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| 2008 U.S. Presidential Election | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 22 2007, 05:49 AM (37,427 Views) | |
| Bag O' Nails | Sep 8 2008, 01:46 AM Post #1901 |
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MaccaMomma
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Bill, I disagree with the notion that abortion is a non-issue; there are still many people out that feel strongly about it and will not vote for any candidate that is pro-choice. If we already agreed that the laws won't be changed no matter who wins, then why make a wager with me? Sorry, I'll have to decline. I wish Roe v Wade would be overturned, but I don't think it'll happen. The next president will be appointing probably two more judges to the Supreme Court. McCain will attempt to bring in pro-life judges; Obama will not. A pro-life president may not be able to change the laws, but to me, it speaks a lot about his character & values. It comforts me to know that my president values the life of the unborn. I may be mistaken, but Obama believes in partial birth abortion. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. My question to him would then be, Mr. Obama, at what point is it okay to abort an unborn baby? |
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| Bill | Sep 8 2008, 01:57 AM Post #1902 |
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Well, wasn't it Guiliani who mocked Obama for being cosmopolitan? A New York mayor? If I might take the liberty of softening Linda's "no sympathy" comment, I don't think it's so much a case that they "deserve" to pay more than they are. I think it's more that the upper tax brackets have been kept artificially low and all that would happen under the Obama plan would be that the upper tax brackets return to paying their fair share. |
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| Bill | Sep 8 2008, 02:07 AM Post #1903 |
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Heidi, The Supreme Court exists to interpret the law. Therefore, it really shouldn't matter who is appointed, the law is still the law. If you're suggesting that McCain appointments would change the way the law is read, wouldn't that make them "activist judges"? I thought that was a bad thing. With respect, I really would encourage you to look into McCain's past statements on abortion. He has been really wishy-washy on the issue and to me, that does not show character or values. He's been against overturning Roe v Wade, then he'd been for it. If he had stuck by his story, that would show character. And if he's changed his story in the past, what's to say he won't change it in the future? How can you trust him? Unless the law is changed, then changing the judges won't change anything unless they choose to "legislate from the bench" which, again, I thought was a bad thing. |
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| Bill | Sep 8 2008, 02:10 AM Post #1904 |
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PS:
I completely agree with this. I would be comforted even more to know that he values the life and welfare of the already born just as much.
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| Deleted User | Sep 8 2008, 04:05 AM Post #1905 |
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I saw both of them several times. Why do you ask? |
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| fab4fan | Sep 8 2008, 04:49 AM Post #1906 |
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Caretaker
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<Can someone insert that emoticon that is flat on his back laughing hysterically.> |
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| Bill | Sep 8 2008, 05:59 AM Post #1907 |
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You're very dry! Linda, that's actually very disappointing of the Dems. It proves that they wanted the illusion of diversity and that on a first come/first served, they're actually not as diverse as they would like to appear. Perhaps we should give the Republicans points for honesty on this one. |
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| fab4fan | Sep 8 2008, 01:43 PM Post #1908 |
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MSNBC Drops Olbermann, Matthews as News Anchors http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/08/AR2008090800008_pf.html A step in the right direction? |
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| Bill | Sep 8 2008, 01:57 PM Post #1909 |
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More like gutlessness, I'd say. Okay, Olbermann wears his partisanship on his sleeve, but Matthews was totally gay for Guiliani. I know two wrongs don't make a right, but who complained about Fox News sending all their partisan hacks to cover the conventions? I'll say this much for Fox, they've got balls. It looks like MSNBC hasn't. |
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| fab4fan | Sep 8 2008, 01:59 PM Post #1910 |
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WOW! Seems like we have someone from the Obama campaign reading our little ole forum.
