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2008 U.S. Presidential Election
Topic Started: Feb 22 2007, 05:49 AM (37,426 Views)
Bill
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fab4fan
Sep 11 2008, 01:30 AM
Banned books from the library, had an affair, covered-up her daughters baby as her own. That's 3 off the top of my head. Will answer your other question shortly, have to help the 3rd grader with math homework.

Be afraid, very afraid. :rofl:
Thank you - and fair comment.

The baby is a lie.

The affair was reported by the National Enquirer. Where's Dan the Weatherman when you need him? :lol: :rofl:

The banning books is a half-truth. She didn't succeed in banning them.
Put a puppet on it.
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Bill
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Bag O' Nails
Sep 11 2008, 03:13 AM
Indeed it's nothing to look down upon; but does it qualify as "enough experience" to be the leader of one of the greatest free nations in the world? :unsure:
If that were his only experience, it wouldn't. But it's not, to the question is moot. I'd say it gives you a broader understanding of society than the PTA.
Put a puppet on it.
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Deleted User
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I posted this elsewhere about comparative education, but not everyone thinks education matters much when it comes to qualifications for the White House.

The important thing is that Palin graduated from the University of Idaho in 1987 with a Bachelor of Science degree in communications-journalism, allowing her to work as a sports reporter for KTUU-TV in Anchorage, Alaska and Obama went to wherever he went and got his degree in whatever he majored in and went on to do whatever he did... :whistle:

Following high school, Obama moved to Los Angeles, where he studied at Occidental College for two years. He then transferred to Columbia University in New York City, where he majored in political science with a specialization in international relations. Obama graduated with a B.A. from Columbia in 1983, then worked for a year at the Business International Corporation and then at the New York Public Interest Research Group.

After four years in New York City, Obama moved to Chicago to work as a community organizer for three years from June 1985 to May 1988 as director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland (Roseland, West Pullman, and Riverdale) on Chicago's far South Side. During his three years as the DCP's director, its staff grew from 1 to 13 and its annual budget grew from $70,000 to $400,000, with accomplishments including helping set up a job training program, a college preparatory tutoring program, and a tenants' rights organization in Altgeld Gardens. Obama also worked as a consultant and instructor for the Gamaliel Foundation, a community organizing institute. In mid-1988, he traveled for the first time to Europe for three weeks then Kenya for five weeks where he met many of his Kenyan relatives for the first time.

Obama entered Harvard Law School in late 1988 and at the end of his first year was selected as an editor of the Harvard Law Review based on his grades and a writing competition. In his second year he was elected president of the Law Review, a full-time volunteer position functioning as editor-in-chief and supervising the law review's staff of 80 editors. Obama's election in February 1990 as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review was widely reported and followed by several long, detailed profiles. He graduated with a Juris Doctor (J.D.) magna cum laude from Harvard in 1991 and returned to Chicago where he had worked as a summer associate at the law firms of Sidley & Austin in 1989 and Hopkins & Sutter in 1990.

The publicity from his election as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review led to a contract and advance to write a book about race relations. In an effort to recruit him to their faculty, the University of Chicago Law School provided Obama with a fellowship and an office to work on his book. He originally planned to finish the book in one year, but it took much longer as the book evolved into a personal memoir. In order to work without interruptions, Obama and his wife, Michelle, traveled to Bali where he wrote for several months. The manuscript was finally published as Dreams from My Father in mid-1995.

Obama directed Illinois Project Vote from April to October 1992, a voter registration drive with a staff of 10 and 700 volunteers that achieved its goal of registering 150,000 of 400,000 unregistered African Americans in the state, leading Crain's Chicago Business to name Obama to its 1993 list of "40 under Forty" powers to be. Obama taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School for twelve years, as a Lecturer for four years (1992–1996), and as a Senior Lecturer for eight years (1996–2004)
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Bag O' Nails
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MaccaMomma
Bill
Sep 11 2008, 04:17 AM
Bag O' Nails
Sep 11 2008, 03:13 AM
Indeed it's nothing to look down upon; but does it qualify as "enough experience" to be the leader of one of the greatest free nations in the world? :unsure:
If that were his only experience, it wouldn't. But it's not, to the question is moot. I'd say it gives you a broader understanding of society than the PTA.
And if the PTA was her only experience, then I'd poo-poo her, too.
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One sweet dream came true....London & Liverpool '08
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Bag O' Nails
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MaccaMomma
Is this the kind of sex education that we need??? :huh: :nono:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3sVPN5f62w
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One sweet dream came true....London & Liverpool '08
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Bag O' Nails
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MaccaMomma
JeffLynnesBeard
Sep 7 2008, 04:16 AM

If the rest of the world could vote in America's elections then the word landslide wouldn't even begin to describe the victory Obama would enjoy. Unfortunately, that isn't the case and it is up to Americans to do the right thing and give us what the majority of the world longs for - a less aggressive, more caring America - in other words: Barack Obama for President.
Is this an example of "the rest of the world?"

These are excerpts of a public address delivered by Libyan strongman Moammar Khadafy, marking the anniversary of the US air raid on Libya. This is from June 11th of this year.

"It has been proven that there is no democracy in [the US]. Rather, it is a dictatorship no different than the dictatorships of Hitler, Napoleon, Mussolini, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, and the rest of the tyrants. In the days of crazy Reagan, the American president issued a presidential order to launch a war against Libya, for example, a presidential order to besiege Libya, a presidential order to boycott Libya, and so on. Is this a democracy or a dictatorship? … There are elections in America now." This is Khadafy, still speaking. "Along came a black citizen of Kenyan African origins, a Muslim, who had studied in an Islamic school in Indonesia. His name is Obama. All the people in the Arab and Islamic world and in Africa applauded this man.

"They welcomed him and prayed for him and for his success, and they may have even been involved in legitimate contribution campaigns to enable him to win the American presidency. But we were taken by surprise when our African Kenyan brother, who is an American national, made statements that shocked all his supporters in the Arab world, in Africa, and in the Islamic world. We hope that this is merely an elections 'clearance sale,' as they say in Egypt -- in other words, merely an elections lie. As you know, this is the farce of elections -- a person lies and lies to people, just so that they will vote for him, and afterwards, when they say to him: 'You promised this and that,' he says: 'No, this was just elections propaganda.'

"This is the farce of democracy for you. He says: 'This was propaganda, and you thought I was being serious. I was fooling you to get your votes' Allah willing, it will turn out that this was merely elections propaganda. Obama said he would turn Jerusalem into the eternal capital of the Israelis. This indicates that our brother Obama is ignorant of international politics, and is not familiar with the Middle East conflict." I am suppressing an allergy-related sneeze, ladies and gentlemen. So Obama now has Moammar Khadafy out there saying, "Yeah, he's a Muslim, a black brother with origins of Kenya and so forth, lying about Jerusalem."


Toward the end of his remarks, Khadafy said, "The thing we fear most is that the black man suffers from an inferiority complex. This is dangerous. If our brother Obama feels that because he is black he doesn't have the right to rule America, this would be a disaster, because such a feeling would make him behave whiter than the white, and go to an extreme in his persecution and degradation of the blacks. ... We still hope that this black man will take pride in his African and Islamic identity, and in his faith, and that [he will know] that he has rights in America, and that he will change America from evil to good, and that America will establish relations that will serve it well with other peoples, especially the Arabs."


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One sweet dream came true....London & Liverpool '08
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Bag O' Nails
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MaccaMomma
Corvair
Sep 10 2008, 11:05 PM
fab4fan
Sep 10 2008, 03:41 AM
Food for thought:

Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
Jesus was a carpenter. Al Capone was a community organizer.
More on this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp_2Cw4RH1c

Then read this; read the comments below the article..."Corsair/Covair/Gary" is that you? :clap:

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/10/scenes-from-the-house-floor-jesus-was-a-community-organizer-pontius-pilate-was-a-governor/
Edited by Bag O' Nails, Sep 11 2008, 07:35 PM.
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One sweet dream came true....London & Liverpool '08
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Corvair

Bag O' Nails
Sep 11 2008, 07:34 PM
Corvair
Sep 10 2008, 11:05 PM
fab4fan
Sep 10 2008, 03:41 AM
Food for thought:

Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
Jesus was a carpenter. Al Capone was a community organizer.
More on this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp_2Cw4RH1c

Then read this; read the comments below the article..."Corsair/Covair/Gary" is that you? :clap:

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/10/scenes-from-the-house-floor-jesus-was-a-community-organizer-pontius-pilate-was-a-governor/
The statement from Cohen has to be in contention for Bonehead Remark of the Year. So, it originated on the Daily Kos? It's all starting to make sense, isn't it?

(He uses the word governor as a pejorative, but maybe the clown forgot that a couple of his heroes, Franklin Roosevelt and Bill Clinton, also were governors? He probably idolizes Mario Cuomo, too.)

No, I'm not the Corsair in the comment at the bottom of that page, though I do agree with it. And you can call me Gary if you want. I've been called much worse!
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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
Bag O' Nails
Sep 11 2008, 03:16 AM
beatlechick
Sep 11 2008, 01:54 AM
fab4fan
Sep 10 2008, 03:41 AM
Food for thought:

Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
:clap: :yahoo: :clap: :yahoo:
I like Gary's version better. :P

Jesus was a carpenter. Al Capone was a community organizer.
I'm glad you do, but this is much closer to the truth! :D
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Corvair

JeffLynnesBeard
Sep 5 2008, 12:05 PM
I am happy enough with McCain's pick because I think Palin will eventually - perhaps sooner than even I anticipate - become a liability to the campaign rather than an asset.
Actually, Joe Biden's position seems much more precarious at this point, but let's hope that gaffe-factory hangs in there, though, if only for the entertainment he provides. Whiny Joe is bound to be stuffing his foot down his throat at reliable intervals in the next few weeks!
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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
Bag O' Nails
Sep 11 2008, 07:17 PM
Is this the kind of sex education that we need??? :huh: :nono:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3sVPN5f62w
I think you need to look it up. Sorry to say this, I thought you were smarter than to take a political ad at face value.

Here is the bill they are talking about

SB 0099

Quote:
 
1 AN ACT concerning education.

2 Be it enacted by the People of the State of Illinois,
3 represented in the General Assembly:

4 Section 5. The School Code is amended by changing
5 Sections 27-9.1 and 27-9.2 as follows:

6 (105 ILCS 5/27-9.1) (from Ch. 122, par. 27-9.1)
7 Sec. 27-9.1. Sex Education.
8 (a) No pupil shall be required to take or participate in
9 any class or course in comprehensive sex education if the
10 pupil's his parent or guardian submits written objection
11 thereto, and refusal to take or participate in such course or
12 program shall not be reason for suspension or expulsion of
13 such pupil. Each class or course in comprehensive sex
14 education offered in any of grades K 6 through 12 shall
15 include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted
16 infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread
17 of HIV AIDS. Nothing in this Section prohibits instruction in
18 sanitation, hygiene or traditional courses in biology.
19 (b) All public elementary, junior high, and senior high
20 school classes that teach sex education and discuss sexual
21 activity or behavior intercourse shall emphasize that
22 abstinence is an effective method of preventing unintended is
23 the expected norm in that abstinence from sexual intercourse
24 is the only protection that is 100% effective against
25 unwanted teenage pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases,
26 and HIV acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS) when
27 transmitted sexually.
28 (c) In this subsection (c):
29 "Factual information" includes without limitation
30 medical, psychiatric, psychological, empirical, and
31 statistical statements.


