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2008 U.S. Presidential Election
Topic Started: Feb 22 2007, 05:49 AM (37,420 Views)
Rose
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Well, here's another clue for you all, the Walrus was Paul...
BeatleBarb
Oct 8 2008, 03:25 AM
Yes, Bill - Obama exhibits a presidential temperament - calm, cool and confident (sounds like a deoderant ad :P ) assertive, but not aggressive or rattled. I think this is very important. I don't like "in your face" antics. He never seems really rattled or thrown off course.
I was thinking much the same thing while watching the debate. :sweet:

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"I'm in awe of McCartney. He's about the only one that I am in awe of. He can do it all. And he's never let up... He's just so damn effortless." ~ Bob Dylan
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Bill
Oct 8 2008, 02:50 AM
Well Heidi, you really need to go back and read what I've said about McCain in the past, and also pay close attention to the part of my comment that you didn't bold. It's only McCain's behaviour over the last 18 months that has made me lose respect for him.

I was working with Mia's premise. If Obama threw away his principles the way McCain has, and McCain didn't, then I'd support McCain. That's just common sense.



I'd be interested to know your answer to Mia's hypothetical question.
In all honesty, Bill, I'd have to go back and research what you've said in the past about McCain; as of now I don't know where to look :duh: But after reading your second paragraph above, I think I now understand what you were saying. ;) So much is said that sometimes it can get a little confusing to remember... :wacko:

My answer to Mia's hypothetical question...I would probably still vote McCain/Biden.
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Does Sarah Palin Believe in the End Times? (10:55)
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beatlechick
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otlset
Oct 7 2008, 07:27 PM
Heh heh, you guys should welcome my "diversity" to the board! -_-. My "culture" is as valid as yours is!

I realized some would consider my views, based on my own life's experiences, as condescending. Yet it is difficult to express it any other way. I like directness.

And really, to me what I wrote of my experience was not NEARLY as condescending as Obama has been to those who would like to know about his relationship (as an indication of character, which can shed light on what he might do once he's in office) when he describes William Ayers as:

"just a guy from the neighborhood".

Really.
To be honest and straightforward with you, I prefer a good discussion/debate over condescending remarks like "the innocents." I have plenty of life experience to go around the world a few times. I am not so innocent and have learned much in my lifetime. As for William Ayers, Obama has made no bones about meeting him in the 90's some 25 years or so after Ayers was a Weather Underground person and some. They have never been associates, like the McCain camp is leading you to believe.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-ayers7-2008oct07,0,1083099.story

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Barack Obama's connection to William Ayers
John McCain's running mate says the Democrat's judgment is suspect if he would 'pal around with terrorists.'

October 7, 2008


Obama's connection to a former radical
The issue: Barack Obama is acquainted with William Ayers, a University of Illinois at Chicago professor who in 1969 co-founded the radical Weather Underground and helped plant bombs, including one at the U.S. Capitol. After spending the 1970s on the run, he turned himself in. Federal prosecutors later dropped charges because of illegal surveillance and other misconduct.

Ayers, 63, is an education professor who has worked to improve Chicago schools and counts Mayor Richard M. Daley among his defenders.

Obama was a child when the Weather Underground was active; he and Ayers became acquainted in 1995. That year, as Obama embarked on his first Illinois state Senate run, Ayers and his wife, Weather Underground co-founder Bernardine Dohrn, hosted a house party to introduce him to Democrats. Ayers later gave Obama a $200 campaign donation. They served on two philanthropic boards together.

Obama has described Ayers as a "guy" he knows from his neighborhood and someone with whom he served on boards, but not one of his advisors.

Why the McCain campaign says it matters: Obama's decision to associate with Ayers raises questions about his judgment. McCain's running mate, Sarah Palin, has said that Obama is someone who would "pal around with terrorists," and that Obama "sees America as imperfect enough to work with a former domestic terrorist who targeted his own country."

Why the Obama campaign says it doesn't matter: Obama is not close to Ayers. McCain is focusing on Ayers "to cover up McCain's erratic response to the most urgent economic crisis facing our nation since the Great Depression," said Obama spokesman Ben LaBolt.

Source: Dan Morain, Times staff writer

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beatlechick
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scottycatt
Oct 8 2008, 12:46 AM
ThirdHarmony
Oct 7 2008, 10:20 PM
A bit of silliness in the midst of all the anxiety surrounding the financial crisis crept into the local news here today. They were talking about the recent Gallup study which showed only 9% of Americans are pleased with the current situation. A typo resulted in the accidental omission of the "% of" - causing the following statement:

"...only 9 Americans are pleased with the current situation."

I don't think that was a typo. ;) :no:

Those 9 are the CEOs who bailed out with their golden parachutes before the rest of us got stuck with the bill. :nono:
Or the 9% of the AIG personnel that took a vacation the week after the $85 Billion Bailout. That vacation cost $440,000! $7,000 in green fees and about $10,000 in spa treatments (if I remember that part right). I was appalled to learn that one of their consultants that is based in London, where their trouble started, has been getting paid $1,000,000 a month and still is!. At last count, as of the hearings this morning, he has taken for pay a paltry $36,000,000 for the past 3 years! I hope the letter Rep. Henry Waxman gets through to the appropriate people stating that the American taxpayer should not be paying his salary! No kidding!
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beatlechick
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BeatleBarb
Oct 8 2008, 03:07 AM
I had less patience with this debate for some reason. I felt McCain was campaigning rather than debating. Enough of the rhetorical "my friends" crap. I felt Obama warmed up as he went along and I appreciated his answers on prioritizing issues, rather than the expected McCain response of saying we can work on it all at once. And if the social security issue is so fixable according to McCain, why hasn't he spoken up before about it before?
I hear ya! Again McCain states that he knows how to get bin Laden. Again, I have to ask, why the hell don't you let someone know how to do it so that more bloodshed does not have to happen?!? I liked Obama's prioritizing, too, but thought that healthcare should've been top priority. I expected McCain to continue on with the "My friends" crap but my boyfriend was getting irritated with it. It's just how he is, like LBJ constantly saying "My fellow Americans" with every speech he made.
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I really truly thought McCain would dominate the foreign affairs portion of the debate and he did very well with the question about Russia, as evidenced by Obama agreeing with him, but he still doesn't get it why invading and occupying Iraq for the forseeable future is a bad idea and does not address any relevant security issues for the US. I also thought he would do well in the town hall-style debate forum, but he got right up in the first questioner's face, he limped around like he was a 100 years old, faced away from the camera half the time, went over the time limit as much or more than Obama, the talkative one, and referred to Obama as 'that one'. He also ran out of the town hall after the debate, without even shaking Obama's hand, while Obama stuck around and shook everyone's hand, let them all take pics of themselves with him and even addressed the Petty Officer's concerns personally at length.
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beatlechick
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Damn, I wished I watched this today (I was watching the Congressional hearing with the AIG CEO's).

Elizabeth Hasselbeck brings up Obama and Ayers on the View

Damn Sherri, you struck quick!

Love you Whoopi! Happy Birthday Joy!

I LOVE YOU BARBARA WALTERS! Maybe you should be the VP candidate and tell the mudslingers to shut the f*ck up!

Elizabeth, you've got a future with Fox.

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Bill
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The Ayers thing is old news. If Clinton couldn't make that stick then Palin has no hope.

But if we're going to play guilt-by-association, then that means someone is going to have to explain why McCain was "pallin' around" in the 80s with an ultra-right organisation called The U.S. Council for World Freedom which is linked the the Iran-contra affair, and whose head is linked with Nazi sympathisers and central American death squads.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081007/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_iran_contra;_ylt=AqgM9KUOi.rRzUrNzF_bi6ph24cA

And the difference is that McCain was pallin' around with these creeps while they were doing it!


* This is the cue for Republicans to turn around and say Stop talking about the past, let's focus in issues that effect people today.

I'll play by whatever rules you decide. :P
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beatlechick
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LapisLee
Oct 8 2008, 04:14 AM
I really truly thought McCain would dominate the foreign affairs portion of the debate and he did very well with the question about Russia, as evidenced by Obama agreeing with him, but he still doesn't get it why invading and occupying Iraq for the forseeable future is a bad idea and does not address any relevant security issues for the US. I also thought he would do well in the town hall-style debate forum, but he got right up in the first questioner's face, he limped around like he was a 100 years old, faced away from the camera half the time, went over the time limit as much or more than Obama, the talkative one, and referred to Obama as 'that one'. He also ran out of the town hall after the debate, without even shaking Obama's hand, while Obama stuck around and shook everyone's hand, let them all take pics of themselves with him and even addressed the Petty Officer's concerns personally at length.
People were saying that Obama was acting, after the debate, just like Bill Clinton did. I did see McCain acknowledge Michelle, which I thought was nice, but no handshake................Again!
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beatlechick
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Bill, I do believe that being a public servant you have to expect your past life to be brought up. But you also have to expect that the truth comes out and not innuendos.
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fab4fan
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So many comments and so little time. (All quotes are paraphrased.)

