that McCain has secretly switched sides and is really out to destroy America.

But nobody has, because that would be STUPID.
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wackadoo
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Bill
Oct 13 2008, 03:30 PM
wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 03:23 PM
I only mentioned the names in light of 911.
How are they connected?

Quote:
 
I guess having a president with Hussein in his name is a bit scarey

Why?
Quote:
 
and Obama and Osama are so close, it makes me uneasy.

Again, why?
Quote:
 
I find it hard to believe that no one else was just a little uneasy with that.

You're saying it's hard to believe that more people don't make irrational connections?

Reality check:
Eisenhower is a German name.
Did people vote against him because of his name, just seven years after World War 2?

All due respect Maryanne, but you're not thinking like an adult.
Thanks for your insult to my adult like qualities. Why I would be willing to bet that I'm old enough to be your mother. Go to your room!!!

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Bill
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wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 03:33 PM
Bill...I watch various news channels all the time. I don't recall getting any emails of that nature. I would probably delete them because I don't like getting 'spam.'

The connection with Ayers and the other ones I mentioned are things that have been reported and that's why I did my research on it. I have done reading on McCain and I see him as an American hero whose father was an Admiral in our armed forces. At this point of life and all that our country has endured in recent years, he seems like the safest choice.
Where was it reported? Give me one guess!

So what if McCain's father was an admiral? Is this an election or a royal ascendency?
If you like McCain for being McCain, then good for you. But please stop talking crap about Obama. His name sounds like Osama? Is that all you've got? Is that the worst thing you can say about him?
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Bill
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wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 03:37 PM
Thanks for your insult to my adult like qualities. Why I would be willing to bet that I'm old enough to be your mother. Go to your room!!!

Age has nothing to do with maturity. If you think someone is dangerous just because their name sounds like someone else's, that's an indication or poor reasoning. It's nothing personal. If I have done you an injustice, you could answer some of my questions to show me where I'm wrong.
Edited by Bill, Oct 13 2008, 03:41 PM.
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wackadoo
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Likewise...

I must say, Bill, that I admire your passion in our politics. If we had more of it in our own country, I think things would be better. I think you care more than most of our own voters. Out of curiosity, are you as involved in other countries' politics as you are in ours?
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If I answer that question, will you answer one of mine? :P

I'm interested in democracy in general, but it seems clear that a lot of American voters don't understand what an effect their choice has on the rest of the world.

I'm sure I don't need to tell you that there's a global economic crisis going on at the moment. It's going to effect everyone. Where did that start and why? It wasn't Brussells and it wasn't Hong Kong. The Bush administration allowed the market to run wild and now that the whole world is going to suffer for it, we're left here looking at people who are going to vote for the guy who said the economy was fine just a couple of days before it shat itself, and all because he doesn't have a foreign sounding name.

No offence, but that doesn't make a whole bunch of people with no say in the matter, think particularly kindly towards your country.
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otlset

maccascruff
Oct 12 2008, 04:14 AM
I never thought that you were capable of this kind of hate.
:-/

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otlset

Love Sculpture
Oct 12 2008, 04:53 AM
It's 2008 and it's very frustrating to see people full of prejudice like you.

:(

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otlset

maccascruff
Oct 12 2008, 05:50 PM
And having seen that hate spewed right here...

I still can't believe Mary Ann's post.

I am still so offended and angry by that post. I can't believe I read it here and that I think she is serious. :(

Even my Rush Limbaugh loving former boss never came up with anything as hateful as this post.
:pinch:

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beatlechick
Oct 12 2008, 06:25 PM
some of his best friends were members of the KKK, you remember them - killing blacks and anyone they did not agree with?
:huh:

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BlueMolly2008
Oct 12 2008, 09:04 PM
WOW, Maryann, I didn't know you had so much hate in you. But that's a typical McCain supporter, I guess. Look how McCain is running his campaign? He's full of hate.
:angry:

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A point well taken. Yes, it seems that our current situation is affecting everyone everywhere. I just don't see how one man could possibly be responsible for all of this devastation.