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 8 2008, 11:48 PM Post #1911 |
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MaccaMomma
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I would agree that McCain doesn't want "activist" judges and wants them to enforce the existing laws and not legislate from the bench. However, by him appointing conservative judges who are pro-life, it opens the door for them to possibly overturn Roe v Wade OR make some kind of adjustment to the current abortion laws. Again, in all probability, it won't happen but there's always a chance, where there would be none with Obama's choices of judges. Regardless of McCain's past views of his pro-life stance, he boldly states now that he is pro-life and that in his eyes, life begins at conception. I would hold him to that as president and would hope that after such a bold statement during his campaign, that he wouldn't flip-flop and change his mind. I would like to trust him, but as we know, no one is 100 percent trustworthy. Where do the candidates stand on abortion: Obama: Favors abortion rights and opposes any constitutional amendment to overturn the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade. Disagrees with the Supreme Court ruling to uphold the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act. Did not cast vote on Prohibiting Funds for Groups that Perform Abortions amendment in 2007. McCain: Opposes abortion rights, and believes Roe v. Wade is flawed and should be overturned by the Supreme Court. Voted for the Prohibit Partial Birth Abortion bill in 2003, and supports Supreme Court ruling upholding it. Voted for Prohibiting Funds for Groups that Perform Abortions amendment in 2007. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 12:34 AM Post #1912 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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I totally agree with what Bill says. The people already born have a right to being able to live a better life, to be able to afford a better life, to be able to be educated for a better life, to be able to be healthy for a better life yet I don't really see that in McCains proposals. Why is it that the people who are against abortion are usually for the killing of others when it comes to war and capital punishment yet the people who are pro-choice (does not mean pro-abortion, however) don't necessarily believe that war is the only option nor are they necessarily pro-capital punishment? In my opinion, if you truly value life you have to value all life and not just that of the unborn. I DO value ALL life, including the unborn which is why I could never have an abortion yet I am pro-choice. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 12:35 AM Post #1913 |
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| Jacaranda | Sep 9 2008, 12:43 AM Post #1914 |
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This is the heart of the matter as always with Republican plans. Anyone who is a true fiscal conservative should run screaming. Unfortunately this is the Republican game plan, and it's as its has been since Reagan was in office. Decades ago, Dems were referred to as "tax and spend" politicians. Republicans should be called "spend and spend" ones. Linda, I also admire Steinem and was happy to hear her view on Palin, as a true frontline feminist with legitimate credibility. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 9 2008, 12:46 AM Post #1915 |
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MaccaMomma
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It's quite obvious, isn't it? Abortion destroys an innocent, unborn life and captial punishment is meant to punish a cruel, vicious murderer. If you really think about it, it's odd to me that those who are pro-choice are typically anti-death penalty! |
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| Bill | Sep 9 2008, 12:51 AM Post #1916 |
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But you can't have it both ways. You can't be against activist judges legislating from the bench while quietly hoping that that's exactly what will happen. If McCain is elected, how do you plan to hold him to it? If he flips again - as he has in the quite recently - what can you do about it? It's too late, he's in there and he can do whatever he likes. Bush promised to change the tone of Washington. How did that work out? Do you see what I mean? I'm not trying to change your mind about anything. I'm just trying to understand why you trust him to do as he says he will when what he's saying now is the antithesis of everything he's said for the previous 20 years. Seems awfully convenient to me.
Edited by Bill, Sep 9 2008, 01:02 AM.
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| Bill | Sep 9 2008, 12:57 AM Post #1917 |
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Here's the thing I don't understand: Abortion would be a complete non-issue if we could eliminate unwanted pregnancies. And do you know the nest way of reducing unwanted pregnancies? S E X - E D U C A T I O N !! So why is it that those who are the most ardently against abortion (and I have nothing against that stance) are also for abstinence-only sex education? If there's anything that will INCREASE unwanted pregnancies, it's not telling kids how NOT to get pregnant. Sarah Palin doesn't have to look very far for evidence of that. And yes, I know that's a cheap shot but something has to break through the cognitive dissonance inherent in this argument. It's almost as if the religious right don't want to reduce unwanted pregnancies. If you had to choose between contraception and abortion, which is the lesser of two evils? Edited by Bill, Sep 9 2008, 12:58 AM.