Quote:
 
Why are you voting for Obama?

All politics are local. Obama was state senator of the district in which my wife & I own the building that houses her dental practice. (goes to familiarity and not falling for right-wing smear tactics. ;) ) If he becomes President I forsee a "golden age" for Chicago, culminating in his presiding over the 2016 Olympics in the last year of his second term. Sorry to disappoint you with my shallowness.
Another plus of an Obama presidency would be the end of all the left-wing whining! I'm so sick of it that I will vote for him just to get them to shut up. And then at the end of his 8 years, if they haven't changed their own work habits and they still lead miserable pathetic lives I'll be listening for their new excuses. Basically, for me it doesn't matter who is President, God willing I have my health, I will work and I will prosper.

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Bush stole the 2000 election.

Prove it. Repeating a lie over and over again will not make it fact. (I think I just stole one of Bill's mantras. :rofl: ) And yes, Gore was total scum for involving the judiciary. What ever happen to honor among snakes?

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With the market tanking, good thing social security wasn't privatized.

Let's see, under the current system no one is guaranteed benefits. Bush's plan was to allow you, if you wanted to, to OWN up to 15% of your contributions. So even if you just put it in the bank and not in the stock market you would still have more than under the current plan. And the problem with this is? :ponder:

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McCain was disrespectful of Obama in the first debate because he wouldn't look at him.

Sorry Cathy there isn't a way for me to make this comment and keep you anonymous. Lessons in respect from someone who never says President Bush, rather always calling him Dumbya and dumbass. :rofl: I'll have you know I defend your right to call him those things with all my heart. Hope everything is going well post surgery! :hug: (Bet you don't miss me anymore if you did. :rofl: )

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Why if Obama is so great isn't he leading in the polls by more?

Shame on Bill and Andy for goading Linda down this road! SHAME! SHAME! SHAME! :nono: That is so far out there on the fringe of lefty lunacy that you two so-called 'just left of center' (ahem) gentlemen couldn't see the real center with the Hubble telescope. IMHO.

*************************************************************
Random thought about left wing whining. In the 2000 debates candidate Bush said he thought the economy was headed for a recession. The left wing media skewered him for saying that, how talking down the economy was bad for the country. For the last 15 months all we have heard from the same media is we're headed for a recession. As of yet, not one quarter has been in the red, not one of the almost 5 quarters that the drums have been beating for. Does anyone else find this ODD?

*************************************************************
Best bumper stickers I have seen:

Come Help A Newbie Get Elected

McCain 2008
Palin 2009
Mnisthiti mou Kurie!
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Bill
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John, if you can't see that racism is going to play a part in this election, then I'm afraid you have your head in the sand. There are other versions of that sticker you quoted, but the N didn't stand for Newbie. I don't like it any more than you do, but it's out there. It would be naive to pretend it isn't.

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Let's see, under the current system no one is guaranteed benefits. Bush's plan was to allow you, if you wanted to, to OWN up to 15% of your contributions. So even if you just put it in the bank and not in the stock market you would still have more than under the current plan. And the problem with this is? :ponder:


The problem is that most civilised countries in the world have workable social security systems for those who need it. No-one is left behind. Kind of like health care. :whistle:


Candidate Bush also talked about a humble foreign policy. What happened to that?
And please spare me the "liberal media" nonsense! It's the media's job to challenge whatever the politicians say so the idea that they are challenging notions both then and now means they're doing their job!

As usual, Bush was right but only according to the law of unintended consequences. The economy was indeed heading towards recession thanks to a Bush White House and Republican congress. That's what you call a self-fulfilling prophecy! :rofl:


Good to see you here, John. How's your sister?
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Bill
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And yes, Gore was total scum for involving the judiciary.


When someone attempts to subvert democracy by shutting down vote counts, what is the more patriotic thing to do?

I find it curious that people accuse Gore of being a wimp at the same time as criticising him for standing up and fighting.
I know I'm talking about different comments from different people, but it seems to me that some people just want to hate Al Gore for any reason.
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MaccaMomma
fab4fan
Oct 8 2008, 04:53 AM
So many comments and so little time. (All quotes are paraphrased.)

Quote:
 
Why are you voting for Obama?

All politics are local. Obama was state senator of the district in which my wife & I own the building that houses her dental practice. (goes to familiarity and not falling for right-wing smear tactics. ;) ) If he becomes President I forsee a "golden age" for Chicago, culminating in his presiding over the 2016 Olympics in the last year of his second term. Sorry to disappoint you with my shallowness.
Another plus of an Obama presidency would be the end of all the left-wing whining! I'm so sick of it that I will vote for him just to get them to shut up. And then at the end of his 8 years, if they haven't changed their own work habits and they still lead miserable pathetic lives I'll be listening for their new excuses. Basically, for me it doesn't matter who is President, God willing I have my health, I will work and I will prosper.

John,
Thank you for answering that question that I posed to you waaaaaaay back! :wub: :hug: B)
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MaccaMomma
Only one quick thing to add; I enjoyed the debate tonight. I think both candidates did a very good job! Although I agree with most of McCain's ideas, there are some things that Obama says that I like.

One thing that did ring true was the last question of the evening...and not until they get into the office will we know if things will change...and both candidates promise that! ;)
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beatlechick
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Heidi......Posted Image


Quote:
 
Quote:
McCain was disrespectful of Obama in the first debate because he wouldn't look at him.
Sorry Cathy there isn't a way for me to make this comment and keep you anonymous. Lessons in respect from someone who never says President Bush, rather always calling him Dumbya and dumbass. I'll have you know I defend your right to call him those things with all my heart. Hope everything is going well post surgery! (Bet you don't miss me anymore if you did. )

No problem, John! I don't mind. I still think that McCain should've looked at Obama at least once in that debate. I still go by my statement that he was being disrespectful. I am being kind to Dumbya, there are a lot worse things I can call him and do hear others call him. So I am being respectful for a man who cares little for what I or others think of him or his administration.

Thanks for the good wishes. Unfortunately I get to go back to the hell hole called work next week! At least I still have a job for the time being!
Edited by beatlechick, Oct 8 2008, 07:45 AM.
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BeatleBarb
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What was disrespectful to me was McCain referring to Obama as "that one" and assuming the person in the audience asking a question didn't know who Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were. But McCain made it up to the audience by calling them "my friends" 15 times!
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maccascruff
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BeatleBarb
Oct 8 2008, 04:03 PM
What was disrespectful to me was McCain referring to Obama as "that one" and assuming the person in the audience asking a question didn't know who Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were. But McCain made it up to the audience by calling them "my friends" 15 times!
I agree. I can be totally disrespectful if I want. I am just part of the electorate. I am not running for public office.

I thought I would puke when McCain droned on and on about "My Friends". John McCain, you are not my friend and you never will be.

I liked that Obama mingled with the audience afterwards and spoke to the man who had asked the question. I saw him do a lot of mingling at the rally I attended.

When I was back in Iowa two weeks ago, several of my parents' friends said that when Obama was campaigning there for the caucus and went to every one of their 99 counties at least once, they had all shaken his hand if they had attended an event.
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maccascruff
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London man takes three bullets as Obama supporter

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1070975/Man-shot-times-street-racist-gunman--wearing-Barack-Obama-T-shirt.html?ITO=1490
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maccascruff
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Bill
Oct 8 2008, 03:20 AM
Check out Obama's body language though. He is cool. I'm not talking Fonzie cool, I mean calm and collected. He continued to look at McCain and smile respectfully even when McCain was distorting Obama's words. So many other candidates from both parties would be shaking their heads or rolling their eyes or sulking in some way, but Obama didn't miss a beat. To be fair, McCain didn't do any of that either, but I was impressed at how Obama hasn't flinched no matter what has been thrown at him. To me, that indicates either a cool head, great discipline, or both. Good qualities to have in a leader.
I thought Obama did very well in keeping his cool. He must have wanted to interrupt or roll his eyes or something when McCain was distorting his positions, but he didn't. Now if we can get Palin back to real campaigning instead of trying to rile up people and play to their fears in Florida.
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otlset

beatlechick
Oct 8 2008, 04:01 AM
They have never been associates,

Quote:
 
They served on two philanthropic boards together.