Wasn't it the democrats who sponsored Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae to encourage approving loans for people who weren't qualified for the loans? The majority of the Senate are democrats and haven't they been responsible for pushing these sub prime loans? This is why the economy is so screwed up. Major banks throughout the world are failing due to the fact that people are walking away from these loans. Right now, lenders are not loaning money which is affecting business throughout the world and causing instability in our stock market. It is frightening times for all.

I can't contiue this discussion until later. I'm heading to the mountains to escape from all this madness. I'll be back tomorrow. If you need me, send up a flare!!! Just kidding. :wacko:
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wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 03:23 PM
Why can't we talk without getting so angry?














:unsure:

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otlset

wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 04:29 PM
Wasn't it the democrats who sponsored Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae to encourage approving loans for people who weren't qualified for the loans? The majority of the Senate are democrats and haven't they been responsible for pushing these sub prime loans?
Don't go there. You'll be called a racist.

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Maryann, thanks for your explanations. Don't feel like you're being crucified because you wrote what you think. This message board is a democratic place. Don't think we hate you because we disagree with your views. We are friends here and your friends too. You're not the only one who is scared about Obama. Many people in USA are, I believe, that's sad, in my opinion, because there is generalisation in people's mind. Not all Muslims are terrorists and Obama is not a Muslim. I was born in a country where 70%, 80% of people are catholic and I am not catholic.

It's hard to predict the future. Nobody knows what will happen if Obama or McCain become the president of USA. We're just guessing.

There's generalisation in your comments, that's why people are bothered like I am. Not all Muslims are terrorists. George W. Bush is not a Muslin and look at his government...

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wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 04:29 PM
A point well taken. Yes, it seems that our current situation is affecting everyone everywhere. I just don't see how one man could possibly be responsible for all of this devastation.

Wasn't it the democrats who sponsored Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae to encourage approving loans for people who weren't qualified for the loans? The majority of the Senate are democrats and haven't they been responsible for pushing these sub prime loans? This is why the economy is so screwed up. Major banks throughout the world are failing due to the fact that people are walking away from these loans. Right now, lenders are not loaning money which is affecting business throughout the world and causing instability in our stock market. It is frightening times for all.

I can't contiue this discussion until later. I'm heading to the mountains to escape from all this madness. I'll be back tomorrow. If you need me, send up a flare!!! Just kidding. :wacko:
I don't think other countries will be so affected. China won't stop growing. South American countries won't stop growing. The Dollar is getting stronger, thanks God.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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I don't think that your very recent contributions to this thread are helpful nor add to the debate, otlset.

I can understand the way that people reacted to Mary Ann's post but I personally favour the responses that went closer to asking questions of why she feels that way and questioning the logic of some of the issues she raised - such as the name.

If this whole financial crisis was simply about sub-prime mortgages (for which both parties have to take blame), then we'd be most of the way towards fixing this problem, but it is a lot more than simply lending financially insolvent people money. The whole system is fatally flawed, with too many people at the top creaming obscene amounts of money out of most huge businesses leaving the average worker earning not enough money to keep in the black and pay all of their bills.

A top down economy only works if you filter down enough money so that everyone can afford all of the goods and services they need. If that doesn't happen, then people will live beyond their means and, eventually, we hit the meltdown you see now. It is lack of regulation, greed and excess profiteering which has caused this crisis and the sub-prime mortgage business is a symptom, it's not the disease.