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| Bill | Sep 9 2008, 01:00 AM Post #1918 |
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If the killer's mother had had an abortion, he never would have grown up to kill and his victim would still live. Don't get me wrong, what I just said was a stupid, semantic, point-scoring argument and I don't subscribe to the idea for one second. Food for thought, though.
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 01:01 AM Post #1919 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Just found something fairly interesting: Wall Street Journal CAPITAL JOURNAL By GERALD F. SEIB McCain Shifts Right on Abortion September 4, 2008; Page A2 St. Paul, Minn. What are we to conclude about the state of the abortion debate from the fact that Sen. John McCain wavered in choosing a running mate between Sen. Joe Lieberman, who gets a voting score of zero from groups that oppose abortion rights, and Gov. Sarah Palin, who gets perfect reviews from those same groups? And what to make of the fact that the prime-time schedule for the Republican National Convention Wednesday night started with a speech by former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, a onetime presidential contender who was noteworthy for his support of abortion rights, and ended with a speech by Gov. Palin, who has said the only time she would support an abortion is if the mother's life was in danger? ![]() Anti-abortion supporters show their support outside Pepsi Center, where the Democratic National Convention was held, in Denver. Perhaps these are signs that Republicans are moving toward a middle ground on the subject of abortion and constructing the fabled "big tent" that accommodates a broad range of views on the issue. More likely, though, the Palin nomination means Sen. McCain and his party now have made their own choice on this subject -- and that choice is to hold to the traditional Republican anti-abortion ground. If that is the case, the lines between Republicans and Democrats have just grown sharper on this subject. The volume on the abortion debate, relatively low throughout this campaign year, is about to go up. Indeed, a leading abortion-rights group already is using the Palin nomination to raise money from its supporters. And all that, in turn, means frustration for those activists on both sides of the partisan divide who would like to lower the heat in the long-running national argument on the legality of abortion. These people would like to turn instead to a calmer discussion about something on which both sides might agree: practical steps to make abortion less common. Sen. McCain himself has developed over the years a somewhat fuzzy profile on the subject. He has long been considered pro-life -- that is to say, an opponent of abortion in general terms -- and has consistently opposed taxpayer funding for abortions. But when running for president in 2000 he spoke out in favor of exceptions to a ban on abortions in the cases of rape, incest or when the life of the mother is in danger. He also said at one point that he wouldn't support a repeal of Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion, arguing that such a repeal might compel women to seek dangerous and illegal operations. He soon backed away from that stance, though. Now, after actively considering two running mates who openly support Roe v. Wade -- Sen. Lieberman and former Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Ridge -- he has selected instead Gov. Palin, whose views on the subject lie at the opposite end of the Republican spectrum from those two men. The McCain deliberations certainly suggest abortion isn't the central issue to Sen. McCain that it is to others on both sides of the debate. In any case, he now has a running mate who opposes abortion in almost all circumstances. And the party platform adopted at his Republican Party's convention here this week wavers not a bit on opposition to abortion. That platform statement on abortion declares that "the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed," and it includes no language supporting exceptions. Whatever emphasis the McCain campaign chooses to put on this position, it is certain the campaign of Democratic Sen. Barack Obama will use it to try to draw away women voters from the Republican ticket. At the Democratic convention last week, Obama campaign manager David Plouffe told reporters: "I think a lot of voters don't have a full appreciation of Sen. McCain's position on this." The Democratic campaign will be trying hard to change that. As will outside groups supporting abortion rights. In the wake of Sen. McCain's choice of Gov. Palin, NARAL Pro-Choice America posted a plea for donations on its Web site, which reads: "John McCain's selection today of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his vice-presidential running mate is further evidence that a McCain presidency will be just another four years of the same old Bush-style antichoice policies." None of this tension is particularly good news for a growing band of activists from both parties who would like to move the abortion debate beyond what they consider a sterile argument over the legality of abortion -- which doesn't seem likely to be resolved anytime soon. The idea is to agree on policies, backed with federal funding, that might have the practical effect of reducing the 1.2 million abortions performed in the U.S. each year. Some