-2- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 "Medically accurate" means verified or supported by
2 research conducted in compliance with scientific methods,
3 published in peer-review journals, where appropriate, and
4 recognized as accurate and objective by professional
5 organizations and agencies with expertise in the relevant
6 field.
7 All sex education courses that discuss sexual activity or
8 behavior intercourse shall satisfy the following criteria:
9 (1) Factual information presented in course
10 material and instruction shall be medically accurate and
11 objective.
12 (2) All (1) course material and instruction shall
13 be age and developmentally appropriate.
14 (3) Course material and instruction shall include a
15 discussion of sexual abstinence as a method to prevent
16 unintended pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections,
17 including HIV.
18 (4) Course material and instruction shall present
19 the latest medically factual information regarding both
20 the possible side effects and health benefits of all
21 forms of contraception, including the success and failure
22 rates for the prevention of pregnancy and sexually
23 transmitted infections, including HIV.
24 (5) Course material and instruction shall include a
25 discussion of the possible consequences of unintended
26 pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections, including
27 HIV.
28 (2) Course material and instruction shall teach
29 honor and respect for monogamous heterosexual marriage.
30 (3) Course material and instruction shall stress
31 that pupils should abstain from sexual intercourse until
32 they are ready for marriage.
33 (4) Course material and instruction shall include a
34 discussion of the possible emotional and psychological

-3- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 consequences of preadolescent and adolescent sexual
2 intercourse outside of marriage and the consequences of
3 unwanted adolescent pregnancy.
4 (6) (5) Course material and instruction shall
5 stress that sexually transmitted infections diseases are
6 serious possible hazards of sexual activity or behavior
7 intercourse. Pupils shall be provided with statistics
8 based on the latest medical information citing the
9 failure and success rates of all contraceptive methods
10 condoms in preventing unintended pregnancies and HIV AIDS
11 and other sexually transmitted infections diseases.
12 (7) (6) Course material and instruction shall
13 advise pupils of the laws pertaining to their financial
14 responsibility to children born in and out of wedlock.
15 (8) (7) Course material and instruction shall
16 advise pupils that it is unlawful for males or females of
17 any age to engage in sexual conduct or have sexual
18 relations with a minor as specified in of the
19 circumstances under which it is unlawful for males to
20 have sexual relations with females under the age of 18 to
21 whom they are not married pursuant to Article 12 of the
22 Criminal Code of 1961, as now or hereafter amended.
23 (9) Course material and instruction shall discuss
24 and provide for the development of positive communication
25 skills to maintain healthy relationships and avoid
26 unwanted sexual activity.
27 (10) Course material and instruction shall
28 emphasize that the pupil has the power to control
29 personal behavior. Pupils shall be encouraged to base
30 their actions on reasoning, self-discipline, sense of
31 responsibility, self-control, and ethical considerations,
32 such as respect for oneself and others.
33 (11) (8) Course material and instruction shall
34 teach pupils to not make unwanted physical and verbal

-4- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 sexual advances and how to say no to unwanted sexual
2 advances and shall include information about verbal,
3 physical, and visual sexual harassment, including without
4 limitation nonconsensual sexual advances, nonconsensual
5 physical sexual contact, and rape by an acquaintance. The
6 course material and instruction shall contain methods of
7 preventing sexual assault by an acquaintance, including
8 exercising good judgment and avoiding behavior that
9 impairs one's judgment. The course material and
10 instruction shall emphasize personal accountability and
11 respect for others and Pupils shall be taught that it is
12 wrong to take advantage of or to exploit another person.
13 The material and instruction shall also encourage youth
14 to resist negative peer pressure. The course material and
15 instruction shall inform pupils of the potential legal
16 consequences of sexual assault by an acquaintance.
17 Specifically, pupils shall be advised that it is unlawful
18 to touch an intimate part of another person as specified
19 in the Criminal Code of 1961.
20 (12) Course material and instruction shall teach
21 male pupils about male accountability for sexual violence
22 and shall teach female students about reducing
23 vulnerability for sexual violence.
24 (13) Course material and instruction shall teach
25 pupils about counseling, medical, and legal resources
26 available to survivors of sexual abuse and sexual
27 assault, including resources for escaping violent
28 relationships.
29 (14) Course material and instruction shall teach
30 pupils that it is wrong to take advantage of or to
31 exploit another person.
32 (15) Course material and instruction shall be free
33 of racial, ethnic, gender, religious, or sexual
34 orientation biases.

-5- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 (d) An opportunity shall be afforded to parents or
2 guardians to examine the instructional materials to be used
3 in such class or course.
4 (Source: P.A. 86-941.)

5 (105 ILCS 5/27-9.2) (from Ch. 122, par. 27-9.2)
6 Sec. 27-9.2. Family Life.
7 (a) If any school district provides courses of
8 instruction designed to promote wholesome and comprehensive
9 understanding of the emotional, psychological, physiological,
10 hygienic and social responsibility aspects of family life,
11 then such courses of instruction shall include the teaching
12 of prevention of unintended pregnancy and all options related
13 to unintended pregnancy, as the alternatives to abortion,
14 appropriate to the various grade levels; and whenever such
15 courses of instruction are provided in any of grades K 6
16 through 12, then such courses also shall include age
17 appropriate instruction on the prevention of sexually
18 transmitted infections, including the prevention,
19 transmission and spread of HIV AIDS. However, no pupil shall
20 be required to take or participate in any family life class
21 or course on HIV AIDS instruction if his parent or guardian
22 submits written objection thereto, and refusal to take or
23 participate in such course or program shall not be reason for
24 suspension or expulsion of such pupil.
25 (b) In this subsection (b):
26 "Factual information" includes without limitation
27 medical, psychiatric, psychological, empirical, and
28 statistical statements.
29 "Medically accurate" means verified or supported by
30 research conducted in compliance with scientific methods,
31 published in peer-review journals, where appropriate, and
32 recognized as accurate and objective by professional
33 organizations and agencies with expertise in the relevant

-6- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 field.
2 All family life courses of instruction shall satisfy the
3 following criteria:
4 (1) Factual information presented in course
5 material and instruction shall be medically accurate and
6 objective.
7 (2) All course material and instruction in classes
8 that teach sex education and discuss sexual activity or
9 behavior shall be age and developmentally appropriate.
10 (3) Course material and instruction shall include a
11 discussion of sexual abstinence as a method to prevent
12 unintended pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections,
13 including HIV.
14 (4) Course material and instruction shall present
15 the latest medically factual information regarding both
16 the possible side effects and health benefits of all
17 forms of contraception, including the success and failure
18 rates for the prevention of pregnancy and sexually
19 transmitted infections, including HIV.
20 (5) Course material and instruction shall stress
21 that sexually transmitted infections are serious possible
22 hazards of sexual activity or behavior. Pupils shall be
23 provided with statistics based on the latest medical
24 information citing the failure and success rates of all
25 contraceptive methods in preventing unintended pregnancy
26 and HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.
27 (6) Course material and instruction shall advise
28 pupils that it is unlawful for males or females of any
29 age to engage in sexual conduct or have sexual relations
30 with a minor as specified in Article 12 of the Criminal
31 Code of 1961.
32 (7) Course material and instruction shall discuss
33 and provide for the development of positive communication
34 skills to maintain healthy relationships and avoid

-7- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 unwanted sexual activity.
2 (8) Course material and instruction shall emphasize
3 that the pupil has the power to control personal
4 behavior. Pupils shall be encouraged to base their
5 actions on reasoning, self-discipline, sense of
6 responsibility, self-control, and ethical considerations,
7 such as respect for oneself and others.
8 (9) Course material and instruction shall teach
9 pupils to not make unwanted physical and verbal sexual
10 advances and how to say no to unwanted sexual advances
11 and shall include information about verbal, physical, and
12 visual sexual harassment, including without limitation
13 nonconsensual sexual advances, nonconsensual physical
14 sexual contact, and rape by an acquaintance. The course
15 material and instruction shall contain methods of
16 preventing sexual assault by an acquaintance, including
17 exercising good judgment and avoiding behavior that
18 impairs one's judgment. The course material and
19 instruction shall emphasize personal accountability and
20 respect for others and shall also encourage youth to
21 resist negative peer pressure. The course material and
22 instruction shall inform pupils of the potential legal
23 consequences of sexual assault by an acquaintance.
24 Specifically, pupils shall be advised that it is unlawful
25 to touch an intimate part of another person, as specified
26 in the Criminal Code of 1961.
27 (10) Course material and instruction shall teach
28 male pupils about male accountability for sexual violence
29 and shall teach female students about reducing
30 vulnerability for sexual violence.
31 (11) Course material and instruction shall teach
32 pupils about counseling, medical, and legal resources
33 available to survivors of sexual abuse and sexual
34 assault, including resources for escaping violent

-8- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 relationships.
2 (12) Course material and instruction in classes
3 that discuss sexual activity or behavior shall teach
4 pupils that it is wrong to take advantage of or to
5 exploit another person.
6 (13) Course material and instruction shall be free
7 of racial, ethnic, gender, religious, and sexual
8 orientation biases.
9 (c) The State Superintendent of Education shall prepare
10 and make available to local school districts courses of
11 instruction designed to satisfy the requirements of this
12 Section.
13 The State Superintendent of Education shall develop a
14 procedure for evaluating and measuring the effectiveness of
15 the family life courses of instruction in each local school
16 district, including the setting of reasonable goals for
17 reduced sexual activity, sexually transmitted diseases and
18 premarital pregnancy. The goals shall be set by the beginning
19 of the 1991-92 school year. The State Superintendent shall
20 distribute a copy of the procedure to each local school
21 district. Each local school district may develop additional
22 procedures or methods for measuring the effectiveness of the
23 family life courses of instruction within the district.
24 Before the beginning of the 1993-94 school year, the State
25 Superintendent shall collect and evaluate all relevant data
26 to determine whether the goals are being achieved.
27 (Source: P.A. 86-941.)

28 Section 10. The Critical Health Problems and
29 Comprehensive Health Education Act is amended by changing
30 Sections 2 and 3 as follows:

31 (105 ILCS 110/2) (from Ch. 122, par. 862)
32 Sec. 2. Definitions. In this Act, the following terms

-9- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 shall have the following meanings respectively prescribed for
2 them, except as the context otherwise requires:
3 (a) "Comprehensive Health Education Program": a
4 systematic and extensive educational program designed to
5 provide a variety of learning experiences based upon
6 scientific knowledge of the human organism as it functions
7 within its environment which will favorably influence the
8 knowledge, attitudes, values and practices of Illinois school
9 youth; and which will aid them in making wise personal
10 decisions in matters of health.
11 "Factual information" includes without limitation
12 medical, psychiatric, psychological, empirical, and
13 statistical statements.
14 "Medically accurate" means verified or supported by
15 research conducted in compliance with scientific methods,
16 published in peer-review journals, where appropriate, and
17 recognized as accurate and objective by professional
18 organizations and agencies with expertise in the relevant
19 field.
20 (Source: P.A. 77-1405.)

21 (105 ILCS 110/3) (from Ch. 122, par. 863)
22 Sec. 3. Comprehensive Health Education Program.
23 (a) The program established under this Act shall
24 include, but not be limited to, the following major
25 educational areas as a basis for curricula in all elementary
26 and secondary schools in this State: human ecology and
27 health, human growth and development, the emotional,
28 psychological, physiological, hygienic and social
29 responsibilities of family life, including sexual abstinence
30 and prevention of unintended pregnancy until marriage,
31 prevention and control of disease, including age appropriate
32 instruction in grades K 6 through 12 on the prevention of
33 sexually transmitted infections, including the prevention,

-10- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 transmission and spread of HIV AIDS, public and environmental
2 health, consumer health, safety education and disaster
3 survival, mental health and illness, personal health habits,
4 alcohol, drug use, and abuse including the medical and legal
5 ramifications of alcohol, drug, and tobacco use, abuse during
6 pregnancy, sexual abstinence until marriage, tobacco,
7 nutrition, and dental health.
8 (b) All comprehensive health education programs
9 established under this Act shall satisfy the following
10 criteria:
11 (1) Factual information presented in course
12 material and instruction shall be medically accurate and
13 objective.
14 (2) All course material and instruction in classes
15 that teach sex education and discuss sexual activity or
16 behavior shall be age and developmentally appropriate.
17 (3) Course material and instruction shall include a
18 discussion of sexual abstinence as a method to prevent
19 unintended pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections,
20 including HIV.
21 (4) Course material and instruction shall present
22 the latest medically factual information regarding both
23 the possible side effects and health benefits of all
24 forms of contraception, including the success and failure
25 rates for the prevention of pregnancy and sexually
26 transmitted infections, including HIV.
27 (5) Course material and instruction shall stress
28 that sexually transmitted infections are serious possible
29 hazards of sexual activity or behavior. Pupils shall be
30 provided with statistics based on the latest medical
31 information citing the failure and success rates of all
32 methods of contraception in preventing HIV and other
33 sexually transmitted infections.
34 (6) Course material and instruction shall advise

-11- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 pupils that it is unlawful for males or females of any
2 age to engage in sexual conduct or have sexual relations
3 with a minor as specified in Article 12 of the Criminal
4 Code of 1961.
5 (7) Course material and discussion shall discuss
6 and provide for the development of positive communication
7 skills to maintain healthy relationships and avoid
8 unwanted sexual activity.
9 (8) Course material and instruction shall emphasize
10 that the pupil has the power to control personal
11 behavior. Pupils shall be encouraged to base their
12 actions on reasoning, self-discipline, sense of
13 responsibility, self-control, and ethical considerations,
14 such as respect for oneself and others.
15 (9) Course material and instruction shall teach
16 pupils to not make unwanted physical and verbal sexual
17 advances and how to say no to unwanted sexual advances
18 and shall include information about verbal, physical, and
19 visual sexual harassment, including without limitation
20 nonconsensual sexual advances, nonconsensual physical
21 sexual contact, and rape by an acquaintance. The course
22 material and instruction shall contain methods of
23 preventing sexual assault by an acquaintance, including
24 exercising good judgment and avoiding behavior that
25 impairs one's judgment. The course material and
26 instruction shall emphasize personal accountability and
27 respect for others and shall also encourage youth to
28 resist negative peer pressure. The course material and
29 instruction shall inform pupils of the potential legal
30 consequences of sexual assault by an acquaintance.
31 Specifically, pupils shall be advised that it is unlawful
32 to touch an intimate part of another person as specified
33 in the Criminal Code of 1961.
34 (10) Course material and instruction shall teach