Part of the reason an Obama Presidency would help get the country back on its feet is because he believes in helping the 'little' person, financially. The middle classes. McCain still, foolishly, worshipping at the altar of Reagan and Bush, believes in giving the richest people in the country the biggest tax breaks. It doesn't make sense - and yet, when you say that, people who favour this approach try to explain it to you like you're simple. I've heard all of the explanations, all of the theories - it doesn't make sense and it doesn't work. The current financial markets are living proof. Give the money back to the people who buy the goods and services and let them earn enough so that their lives aren't a constant struggle.
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wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 03:53 PM
Out of curiosity, are you as involved in other countries' politics as you are in ours?
the answer is no. other countries don't affect australian economy.
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http://worldmeets.us/oglobo000073.shtml

Obama and McCain: The Incredible Shrinking Candidates
By William Waack
Translated By Brandi Miller

September 22, 2008

O Globo - Original Article (Portuguese)

There's nothing that Obama or McCain can do except wait with hands tied for their time to assume office. It's possible that the next four years are being decided now, in conversations between the Treasury Secretary (who is seeking extraordinary powers for himself and his successor) and Congress - eloquent proof of this is the resistance of Democrats to the package now being offered by Bush.
Even if the details of this government salvation end up being approved by consensus (and the markets, at this moment [Monday], showed that they didn’t believe it would be), it is impossible to run away from the essential point: the next American president will have to save a lot and spend little (forget the promise of tax cuts that were even made - even by Obama himself).
At this stage in the election campaign, neither of the two seem willing to admit that he'll be obliged to demand sacrifices from the people - and after a very hard period - will have to ask for even more sacrifices. For more than a decade, Americans have become used to living beyond their means, and up to now have been financed by the entire world. The disorder that the crisis is creating is such that the next president will probably have no reply to the question on everyone's lips: Are you taking over the government of a country in inexorable decline, or conversely, does this crisis presage another round of technological innovation (energy, for example) and the absorption of brains from around the world?
It's important to note here that China and others at no time have seemed interested in “sinking” a rival. The difference between this and the Great Depression of the last century, at least in the minds of the major players, is that the notion of a defeat for one being a victory for another doesn't exist. In other words, it's a globalized economy - in which the role of nation states remain important, simply because the reordering of the international financial system depends on governments.
In the short term, the costs that the American government will have to absorb to put together a rescue package will very likely accelerate the departure of U.S. troops from Iraq. It will not depend on the willingness of McCain or Obama, (who incidentally have displayed few differences about the facts, even before the financial catastrophe of September 2008). But it will be up to them to display the kind of political leadership that has been so rare historically.
The classic example of this comes from their own country.
After the Great Depression, Franklin Roosevelt went down in history as the president who managed to combine long-term vision with short-term political expediency. Obama and McCain are confronting exactly the same challenge: to understand the scope and depth of the crisis, separate what counts in the long term and face an arduous period of severe difficulties.
For now, both seem small in confronting this cataclysm.
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otlset

JeffLynnesBeard
Oct 13 2008, 04:54 PM
I don't think that your very recent contributions to this thread are helpful nor add to the debate, otlset.

Good thing it's only an opinion board. :)

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beatlechick
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wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 04:29 PM
I can't contiue this discussion until later. I'm heading to the mountains to escape from all this madness. I'll be back tomorrow. If you need me, send up a flare!!! Just kidding. :wacko:
Maryann, you really are flaming the fires now. With all the winds we are having and you're asking for a flare? Oh yeah, hopefully you're not going on the 210. I think it's still closed due to the fire.

Be good my friend. Thank you for the compliment. I hate bringing up bad things about people unless they were warranted. There is much going on in this race but again if we were to dig in anyone's closet, we would find people of dubious thoughts and deeds.
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otlset
Oct 13 2008, 04:41 PM
wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 04:29 PM
Wasn't it the democrats who sponsored Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae to encourage approving loans for people who weren't qualified for the loans? The majority of the Senate are democrats and haven't they been responsible for pushing these sub prime loans?
Don't go there. You'll be called a racist.
No racism there. Why fan the flames when there is so much anger going on? I think you need to read the news story that I quoted yesterday about FNMA and FHLMC.
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Oct 13 2008, 04:54 PM
wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 03:53 PM
Out of curiosity, are you as involved in other countries' politics as you are in ours?
the answer is no. other countries don't affect australian economy.
Yes, it does Michelle.
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otlset

Bill
Oct 10 2008, 04:18 PM
No, it stemmed from people being purged from the rolls on the grounds that they were felons, except that the overwhelming majority of them weren't. In fact, most of them were purged merely for having a similar sounding name to a felon. By the time anyone figured out what had happened, the election was over and thousands of people had been denied their right to vote. Most of them happened to be from predominantly Democratic areas. Coincidence?
More on felons voting in Florida...