In fact, in 1995 William Ayers won the Chicago area Annenberg Challenge to assist education initiatives financially, and appointed Barack Obama to assign various community organizing groups with financial assistance in that goal. This is much more even than a mere acquaintance, as they served together for years (Obama headed the resultant "education foundation" from 1995 to 1999, again receiving funding from Ayer's efforts all that time) in this relationship.

And Obama accordingly spread the Annenberg gift funds to various communty organizing and activist groups, including ACORN, a radical education organization, now implicated in voter registration fraud in at least a dozen states nationally.

Notice also in the attached link Ayer's picture standing on the American flag, along with the full story and documentation. What there is of it so far, that is...

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/rich-noyes/2008/09/23/barack-obama-bill-ayers-stanley-kurtz-makes-connection

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beatlechick
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otlset
Oct 8 2008, 06:14 PM
beatlechick
Oct 8 2008, 04:01 AM
They have never been associates,

Quote:
 
They served on two philanthropic boards together.



In fact, in 1995 William Ayers won the Chicago area Annenberg Challenge to assist education initiatives financially, and appointed Barack Obama to assign various community organizing groups with financial assistance in that goal. This is much more even than a mere acquaintance, as they served together for years (Obama headed the resultant "education foundation" from 1995 to 1999, again receiving funding from Ayer's efforts all that time) in this relationship.

And Obama accordingly spread the Annenberg gift funds to various communty organizing and activist groups, including ACORN, a radical education organization, now implicated in voter registration fraud in at least a dozen states nationally.

Notice also in the attached link Ayer's picture standing on the American flag, along with the full story and documentation. What there is of it so far, that is...

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/rich-noyes/2008/09/23/barack-obama-bill-ayers-stanley-kurtz-makes-connection
You know you are throwing water where there is no fire. They had 1 WHOLE meeting at Ayer's residence. 1! They may have served on a board together but that does not make them an associates in the same way McCain is trying to lead us believe. Look, Obama before the campaign has said that he did a fundraiser at his house and served on the boards with Ayers so those of us who have been following his campaign very closely for quite awhile, already knew about this. I do not like the terrorist aspect, but I was a bit older than Obama when this all happened. I do remember it and abhor this but then again, I am an American who had to live through Nixon's years.

If this is all that McCain and his people can come up with this late in the game, than I feel sorry for his supporters. He is grasping at straws here.

I am tired of the negativity this campaign, especially the half-truths, has brought out. I thought he was going to run a positive campaign. They both were!
Edited by beatlechick, Oct 8 2008, 07:12 PM.
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otlset

Bill
Oct 8 2008, 05:08 AM
John, if you can't see that racism is going to play a part in this election, then I'm afraid you have your head in the sand. There are other versions of that sticker you quoted, but the N didn't stand for Newbie. I don't like it any more than you do, but it's out there. It would be naive to pretend it isn't.
Not speaking for John here, but I sure hope racism isn't going to play a part in this campaign.

Yes, I am hoping the race card does not get played, with all the social explosiveness that can result. Yet recently my hopes have been dashed, as a number of black congressmen among others, have already labled Palin a racist for either 1) putting the spotlight on Obama's past with William Ayers, or 2) wearing white clothing (as I've heard). I love those black congressmen. "God bless them" as Sarah would say.

I love the race card, and look forward to playing it myself one day, while strolling through the "wrong neighborhood" in the coming Obama nation.

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beatlechick
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You either love the race card, or you don't. I loathe it but I find this comment very disturbing:
Quote:
 
I love the race card, and look forward to playing it myself one day, while strolling through the "wrong neighborhood" in the coming Obama nation.


Now tell me, what the hell is the "wrong neighborhood?" What is the "Obama nation" you are talking about? I could have sworn that the election is in the United States of America. Or are you talking about more of your life experiences? If you are, God help you. I know all to well about the racial aspect from MY life experiences.

I think those black congressman, have to admit that I have not heard the story, are wrong! We have enough innuendos going around that we don't need this kind of bullsh*t.
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beatlechick
Oct 8 2008, 07:44 AM
Heidi......Posted Image


I'm obviously missing something here... :unsure:
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beatlechick
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Oct 8 2008, 10:45 PM
beatlechick
Oct 8 2008, 07:44 AM
Heidi......Posted Image


I'm obviously missing something here... :unsure:
this part that you said:

Quote:
 
there are some things that Obama says that I like.
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Bill
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beatlechick
Oct 8 2008, 09:39 PM
You either love the race card, or you don't. I loathe it but I find this comment very disturbing:
Quote:
 
I love the race card, and look forward to playing it myself one day, while strolling through the "wrong neighborhood" in the coming Obama nation.


Now tell me, what the hell is the "wrong neighborhood?" What is the "Obama nation" you are talking about? I could have sworn that the election is in the United States of America. Or are you talking about more of your life experiences? If you are, God help you. I know all to well about the racial aspect from MY life experiences.

I think those black congressman, have to admit that I have not heard the story, are wrong! We have enough innuendos going around that we don't need this kind of bullsh*t.
I would like to know such congressmen's names before taking that story at face value.
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maccascruff
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otlset
Oct 8 2008, 08:47 PM
Not speaking for John here, but I sure hope racism isn't going to play a part in this campaign.

Yes, I am hoping the race card does not get played, with all the social explosiveness that can result. Yet recently my hopes have been dashed, as a number of black congressmen among others, have already labled Palin a racist for either 1) putting the spotlight on Obama's past with William Ayers, or 2) wearing white clothing (as I've heard). I love those black congressmen. "God bless them" as Sarah would say.

I love the race card, and look forward to playing it myself one day, while strolling through the "wrong neighborhood" in the coming Obama nation.
Racism has already been brought up in this campaign. Where have you been?

Ayers being in the Weather Underground--I was in high school college back then and I had friends who joined that organization or the SDS. I never did as I opposed the violence. I did agree with their opinion on the Viet Nam War.

Which black congressmen are saying these things. I haven't seen mention of it and I belong to several Obama groups. What about people in the crowds in Florida saying "kill him" about Obama, as well as "terrorist". I have seen clips of that.

Please define wrong neighborhood and Obama nation.

Once rightfully elected, Obama will be the President of the United States of America.
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Bill
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http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/presidential-debate-expanding-town-hall.html
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fab4fan
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Bill
 
John, if you can't see that racism is going to play a part in this election, then I'm afraid you have your head in the sand. There are other versions of that sticker you quoted, but the N didn't stand for Newbie. I don't like it any more than you do, but it's out there. It would be naive to pretend it isn't.

I assure you my friend an ostrich I am not! So far the only racism playing a part in this election is this absurd notion that the reason Obama isn't ahead by more is because he is black. Yes, absolutely, there are some people who will not vote for him solely because he is black. SOME. To sh*thole an entire nation of this sin is offensive to say the least! There are many other factors that account for a "percieved" slight advantage. How far left he is for one. The fact that a lot of people who might vote for him are not even registered to vote. As a representative of the great many white American immigrants whose ancestors were not in this country during slave times I reject this racist label, especially from foreigners, no matter how much I respect them. Of course you also remember I say this as a person whose ancestors were freed 40 years prior to the American slaves. I can't speak for Cathy or Linda and their personal observations of black/white interaction in this country but I do live 5 miles from the largest African-American city in Indiana (Gary) and work in the third largest populated city in the country, Chicago. Our practice's patient load is three-quarter African-American. I have significant interaction with Afican-Americans on a daily basis, please consider my viewpoint instead of accepting the rants of those who bash the USA for political gain.
And finally, given the fact that the majority of white Americans who populate this country now had no ancestors here during slave times, if reparations were to ever be an issue I propose that the "great satan" nation that brought the slaves here be held accountable. Of course I speak of Great Britain. And yes, here I jest.

p.s. I'm sorry I forgot the main thing about this in my haste to make that lame joke. Barack Obama has run his entire campaign on the belief he could get elected based on the content of his character. His supporters do him a great disservice with these politically motivated, baseless accusations.