-12- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 male pupils about male accountability for sexual violence
2 and shall teach female students about reducing
3 vulnerability for sexual violence.
4 (11) Course material and instruction shall teach
5 pupils about counseling, medical, and legal resources
6 available to survivors of sexual abuse and sexual
7 assault, including resources for escaping violent
8 relationships.
9 (12) Course material and instruction in classes
10 that discuss sexual activity or behavior shall teach
11 pupils that it is wrong to take advantage of or to
12 exploit another person.
13 (13) Course material and instruction shall be free
14 of racial, ethnic, gender, religious, or sexual
15 orientation biases.
16 (c) Notwithstanding the above educational areas, the
17 following areas may also be included as a basis for curricula
18 in all elementary and secondary schools in this State: basic
19 first aid (including, but not limited to, cardiopulmonary
20 resuscitation and the Heimlich maneuver), early prevention
21 and detection of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, stroke, and
22 the prevention of child abuse, neglect, and suicide. The
23 school board of each public elementary and secondary school
24 in the State shall encourage all teachers and other school
25 personnel to acquire, develop, and maintain the knowledge and
26 skills necessary to properly administer life-saving
27 techniques, including without limitation the Heimlich
28 maneuver and rescue breathing. The training shall be in
29 accordance with standards of the American Red Cross, the
30 American Heart Association, or another nationally recognized
31 certifying organization. A school board may use the services
32 of non-governmental entities whose personnel have expertise
33 in life-saving techniques to instruct teachers and other
34 school personnel in these techniques. Each school board is

-13- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 encouraged to have in its employ, or on its volunteer staff,
2 at least one person who is certified, by the American Red
3 Cross or by another qualified certifying agency, as qualified
4 to administer first aid and cardiopulmonary resuscitation.
5 In addition, each school board is authorized to allocate
6 appropriate portions of its institute or inservice days to
7 conduct training programs for teachers and other school
8 personnel who have expressed an interest in becoming
9 qualified to administer emergency first aid or
10 cardiopulmonary resuscitation. School boards are urged to
11 encourage their teachers and other school personnel who coach
12 school athletic programs and other extracurricular school
13 activities to acquire, develop, and maintain the knowledge
14 and skills necessary to properly administer first aid and
15 cardiopulmonary resuscitation in accordance with standards
16 and requirements established by the American Red Cross or
17 another qualified certifying agency.
18 (d) No pupil shall be required to take or participate in
19 any class or course on HIV AIDS or family life instruction if
20 his parent or guardian submits written objection thereto, and
21 refusal to take or participate in the course or program shall
22 not be reason for suspension or expulsion of the pupil.
23 (e) Curricula developed under programs established in
24 accordance with this Act in the major educational area of
25 alcohol and drug use and abuse shall include classroom
26 instruction in grades 5 through 12. The instruction, which
27 shall include matters relating to both the physical and legal
28 effects and ramifications of drug and substance abuse, shall
29 be integrated into existing curricula; and the State Board of
30 Education shall develop and make available to all elementary
31 and secondary schools in this State instructional materials
32 and guidelines which will assist the schools in incorporating
33 the instruction into their existing curricula. In addition,
34 school districts may offer, as part of existing curricula

-14- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 during the school day or as part of an after school program,
2 support services and instruction for pupils or pupils whose
3 parent, parents, or guardians are chemically dependent.
4 (Source: P.A. 92-23, eff. 7-1-01.)

5 Section 90. The State Mandates Act is amended by adding
6 Section 8.27 as follows:

7 (30 ILCS 805/8.27 new)
8 Sec. 8.27. Exempt mandate. Notwithstanding Sections 6
9 and 8 of this Act, no reimbursement by the State is required
10 for the implementation of any mandate created by this
11 amendatory Act of the 93rd General Assembly.

12 Section 99. Effective date. This Act takes effect upon
13 becoming law.



All legislative votes and laws are for public viewing. Check into it before stating it as truth.
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Sep 12 2008, 12:09 AM
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Sep 11 2008, 03:16 AM
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Sep 11 2008, 01:54 AM
fab4fan
Sep 10 2008, 03:41 AM
Food for thought:

Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
:clap: :yahoo: :clap: :yahoo:
I like Gary's version better. :P

Jesus was a carpenter. Al Capone was a community organizer.
I'm glad you do, but this is much closer to the truth! :D
This is actually closer to the truth: B)

OK, when a guy named Cohen starts working Jesus into his (pseudo-)arguments, you can bet there’s some pandering going on.

But, if Cohen wants to go down that road, here’s another one:

Jesus supported family values and believed that marriage was a sacred relationship between one man and one woman!

Pontius Pilate was the representative of a society that openly endorsed orgies, pedophilia, idolatry, slavery, and then frittered away its wealth purchasing expensive entertainment for the masses in order to buy their loyalty while compromising their security and undermining their freedom.

I admit that I have found no documentary evidence that Pilate was a registered Democrat, but, hey– do the math, guys.

morganfrost on September 10, 2008 at 3:56 PM
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Sep 11 2008, 11:52 PM
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Sep 11 2008, 07:34 PM
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Sep 10 2008, 11:05 PM
fab4fan
Sep 10 2008, 03:41 AM
Food for thought:

Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
Jesus was a carpenter. Al Capone was a community organizer.
More on this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp_2Cw4RH1c

Then read this; read the comments below the article..."Corsair/Covair/Gary" is that you? :clap:

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/10/scenes-from-the-house-floor-jesus-was-a-community-organizer-pontius-pilate-was-a-governor/
The statement from Cohen has to be in contention for Bonehead Remark of the Year. So, it originated on the Daily Kos? It's all starting to make sense, isn't it?

(He uses the word governor as a pejorative, but maybe the clown forgot that a couple of his heroes, Franklin Roosevelt and Bill Clinton, also were governors? He probably idolizes Mario Cuomo, too.)

No, I'm not the Corsair in the comment at the bottom of that page, though I do agree with it. And you can call me Gary if you want. I've been called much worse!
Hi Gary! :peace:
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OMG Cathy....I don't have time to read that entire thing! It took up almost the entire page...so since I'm not "smart" enough :whistle: , give it to me in a nutshell...does Obama want sex ed taught as young as kindergarten or not?
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Sep 12 2008, 12:32 AM
beatlechick
Sep 12 2008, 12:09 AM
Bag O' Nails
Sep 11 2008, 03:16 AM
beatlechick
Sep 11 2008, 01:54 AM
fab4fan
Sep 10 2008, 03:41 AM
Food for thought:

Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
:clap: :yahoo: :clap: :yahoo:
I like Gary's version better. :P

Jesus was a carpenter. Al Capone was a community organizer.
I'm glad you do, but this is much closer to the truth! :D
This is actually closer to the truth: B)

OK, when a guy named Cohen starts working Jesus into his (pseudo-)arguments, you can bet there’s some pandering going on.

But, if Cohen wants to go down that road, here’s another one:

Jesus supported family values and believed that marriage was a sacred relationship between one man and one woman!

Pontius Pilate was the representative of a society that openly endorsed orgies, pedophilia, idolatry, slavery, and then frittered away its wealth purchasing expensive entertainment for the masses in order to buy their loyalty while compromising their security and undermining their freedom.

I admit that I have found no documentary evidence that Pilate was a registered Democrat, but, hey– do the math, guys.

morganfrost on September 10, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Oh please, I read that. How original. **ahem** my boyfriend is Jewish, the Pastor and his family that founded my Lutheran Church were all Jewish. They all believe that Chris existed, especially the late Pastor of my Church. He was born of a family of rabbis.

Barack Obama also believes in family values and marriage between a man and woman. If you didn't already know, allow me to enlighten you. He is against gay marriages but will not overrule a State, like mine, in their laws on gay marriages. Besides the gay people I know that have been in a relationship have been in a devoted loving relationship with their partner for more years than most heterosexual marriages I know. That being over 30 years.
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Sep 12 2008, 12:22 AM
JeffLynnesBeard
Sep 5 2008, 12:05 PM
I am happy enough with McCain's pick because I think Palin will eventually - perhaps sooner than even I anticipate - become a liability to the campaign rather than an asset.
Actually, Joe Biden's position seems much more precarious at this point, but let's hope that gaffe-factory hangs in there, though, if only for the entertainment he provides. Whiny Joe is bound to be stuffing his foot down his throat at reliable intervals in the next few weeks!
I actually can't wait to see Palin and Biden in a debate! :clap:
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OMG Cathy....I don't have time to read that entire thing! It took up almost the entire page...so since I'm not "smart" enough :whistle: , give it to me in a nutshell...does Obama want sex ed taught as young as kindergarten or not?
No more than what most of us had in the 70's. The parents would have to give permission, like they did with my class, and the teachers would have to have the current facts.

You really should read the whole thing.
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Sep 12 2008, 12:36 AM
OMG Cathy....I don't have time to read that entire thing! It took up almost the entire page...so since I'm not "smart" enough :whistle: , give it to me in a nutshell...does Obama want sex ed taught as young as kindergarten or not?
No more than what most of us had in the 70's. The parents would have to give permission, like they did with my class, and the teachers would have to have the current facts.

You really should read the whole thing.
I don't have the time right now; so is it a "yes" or "no" to having sex ed in Kindergarten?
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You decide. If you have the time to post, you have the time to read it. It isn't that hard to read and really isn't that long.
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Sep 12 2008, 12:38 AM
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Sep 12 2008, 12:32 AM
beatlechick
Sep 12 2008, 12:09 AM
Bag O' Nails
Sep 11 2008, 03:16 AM
beatlechick
Sep 11 2008, 01:54 AM
fab4fan
Sep 10 2008, 03:41 AM
Food for thought:

Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
:clap: :yahoo: :clap: :yahoo:
I like Gary's version better. :P

Jesus was a carpenter. Al Capone was a community organizer.
I'm glad you do, but this is much closer to the truth! :D
This is actually closer to the truth: B)

OK, when a guy named Cohen starts working Jesus into his (pseudo-)arguments, you can bet there’s some pandering going on.

But, if Cohen wants to go down that road, here’s another one:

Jesus supported family values and believed that marriage was a sacred relationship between one man and one woman!

Pontius Pilate was the representative of a society that openly endorsed orgies, pedophilia, idolatry, slavery, and then frittered away its wealth purchasing expensive entertainment for the masses in order to buy their loyalty while compromising their security and undermining their freedom.

I admit that I have found no documentary evidence that Pilate was a registered Democrat, but, hey– do the math, guys.

morganfrost on September 10, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Oh please, I read that. How original. **ahem** my boyfriend is Jewish, the Pastor and his family that founded my Lutheran Church were all Jewish. They all believe that Chris existed, especially the late Pastor of my Church. He was born of a family of rabbis.

Barack Obama also believes in family values and marriage between a man and woman. If you didn't already know, allow me to enlighten you. He is against gay marriages but will not overrule a State, like mine, in their laws on gay marriages. Besides the gay people I know that have been in a relationship have been in a devoted loving relationship with their partner for more years than most heterosexual marriages I know. That being over 30 years.
Cohen's remark was ignorant and you should expect appropriate responses...like this one:

Hitler was a community organizer, Jesus was a Maverick!

:thumbsup:
Edited by Bag O' Nails, Sep 12 2008, 12:47 AM.
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You decide. If you have the time to post, you have the time to read it. It isn't that hard to read and really isn't that long.
Yes or no; it's really a simple question, Cathy! :duh:

But since you refuse to answer (and I now know why)...the campaign ad is right...Obama approves teaching sex ed to kids starting in Kindergarten! :pinch: :no:

"Each class or course in comprehensive sex
14 education offered in any of grades K 6 through 12 shall
15 include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted
16 infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread..."


If I'm reading this wrong, then I'm sure you'll correct me. ;)
Edited by Bag O' Nails, Sep 12 2008, 12:53 AM.
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Is this the kind of sex education that we need??? :huh: :nono:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3sVPN5f62w
Oh give me a break Heidi - that crap has already been debunked. You're not that gullible are you?

It's a bit rich to be talked down to on education by supporters of people who think Iraq has a border with Pakistan and can't pronounce a simple word like "nuclear."