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-flbfelons1012sboct12,0,3762352.story

Hope this is helpful and adds to the debate.

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beatlechick
Oct 13 2008, 05:19 PM
Love Sculpture
Oct 13 2008, 04:54 PM
wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 03:53 PM
Out of curiosity, are you as involved in other countries' politics as you are in ours?
the answer is no. other countries don't affect australian economy.
Yes, it does Michelle.
I don't think Burindi's economy affects Australian economy and I don't think Bill knows anything about that country and I don't blame him for that. I don't know anything about Burundi too. Some foreing know more about USA than many Americans. Interesting fact. It's a mix of love and hate.
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wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 03:23 PM
maccascruff
Oct 12 2008, 05:50 PM
And having seen that hate spewed right here, I also fear for Obama's safety--both between now and the election and after the election. It is a very sad world we live in.

I still can't believe Mary Ann's post. My last name may sound American, whatever that is, but it's origins are from England.

Mary Ann, does your post mean that a Hispanic cannot be president? All of our names, except for Native American names, did not originate in this country.

I am still so offended and angry by that post. I can't believe I read it here and that I think she is serious. :(

Even my Rush Limbaugh loving former boss never came up with anything as hateful as this post.
Why can't we talk without getting so angry? I only mentioned the names in light of 911. I guess having a president with Hussein in his name is a bit scarey and Obama and Osama are so close, it makes me uneasy. I find it hard to believe that no one else was just a little uneasy with that. If I offended you Linda, I am sorry. I didn't want to do that. I should have left that comment out.

I actually like the idea of having an African American president but I don't want one who is racist. I hope he isn't but some of his connections in the past are very questionable.

I live in an area that is more Hispanic than Caucasian and I don't have a problem with that. I teach with many wonderful Hispanic people, I live next door to a wonderful Hispanic family, and I am in love with the young Hispanic girl who lives with us. Do I have a problem with a Hispanic president? Of course not, as long as he or she didn't have ties with radical organizations or people. That's my point.
















I also wrote many posts in response to your post, which I have sent to the Obama campaign. You chose to respond to only the last one and not answer all the other questions I raised. I asked if you wrote the post or if it came from some right wing blog, etc. I have now found out that it did.

I did my research on Obama a long time ago. Obama is not Osama. That should be clear by now. Obama has been in this race for two years. Nobody should be claiming ignorance on that idea. You are an intelligent person, so please stop confusing the two.

What is wrong with casting a vote for a man named Barack Hussein Obama. Obama had nothing to do with 9/11. Nothing. He is not a Muslim and has no ties to al queda.

The anger came from your original post. It was full of hate, Mary Ann. That cannot be denied.
Edited by maccascruff, Oct 13 2008, 06:28 PM.
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wackadoo
Oct 12 2008, 01:55 AM
Doesn't it bother anyone else besides me that he has not one, not two, but 3 non American names? And please...don't play the racist card with me.
3 points:

He is American. Born. Raised. Blood. There is no two ways about it. John Smith is more American than Proud Hawk from this twisted perspective.

Does America pride itself on being a land of many origins or not?

My name is not American. I would assume that means the idea of someone with the same name leading the nation is scary to you if I didn't know what you really meant by "non American".