Bill
 
fab4fan
 
Let's see, under the current system no one is guaranteed benefits. Bush's plan was to allow you, if you wanted to, to OWN up to 15% of your contributions. So even if you just put it in the bank and not in the stock market you would still have more than under the current plan. And the problem with this is? :ponder:


The problem is that most civilised countries in the world have workable social security systems for those who need it. No-one is left behind. Fact #1. If the democrats of years past hadn't put the social security funds into the General Fund our Social Security system would be the envy of the world. Look it up. Bush had a plan for Americans to take possesion of their contributions, keep it out of the General Fund -- what an ass! :whistle: :rofl:

Candidate Bush also talked about a humble foreign policy. What happened to that?
And please spare me the "liberal media" nonsense! It's the media's job to challenge whatever the politicians say so the idea that they are challenging notions both then and now means they're doing their job!
Fact #2 The great majority of the media in the US is liberal. I've posted stats for you in the past but you just don't seem to get it. You have to get past what you see in Australia (I assume you get CNN & FOX. In your world that equals 50-50. Even there you are wrong. That comes out to two-thirds liberal and one-third conservative.)

As usual, Bush was right but only according to the law of unintended consequences. The economy was indeed heading towards recession thanks to a Bush White House and Republican congress. That's what you call a self-fulfilling prophecy! :rofl:
Fact #3 The recession candidate Bush talked about all ready happened and passed. We'll see about the one the liberal media has been drumbeating for the last 15 months. Doing their job indeed! So you're finally admitting then that their job is to get the lib elected. Heaven begorah :whistle: :rofl:

Kind of like health care. :whistle:
Fact #4 I have a solution for health care! US pulls its troops out of all locations worldwide, save for Iraq and Afghanistan. Let all the countries that have been mooching free defense from us while they spend their money on health care have their own budget crises. Some troops we send to Afghanistan to get it back to where it was when we pulled out for Iraq. Thanks for nothing UN, you let the Taliban and the routed remnants of Al-Qaida returning from defeat in Iraq regain a stronghold. Petraeus will come and save your asses. With the money saved we pay for health care and no new taxes. Sorry Europe and Japan, your taxes are going up.

Good to see you here, John. How's your sister?
Good to be back! I've missed all of you. (obviously I was reading along the way.) Sis will eventually be okay. They are still staying at my folks house while the folks are 50th honeymooning in Greece. I have a much greater appreciation of what the people in New Orleans and now Galveston have and are going through. Water, it's such a destructive force. And what substance are we humans most made up of?
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Bill
Oct 8 2008, 05:17 AM
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And yes, Gore was total scum for involving the judiciary.


When someone attempts to subvert democracy by shutting down vote counts, what is the more patriotic thing to do?

I find it curious that people accuse Gore of being a wimp at the same time as criticising him for standing up and fighting.
I know I'm talking about different comments from different people, but it seems to me that some people just want to hate Al Gore for any reason.
Is there proof somewhere there that Bush stole the election?

The ruling against Gore was because he only wanted Broward county votes recounted. You can't cherrypick where you want a recount. Of course you know a recount was done by the liberal Miami Herald. Bush still won by their recount.

I know it wasn't you who made the "Bush stole the eection" comment. As for hating Gore, I hate the precedent his actions have set. Much the same way people would have hated Nixon had he challenged Kennedy in Cook County in Illinois. The loser (Gore) should have won his home state of Tennesse. Then Florida wouldn't have mattered. Rejected by the people who knew him best. That ought to tell you something.
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So far the only racism playing a part in this election is this absurd notion that the reason Obama isn't ahead by more is because he is black. Yes, absolutely, there are some people who will not vote for him solely because he is black. SOME. To sh*thole an entire nation of this sin is offensive to say the least!


Whoa!
Who shitholed an entire nation?

I listed the issue as the third of three possible reasons I could think of in answer to Mia's question.
I agree that it would be offensive to even imply the entire nation is guilty of such a sin, but since nobody said that, it's a moot point.

Quote:
 
Fact #2 The great majority of the media in the US is liberal. I've posted stats for you in the past but you just don't seem to get it. You have to get past what you see in Australia (I assume you get CNN & FOX. In your world that equals 50-50. Even there you are wrong. That comes out to two-thirds liberal and one-third conservative.)

Not a fact at all, but paranoid fantasy. The Australian media is neither here not there. The myth of "liberal bias" is put about by the right wing any time the facts go against them. It's called working the ref. CNN liberal? Don't make me laugh.

Quote:
 
Fact #4 I have a solution for health care! US pulls its troops out of all locations worldwide, save for Iraq and Afghanistan. Let all the countries that have been mooching free defense from us while they spend their money on health care have their own budget crises. Some troops we send to Afghanistan to get it back to where it was when we pulled out for Iraq. Thanks for nothing UN, you let the Taliban and the routed remnants of Al-Qaida returning from defeat in Iraq regain a stronghold. Petraeus will come and save your asses. With the money saved we pay for health care and no new taxes. Sorry Europe and Japan, your taxes are going up.


You bring up an interesting point - you already have socialised defence. But if you honestly think that American presence around the world is an act of kindness and not defending US interests (no that there's anything wrong with that) then you are being naive. So if America thinks it can do without all the communications bases in all those corners of the world, then by all means pull out. It's swings and roundabouts. America protects its own interests. If someone else's interests happen to be protected at the same time, that's well and good, but America is not a charity. You won't hear that from CNN.
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Boy! this this sure can get you dizzy. :wacko:
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Oct 9 2008, 04:36 AM
Boy! this this sure can get you dizzy. :wacko:
Sorry Dorothy. I have these episodes where I think about what I'm going to post in reply to these geniuses. While I'm having these conversations with myself I get confused and only post the parts I remember and assume, because of the conversations I've had with myself, that the genius will figure out what I meant, by osmosis or whatever. :wacko: :blink:

I assure you you're okay. :D
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Not speaking for otlset but I would be interested to hear all US board members weigh in on this:

A) There are more neighborhoods where white people are "unwelcomed."

or

B) There are more neighborhoods where black people are "unwelcomed."

:ponder:
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fab4fan
Oct 9 2008, 05:06 AM
Not speaking for otlset but I would be interested to hear all US board members weigh in on this:

A) There are more neighborhoods where white people are "unwelcomed."

or

B) There are more neighborhoods where black people are "unwelcomed."

:ponder:
If we perceive the notion we hear on the news as being the truth, this is likely where we stand.

Blacks are pretty much unwelcomed in hispanic areas, asian areas, armenian areas, and don't do so hot in jewish areas. Oh yeah there is a 50/50 chance they are welcomed in white areas as long as they act white which doesn't make sense because we all share one common denominator, we're all human.

Whites are afraid to walk in black and hispanic areas.

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Oct 8 2008, 11:36 PM
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Oct 8 2008, 10:45 PM
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Oct 8 2008, 07:44 AM
Heidi......Posted Image


I'm obviously missing something here... :unsure:
this part that you said:

Quote:
 
there are some things that Obama says that I like.
:giggle: I truly don't dislike Obama and there are things that he says that sound interesting. Like I've said in the past, I don't agree with everything either candidate says; but I have to agree more with McCain's views overall.
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Oct 9 2008, 04:50 AM
Dorothy
Oct 9 2008, 04:36 AM
Boy! this this sure can get you dizzy. :wacko:
Sorry Dorothy. I have these episodes where I think about what I'm going to post in reply to these geniuses. While I'm having these conversations with myself I get confused and only post the parts I remember and assume, because of the conversations I've had with myself, that the genius will figure out what I meant, by osmosis or whatever. :wacko: :blink:

I assure you you're okay. :D
fab4fan
 
I assure you you're okay. :D

:lol: :unsure: Are you sure about that?
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Oct 9 2008, 05:06 AM
Not speaking for otlset but I would be interested to hear all US board members weigh in on this:

A) There are more neighborhoods where white people are "unwelcomed."

or

B) There are more neighborhoods where black people are "unwelcomed."

:ponder:
Quote:
 
B.) There are more neighborhoods where black people are "unwelcomed."


Just want to make it clear ths line was supposed to be option B and not the "cool smiley. :blink:
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otlset

Bill
Oct 9 2008, 12:10 AM
I would like to know such congressmen's names before taking that story at face value.
Gregory Meeks, D- New York: "He's not one of us? That's racial. That's fear."

Ed Towns, also D- New York: "Racism is alive and well in this country, and McCain and Palin are trying to appeal to to that and it's unfortunate."

All without any mention of race. It's exactly this kind of politically-correct paranoia that's dragging our country down.

http://www.observer.com/2008/politics/black-congressmen-declare-racism-palin-s-rhetoric?page=0%2C0

And for beatlechick in prior post: I hate the race card if I can't use it. But I love it if I can.

I'd also love a "get out of jail free" card too, but the liberals haven't yet been able to convert it from the board game successfully.

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otlset

maccascruff
Oct 9 2008, 03:26 AM
Please define wrong neighborhood and Obama nation.
Any neighborhood where I would be likely to encounter hostility, or worse, because of my color.