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Quote:
 
OK, when a guy named Cohen starts working Jesus into his (pseudo-)arguments, you can bet there’s some pandering going on.



morganfrost on September 10, 2008 at 3:56 PM


Can someone please explain to me how that is not a racist statement?
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Here's a blast from the past - and it's exactly what the Republicans would do:

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Incidentally, I showed that satire to two Catholic nuns and a Baptist minister and they had no problem with it at all. :whistle:
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Sep 11 2008, 07:25 PM
JeffLynnesBeard
Sep 7 2008, 04:16 AM

If the rest of the world could vote in America's elections then the word landslide wouldn't even begin to describe the victory Obama would enjoy. Unfortunately, that isn't the case and it is up to Americans to do the right thing and give us what the majority of the world longs for - a less aggressive, more caring America - in other words: Barack Obama for President.
Is this an example of "the rest of the world?"

These are excerpts of a public address delivered by Libyan strongman Moammar Khadafy, marking the anniversary of the US air raid on Libya. This is from June 11th of this year.

"It has been proven that there is no democracy in [the US]. Rather, it is a dictatorship no different than the dictatorships of Hitler, Napoleon, Mussolini, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, and the rest of the tyrants. In the days of crazy Reagan, the American president issued a presidential order to launch a war against Libya, for example, a presidential order to besiege Libya, a presidential order to boycott Libya, and so on. Is this a democracy or a dictatorship? … There are elections in America now." This is Khadafy, still speaking. "Along came a black citizen of Kenyan African origins, a Muslim, who had studied in an Islamic school in Indonesia. His name is Obama. All the people in the Arab and Islamic world and in Africa applauded this man.

"They welcomed him and prayed for him and for his success, and they may have even been involved in legitimate contribution campaigns to enable him to win the American presidency. But we were taken by surprise when our African Kenyan brother, who is an American national, made statements that shocked all his supporters in the Arab world, in Africa, and in the Islamic world. We hope that this is merely an elections 'clearance sale,' as they say in Egypt -- in other words, merely an elections lie. As you know, this is the farce of elections -- a person lies and lies to people, just so that they will vote for him, and afterwards, when they say to him: 'You promised this and that,' he says: 'No, this was just elections propaganda.'

"This is the farce of democracy for you. He says: 'This was propaganda, and you thought I was being serious. I was fooling you to get your votes' Allah willing, it will turn out that this was merely elections propaganda. Obama said he would turn Jerusalem into the eternal capital of the Israelis. This indicates that our brother Obama is ignorant of international politics, and is not familiar with the Middle East conflict." I am suppressing an allergy-related sneeze, ladies and gentlemen. So Obama now has Moammar Khadafy out there saying, "Yeah, he's a Muslim, a black brother with origins of Kenya and so forth, lying about Jerusalem."


Toward the end of his remarks, Khadafy said, "The thing we fear most is that the black man suffers from an inferiority complex. This is dangerous. If our brother Obama feels that because he is black he doesn't have the right to rule America, this would be a disaster, because such a feeling would make him behave whiter than the white, and go to an extreme in his persecution and degradation of the blacks. ... We still hope that this black man will take pride in his African and Islamic identity, and in his faith, and that [he will know] that he has rights in America, and that he will change America from evil to good, and that America will establish relations that will serve it well with other peoples, especially the Arabs."


What's your point?

And can we have a source please? Putting something in italics does not denote authority. It's not another anonymous chain email is it?
And even if we assume that this statement is a true translation (which I doubt), then I still ask, What's your point? Are you saying that Americans should listen to Gaddafi before deciding their vote? Do you want to give him that power?
I notice you had time to read that. :whistle:

All due respect Heidi, but I think that's a cop-out. You have time to read and repost garbage like this but when someone presents you with the actual facts that challenge the propaganda you've been posting, you're suddenly too busy to read it? Is this election not important enough to actually study the facts?

Besides, I though Gadaffi was one of the good guys now. Make your mind up!
Edited by Bill, Sep 12 2008, 01:36 AM.
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Sep 12 2008, 12:45 AM


Hitler was a community organizer, Jesus was a Maverick!

:thumbsup:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

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Sep 12 2008, 12:44 AM
You decide. If you have the time to post, you have the time to read it. It isn't that hard to read and really isn't that long.
Yes or no; it's really a simple question, Cathy! :duh:

But since you refuse to answer (and I now know why)...the campaign ad is right...Obama approves teaching sex ed to kids starting in Kindergarten! :pinch: :no:

"Each class or course in comprehensive sex
14 education offered in any of grades K 6 through 12 shall
15 include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted
16 infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread..."


If I'm reading this wrong, then I'm sure you'll correct me. ;)
Still not reading the full thing like this part:

-5- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 (d) An opportunity shall be afforded to parents or
2 guardians to examine the instructional materials to be used
3 in such class or course.
4 (Source: P.A. 86-941.)

Or this:

8 (a) No pupil shall be required to take or participate in
9 any class or course in comprehensive sex education if the
10 pupil's his parent or guardian submits written objection
11 thereto, and refusal to take or participate in such course or
12 program shall not be reason for suspension or expulsion of
13 such pupil. Each class or course in comprehensive sex
14 education offered in any of grades K 6 through 12 shall
15 include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted
16 infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread
17 of HIV AIDS. Nothing in this Section prohibits instruction in
18 sanitation, hygiene or traditional courses in biology.

If you don't think that kids that young aren't already somewhat active, think again. I have heard of kids as young as 5 (not from pedophilia) having sex. My best friend's sister, also a good friend of mine, was sexually active at the ripe old age of .......... 7!

I won't show the full details but 2 9 year olds charged with forcing 7 year old

And, uh, you might be slightly interested in this: McCain slams Obama on sex ed.

So I would rather have age appropriate factual material on sex ed, and all of it's responsibilities, be taught young than for them to continue to be victimized. My friend that was 7 when she had her first experience was molested at a younger age. She grew to liking it.
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I agree with Andy. If the rest of the world could vote, people would vote for Obama. Obama has something McCain doesn't have: charisma. And his charisma is conquering the world. If he wins he will have support of the world and I hope he wins and make great things for USA.
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You're right Michelle. It seems a lot of Republican voters want to say "f*ck you!" to the rest of the world, but how many more countries can America afford to p*ss off right now? An Obama victory would send a message to the world that the slate is clean and would be the beginning of a new era of friendship and cooperation.

So what's more important - international co-operation or stubborn pride?
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Here's what I deduct from this whole thing:

1. Campaign ads can be deceiving :duh:

2. It's a fact that the Illinois bill that Obama supported did want to include sex ed for Kindergarteners with parental agreement. I read the article Cathy posted and it said: "... called for an “age appropriate” curriculum intended to teach young children how to avoid predators and pedophiles."
I don't understand how they consider that "sex education;" to me sex ed is about pregnancy, birth control, human sexuality, etc....not about teaching young children how to get away from strangers!!
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Sep 11 2008, 07:25 PM
JeffLynnesBeard
Sep 7 2008, 04:16 AM

If the rest of the world could vote in America's elections then the word landslide wouldn't even begin to describe the victory Obama would enjoy. Unfortunately, that isn't the case and it is up to Americans to do the right thing and give us what the majority of the world longs for - a less aggressive, more caring America - in other words: Barack Obama for President.
Is this an example of "the rest of the world?"

These are excerpts of a public address delivered by Libyan strongman Moammar Khadafy, marking the anniversary of the US air raid on Libya. This is from June 11th of this year.

"It has been proven that there is no democracy in [the US]. Rather, it is a dictatorship no different than the dictatorships of Hitler, Napoleon, Mussolini, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, and the rest of the tyrants. In the days of crazy Reagan, the American president issued a presidential order to launch a war against Libya, for example, a presidential order to besiege Libya, a presidential order to boycott Libya, and so on. Is this a democracy or a dictatorship? … There are elections in America now." This is Khadafy, still speaking. "Along came a black citizen of Kenyan African origins, a Muslim, who had studied in an Islamic school in Indonesia. His name is Obama. All the people in the Arab and Islamic world and in Africa applauded this man.

"They welcomed him and prayed for him and for his success, and they may have even been involved in legitimate contribution campaigns to enable him to win the American presidency. But we were taken by surprise when our African Kenyan brother, who is an American national, made statements that shocked all his supporters in the Arab world, in Africa, and in the Islamic world. We hope that this is merely an elections 'clearance sale,' as they say in Egypt -- in other words, merely an elections lie. As you know, this is the farce of elections -- a person lies and lies to people, just so that they will vote for him, and afterwards, when they say to him: 'You promised this and that,' he says: 'No, this was just elections propaganda.'

"This is the farce of democracy for you. He says: 'This was propaganda, and you thought I was being serious. I was fooling you to get your votes' Allah willing, it will turn out that this was merely elections propaganda. Obama said he would turn Jerusalem into the eternal capital of the Israelis. This indicates that our brother Obama is ignorant of international politics, and is not familiar with the Middle East conflict." I am suppressing an allergy-related sneeze, ladies and gentlemen. So Obama now has Moammar Khadafy out there saying, "Yeah, he's a Muslim, a black brother with origins of Kenya and so forth, lying about Jerusalem."


Toward the end of his remarks, Khadafy said, "The thing we fear most is that the black man suffers from an inferiority complex. This is dangerous. If our brother Obama feels that because he is black he doesn't have the right to rule America, this would be a disaster, because such a feeling would make him behave whiter than the white, and go to an extreme in his persecution and degradation of the blacks. ... We still hope that this black man will take pride in his African and Islamic identity, and in his faith, and that [he will know] that he has rights in America, and that he will change America from evil to good, and that America will establish relations that will serve it well with other peoples, especially the Arabs."


What's your point?

And can we have a source please? Putting something in italics does not denote authority. It's not another anonymous chain email is it?
And even if we assume that this statement is a true translation (which I doubt), then I still ask, What's your point? Are you saying that Americans should listen to Gaddafi before deciding their vote? Do you want to give him that power?
I notice you had time to read that. :whistle:

All due respect Heidi, but I think that's a cop-out. You have time to read and repost garbage like this but when someone presents you with the actual facts that challenge the propaganda you've been posting, you're suddenly too busy to read it? Is this election not important enough to actually study the facts?

Besides, I though Gadaffi was one of the good guys now. Make your mind up!
I told Cathy that I didn't have the time at that moment to read that entire bill and I just wanted a simple answer! :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :roll:

Now for the reference to the article:
June 11, 2008
Following are excerpts from a public address delivered by Libyan Leader Mu’ammar Al-Qadhafi marking the anniversary of the U.S. air raid on Libya. The address aired on Al-Jazeera TV on June 11, 2008:

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/qaddaffi-says-barack-obama-is-a-muslim

My point should be very clear. Why is everything I post "garbage?"
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Sep 12 2008, 02:06 AM
You're right Michelle. It seems a lot of Republican voters want to say "f*ck you!" to the rest of the world, but how many more countries can America afford to p*ss off right now? An Obama victory would send a message to the world that the slate is clean and would be the beginning of a new era of friendship and cooperation.

So what's more important - international co-operation or stubborn pride?
So by being a Republican, we are saying "FU" to the world? Give me a break, Bill! :yawn:

McCain is a diplomat and has much more experience in the "world" than Obama!
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Moammar is now a friend of the US however, having been a terrorist and harboring terrorists in the past and you trust his word? How many US citizens has he had killed?

It was one of his sons that has made him change his views on the western world a bit. But even he admits that his father still harbors some old feelings.

Moammar is wrong about Obama. He is, nor has he ever been, a Muslim. His father was.
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Let's see if anyone has time to read this and comment, if you please:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_091108/content/01125112.guest.html
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Heidi, I really wish you would read things. That is not what I said. I said "a lot of Republican voters." Not "all," - "a lot."
Did I mention you? No, I did not.

Why is everything you post garbage? Not everything, but crap like this certainly is. So enlighten me. What is your point in reporting an article headed "Qaddafi Says Barack Obama Is A Muslim," why did you edit out the title, and do you trust a right wing 'blog to even give a fair and accurate translation?

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Even if Obama were a Muslim, I don't see why that should matter. Not all Muslims are terrorists, and he or anyone else should feel free to worship as they choose.
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Bill
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Do you really believe that caller was a Democrat who had been turned and not a Republican put-up?

Please stop insulting my intelligence!

And Heidi, just once, please state your motivation and point in posting these paranoid fantasies. I've always been up-front about my reasons for quoting or linking to anything and I think I've made it clear that I don't let any pundit of any persuasion do my thinking for me.
Please show us the same courtesy.
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Sep 12 2008, 02:27 AM
Let's see if anyone has time to read this and comment, if you please:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_091108/content/01125112.guest.html
I would like to see this as a regular news story and not one to make some of us who want to keep Roe v Wade as a law as being perverts.

I do not, nor have I ever suscribed to any liberal leaning blogs. I do, however, go on to moveon.org's site but will not publish anything they post here or anywhere else. I want the story as it is reported and not as anyone slants them. When I look up stories on moveon.org I check to see if there is anything printed on a journalistic website before I believe what they say.
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Bill
Sep 12 2008, 02:34 AM
Do you really believe that caller was a Democrat who had been turned and not a Republican put-up?

Please stop insulting my intelligence!