See you all in another few months!
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BlueMolly2008
Oct 12 2008, 09:04 PM
But that's a typical McCain supporter, I guess. Look how McCain is running his campaign? He's full of hate. People don't want to admit it, but a lot of McCain supporters are racists, because what they are saying about Obama.
I take offense to this! :nono:
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Oct 12 2008, 06:15 PM
BeatleBarb
Oct 12 2008, 06:10 PM
Thanks for that, Linda.
Somebody in my Colorado for Obama group sent it to me. I know I needed it. I didn't sleep well at all last night after reading that post. Couldn't believe what I was reading.
At the end I was waiting for, "I'm Barack Obama, and I approve this message." :whistle:
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Oct 13 2008, 05:19 AM
LapisLee
Oct 12 2008, 03:18 AM
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Yes, whoever created that really is desperate.
And frankly I am disappointed in seeing that some people here will still post pictures like this. What would the reaction be if I started posting mocking pictures of Obama and Biden? :ponder:
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Oct 12 2008, 01:55 AM
Doesn't it bother anyone else besides me that he has not one, not two, but 3 non American names? And please...don't play the racist card with me.


Mary Ann, I find it hard to understand why you don't comprehend why people would be angry about this statement.

It is definitely provocative. You are implying that there is something bad, wrong, unAmerican about having the name Barack Hussein Obama. I happen to personally be distressed at this opinion as my daughter's middle name is Yifu, which is Chinese. By your standards, she is suspect, though of what I am not completely clear. You are also implying that those with "non-American" names are potentially not fit for the Presidential office, but why, again, I don't know.

Calling up the specter of 9/11 still does not make your case clear. Obama, very obviously, had nothing to do with that situation.

The way I view it, people are usually not responsible for their names, most having been given them by their parents. Obama was named for his father, who actually had very little to do with the raising of his son. As for me, I actually try to base my judgments about political candidates on their actions and accomplishments, not their given names.

It is the passing on of ideas like this which fuel the fire of fear and ugly reactionary mob behavior that has been present at McCain/Palin rallies recently, where their supporters have been calling Obama a "traitor" who should be killed.

That, in my opinion, is unAmerican (or at least it should be) and bothers me more than anything.
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otlset

maccascruff
Oct 13 2008, 06:21 PM
The anger came from your original post. It was full of hate, Mary Ann. That cannot be denied.
There is a notable difference between hate, and suspicion. I saw only the latter in Mary Ann's post, no hate, and feel compelled to defend her here.

MY great fear about Obama supporters is contained in the following opinion piece new today. He explains it better than I could...

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/13/the-coming-thugocracy/print/

And I'd like to add, I'm extremely offended, by the hateful Palin flow-chart shown at the bottom of your posts.

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MaccaByrd
Oct 13 2008, 08:54 PM
wackadoo
Oct 12 2008, 01:55 AM
Doesn't it bother anyone else besides me that he has not one, not two, but 3 non American names? And please...don't play the racist card with me.
3 points:

He is American. Born. Raised. Blood. There is no two ways about it. John Smith is more American than Proud Hawk from this twisted perspective.

Does America pride itself on being a land of many origins or not?

My name is not American. I would assume that means the idea of someone with the same name leading the nation is scary to you if I didn't know what you really meant by "non American".

See you all in another few months!
Hi Fiona!! so glad to see you back here. Hope your job is secure at the bank. Since I have been on disability leave for the past 2 weeks, 3 jobs were lost. Not enough money or work.

Just tried calling Maryann, as we have a large fire going on wanted to make sure they are okay. Just seeing the fire is not very far from her house, as a matter of fact when we went to dinner we were on one of the streets that have been evacuate. She did say they were going to the mountains and I hope she is there and not at home. Like I said I did try calling but could only leave a message on her cell phone.

I will continue calling and hopefully get a hold of her.

What she said, and what I have heard others say (not so much here) does concern me. So much ignorance is out there.
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Oct 13 2008, 08:59 PM
BlueMolly2008
Oct 12 2008, 09:04 PM
But that's a typical McCain supporter, I guess. Look how McCain is running his campaign? He's full of hate. People don't want to admit it, but a lot of McCain supporters are racists, because what they are saying about Obama.
I take offense to this! :nono:
As do I.
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otlset
Oct 13 2008, 09:59 PM
maccascruff
Oct 13 2008, 06:21 PM
The anger came from your original post. It was full of hate, Mary Ann. That cannot be denied.
There is a notable difference between hate, and suspicion. I saw only the latter in Mary Ann's post, no hate, and feel compelled to defend her here.