I have heard many references, especially I'd guess from Obama supporters, of the coming Obama nation. I guess it refers to when he wins and installs his administration.

It would be nice to have a magic "race" card, that would protect me from racist acts. Wouldn't you like one?

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otlset

fab4fan
Oct 9 2008, 05:06 AM
Not speaking for otlset but I would be interested to hear all US board members weigh in on this:

A) There are more neighborhoods where white people are "unwelcomed."

or

B) There are more neighborhoods where black people are "unwelcomed."

:ponder:
There is no way to quantify this, and even commenting on it would make one a racist to those of small minds. But common sense would have me be wary of strolling through south (what used to be called south-central) Los Angeles any time of day. In fact, just about any inner city area in the US.

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otlset

beatlechick
Oct 9 2008, 05:18 AM
Whites are afraid to walk in black and hispanic areas.

Not so much hispanic (for me).

Why do you think this is?

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otlset

Here's something new I just came across. Was Obama's first memoir from 1995 actually co-written by William Ayers? This author suspects so...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/who_wrote_dreams_from_my_fathe_1.html

I report, you decide. :)

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Just not putting much stock in that article. The more Ayers is brought up, the more it seems McCain supporters are getting scared. The more Ayer is brought up, the more I want to start saying Jesse Helms, Strum Thurmond, and Robert Byrd and their good association with McCain and how the Annenberg fund is financed by ultra-conservative (the late) Walter Annenberg and his family. Walter Annenberg's wife is on the board to elect McCain.

From the same publication that you have stated comes this (of which I heard on the news) quote
Quote:
 
Legitimate questions are being raised as to whether the Obama campaign is knowledgeable of or involved in these fraudulent schemes. Obama's close ties to ACORN make the idea that his campaign was not aware of what the organization was doing for him unbelievable.

Will the press stand by while the Democrats steal the election? Why not. They've shown little interest in vetting Obama to this point so why should we think they will act any differently now?

Barack Obama: Fraud we can believe in.


All I can say is that the people that has been working on registering votes (unofficially) is moveon.org and not ACORN. I have worked with moveon.org but don't necessarily trust their tactics as a lot of people do. Having worked their phonebank for voter registration, at least on that it is on the up and up.

BTW since this is a community organizing organization, why are they so important to you McCain supporters since community organizing don't mean much. Just a rhetorical question. Yes the mainstream media has picked up on this story as there are 5,000 new registers in a precinct in Indiana where about half could be fraudulent. This is exactly the same story we heard in 2000 and 2004. Then Republicans were being accused of registering dead people, the same here. This is a major reason why people don't want to vote, voter fraud. The last line is an uncalled for line IMO and one of the reasons why that article about the writer of Dreams From My Father lost any credibility.

And now to go celebrate the birth of someone that is so near and dear to most of us. Someone that also had some "associates" that many do not like. Happy 68th John!
Edited by beatlechick, Oct 9 2008, 09:38 PM.
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Bill
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otlset
Oct 9 2008, 08:34 PM
Here's something new I just came across. Was Obama's first memoir from 1995 actually co-written by William Ayers? This author suspects so...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/who_wrote_dreams_from_my_fathe_1.html

I report, you decide. :)
Regurgitating desperate right-wing conspiracy theories is not exactly "reporting."

Decide this: http://fightthesmears.com/articles/22/AyersSmear
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Bill
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otlset
Oct 9 2008, 04:55 PM
maccascruff
Oct 9 2008, 03:26 AM
Please define wrong neighborhood and Obama nation.
Any neighborhood where I would be likely to encounter hostility, or worse, because of my color.

I have heard many references, especially I'd guess from Obama supporters, of the coming Obama nation. I guess it refers to when he wins and installs his administration.

It would be nice to have a magic "race" card, that would protect me from racist acts. Wouldn't you like one?
So what you're saying is that there is no racism in America except when there is.

There was a time when white people could be guaranteed to never feel intimidated simply because of their ethnicity. They were the only ethnic group in American history to have enjoyed that privilege. If there are now places where white people understand how it feels to be black or Hispanic, perhaps that's racial equality American style.... in much the same way that some seem to think the answer to gun violence is for more people to carry guns.
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Bill
Oct 10 2008, 12:14 AM
If there are now places where white people understand how it feels to be black or Hispanic, perhaps that's racial equality American style.... in much the same way that some seem to think the answer to gun violence is for more people to carry guns.
Succinctly and very well put Bill.
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Bill
Oct 10 2008, 12:05 AM
otlset
Oct 9 2008, 08:34 PM
Here's something new I just came across. Was Obama's first memoir from 1995 actually co-written by William Ayers? This author suspects so...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/who_wrote_dreams_from_my_fathe_1.html

I report, you decide. :)
Regurgitating desperate right-wing conspiracy theories is not exactly "reporting."

Decide this: http://fightthesmears.com/articles/22/AyersSmear
I believe Obama hung out with Ayers and knew all about him but I agree the Repubs need to leave it alone and, maybe, tell me how you are not going to nationalize banks.
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maccascruff
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Bag O' Nails
Oct 9 2008, 06:09 AM
I truly don't dislike Obama and there are things that he says that sound interesting. Like I've said in the past, I don't agree with everything either candidate says; but I have to agree more with McCain's views overall.
And I agree more with what Obama says. I basically haven't heard Palin saying anything that I can agree with.
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maccascruff
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otlset
Oct 9 2008, 04:55 PM
maccascruff
Oct 9 2008, 03:26 AM
Please define wrong neighborhood and Obama nation.
Any neighborhood where I would be likely to encounter hostility, or worse, because of my color.

I have heard many references, especially I'd guess from Obama supporters, of the coming Obama nation. I guess it refers to when he wins and installs his administration.

It would be nice to have a magic "race" card, that would protect me from racist acts. Wouldn't you like one?
You seem to have not read that I said Obama is running for President of the United States of America. I find Obama Nation to be offensive.
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otlset
Oct 8 2008, 06:14 PM
Notice also in the attached link Ayer's picture standing on the American flag, along with the full story and documentation. What there is of it so far, that is...

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/rich-noyes/2008/09/23/barack-obama-bill-ayers-stanley-kurtz-makes-connection
The day that newsbusters.org actually have the full story on anything will be the day that Satan wears mittens.
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fab4fan
Oct 9 2008, 04:20 AM
Bill
Oct 8 2008, 05:17 AM
Quote:
 
And yes, Gore was total scum for involving the judiciary.


When someone attempts to subvert democracy by shutting down vote counts, what is the more patriotic thing to do?

I find it curious that people accuse Gore of being a wimp at the same time as criticising him for standing up and fighting.
I know I'm talking about different comments from different people, but it seems to me that some people just want to hate Al Gore for any reason.
Is there proof somewhere there that Bush stole the election?

The ruling against Gore was because he only wanted Broward county votes recounted. You can't cherrypick where you want a recount. Of course you know a recount was done by the liberal Miami Herald. Bush still won by their recount.

I know it wasn't you who made the "Bush stole the eection" comment. As for hating Gore, I hate the precedent his actions have set. Much the same way people would have hated Nixon had he challenged Kennedy in Cook County in Illinois. The loser (Gore) should have won his home state of Tennesse. Then Florida wouldn't have mattered. Rejected by the people who knew him best. That ought to tell you something.
John, I'd urge you to watch the movie Recount. It explains the events in Florida better than any huge amount of text I could write ever could.
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fab4fan
Oct 8 2008, 04:53 AM
Quote:
 
Why if Obama is so great isn't he leading in the polls by more?

Shame on Bill and Andy for goading Linda down this road! SHAME! SHAME! SHAME! :nono: That is so far out there on the fringe of lefty lunacy that you two so-called 'just left of center' (ahem) gentlemen couldn't see the real center with the Hubble telescope. IMHO.
Firstly, I credit Linda with more intelligence than to think that Bill and I could 'goad' her down any road.

Secondly, I have never - not once - on this thread or board, suggested that racism will keep Barack Obama out of the White House, or - come 2009 - the newly painted (and renamed) Black House. :P The main reason being, although this obviously doesn't apply to all Americans for various reasons on both sides of the political spectrum, I honestly believe that the majority of the American people see past the race of the candidates in this election.
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otlset
Oct 9 2008, 05:08 PM
beatlechick
Oct 9 2008, 05:18 AM
Whites are afraid to walk in black and hispanic areas.

Not so much hispanic (for me).