And Heidi, just once, please state your motivation and point in posting these paranoid fantasies. I've always been up-front about my reasons for quoting or linking to anything and I think I've made it clear that I don't let any pundit of any persuasion do my thinking for me.
Please show us the same courtesy.
Bill, people actually do change party affiliations. The widespread belief was that a lot of Republicans voted for Hillary or Obama had no intentions on voting for them in the general elections. A lot, however, do have full intentions on voting for Obama, like John here does. That does happen to where people have changed their affiliation just because they didn't like the party platform or the candidate.

Heidi, thank you for reading what I posted. Yes, never EVER trust a political ad. They only tell you what you want to hear or what they think you want to hear.
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Bill
Sep 12 2008, 02:29 AM
Heidi, I really wish you would read things. That is not what I said. I said "a lot of Republican voters." Not "all," - "a lot."
Did I mention you? No, I did not.

Why is everything you post garbage? Not everything, but crap like this certainly is. So enlighten me. What is your point in reporting an article headed "Qaddafi Says Barack Obama Is A Muslim," why did you edit out the title, and do you trust a right wing 'blog to even give a fair and accurate translation?

Bill, I read what you posted. You know that what you said made it sound like that was typical of the Republican party's attitude towards the world...sounds like we are all guilty by association and I resent that.

The article I posted about Qaddafi is not crap. If you didn't like the "right-wing" blog website I posted, then you should've researched it yourself. Here, I'll help you with another site: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7450000.stm

The man said it; take it for what it's worth. Would it be fair to say that he is speaking for some "in the world?"

And I'm getting really tired of you continuously throwing the thread at me that I made many, many months ago about Obama being a Muslim like I committed some crime by doing so.

I'm not sure what "thread title" you're referring to, but if it's the one that you keep bringing up (above) then you need to be corrected. I didn't say "Qaddafi Says" in that thread title. You should also give me some credit that I decided to change the title to a question vs a statement when I stood corrected.

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Bill
Sep 12 2008, 02:34 AM
Do you really believe that caller was a Democrat who had been turned and not a Republican put-up?

Please stop insulting my intelligence!

And Heidi, just once, please state your motivation and point in posting these paranoid fantasies. I've always been up-front about my reasons for quoting or linking to anything and I think I've made it clear that I don't let any pundit of any persuasion do my thinking for me.
Please show us the same courtesy.
"paranoid fantasies?" It just kills you that there just might be people out there who have changed their political points of view, doesn't it! I happened to have heard this today on the Rush Limbaugh radio show, and what he said about the hatred of some of the liberals of Sarah Palin was interesting.

My motivation? Discussion!

If you don't like what I post, then ignore me. ;)

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Sep 12 2008, 02:43 AM
Bill
Sep 12 2008, 02:34 AM
Do you really believe that caller was a Democrat who had been turned and not a Republican put-up?

Please stop insulting my intelligence!

And Heidi, just once, please state your motivation and point in posting these paranoid fantasies. I've always been up-front about my reasons for quoting or linking to anything and I think I've made it clear that I don't let any pundit of any persuasion do my thinking for me.
Please show us the same courtesy.
Bill, people actually do change party affiliations. The widespread belief was that a lot of Republicans voted for Hillary or Obama had no intentions on voting for them in the general elections. A lot, however, do have full intentions on voting for Obama, like John here does. That does happen to where people have changed their affiliation just because they didn't like the party platform or the candidate.

Heidi, thank you for reading what I posted. Yes, never EVER trust a political ad. They only tell you what you want to hear or what they think you want to hear.
Thank you, Cathy.

I'm not beyond reason, like some may think! ;)
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Heidi, you're still not reading what I wrote. The bolded heading was not in reference to the thread you made months ago, but the link you posted minutes ago. Do you even read the headings of what you post?

I wasn't referring to your old thread at all. But since you mention it, I would respectfully suggest that you have not learnt from the experience and continue to post ridiculous statements from extremist websites without any input of your own, and then get all upset when people point out that they're rubbish. It's nothing personal if someone posts rubbish and I say it's rubbish.

The BBC reports the Gaddafi criticised Obama so, I'll ask again, what's your point?

And just so we're clear on things, do you believe Barack Obama is a Muslim? Yes or no?
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Sep 12 2008, 02:51 AM
"paranoid fantasies?" It just kills you that there just might be people out there who have changed their political points of view, doesn't it! I happened to have heard this today on the Rush Limbaugh radio show, and what he said about the hatred of some of the liberals of Sarah Palin was interesting.

My motivation? Discussion!

If you don't like what I post, then ignore me. ;)

If your motivation is discussion, then don't insult me by saying it kills me that people have differing viewpoints. It just annoys me when people post things that are demonstrably untrue or at best, gross distortions.
Therefore, I say so.
I'll say it again: an opinion is only as good as the facts that underpin it.

Gadaffi says something stupid? Well hold the front page!
This is relevant because....??

If you want discussion, I'll give you discussion. Be careful what you wish for.
Edited by Bill, Sep 12 2008, 03:09 AM.
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You're welcome, Heidi. Fair is fair.
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Sep 12 2008, 02:43 AM
Bill, people actually do change party affiliations. The widespread belief was that a lot of Republicans voted for Hillary or Obama had no intentions on voting for them in the general elections. A lot, however, do have full intentions on voting for Obama, like John here does. That does happen to where people have changed their affiliation just because they didn't like the party platform or the candidate.
People do change parties but not like that. Not so suddenly on such a trivial issue and they don't then immediately phone up the most right-wing radio show in the country to talk all about it.
Guess what!
Parties phone up talk shows and pretend to be people they are not.
They tell LIES.

Honestly, are people that gullible?
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Bill
Sep 12 2008, 03:00 AM
beatlechick
Sep 12 2008, 02:43 AM
Bill, people actually do change party affiliations. The widespread belief was that a lot of Republicans voted for Hillary or Obama had no intentions on voting for them in the general elections. A lot, however, do have full intentions on voting for Obama, like John here does. That does happen to where people have changed their affiliation just because they didn't like the party platform or the candidate.
People do change parties but not like that. Not so suddenly on such a trivial issue and they don't then immediately phone up the most right-wing radio show in the country to talk all about it.
Guess what!
Parties phone up talk shows and pretend to be people they are not.
They tell LIES.

Honestly, are people that gullible?
People aren't that gullible and I always question when someone states they were this and such but changed because of something that happened but people do change for stupid reasons.
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Bill
Sep 12 2008, 02:55 AM
Heidi, you're still not reading what I wrote. The bolded heading was not in reference to the thread you made months ago, but the link you posted minutes ago. Do you even read the headings of what you post?

I wasn't referring to your old thread at all. But since you mention it, I would respectfully suggest that you have not learnt from the experience and continue to post ridiculous statements from extremist websites without any input of your own, and then get all upset when people point out that they're rubbish. It's nothing personal if someone posts rubbish and I say it's rubbish.

The BBC reports the Gaddafi criticised Obama so, I'll ask again, what's your point?

And just so we're clear on things, do you believe Barack Obama is a Muslim? Yes or no?
Again you assume I don't read what I post. Pardon moi for not knowing that you were referring to the article title from the "right-wing" website; I didn't post that title here on this thread and I missed it...so I thought you were bringing up my old thread.

When you spoke of me "editing" the title, I thought you were once again referring to my very old thread about Obama being a Muslim.

Again, my "point" in posting this newest speech from Qaddafi was not to ponder some point about Obama being Arab; rather it was in reference to Andy's post about "people in the world" (other than the US) that want Obama to be in the White House. I would think that his words probably represent a lot of the Arab world community, and some of the things he said raise concerns.

To answer your question, Obama has said himself he's not Muslim, so there's your answer. ;)
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Indeed they do Cathy, but I'm calling bullsh*t on this one.
Edited by Bill, Sep 12 2008, 03:11 AM.
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Bill
Sep 12 2008, 02:57 AM
Bag O' Nails
Sep 12 2008, 02:51 AM
"paranoid fantasies?" It just kills you that there just might be people out there who have changed their political points of view, doesn't it! I happened to have heard this today on the Rush Limbaugh radio show, and what he said about the hatred of some of the liberals of Sarah Palin was interesting.

My motivation? Discussion!

If you don't like what I post, then ignore me. ;)

If your motivation is discussion, then don't insult me by saying it kills me that people have differing viewpoints. It just annoys me when people post things that are demonstrably untrue or at best, gross distortions.
Therefore, I say so.
I'll say it again: an opinion is only as good as the facts that underpin it.

Gadaffi says something stupid? Well hold the front page!
This is relevant because....??

If you want discussion, I'll give you discussion. Be careful what you wish for.
You can't prove that that phone call in question was a phony! So just because I post something that is a "non-fact" you pounce! I like discussion as much as anyone, and I don't see anything wrong with discussing news articles, commentators, and facts!
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Bill
Sep 12 2008, 03:10 AM
Indeed they do Cathy, but I'm calling bullsh*t on this one.
Even if it was a fake (which there is no proof at all it was), that was not even the focus of my reason for posting that article. What I found interesting was his opinion on why the left is attacking Palin!
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Bill
Sep 12 2008, 03:10 AM
Indeed they do Cathy, but I'm calling bullsh*t on this one.
I do on most of them but you never know.
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Sep 12 2008, 03:10 AM
Again you assume I don't read what I post. Pardon moi for not knowing that you were referring to the article title from the "right-wing" website; I didn't post that title here on this thread and I missed it...so I thought you were bringing up my old thread.

When you spoke of me "editing" the title, I thought you were once again referring to my very old thread about Obama being a Muslim.

Again, my "point" in posting this newest speech from Qaddafi was not to ponder some point about Obama being Arab; rather it was in reference to Andy's post about "people in the world" (other than the US) that want Obama to be in the White House. I would think that his words probably represent a lot of the Arab world community, and some of the things he said raise concerns.

To answer your question, Obama has said himself he's not Muslim, so there's your answer. ;)
Yes he has.

But I wasn't asking what Obama has said. I'm asking what YOU think. ;)

Let's get real: Gadaffi is going to be a shitstirrer no matter who is in power and no matter who is running. That's a constant.

The fact is - and I think this is the crux of Andy's point - that America has haemorrhaged allies over the last five years. The goodwill that was poured out to America seven years ago has been squandered.

The question is, Do you want it back?
Speaking as someone who should know, I can tell you that a McCain foreign policy, as he is currently expressing it, is not going to get it back. A pre-2006 McCain might have a chance. Obama has a far better chance. There are western democracies who America can benefit from. As residents of two of them, Andy and I know what we're talking about. If you know any Libyans who have an opinion and the facilities to express them, then let's hear about it. ;)
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Bill
Sep 12 2008, 03:20 AM


But I wasn't asking what Obama has said. I'm asking what YOU think. ;)

I like to believe people tell the truth. I can only go on what he has said. That's my answer.
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Sep 12 2008, 03:16 AM
You can't prove that that phone call in question was a phony! So just because I post something that is a "non-fact" you pounce! I like discussion as much as anyone, and I don't see anything wrong with discussing news articles, commentators, and facts!
Can we at least discuss credible commentators? The fact is that Limbaugh hated McCain and railed against him during the primaries, then dutifully fell into line when he couldn't avoid it. He's a hypocrite and a blowhard.

I don't post Michael Moore articles - and on the odd occasions when I've quoted a line or two, it's been with the caveat that he's a blowhard who does as much harm as good.

And yes, I know I'm going to be accused of playing the man and not the ball here, but how obnoxious does someone have to be before we take them out of the equation completely?
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Bill
Sep 12 2008, 03:20 AM

America has haemorrhaged allies over the last five years. The goodwill that was poured out to America seven years ago has been squandered.

In your opinion, why has this happened?
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Bill
Sep 12 2008, 03:26 AM
Bag O' Nails
Sep 12 2008, 03:16 AM
You can't prove that that phone call in question was a phony! So just because I post something that is a "non-fact" you pounce! I like discussion as much as anyone, and I don't see anything wrong with discussing news articles, commentators, and facts!
Can we at least discuss credible commentators? The fact is that Limbaugh hated McCain and railed against him during the primaries, then dutifully fell into line when he couldn't avoid it. He's a hypocrite and a blowhard.

I don't post Michael Moore articles - and on the odd occasions when I've quoted a line or two, it's been with the caveat that he's a blowhard who does as much harm as good.

And yes, I know I'm going to be accused of playing the man and not the ball here, but how obnoxious does someone have to be before we take them out of the equation completely?
Well he is a big mouth, for sure! :giggle: But he is also a very popular blowhard, and many people listen to his commentaries! I know he didn't care a whole lot for McCain before he won the Repub nomination, but he, like others, fell into ranks with the conservative lines and as expected, will go full throttle against any Demo candidate....that's politics, my friend! :P
Edited by Bag O' Nails, Sep 12 2008, 03:31 AM.
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Just wanted to let you know I'm going off with hubby for awhile; I look forward to continuing this discussion later! B) :peace:
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Sep 12 2008, 03:27 AM
Bill
Sep 12 2008, 03:20 AM

America has haemorrhaged allies over the last five years. The goodwill that was poured out to America seven years ago has been squandered.