MY great fear about Obama supporters is contained in the following opinion piece new today. He explains it better than I could...

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/13/the-coming-thugocracy/print/

And I'd like to add, I'm extremely offended, by the hateful Palin flow-chart shown at the bottom of your posts.
Two thoughts:

1. I didn't see "hate" in MaryAnn's post either; rather I saw the uncertainty (or some may call it "fear") of someone whose name is of Islamic origin. Of course we all have names that represent our heritage; I think that in and of itself is not the issue. The fear/questions comes as a result of the possible connection to those who would harm our freedoms. I think that we all know by now that Obama is not connected to Islamic terrorism; however you can't deny that his affiliation with Ayers hasn't put a question mark in many people's minds. So in essence, I don't see MaryAnn's remarks as being hateful because she's obviously not a hateful person. It's hard to sometimes express our fears and thoughts with the written word without being judged harshly.


2. Interesting article from the Washington Post. ;)

Funny that I was thinking of this example just as I was reading the article....
"Corporate liberals have done their share in shutting down anti-liberal speech, too. "Saturday Night Live" ran a spoof of the financial crisis that skewered Democrats like House Financial Services Chairman Barney Frank and liberal contributors Herbert and Marion Sandler, who sold toxic-waste-filled Golden West to Wachovia Bank for $24 billion. Kind of surprising, but not for long. The tape of the broadcast disappeared from NBC's Web site and was replaced with another that omitted the references to Mr. Frank and the Sandlers. Evidently NBC and its parent, General Electric, don't want people to hear speech that attacks liberals."

On SNL, the continued parodies and mockings of the likes of Sarah Palin still abound, but the ones regarding anything "Democratic" conveniently disappear or are edited... :ponder:
Another thought about that...I have yet to see a SNL parody of Obama making him look like a dumbass... :blink:
Edited by Bag O' Nails, Oct 13 2008, 10:48 PM.
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otlset
Oct 13 2008, 09:59 PM
There is a notable difference between hate, and suspicion. I saw only the latter in Mary Ann's post, no hate, and feel compelled to defend her here.
This assessment I concur with.
Edited by fab4fan, Oct 13 2008, 10:50 PM.
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beatlechick
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otlset
Oct 13 2008, 09:59 PM
maccascruff
Oct 13 2008, 06:21 PM
The anger came from your original post. It was full of hate, Mary Ann. That cannot be denied.
There is a notable difference between hate, and suspicion. I saw only the latter in Mary Ann's post, no hate, and feel compelled to defend her here.

MY great fear about Obama supporters is contained in the following opinion piece new today. He explains it better than I could...

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/13/the-coming-thugocracy/print/

And I'd like to add, I'm extremely offended, by the hateful Palin flow-chart shown at the bottom of your posts.
And is the reason why Obama's campaign has asked for people like that to cool it. I see you generalized us Obama supporters. Not a good thing to do.


Just talked to Maryann and they are evacuating. They were on their way to the mountains when she got a panicked call from her daughter who go busy packing their cars. She and her husband have 2 cars packed, Maryann and Garry have arrived back home and are preparing to go to her son's house just a few miles away. This news is what is more important to me at the moment than the presidential race.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/livenow?id=6446487
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beatlechick
Oct 13 2008, 10:52 PM



Just talked to Maryann and they are evacuating. They were on their way to the mountains when she got a panicked call from her daughter who go busy packing their cars. She and her husband have 2 cars packed, Maryann and Garry have arrived back home and are preparing to go to her son's house just a few miles away. This news is what is more important to me at the moment than the presidential race.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/livenow?id=6446487
And to me, too!

Keep us informed about Maryann, Cathy! Tell her we're keeping her and the situation in our thoughts and prayers!!
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A couple of other points along this vein:

There have been posts calling for the assassination of Bush on this forum. Took a bit to get them removed.