Why do you think this is?
I am always cautious about walking through areas where poverty is endemic. It's one big coincidence that many predominantly black or hispanic neighbourhoods are also poverty-stricken. Why do you think that is?
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Bill
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This whole Ayers thing is such old news. Hillary Clinton tried to make something of it and failed. McCain didn't even bother. It's only come up again since Sarah Palin has brought it up, after claiming to have only read about it the other day. That kind of suggests she wasn't paying attention during the primaries.

I have a question for those who accuse Barack Obama of palin around with terrorists:

How would you feel if Obama felt that the United States was imperfect enough to want to break away from it - so much so that he supported an organisation that was funded by Iran?

First, answer the hypothetical question honestly, then
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Edited by Bill, Oct 10 2008, 01:24 PM.
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So you're suggesting the Clinton administration had Vogler whacked?
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Bill
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No, you're thinking of Jimmy Hoffa.
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This is from the article:

AIP leaders allege that Vogler, who was murdered that year by a fellow secessionist, was taken out by powerful forces in the U.S. before he could reach his U.N. platform.

(Vogler was shot in 1993)
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Bill
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So it depends on whether you believe the first half of the sentence or the second. We all know how reliable conspiracy theorists are. I'm more concerned about the funding from Iran. They're the bad guys, right? I get so confused. :lol:
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Bill
Oct 10 2008, 02:40 PM
So it depends on whether you believe the first half of the sentence or the second. We all know how reliable conspiracy theorists are. I'm more concerned about the funding from Iran. They're the bad guys, right? I get so confused. :lol:
Were they in '93? I forget.
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Bill
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The moral of the story is that people in glass governor's mansions shouldn't throw stones.
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Ok, seriously, let me get this straight. On the one hand, there is Obama who is running for President, who sat down in his living room with Ayers, who was an actual revolutionary, bomb-throwing, terrorist, as was his wife who was Michelle Obama's pal from work, the same office in which Barack and Michelle met; and

On the other hand, you have the VP candidate, Sarah Palin, whose husband, not her, years ago being in a party with secessionist goals, whose leader died in 1993, killed by a fellow party member, and the article claims the party received some funding from Iran. Are there any allegations the party did any violence other than the one member killing Vogler?

Am I understanding this?
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In all seriousness, you're half way there. Obama had nothing more than a passing relationship with Ayers so any suggestion that Obama has a shred of sympathy with anything Ayers did when is outlandish in the extreme.

The fact that Volger was murdered doesn't mean the party or its objectives died with him, nor does it mean that the Iranian money was repaid or donated to a worthy charity.
The fact that it was Todd and not Sarah Palin who carried the AIP membership card is irrelevant when you consider the fact that Sarah Palin, as governor, said that the AIP played an important part in Alaskan politics and added "God bless you," and "keep up the good work." I'm sure you saw that in the video.

What good work? Working against the United States? With money from Iran? Seriously, Palin has got some chutzpah casting aspersions on Obama's patriotism considering the kind of people she's been pallin' around with.

Now if anyone wants to suggest that this has nothing to do with election issues, then they'll get no argument from me. But since the Republican ticket is trying to make it an issue, then it's only fair and balanced to have a look at their past, and when you do, it becomes clear that when it comes to pallin' around with domestic terrorists, Palin has Obama beat.
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otlset

beatlechick
Oct 9 2008, 09:28 PM
This is exactly the same story we heard in 2000 and 2004. Then Republicans were being accused of registering dead people, the same here.
In 2004 the group ACORN was involved in charges of registering "dead" people, just as they are today, but in a much wider and more egregious way. But no Republicans were involved in such fraud.

In 2000 the controversy centered mainly around the uncovering of illegal registering of felons to the voter rolls I think in Ohio, but definitely in Florida. They were urged to, and did, vote Democratic. The brouhaha stemmed from the attempts to stop their votes from counting.

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No, it stemmed from people being purged from the rolls on the grounds that they were felons, except that the overwhelming majority of them weren't. In fact, most of them were purged merely for having a similar sounding name to a felon. By the time anyone figured out what had happened, the election was over and thousands of people had been denied their right to vote. Most of them happened to be from predominantly Democratic areas. Coincidence?
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Bill
Oct 10 2008, 12:05 AM
Regurgitating desperate right-wing conspiracy theories is not exactly "reporting."


This is new, the suspicion that Obama's first book about himself was co-written by non other than William Ayers! It is no "regurgitation". And in fact, the article and his research has a lot of plausibility, based on his conclusions and rationale.

This speaks to Palin's and other's claims that Obama is not being completely forthcoming and truthful about his relationship with Ayers. It's his appearance of trying to hide something, of minimizing his relationship with him ("just a guy from the neighborhood"), despite the increasing evidence that it was much more than he's been letting on. Why does he seem to be hiding things from his past? It would be better for him to come clean about all this, and I mean ALL this, rather than appear to be involved in a cover-up, which as we know from the Nixon years, can backfire big time.

My suspicion is, that he would rather not let come out what seems to be a much closer relationship with Ayers than he has let on, and how he doled out funds from Ayers through the Annenberg gift most notably to organizations such as ACORN (as well as other "radical" educational special interests), and how intimately he is involved with ACORN and its shenanigans (if voter fraud could be considered just mere shenanigans), and how involved both he and ACORN was to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, to the point of getting paid (Obama) from those organizations while they were going down in flames due to, in part, ACORN's pressuring (along with Barney Frank and Chris Dodd most notably) of those organizations to give sub-prime risky mortgages to minority poor would-be homeowners, and so on.

And here we are, in a damn mess because of it.

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Monkey Chow
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
"It's his appearance of trying to hide something"

That's what doesn't pass the smell test with me either regarding Obama and Ayers. I don't believe the Palins have ever been anything but forthcoming about AIP. I'll have to look up what years Todd was a member and contemplate this.
Edited by Monkey Chow, Oct 10 2008, 04:51 PM.
Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey.
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otlset

Bill
Oct 10 2008, 12:14 AM
So what you're saying is that there is no racism in America except when there is.

There was a time when white people could be guaranteed to never feel intimidated simply because of their ethnicity. They were the only ethnic group in American history to have enjoyed that privilege. If there are now places where white people understand how it feels to be black or Hispanic, perhaps that's racial equality American style.... in much the same way that some seem to think the answer to gun violence is for more people to carry guns.
I'm surprised, but also a bit pleased, that you point out the potential hazards of multiculturalism in a society that seeks, and desperately needs unity.

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otlset

maccascruff
Oct 10 2008, 01:42 AM
You seem to have not read that I said Obama is running for President of the United States of America. I find Obama Nation to be offensive.
Then don't vote for him.

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otlset

JeffLynnesBeard
Oct 10 2008, 12:47 PM
The day that newsbusters.org actually have the full story on anything will be the day that Satan wears mittens.
I heard he already wears a fire-retardant suit. At least that's what the AP said. And of course they're always truthful.

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otlset

JeffLynnesBeard
Oct 10 2008, 12:57 PM
It's one big coincidence that many predominantly black or hispanic neighbourhoods are also poverty-stricken. Why do you think that is?
You know, I've never been able to figure that out.

But I would suggest looking to the more newly-established asian neighborhoods, in particular Korean neighborhoods and businesses of Los Angeles (who were victimized brutally and out of proportion to other businesses during the LA riots of 1992) as to how they come in to already depressed areas, set up businesses, and become successful through hard work and long hours at them, despite being surrounded by crime and poverty.

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Monkey Chow
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
Formerly from AIP's website:

Todd Palin was registered as a member but never participated in any party activities aside from attending a convention in Wasilla at one time.

I can't find any date ranges online.
Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey.
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otlset

Bill
Oct 10 2008, 04:01 PM
Obama had nothing more than a passing relationship with Ayers so any suggestion that Obama has a shred of sympathy with anything Ayers did when is outlandish in the extreme.

For someone (Ayers) to trust another (Obama) to the point of setting him up as administrator of funds from Ayer's successful campaign to obtain the Annenberg Challenge money to, in his words, "radicalize" the Chicago area schools, is obviously by now much more than a "passing relationship."

And yet even this pales in comparison to Obama's "relationship" with the ACORN community organizing group, now exploding with news of blatant voter registration fraud, which is still being uncovered.

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maccascruff
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otlset
Oct 10 2008, 04:51 PM
maccascruff
Oct 10 2008, 01:42 AM
You seem to have not read that I said Obama is running for President of the United States of America. I find Obama Nation to be offensive.
Then don't vote for him.
This is even more offensive. :realmad:

You are questioning my intelligence as to who I vote for. I already have voted for Obama and will be very happy to have him as the President of the United States of America.
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
Barack Obama: True or False

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/obama.asp
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otlset

maccascruff
Oct 10 2008, 06:14 PM
This is even more offensive. :realmad:

You are questioning my intelligence as to who I vote for. I already have voted for Obama and will be very happy to have him as the President of the United States of America.
Questioning your intelligence? Not at all.