In your opinion, why has this happened?
Thank you for asking. :)

In my opinion it's because the Bush administration gratuitously used Sept 11 as a pretext for imposing their ideology on a region of the world that had nothing to do with the attacks. And that's not being wise after the event, we knew all along that Iraq had nothing to do with it. We also know that the invasion has made the region less stable and actually fostered terrorism.

Yet, whenever anyone spoke out against Bush foreign policy, they were denounced as hating America. I'm not just talking about individuals, I'm talking about entire nations including, of all people, Canada.
Friendship is not about following someone no matter what. Friendship is about telling someone candidly when they're about to do something stupid. When America's friends did just that, the Bush administration responded by behaving like a teenager who wasn't allowed to borrow the car for the weekend.

Did you see the Republican convention booing at the mention of Europe?
That's not diplomacy. That's juvenile.
It does not endear you to either your remaining allies or your potential ones.

That is why an Obama administration will do far better for getting international cooperation for America. I'm not saying that just because I support his policies. I'm saying it because it's a self-evident truth that you don't get people to help you by behaving like a dick to them.
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Sep 12 2008, 03:31 AM
Well he is a big mouth, for sure! :giggle: But he is also a very popular blowhard, and many people listen to his commentaries! I know he didn't care a whole lot for McCain before he won the Repub nomination, but he, like others, fell into ranks with the conservative lines and as expected, will go full throttle against any Demo candidate....that's politics, my friend! :P
Exactly!
It's politics - not analysis. :yes:

:peace: to you too mate.
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Bill
Sep 12 2008, 03:39 AM
Bag O' Nails
Sep 12 2008, 03:31 AM
Well he is a big mouth, for sure! :giggle: But he is also a very popular blowhard, and many people listen to his commentaries! I know he didn't care a whole lot for McCain before he won the Repub nomination, but he, like others, fell into ranks with the conservative lines and as expected, will go full throttle against any Demo candidate....that's politics, my friend! :P
Exactly!
It's politics - not analysis. :yes:

:peace: to you too mate.
And it doesn't have to be that way if commentators stick to their word. They can always go for another candidate, Independent, Libertarian, Green Party, or anyone else.

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Well, Limbaugh's comments have to be viewed in some historical context.

Limbaugh was the one who said John Edwards was a bad husband for running for president while his wife had cancer.
(okay, so he was a bad husband, but not for that reason :P )
His words were, "Most people turn to Godl, the Edwards turn to politics."

So that means he has no right to criticise anyone for saying Palin shouldn't be running for office with a special needs child.
For the record, I think her Downs sydrome child is NO reason to to run for office. But Limbaugh has no right to say that - or to criticise anyone who criticises Palin - because he's already decided that if you have a needy family member, then you should get the hell out of the race.

So you can't just go rationalising one person's shameless hypocrisy by saying "that's politics," while at the same time feeling hard done by over the heat that's been applied to Palin. That's politics too.
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Ladies and Gentlemen! I now present you with Sarah Palin's first interviews as the VP nominee!

ABC News Sarah Palin Pt 1

pt. 2

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Jimmy Kimmel and Lipstick on a Pig

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Sarah Palin ABC Interview With Charlie Gibson Part 1 (10:31)

Sarah Palin ABC Interview With Charlie Gibson Part 2 (2:43)

Sarah Palin On ABC Nightline: More With Charlie Gibson (3:25)

Sarah Palin's Charlie Gibson ABC Interview: Video And Transcript


Below is the transcript from Sarah Palin's interview tonight with ABC's Charlie Gibson. Palin's comments on national security, the Bush Doctrine and considering war with Russia are included.

Click here for more excerpts.

GIBSON:
Governor, let me start by asking you a question that I asked John McCain about you, and it is really the central question. Can you look the country in the eye and say "I have the experience and I have the ability to be not just vice president, but perhaps president of the United States of America?"

PALIN: I do, Charlie, and on January 20, when John McCain and I are sworn in, if we are so privileged to be elected to serve this country, will be ready. I'm ready.

GIBSON: And you didn't say to yourself, "Am I experienced enough? Am I ready? Do I know enough about international affairs? Do I -- will I feel comfortable enough on the national stage to do this?"

PALIN: I didn't hesitate, no.

GIBSON: Didn't that take some hubris?

PALIN: I -- I answered him yes because I have the confidence in that readiness and knowing that you can't blink, you have to be wired in a way of being so committed to the mission, the mission that we're on, reform of this country and victory in the war, you can't blink. So I didn't blink then even when asked to run as his running mate.

GIBSON: But this is not just reforming a government. This is also running a government on the huge international stage in a very dangerous world. When I asked John McCain about your national security credentials, he cited the fact that you have commanded the Alaskan National Guard and that Alaska is close to Russia. Are those sufficient credentials?

PALIN: But it is about reform of government and it's about putting government back on the side of the people, and that has much to do with foreign policy and national security issues Let me speak specifically about a credential that I do bring to this table, Charlie, and that's with the energy independence that I've been working on for these years as the governor of this state that produces nearly 20 percent of the U.S. domestic supply of energy, that I worked on as chairman of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, overseeing the oil and gas development in our state to produce more for the United States.

GIBSON: I know. I'm just saying that national security is a whole lot more than energy.

PALIN: It is, but I want you to not lose sight of the fact that energy is a foundation of national security. It's that important. It's that significant.

GIBSON: Did you ever travel outside the country prior to your trip to Kuwait and Germany last year?

PALIN: Canada, Mexico, and then, yes, that trip, that was the trip of a lifetime to visit our troops in Kuwait and stop and visit our injured soldiers in Germany. That was the trip of a lifetime and it changed my life.

GIBSON: Have you ever met a foreign head of state?

PALIN: There in the state of Alaska, our international trade activities bring in many leaders of other countries.

GIBSON: And all governors deal with trade delegations.

PALIN: Right.

GIBSON: Who act at the behest of their governments.

PALIN: Right, right.

GIBSON: I'm talking about somebody who's a head of state, who can negotiate for that country. Ever met one?

PALIN: I have not and I think if you go back in history and if you ask that question of many vice presidents, they may have the same answer that I just gave you. But, Charlie, again, we've got to remember what the desire is in this nation at this time. It is for no more politics as usual and somebody's big, fat resume maybe that shows decades and decades in that Washington establishment, where, yes, they've had opportunities to meet heads of state ... these last couple of weeks ... it has been overwhelming to me that confirmation of the message that Americans are getting sick and tired of that self-dealing and kind of that closed door, good old boy network that has been the Washington elite.

GIBSON: You said recently, in your old church, "Our national leaders are sending U.S. soldiers on a task that is from God." Are we fighting a holy war?

PALIN: You know, I don't know if that was my exact quote.

GIBSON: Exact words.

PALIN: But the reference there is a repeat of Abraham Lincoln's words when he said -- first, he suggested never presume to know what God's will is, and I would never presume to know God's will or to speak God's words. But what Abraham Lincoln had said, and that's a repeat in my comments, was let us not pray that God is on our side in a war or any other time, but let us pray that we are on God's side. That's what that comment was all about, Charlie. And I do believe, though, that this war against extreme Islamic terrorists is the right thing. It's an unfortunate thing, because war is hell and I hate war, and, Charlie, today is the day that I send my first born, my son, my teenage son overseas with his Stryker brigade, 4,000 other wonderful American men and women, to fight for our country, for democracy, for our freedoms. Charlie, those are freedoms that too many of us just take for granted. I hate war and I want to see war ended. We end war when we see victory, and we do see victory in sight in Iraq.

GIBSON: I take your point about Lincoln's words, but you went on and said, "There is a plan and it is God's plan."

PALIN: I believe that there is a plan for this world and that plan for this world is for good. I believe that there is great hope and great potential for every country to be able to live and be protected with inalienable rights that I believe are God-given, Charlie, and I believe that those are the rights to life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That, in my world view, is a grand -- the grand plan.

GIBSON: But then are you sending your son on a task that is from God?

PALIN: I don't know if the task is from God, Charlie. What I know is that my son has made a decision. I am so proud of his independent and strong decision he has made, what he decided to do and serving for the right reasons and serving something greater than himself and not choosing a real easy path where he could be more comfortable and certainly safer.

GIBSON: Let me ask you about some specific national security situations.

PALIN: Sure.

GIBSON: Let's start, because we are near Russia, let's start with Russia and Georgia. The administration has said we've got to maintain the territorial integrity of Georgia. Do you believe the United States should try to restore Georgian sovereignty over South Ossetia and Abkhazia?

PALIN: First off, we're going to continue good relations with Saakashvili there. I was able to speak with him the other day and giving him my commitment, as John McCain's running mate, that we will be committed to Georgia. And we've got to keep an eye on Russia. For Russia to have exerted such pressure in terms of invading a smaller democratic country, unprovoked, is unacceptable and we have to keep...

GIBSON: You believe unprovoked.

PALIN: I do believe unprovoked and we have got to keep our eyes on Russia, under the leadership there. I think it was unfortunate. That manifestation that we saw with that invasion of Georgia shows us some steps backwards that Russia has recently taken away from the race toward a more democratic nation with democratic ideals.That's why we have to keep an eye on Russia. And, Charlie, you're in Alaska. We have that very narrow maritime border between the United States, and the 49th state, Alaska, and Russia. They are our next door neighbors.We need to have a good relationship with them. They're very, very important to us and they are our next door neighbor.

GIBSON: What insight into Russian actions, particularly in the last couple of weeks, does the proximity of the state give you?

PALIN: They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.

GIBSON: What insight does that give you into what they're doing in Georgia?

PALIN: Well, I'm giving you that perspective of how small our world is and how important it is that we work with our allies to keep good relation with all of these countries, especially Russia. We will not repeat a Cold War. We must have good relationship with our allies, pressuring, also, helping us to remind Russia that it's in their benefit, also, a mutually beneficial relationship for us all to be getting along.

Sarah Palin on Russia:

We cannot repeat the Cold War. We are thankful that, under Reagan, we won the Cold War, without a shot fired, also. We've learned lessons from that in our relationship with Russia, previously the Soviet Union. We will not repeat a Cold War. We must have good relationship with our allies, pressuring, also, helping us to remind Russia that it's in their benefit, also, a mutually beneficial relationship for us all to be getting along.

GIBSON: Would you favor putting Georgia and Ukraine in NATO?

PALIN: Ukraine, definitely, yes. Yes, and Georgia.

GIBSON: Because Putin has said he would not tolerate NATO incursion into the Caucasus.

PALIN: Well, you know, the Rose Revolution, the Orange Revolution, those actions have showed us that those democratic nations, I believe, deserve to be in NATO. Putin thinks otherwise. Obviously, he thinks otherwise, but...

GIBSON: And under the NATO treaty, wouldn't we then have to go to war if Russia went into Georgia?

PALIN: Perhaps so. I mean, that is the agreement when you are a NATO ally, is if another country is attacked, you're going to be expected to be called upon and help. But NATO, I think, should include Ukraine, definitely, at this point and I think that we need to -- especially with new leadership coming in on January 20, being sworn on, on either ticket, we have got to make sure that we strengthen our allies, our ties with each one of those NATO members. We have got to make sure that that is the group that can be counted upon to defend one another in a very dangerous world today.

GIBSON: And you think it would be worth it to the United States, Georgia is worth it to the United States to go to war if Russia were to invade.

PALIN: What I think is that smaller democratic countries that are invaded by a larger power is something for us to be vigilant against. We have got to be cognizant of what the consequences are if a larger power is able to take over smaller democratic countries. And we have got to be vigilant. We have got to show the support, in this case, for Georgia. The support that we can show is economic sanctions perhaps against Russia, if this is what it leads to. It doesn't have to lead to war and it doesn't have to lead, as I said, to a Cold War, but economic sanctions, diplomatic pressure, again, counting on our allies to help us do that in this mission of keeping our eye on Russia and Putin and some of his desire to control and to control much more than smaller democratic countries. His mission, if it is to control energy supplies, also, coming from and through Russia, that's a dangerous position for our world to be in, if we were to allow that to happen.

Sarah Palin on Iran and Israel:

GIBSON: Let me turn to Iran. Do you consider a nuclear Iran to be an existential threat to Israel?

PALIN: I believe that under the leadership of Ahmadinejad, nuclear weapons in the hands of his government are extremely dangerous to everyone on this globe, yes.

GIBSON: So what should we do about a nuclear Iran? John McCain said the only thing worse than a war with Iran would be a nuclear Iran. John Abizaid said we may have to live with a nuclear Iran. Who's right?