All through the primary season I pointed out very many ignorant things the Clinton campaign was doing. Very little (Bill, perhaps Cathy) outrage on this board then.

Two wrongs don't make a right, not arguing with the comments concerning the name thing, just saying compared to lack of righteousness during the HATE/assassination thread perhaps we're being a bit dramatic in response to Maryann's list of concerns.
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beatlechick
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fab4fan
Oct 13 2008, 10:58 PM
All through the primary season I pointed out very many ignorant things the Clinton campaign was doing. Very little (Bill, perhaps Cathy) outrage on this board then.

Maybe it's because we expected those ignorant things, mainly from Bill.

Heidi, I will do my best. She did tell me that they are going to their son's house in Chatsworth. I know that her house will be okay, they are mainly in an evacuation area due to the thick heavy smoke but there is fire behind her house about a mile or so away. Her son's home is bound to be pretty smoky there too. I live just about 9 miles away from her but the freeway that connects us is completely closed due to the fire. Between this and another fire there have been at least 2 deaths one a homeless person and another a head-on collision near the closed freeway. The collision happened due to smoke. Maryann did see that car as it was towed away. She said it was very badly damaged. No telling how many homes have been damaged or destroyed but at least a dozen or so are gone.
Edited by beatlechick, Oct 13 2008, 11:06 PM.
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fab4fan
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Had to comment on ThirdHarmony's post. (Which by the way are always a pleasure to read. Amazing how in tune some people are with the American political process. As someone else said, more Americans should be like Bill, Andy, (well to a point :P ;) ) and ThirdHarmony.)

The 60 Senator thing is huge! And scary! It is the first thing that is giving me pause about voting for Obama. Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi with carte blanche. No wonder the market is tanking.
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Bill
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wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 04:29 PM
A point well taken. Yes, it seems that our current situation is affecting everyone everywhere. I just don't see how one man could possibly be responsible for all of this devastation.

Wasn't it the democrats who sponsored Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae to encourage approving loans for people who weren't qualified for the loans? The majority of the Senate are democrats and haven't they been responsible for pushing these sub prime loans? This is why the economy is so screwed up. Major banks throughout the world are failing due to the fact that people are walking away from these loans. Right now, lenders are not loaning money which is affecting business throughout the world and causing instability in our stock market. It is frightening times for all.
Who controlled Congress and the Senate between 1994 and 2006? Who controlled the White House since 2001? The Republicans had complete, unfettered control of the federal government for six years. And you want to blame it all on the Democrats? That's just lame.

So you don't believe one man could be responsible? You need to research the role of president. And if you still believe he doesn't have that much influence, then that negates all the fear you've been pedalling about Obama.
Put a puppet on it.
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Bill
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otlset
Oct 13 2008, 04:41 PM
wackadoo
Oct 13 2008, 04:29 PM
Wasn't it the democrats who sponsored Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae to encourage approving loans for people who weren't qualified for the loans? The majority of the Senate are democrats and haven't they been responsible for pushing these sub prime loans?
Don't go there. You'll be called a racist.
Grow up. :roll:
Put a puppet on it.
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Bill
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otlset
Oct 13 2008, 05:47 PM
Bill
Oct 10 2008, 04:18 PM
No, it stemmed from people being purged from the rolls on the grounds that they were felons, except that the overwhelming majority of them weren't. In fact, most of them were purged merely for having a similar sounding name to a felon. By the time anyone figured out what had happened, the election was over and thousands of people had been denied their right to vote. Most of them happened to be from predominantly Democratic areas. Coincidence?
More on felons voting in Florida...

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-flbfelons1012sboct12,0,3762352.story

Hope this is helpful and adds to the debate.
They're just setting up the purge again.

I've got nothing against ineligible voters being purged - I have something against tens of thousands of people who did nothing wrong being purged along with them just because they had a similar name. (There's that similar name problem again).
Put a puppet on it.
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