It was just a joke. Like ACORN regards the sanctity of the voting process.

You should joke back. Like saying to me "sounds as if a BIG ACORN dropped on your head!" :D I wouldn't be offended. It's likely you could come up with something that's even FUNNY!

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otlset

maccascruff
Oct 10 2008, 06:15 PM
Barack Obama: True or False
Depends on what you ask him!

Okay, okay. I'm pushing my luck... :tomato:

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Bill
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otlset
Oct 10 2008, 04:48 PM
Bill
Oct 10 2008, 12:14 AM
So what you're saying is that there is no racism in America except when there is.

There was a time when white people could be guaranteed to never feel intimidated simply because of their ethnicity. They were the only ethnic group in American history to have enjoyed that privilege. If there are now places where white people understand how it feels to be black or Hispanic, perhaps that's racial equality American style.... in much the same way that some seem to think the answer to gun violence is for more people to carry guns.
I'm surprised, but also a bit pleased, that you point out the potential hazards of multiculturalism in a society that seeks, and desperately needs unity.
Thank you, Enoch Powell.

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Bill
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otlset
Oct 10 2008, 04:39 PM
Bill
Oct 10 2008, 12:05 AM
Regurgitating desperate right-wing conspiracy theories is not exactly "reporting."


This is new, the suspicion that Obama's first book about himself was co-written by non other than William Ayers! It is no "regurgitation". And in fact, the article and his research has a lot of plausibility, based on his conclusions and rationale.
You're really getting desperate now, aren't you?

Bill Ayers wrote Obama's book? Give me a break! :roll: And you say this allegation should be taken seriously because you heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone?

Why is it that right wingers take every lame-brain smear against Obama so seriously that they claim it's going to destroy the nation, yet when there is compelling (if not conclusive) evidence against their own people, they demand proof beyond reasonable doubt and even then try to rationalise such behaviour?

That's what simple, small-town Washington outsiders like me call hypocrisy.
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Bill
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Monkey Chow
Oct 10 2008, 05:41 PM
Formerly from AIP's website:

Todd Palin was registered as a member but never participated in any party activities aside from attending a convention in Wasilla at one time.

I can't find any date ranges online.
So what?

If the vice presidential candidate is married to a member (or even a former member) of a radical separatist group, don't you think that's an issue?
If not, don't you think it's an issue that the candidate used her position as governor to express support for that same organisation - the one that was funded by a sworn enemy of the United States?

In any case, the worst thing that could happen to the separatists would be for them to get their own way. Like all radical right wingers, they haven't thought things through. Alaska is the most subsidised state in the union. Left to their own devices, they'd be broke in 12 months.
Put a puppet on it.
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beatlechick
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maccascruff
Oct 10 2008, 01:42 AM
otlset
Oct 9 2008, 04:55 PM
maccascruff
Oct 9 2008, 03:26 AM
Please define wrong neighborhood and Obama nation.
Any neighborhood where I would be likely to encounter hostility, or worse, because of my color.

I have heard many references, especially I'd guess from Obama supporters, of the coming Obama nation. I guess it refers to when he wins and installs his administration.

It would be nice to have a magic "race" card, that would protect me from racist acts. Wouldn't you like one?
You seem to have not read that I said Obama is running for President of the United States of America. I find Obama Nation to be offensive.
I think Obama Nation to be highly offensive.
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beatlechick
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otlset
Oct 10 2008, 04:14 PM
beatlechick
Oct 9 2008, 09:28 PM
This is exactly the same story we heard in 2000 and 2004. Then Republicans were being accused of registering dead people, the same here.
In 2004 the group ACORN was involved in charges of registering "dead" people, just as they are today, but in a much wider and more egregious way. But no Republicans were involved in such fraud.

In 2000 the controversy centered mainly around the uncovering of illegal registering of felons to the voter rolls I think in Ohio, but definitely in Florida. They were urged to, and did, vote Democratic. The brouhaha stemmed from the attempts to stop their votes from counting.
You really need to read what is being stated. Not once did I say the Republicans did anything. I said they were accused of.

So far the group, who denies any tie-in to Obama except that he was their lawyer twice in Illinois, is only being accused of voter fraud in Indiana.
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Monkey Chow
Oct 10 2008, 04:48 PM
"It's his appearance of trying to hide something"

That's what doesn't pass the smell test with me either regarding Obama and Ayers. I don't believe the Palins have ever been anything but forthcoming about AIP. I'll have to look up what years Todd was a member and contemplate this.
Todd was a member twice, 1995 and 2000. Sarah never was but this year, as Governor, she submitted a video to them for their convention. I got thise from their website http://www.akip.org/conv08.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4iCDBIAde8

Their bylaws don't really say anything about seceding from the union however their basic questions do:

http://www.akip.org/faqs.html

Quote:
 
"Canada my ass, it's Alaska's Gas!"


Quote:
 
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ABOUT ALASKAN INDEPENDENCE
Q: What is the Alaskan Independence Party?

A: An Alaskan political party whose members advocate a range of solutions to the conflicts between federal and local authority; from advocacy for state's rights, through a return to territorial status, all the way to complete independence and nationhood status for Alaska.

Q: Aren't most Alaskan Independence Party members a bunch of radicals and Kooks?

A: The party has its share of individualists, in the grand Alaskan tradition. No longer a fringe party, the A.I.P. is a viable third party with a serious mission and qualified candidates for elected offices.

Q: If Alaska became independent, wouldn't we lose a lot of federal money?

A: No. If Alaska returned to territorial status, most federal money would still be available. If Alaska were to attain complete independence, its revenues from oil and other natural resources would far exceed the amounts currently received from the federal government, at our current level of resource utilization.

Q: If Alaska were independent, what would happen to my social security check, federal pension, or military retirement?

A: People receive these checks around the world, regardless of their place of residence. In most cases eligibility for such checks would not be affected by Alaskan independence.

Q: If Alaska became independent, would U.S. military bases leave?

A: The strategic location of Alaska would indicate that it would serve U.S. interests to maintain a presence in Alaska. The military are good neighbors. There would be no compelling reason for the military to leave Alaska.

Q: Didn't we vote for statehood already?

A: The vote for statehood was invalid because the people were not presented with the range of options available to them. Further, the federal government has since breached the contract for statehood on numerous occasions in over a dozen serious and substantial instances.

Q: Under independence, what would happen to all the federal controls and regulations?

A: We believe that controls should be exerted by the lowest possible governmental unit. The people of Alaska can better decide what controls need to be in place than can bureaucrats in Washington. Specific local regulation might be either more or less restrictive than current federal regulation. The point is that it will be our regulation, not Washington's.

Q: Would I lose my U.S. citizenship?

A: Depending on the form of independence, several forms of citizenship would be possible, including the retention of U.S. citizenship or dual citizenship. However, considering the moral, educational, and economic decay of the U.S., Alaskans' who hold themselves to a higher standard might very well decide to at least maintain an arm's length distance from a country in decline.

Q: What will happen to major U.S. stores such as Sears, Safeway, and McDonald's?

A: Any company which found it profitable to sell in Alaska would remain. Without the constraints of the deteriorating U.S. economy, and with the enormous wealth of Alaska, international as well as local companies will prosper.



They still speak at separatist meetings such as this from this 10/3-10/4/07.

Funny the first video states that Sarah was a member yet everywhere else it states that she was friendly towards them but has been Republican since May, 1982!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NK2sFJebGc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqa896wYatk

Guys, smell all you want but they all have skeletons in those closets. Not one of them have not know people of dubious ideologies. Not one!
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beatlechick
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otlset
Oct 10 2008, 05:38 PM
JeffLynnesBeard
Oct 10 2008, 12:57 PM
It's one big coincidence that many predominantly black or hispanic neighbourhoods are also poverty-stricken. Why do you think that is?
You know, I've never been able to figure that out.

But I would suggest looking to the more newly-established asian neighborhoods, in particular Korean neighborhoods and businesses of Los Angeles (who were victimized brutally and out of proportion to other businesses during the LA riots of 1992) as to how they come in to already depressed areas, set up businesses, and become successful through hard work and long hours at them, despite being surrounded by crime and poverty.
Sorry, I have lived in and around LA and I don't think the Korean businesses are all that successful. Unless they are the minimarts and donutshops that were bought out under the noses of white Americans. The more you get out of the San Fernando Valley, the less Korean businesses there are. Where I live, there are no Korean businesses. And I am only 9 miles east of the City of Los Angeles border! The city I live in used to be stalwart white Republicans but it is more multicultural now. Yes the Koreans had a high work ethic but that work ethic did go against the black people who made their once thriving businesses successful. Granted this was not always the case. Those that were friendly towards their customers, all customers, were the ones that were saved. If you were truly here in LA before the civil unrest, even LAPD has trouble calling it a riot, than you would know why their businesses were looted and destroyed more than any other.
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Bill
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If the appearance of having something to hide is a bad thing, what does ignoring subpoenas do?