PALIN: No, no. I agree with John McCain that nuclear weapons in the hands of those who would seek to destroy our allies, in this case, we're talking about Israel, we're talking about Ahmadinejad's comment about Israel being the "stinking corpse, should be wiped off the face of the earth," that's atrocious. That's unacceptable.

GIBSON: So what do you do about a nuclear Iran?

PALIN: We have got to make sure that these weapons of mass destruction, that nuclear weapons are not given to those hands of Ahmadinejad, not that he would use them, but that he would allow terrorists to be able to use them. So we have got to put the pressure on Iran and we have got to count on our allies to help us, diplomatic pressure.

GIBSON: But, Governor, we've threatened greater sanctions against Iran for a long time. It hasn't done any good. It hasn't stemmed their nuclear program.

PALIN: We need to pursue those and we need to implement those. We cannot back off. We cannot just concede that, oh, gee, maybe they're going to have nuclear weapons, what can we do about it. No way, not Americans. We do not have to stand for that.

GIBSON: What if Israel decided it felt threatened and needed to take out the Iranian nuclear facilities?

PALIN: Well, first, we are friends with Israel and I don't think that we should second guess the measures that Israel has to take to defend themselves and for their security.

GIBSON: So if we wouldn't second guess it and they decided they needed to do it because Iran was an existential threat, we would cooperative or agree with that.

PALIN: I don't think we can second guess what Israel has to do to secure its nation.

GIBSON: So if it felt necessary, if it felt the need to defend itself by taking out Iranian nuclear facilities, that would be all right.

PALIN: We cannot second guess the steps that Israel has to take to defend itself.

Sarah Palin on 'the Bush Doctrine':

GIBSON: We talk on the anniversary of 9/11. Why do you think those hijackers attacked? Why did they want to hurt us?

PALIN: You know, there is a very small percentage of Islamic believers who are extreme and they are violent and they do not believe in American ideals, and they attacked us and now we are at a point here seven years later, on the anniversary, in this post-9/11 world, where we're able to commit to never again. They see that the only option for them is to become a suicide bomber, to get caught up in this evil, in this terror. They need to be provided the hope that all Americans have instilled in us, because we're a democratic, we are a free, and we are a free-thinking society.

GIBSON: Do you agree with the Bush doctrine?

PALIN: In what respect, Charlie?

GIBSON: The Bush -- well, what do you -- what do you interpret it to be?

PALIN: His world view.

GIBSON: No, the Bush doctrine, enunciated September 2002, before the Iraq war.

PALIN: I believe that what President Bush has attempted to do is rid this world of Islamic extremism, terrorists who are hell bent on destroying our nation. There have been blunders along the way, though. There have been mistakes made. And with new leadership, and that's the beauty of American elections, of course, and democracy, is with new leadership comes opportunity to do things better.

GIBSON: The Bush doctrine, as I understand it, is that we have the right of anticipatory self-defense, that we have the right to a preemptive strike against any other country that we think is going to attack us. Do you agree with that?

PALIN: I agree that a president's job, when they swear in their oath to uphold our Constitution, their top priority is to defend the United States of America. I know that John McCain will do that and I, as his vice president, families we are blessed with that vote of the American people and are elected to serve and are sworn in on January 20, that will be our top priority is to defend the American people.

GIBSON: Do we have a right to anticipatory self-defense? Do we have a right to make a preemptive strike again another country if we feel that country might strike us?

PALIN: Charlie, if there is legitimate and enough intelligence that tells us that a strike is imminent against American people, we have every right to defend our country. In fact, the president has the obligation, the duty to defend.

GIBSON: Do we have the right to be making cross-border attacks into Pakistan from Afghanistan, with or without the approval of the Pakistani government?

PALIN: Now, as for our right to invade, we're going to work with these countries, building new relationships, working with existing allies, but forging new, also, in order to, Charlie, get to a point in this world where war is not going to be a first option. In fact, war has got to be, a military strike, a last option.

GIBSON: But, Governor, I'm asking you: We have the right, in your mind, to go across the border with or without the approval of the Pakistani government.

PALIN: In order to stop Islamic extremists, those terrorists who would seek to destroy America and our allies, we must do whatever it takes and we must not blink, Charlie, in making those tough decisions of where we go and even who we target.

GIBSON: And let me finish with this. I got lost in a blizzard of words there. Is that a yes? That you think we have the right to go across the border with or without the approval of the Pakistani government, to go after terrorists who are in the Waziristan area?

PALIN: I believe that America has to exercise all options in order to stop the terrorists who are hell bent on destroying America and our allies. We have got to have all options out there on the table.
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Bill
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Watch the interview first...

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Overall, it was a good performance. But she's still trying to press all those reactionary-right buttons that are all part of a discredited ideology. So long as Republicans continue to embrace such an ideology, a change of leadership will not signal a change of direction. If you want a change of direction, you need a change of ideas.
Edited by Bill, Sep 12 2008, 07:06 AM.
Put a puppet on it.
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beatlechick
Sep 12 2008, 05:41 AM
I agree. That's not funny. If you put something near an animal's mouth, it's going to think it's food. Of course it bit you, you dickwad!
Put a puppet on it.
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Monkey Chow
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Two things: I happen to pray that everything I do is according to God's plan so I understood that whole thing from the beginning.

Secondly, we elect a lot of Governors to the Presidency here in the US. None of them have foreign policy experience.
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Hmm....

Karl Rove vs. Karl Rove
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Sep 12 2008, 12:33 AM
Hi Gary! :peace:
Hello Heidi!!
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Bill
Sep 12 2008, 06:54 AM
Watch the interview first...

Spoiler: click to toggle


Overall, it was a good performance. But she's still trying to press all those reactionary-right buttons that are all part of a discredited ideology. So long as Republicans continue to embrace such an ideology, a change of leadership will not signal a change of direction. If you want a change of direction, you need a change of ideas.
Nice summary, but don't forget Alaska is also close to Russia. A few of my favorite excerpts:

NO BLINKING ALLOWED!

GIBSON: And you didn't say to yourself, "Am I experienced enough? Am I ready? Do I know enough about international affairs? Do I -- will I feel comfortable enough on the national stage to do this?"

PALIN: I didn't hesitate, no.

GIBSON: Didn't that take some hubris?

PALIN: I -- I answered him yes because I have the confidence in that readiness and knowing that you can't blink, you have to be wired in a way of being so committed to the mission, the mission that we're on, reform of this country and victory in the war, you can't blink. So I didn't blink then even when asked to run as his running mate.

IT'S THE OIL STUPID!

GIBSON: But this is not just reforming a government. This is also running a government on the huge international stage in a very dangerous world. When I asked John McCain about your national security credentials, he cited the fact that you have commanded the Alaskan National Guard and that Alaska is close to Russia. Are those sufficient credentials?

PALIN: But it is about reform of government and it's about putting government back on the side of the people, and that has much to do with foreign policy and national security issues Let me speak specifically about a credential that I do bring to this table, Charlie, and that's with the energy independence that I've been working on for these years as the governor of this state that produces nearly 20 percent of the U.S. domestic supply of energy, that I worked on as chairman of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, overseeing the oil and gas development in our state to produce more for the United States.

GIBSON: I know. I'm just saying that national security is a whole lot more than energy.

PALIN: It is, but I want you to not lose sight of the fact that energy is a foundation of national security. It's that important. It's that significant.

HEADS OF STATE ARE HARD TO MEET

GIBSON: I'm talking about somebody who's a head of state, who can negotiate for that country. Ever met one?

PALIN: I have not and I think if you go back in history and if you ask that question of many vice presidents, they may have the same answer that I just gave you.

EXACT QUOTE?

GIBSON: You said recently, in your old church, "Our national leaders are sending U.S. soldiers on a task that is from God." Are we fighting a holy war?

PALIN: You know, I don't know if that was my exact quote.

GIBSON: Exact words.

PALIN: But the reference there is a repeat of Abraham Lincoln's words when he said -- first, he suggested never presume to know what God's will is, and I would never presume to know God's will or to speak God's words. But what Abraham Lincoln had said, and that's a repeat in my comments, was let us not pray that God is on our side in a war or any other time, but let us pray that we are on God's side.

RETHINKING GOD

GIBSON: But then are you sending your son on a task that is from God?

PALIN: I don't know if the task is from God, Charlie.

FOREIGN AFFAIRS CREDENTIALS

GIBSON: What insight into Russian actions, particularly in the last couple of weeks, does the proximity of the state give you?

PALIN: They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.

HOW TO DEAL WITH RUSSIA

GIBSON: And under the NATO treaty, wouldn't we then have to go to war if Russia went into Georgia?

PALIN: Perhaps so.

GIBSON: And you think it would be worth it to the United States, Georgia is worth it to the United States to go to war if Russia were to invade.

PALIN: What I think is that smaller democratic countries that are invaded by a larger power is something for us to be vigilant against. We have got to be cognizant of what the consequences are if a larger power is able to take over smaller democratic countries. And we have got to be vigilant. We have got to show the support, in this case, for Georgia.

NO SECOND GUESSING ISRAEL

GIBSON: But, Governor, we've threatened greater sanctions against Iran for a long time. It hasn't done any good. It hasn't stemmed their nuclear program.

PALIN: We need to pursue those and we need to implement those. We cannot back off. We cannot just concede that, oh, gee, maybe they're going to have nuclear weapons, what can we do about it. No way, not Americans. We do not have to stand for that.

GIBSON: What if Israel decided it felt threatened and needed to take out the Iranian nuclear facilities?

PALIN: Well, first, we are friends with Israel and I don't think that we should second guess the measures that Israel has to take to defend themselves and for their security.

GIBSON: So if we wouldn't second guess it and they decided they needed to do it because Iran was an existential threat, we would cooperative or agree with that.

PALIN: I don't think we can second guess what Israel has to do to secure its nation.

GIBSON: So if it felt necessary, if it felt the need to defend itself by taking out Iranian nuclear facilities, that would be all right.

PALIN: We cannot second guess the steps that Israel has to take to defend itself.

THE BUSH DOCTRINE

GIBSON: Do you agree with the Bush doctrine?

PALIN: In what respect, Charlie?

GIBSON: The Bush -- well, what do you -- what do you interpret it to be?

PALIN: His world view.

GIBSON: No, the Bush doctrine, enunciated September 2002, before the Iraq war.

PALIN: I believe that what President Bush has attempted to do is rid this world of Islamic extremism, terrorists who are hell bent on destroying our nation. There have been blunders along the way, though. There have been mistakes made. And with new leadership, and that's the beauty of American elections, of course, and democracy, is with new leadership comes opportunity to do things better.

GIBSON: The Bush doctrine, as I understand it, is that we have the right of anticipatory self-defense, that we have the right to a preemptive strike against any other country that we think is going to attack us. Do you agree with that?

PALIN: I agree that a president's job, when they swear in their oath to uphold our Constitution, their top priority is to defend the United States of America.
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Experience is not the most important thing. The president of Brazil when he won the election, the opposition used to say he would destroy the country because he didn't have experience, education, anything except for pretty speeches. I voted for him. One of many things that happened in his government.


http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/world/2008/06/25/brazil-becomes-the-new-food-superpower.html

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/world/2008/06/25/american-farmers-try-their-luck-in-brazil.html

The Sociologist President FHC almost sold the country and our souls. In this government corruption is being investigated and punished. The Sociologist helped to rob us and didn't care about it. There are more things to be done, but this governemnt opened the doors, the government of the man who didn't go to the University, who didn't have experience, only pretty speeches.

Experience and the possibility of a good government are not synonymous.
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There are only a few weeks until the election, an election that will decide the next President of the United States The person elected will be the president of all Americans, not just the Democrats or the Republicans. To show our solidarity as Americans, let's all get together and show each other our support for the candidate of our choice. It's time that we all came together, Democrats and Republicans alike. If you support the policies and character of John McCain, please drive with your headlights on during the day.

If you support Obama, please drive with your headlights off at night.

Thank you for your participation in this patriotic endeavor!

Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey.
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Monkey Chow
Sep 12 2008, 05:11 PM
There are only a few weeks until the election, an election that will decide the next President of the United States The person elected will be the president of all Americans, not just the Democrats or the Republicans. To show our solidarity as Americans, let's all get together and show each other our support for the candidate of our choice. It's time that we all came together, Democrats and Republicans alike. If you support the policies and character of John McCain, please drive with your headlights on during the day.

If you support Obama, please drive with your headlights off at night.

Thank you for your participation in this patriotic endeavor!

:rofl: :cry: :no: :clap: :duh: :giggle: :nono:
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Corvair

Bill
Sep 12 2008, 03:26 AM
The fact is that Limbaugh hated McCain and railed against him during the primaries, then dutifully fell into line when he couldn't avoid it. He's a hypocrite and a blowhard.
Come on, Bill. If you listen to Rush Limbaugh then you know he still mocks McCain on almost a daily basis. His impression of McCain's voice sounds like a character from Beavis and Butthead.

Limbaugh, like many of us, backed someone else during the primaries. Now that the nominees have been determined, it's obvious for whom he will vote. He's not a hypocrite. Blowhard? Hmmm...
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I know Bill will want to buy some of this
Edited by Monkey Chow, Sep 12 2008, 05:20 PM.
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Sep 12 2008, 05:11 PM
There are only a few weeks until the election, an election that will decide the next President of the United States The person elected will be the president of all Americans, not just the Democrats or the Republicans. To show our solidarity as Americans, let's all get together and show each other our support for the candidate of our choice. It's time that we all came together, Democrats and Republicans alike. If you support the policies and character of John McCain, please drive with your headlights on during the day.

If you support Obama, please drive with your headlights off at night.

Thank you for your participation in this patriotic endeavor!

How about those who vote for McCain drive in front of a train?

:whistle:

Two can play the "smarmy comment" game, Monkey Chow. :P
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Corvair

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Sep 12 2008, 04:48 PM
GIBSON: You said recently, in your old church, "Our national leaders are sending U.S. soldiers on a task that is from God." Are we fighting a holy war?

PALIN: You know, I don't know if that was my exact quote.

GIBSON: Exact words...
This is yet another stark example of why we have to stay vigilant and beware of how these sly creeps create the wrong impression. Gibson did not have the "exact words." The bold italics below are what Gibson conveniently left out.

“Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God.”
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Monkey Chow
Sep 12 2008, 05:11 PM
There are only a few weeks until the election, an election that will decide the next President of the United States The person elected will be the president of all Americans, not just the Democrats or the Republicans. To show our solidarity as Americans, let's all get together and show each other our support for the candidate of our choice. It's time that we all came together, Democrats and Republicans alike. If you support the policies and character of John McCain, please drive with your headlights on during the day.

If you support Obama, please drive with your headlights off at night.

Thank you for your participation in this patriotic endeavor!

I got this as an email forward, too! :rofl: :whistle: :blink:
Get ready to duck! :giggle:
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Corvair
Sep 12 2008, 05:13 PM


Limbaugh, like many of us, backed someone else during the primaries. Now that the nominees have been determined, it's obvious for whom he will vote. He's not a hypocrite.
:yes:
I said that, too. B)
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Monkey Chow
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Just trying to add a little levity. People on both sides seem rather harsh.
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Jacaranda
Sep 12 2008, 03:28 PM
I'm seeing a Jon Stewart video making fun of Day 2 of the RNC Convention...is this what you wanted us to see?
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Sep 12 2008, 08:06 PM
Just trying to add a little levity. People on both sides seem rather harsh.
Don't worry...I get it! ;)
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Bill
Sep 12 2008, 03:38 AM
Thank you for asking. :)

In my opinion it's because the Bush administration gratuitously used Sept 11 as a pretext for imposing their ideology on a region of the world that had nothing to do with the attacks. And that's not being wise after the event, we knew all along that Iraq had nothing to do with it. We also know that the invasion has made the region less stable and actually fostered terrorism.

I can understand this to a certain extent.

However, in my opinion ;) I think there is more to this story.

Many nations in the world were not wanting to commit troops because: 1. Money (let's face it; it's costly to be in a war) 2. Fear (retaliation/terrorist attacks on their own soil) 3. Genuine disinterest in our (USA's) "problems"

For example, where is the world outcry for what Russia is doing to its neighbor, Georgia? I'm not saying military action is or should be the number one reaction, but all the protesting and screaming about it virtually does nothing with a bully. Sometimes that bully needs to get his arse whooped to make him behave.

Remember, after Sept. 11th, Bush had an 80% approval rating for awhile. And he was supported by the Congress to go to war. Maybe the "blame" shouldn't only be on Bush; after all, he had the backing of most of the govt! But how quickly we forget....

Again, I hate war, but we're in it now so the real important question is, where do we go from here? And that is where the differences in Obama and McCain lie. And we must ask ourselves...what is more important at this point...what the "world" thinks of us or should we finish what was started and do it right? Sometimes it takes a bigger person to do what is right knowing you can't please everyone.

All I know is that I don't want to be President... :innocent:

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Sep 12 2008, 08:10 PM
Monkey Chow
Sep 12 2008, 08:06 PM
Just trying to add a little levity. People on both sides seem rather harsh.
Don't worry...I get it! ;)
Being a McCain supporter, it would have sounded better if you'd have turned the joke around - that way it would have made it easier to laugh (as it would have been at your own expense) and it wouldn't have come across the way it did.

The reason people may seem harsh is because it's a bit of a big deal. We've had eight years of a Republican in the White House, you've got a candidate in John McCain who has gone back on many of his beliefs to stand as President, a VP pick who is only on the ticket because she happens to possess a uterus and we have people here posting commentary on right-wing blogs, by complete f*ckwits like Rush Limbaugh and presenting Libya's President's anti-Israel ramblings as a view indicative of the "rest of the world"?!?!

In the words of Charlie Brown... good grief. Some people here don't seem to be able to see the trees for the forest, that's all I can say.
Edited by JeffLynnesBeard, Sep 12 2008, 08:31 PM.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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JeffLynnesBeard
Sep 12 2008, 08:28 PM


The reason people may seem harsh is because it's a bit of a big deal. We've had eight years of a Republican in the White House, you've got a candidate in John McCain who has gone back on many of his beliefs to stand as President, a VP pick who is only on the ticket because she happens to possess a uterus and we have people here posting commentary on right-wing blogs, by complete f*ckwits like Rush Limbaugh and presenting Libya's President's anti-Israel ramblings as a view indicative of the "rest of the world"?!?!

Several thoughts:

1. The only reason Palin is on the ticket is because she has a uterus?! Oh Andy, now you're starting to sound like most of the Democrats out there who only would support a liberal-minded female candidate! :nono:

2. What's wrong with posting "right-wing" blogs or quoting anything from a "right-wing" source? Are we only allowed to use sources from places like MSNBC, The Washington Post, The New York Times or even blogs like The Daily Kos?

3. If Rush is a f*ckwit, then is Jon Stewart,Michael Moore, etc. also considered the same?

4. Posting Qaddafi's speech was my attempt to respond to your post about some of the "world" that wants Obama. According to what he said, he represents a portion of the Arab world. I personally think he's a nutcase, but he is a political figure. I think what he said is truly what many think...who's to say why the rest of the world out there want Obama to rule a country that isn't even theirs!
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JeffLynnesBeard
Sep 12 2008, 08:28 PM
Bag O' Nails
Sep 12 2008, 08:10 PM
Monkey Chow
Sep 12 2008, 08:06 PM
Just trying to add a little levity. People on both sides seem rather harsh.
Don't worry...I get it! ;)
Being a McCain supporter, it would have sounded better if you'd have turned the joke around - that way it would have made it easier to laugh (as it would have been at your own expense) and it wouldn't have come across the way it did.

The reason people may seem harsh is because it's a bit of a big deal. We've had eight years of a Republican in the White House, you've got a candidate in John McCain who has gone back on many of his beliefs to stand as President, a VP pick who is only on the ticket because she happens to possess a uterus and we have people here posting commentary on right-wing blogs, by complete f*ckwits like Rush Limbaugh and presenting Libya's President's anti-Israel ramblings as a view indicative of the "rest of the world"?!?!

In the words of Charlie Brown... good grief. Some people here don't seem to be able to see the trees for the forest, that's all I can say.
I like it better my way. You would think a board moderator would be at least a little unbiased and not try to cram his political views down someone else's throat, especially since it is not his country anyway. Over and out.
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Monkey Chow
Sep 12 2008, 05:18 PM
I know Bill will want to buy some of this
I want this one!

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and I will buy these for my gf who can't make up her mind about whom to vote for:

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Maybe Bill would like this one:

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Monkey Chow
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Look, ^ a sense of humor.
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Mindy
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I want an Obama Bobblehead.
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beatlechick
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Monkey Chow
Sep 12 2008, 02:35 PM
Two things: I happen to pray that everything I do is according to God's plan so I understood that whole thing from the beginning.

Secondly, we elect a lot of Governors to the Presidency here in the US. None of them have foreign policy experience.
I can only think of 3!

Reagan
Carter
and
Dumbya

I guess 1 out of 3 ain't bad.

Fortunately, Palin is not running for the Presidency! :boogie:
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fab4fan
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FDR comes to mind. That makes 3 out of 4. (The 1 is Carter) :rofl:
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Monkey Chow
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You forgot Clinton.
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Monkey Chow
Sep 12 2008, 08:58 PM
JeffLynnesBeard
Sep 12 2008, 08:28 PM
Bag O' Nails
Sep 12 2008, 08:10 PM
Monkey Chow
Sep 12 2008, 08:06 PM
Just trying to add a little levity. People on both sides seem rather harsh.
Don't worry...I get it! ;)
Being a McCain supporter, it would have sounded better if you'd have turned the joke around - that way it would have made it easier to laugh (as it would have been at your own expense) and it wouldn't have come across the way it did.

The reason people may seem harsh is because it's a bit of a big deal. We've had eight years of a Republican in the White House, you've got a candidate in John McCain who has gone back on many of his beliefs to stand as President, a VP pick who is only on the ticket because she happens to possess a uterus and we have people here posting commentary on right-wing blogs, by complete f*ckwits like Rush Limbaugh and presenting Libya's President's anti-Israel ramblings as a view indicative of the "rest of the world"?!?!

In the words of Charlie Brown... good grief. Some people here don't seem to be able to see the trees for the forest, that's all I can say.
I like it better my way. You would think a board moderator would be at least a little unbiased and not try to cram his political views down someone else's throat, especially since it is not his country anyway. Over and out.
Ahh, buddy you have it all wrong when it comes to Andy. True, he is a mod but mods are entitled to their opinion. Just go over to pm.com and you'll see the same thing happening over there. Another thing, Andy may be English but his girlfriend is not. She is from San Diego. Last time I looked, San Diego is still a part of my state, California, and ironically California is still a part of the US. So he can "cram" (as you state it I like 'state' much better) his opinions anywhere he pleases. As for Bill, since he is also a Mod and lives in Australia, his girlfriend lives in Louisiana.

And since the US is a "World" leader, anyone around the world that has an opinion should be able to voice them no matter who they are and where they come from. What goes on in the US does not stay in the US. Our influence is felt worldwide whether we like it or not.
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Monkey Chow
Sep 12 2008, 11:57 PM
You forgot Clinton.
Yes, I did. Thank you.
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fab4fan
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Governors who became president
Thomas Jefferson
James Monroe
Martin Van Buren
William Henry Harrison
John Tyler
James K. Polk
Andrew Johnson
Grover Cleveland
Theodore Roosevelt
Woodrow Wilson
Warren G. Harding
Calvin Coolidge
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Jimmy Carter
Ronald Reagan
Bill Clinton
George W. Bush
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Monkey Chow
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Four out of the last 5.
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Bag O' Nails
Sep 12 2008, 08:24 PM

For example, where is the world outcry for what Russia is doing to its neighbor, Georgia? I'm not saying military action is or should be the number one reaction, but all the protesting and screaming about it virtually does nothing with a bully. Sometimes that bully needs to get his arse whooped to make him behave.

Remember, after Sept. 11th, Bush had an 80% approval rating for awhile. And he was supported by the Congress to go to war. Maybe the "blame" shouldn't only be on Bush; after all, he had the backing of most of the govt! But how quickly we forget....

Again, I hate war, but we're in it now so the real important question is, where do we go from here? And that is where the differences in Obama and McCain lie. And we must ask ourselves...what is more important at this point...what the "world" thinks of us or should we finish what was started and do it right? Sometimes it takes a bigger person to do what is right knowing you can't please everyone.



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For example, where is the world outcry for what Russia is doing to its neighbor, Georgia? I'm not saying military action is or should be the number one reaction, but all the protesting and screaming about it virtually does nothing with a bully. Sometimes that bully needs to get his arse whooped to make him behave.


How do you think they were convinced to stop the aggression? The US didn't do it alone. It was Germany, France, and the UN. I have 2 friends who are from Ukraine. They are telling me that we don't know the full story.

Quote:
 
Remember, after Sept. 11th, Bush had an 80% approval rating for awhile. And he was supported by the Congress to go to war. Maybe the "blame" shouldn't only be on Bush; after all, he had the backing of most of the govt! But how quickly we forget....


Not true. This was one of the sticking points in the Hillary campaign. Many of us chose not to vote for her for this very reason.

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Again, I hate war, but we're in it now so the real important question is, where do we go from here? And that is where the differences in Obama and McCain lie. And we must ask ourselves...what is more important at this point...what the "world" thinks of us or should we finish what was started and do it right? Sometimes it takes a bigger person to do what is right knowing you can't please everyone.


How do you term "do it right?" especially when we had no right to even start it.
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