By the way, the verdict is in on Troopergate, and it's Guilty!

I predict now that Republicans will blame a biased media and a legislative witch-hunt which will only cement Palin's credentials as a modern conservative as defined by the Bush administration. :lol:
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maccascruff
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Guilty, but she did nothing illegal. I agree with your prediction, Bill--they will blame the media. I heard one of Palin's former aides interviewed this afternoon and she totally danced around the question of the role of the First Dude when it comes to official state business. First Dude was not elected by the people of Alaska. He should not have access to anything when it comes to state business.

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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
I will give McCain credit for this: Today as a rally, he tried to silence the hate rhetoric about Obama. Let's see if Palin will follow suit.
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beatlechick
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Bill
Oct 11 2008, 01:30 AM
If the appearance of having something to hide is a bad thing, what does ignoring subpoenas do?

By the way, the verdict is in on Troopergate, and it's Guilty!

I predict now that Republicans will blame a biased media and a legislative witch-hunt which will only cement Palin's credentials as a modern conservative as defined by the Bush administration. :lol:
Not completely guilty, Bill.

Palin abuse power

Quote:
 
Report: Palin abused power, broke no laws in trooper case

NEW: Report: Palin's personal ties "likely contributing factor" to commissioner's firing

State lawmakers looking into case related to governor's ex-brother-in-law

Legislative panel investigating July dismissal of public safety commissioner

Palin's allies have said investigation is Democratic-led witch hunt

ANCHORAGE, Alaska (CNN) -- Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin abused her power as Alaska's governor in the firing of her public safety commissioner, but violated no laws, a report for the state Legislature concluded Friday.

Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan's refusal to fire Palin's ex-brother-in-law from the state police force was "likely a contributing factor" to Monegan's July dismissal, but Palin had the authority as governor to dismiss him, the report by former Anchorage prosecutor Stephen Branchflower states.

The bipartisan Legislative Council earlier Friday went into executive session to discuss the Branchflower report before its scheduled release.

Only a portion of the report is scheduled to be made public after the executive session, said state Sen. Kim Elton, the Legislative Council's chairman. A second part of the report contains "confidential" information and will be kept under wraps, said Elton, a Democrat who has been under fire from Palin's supporters.

State Rep. Peggy Wilson, a Republican member of the council, said the total report ran about 1,000 pages.

"This is a pretty serious thing, and I don't feel comfortable even talking about it until I've got it all read," she said.

Palin, now the Republican vice presidential nominee, told reporters at a campaign stop in Ohio on Thursday that she has "absolutely nothing to hide" in the investigation.

"It's a governor's right and responsibility to make sure that they have the right people in the right place at the right time to best serve the people who hired them, and for me, the people of Alaska, so my Cabinet's got to be the right Cabinet for the people of Alaska," she said.

Ahead of Friday's hearing, Palin supporters wearing clown costumes and carrying balloons denounced the hearing as a "kangaroo court" and a "three-ring circus" led by supporters of Sen. Barack Obama, the Democratic presidential candidate.

The McCain-Palin campaign has leveled similar allegations routinely, including in a 21-page "analysis" of the case it distributed Thursday night.

Monegan has said he was fired in July after refusing pressure to sack Palin's ex-brother-in-law State Trooper Mike Wooten. Wooten was involved in an acrimonious divorce and custody battle with Palin's sister, and Palin and her husband describe him as "rogue trooper" who had threatened the family.

Palin originally agreed to cooperate with the Legislative Council inquiry, and disclosed in August that her advisers had contacted Department of Public Safety officials nearly two dozen times regarding her ex-brother-in-law.

But once she became Sen. John McCain's running mate, her advisers began painting the investigation as a weapon of Democratic partisans. They began to straight-arm the inquiry, calling it illegitimate, and attacked Democratic state Sen. Hollis French, the lawmaker managing the investigation, for a September 2 interview in which he warned the inquiry could yield an "October surprise" for the GOP ticket.

"The Palins are right to be concerned about the fairness of the Legislative Council investigation," the campaign analysis states. "The governor has consistently demonstrated, in statements and through documents she has made available, that she reassigned Mr. Monegan because of legitimate policy differences and disputes over the budget."

Palin's office in September released documents it said supported its position. The documents were part of a filing to the state Personnel Board, which Palin's office has asked to conduct a separate investigation. The governor and her allies say the board is the proper legal forum for any complaint, and Palin's lawyer says she and her husband will cooperate with that inquiry.
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beatlechick
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Here is the full report:

http://download2.legis.state.ak.us/DOWNLOAD.pdf
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beatlechick
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maccascruff
Oct 11 2008, 01:39 AM
I will give McCain credit for this: Today as a rally, he tried to silence the hate rhetoric about Obama. Let's see if Palin will follow suit.
I heard he was going to try and start that.
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Bill
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The finding was that she abused her position. Not an actual crime, perhaps not a sacking offence, but a clear stain on her fitness for office.

But I bet that's just going to make Republicans love her more while they spread rumours about Obama sharing a joint with Abbie Hoffman.
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Bill
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maccascruff
Oct 11 2008, 01:39 AM
I will give McCain credit for this: Today as a rally, he tried to silence the hate rhetoric about Obama. Let's see if Palin will follow suit.
Credit to him for that, but it's not as if he wasn't egging them on but shouting, "Who is Barack Obama?"

My answer to that question would be, he's only been the most scrutinised individual in America for the last two years, so if you still don't know, I guess you haven't been paying attention. Much like the economic crisis.
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beatlechick
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Bill
Oct 11 2008, 01:44 AM
But I bet that's just going to make Republicans love her more while they spread rumours about Obama sharing a joint with Abbie Hoffman.
HE DID?!? Well I guess they will have to tar and feather him now! What a pity, I knew he smoked pot and did cocaine in college but to smoke weed with the HOFF is just not acceptable! :P
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Bill
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Remember where you heard it first. I bet it will be on Fox and Friends tomorrow morning. :lol:
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beatlechick
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Tomorrow?!? I'm sending it off to them NOW. Should be their breaking news in a few minutes! Posted Image
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maccascruff
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Bill
Oct 11 2008, 01:47 AM
maccascruff
Oct 11 2008, 01:39 AM
I will give McCain credit for this: Today as a rally, he tried to silence the hate rhetoric about Obama. Let's see if Palin will follow suit.
Credit to him for that, but it's not as if he wasn't egging them on but shouting, "Who is Barack Obama?"

My answer to that question would be, he's only been the most scrutinised individual in America for the last two years, so if you still don't know, I guess you haven't been paying attention. Much like the economic crisis.
People at this particular rally were shouting racial slurs and "kill him" and calling Obama a Muslim and an Arab. McCain told one woman that Obama is not an Arab. She said she was afraid if he got elected. McCain told her she had nothing to fear, that he just didn't agree with him on issues. So, I think he deserves credit. I also think this kind of rhetoric started with Palin's actions in Florida starting last week.
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maccascruff
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beatlechick
Oct 11 2008, 01:47 AM
Bill
Oct 11 2008, 01:44 AM
But I bet that's just going to make Republicans love her more while they spread rumours about Obama sharing a joint with Abbie Hoffman.
HE DID?!? Well I guess they will have to tar and feather him now! What a pity, I knew he smoked pot and did cocaine in college but to smoke weed with the HOFF is just not acceptable! :P
I'm jealous. I always wanted to smoke a joint with Abbie Hoffman.
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Mia Culpa
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Less than a month to go. When are Obamites and McCainers going to start talking about actual issues? Your economy is abysmal and taking the rest of the world down with it. Your never-ending war in Iraq has gone years beyond destabalising. Your class system is just as divisive as ever. You're the richest country in the world and most of your people can't pay the bills.

Does anybody really care about the candidates' and their spouses' friends and associates 100 years ago? This is a serious time requiring serious solutions. This isn't the time for the usual stupid election garbage. Bases are loaded and you've got 2 outs. It's your turn at bat and you're still looking for a parking space. It's time to get your head out and knock one over the wall.

Should this be in the vent thread?
If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead.
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