of those steps -- sex education, abstinence promotion, birth control, adoption services, counseling for unwed mothers -- are more popular with one side of the debate or the other, but some are consensus items. There is, in fact, legislation pending in Congress called the Reducing the Need for Abortion and Supporting Parents Act, sponsored by pro-life Ohio Rep. Tim Ryan and pro-choice Connecticut Rep. Rosa DeLauro, designed to do exactly that. The Democratic platform calls for steps to "help reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and thereby also reduce the need for abortions," and the Republican platform cites the "obligation to assist" women struggling with unplanned pregnancies. The signs now, though, suggest the abortion debate in the next two months may be less about common ground than real differences. Write to Gerald F. Seib at jerry.seib@wsj.com1 |
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| Bill | Sep 9 2008, 01:07 AM Post #1920 |
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People always miss the point. Abortion, like drugs, is the symptom, not the disease. I've always said that if you fight despair, the drug problem will take care of itself. Likewise, if you fight unwanted pregnancies, the abortion problem will take care of itself. But the anti-abortionists don't want to do that. They don't want people to have control over their own bodies, and I'm not talking about abortion, I'm talking about using simple procedures to avoid getting pregnant in the first place. Why would they possibly be against that? It's because they want to force their own values onto everyone else. But wait a minute, I thought that was a bad thing! Land of the free? We'll see.... |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 9 2008, 01:09 AM Post #1921 |
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MaccaMomma
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When a woman can predict whether her unborn child will become Mozart or Manson, then let's talk. More fodder. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 01:12 AM Post #1922 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Sorry, maybe I'm ignorant. I am both anti-abortion and death penalty. We all have the right to life even the ones who have been proven to have taken a life. It is not our judgement to make! What kind of punishment is death when you are dead? We have already been down this route before. I see you only picked on one subject. I did state war and capital punishment and not just capital punishment. What about the subject of an unjustified war where thousands of coalition lives and nearly a million of innocent lives have been taken? Edited by beatlechick, Sep 9 2008, 01:13 AM.
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 01:16 AM Post #1923 |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 9 2008, 01:22 AM Post #1924 |
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MaccaMomma
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So in your opinion, what is the "disease?" In all reality, I think that pro-lifers don't oppose having control over their own bodies. When it comes to having control over your body, I don't know that anyone could argue having life-changing, life-saving medical interventions to thwart off illness and disease. But, when it comes to taking a separate, innocent life, which happens to need a host to grow, that's where the line gets drawn! I happen to think that abstinence is a great way to avoid unwanted teen pregnancy, but I'm also not foolish enough to think that most teens won't experience pre-marital sex. And since the majority of abortions are due to unwanted/unexpected teen pregnancies, let's try to do what we can by tapping all resources; educationally & spiritually, through our families & faith-based organizations. Organizations like Planned Parenthood are funded by our tax dollars and abortions are free for those who ask. I condone using my tax dollars for education but condemn using my money to pay for abortions. Is this what you mean by "forcing" values? To bring this back to the topic of the presidential race, I think the reason Obama (and others who are proponents of "choice") realize that if they admit life begins at conception, that that will threaten the existence of Roe v Wade. |
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| Bill | Sep 9 2008, 01:22 AM Post #1925 |
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Touché! ![]() And who has a greater influence over that development than the mother? |
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| Bill | Sep 9 2008, 01:28 AM Post #1926 |
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Well, I think i just said what the disease was. All evidence shows (actual evidence, not opinion) that abstinence-only sex education increases unwanted pregnancies. It's a fact. Another fact is that people are going to have sex. Get over it. Being educated about contraception allows people to take control of their bodies and responsibility for what happens to them. Since Obama is the candidate of personal responsibility and not government telling people what they can and can't do, I think the choice (no pun intended) is clear.
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 9 2008, 01:28 AM Post #1927 |
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MaccaMomma
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War, abortion, captial punishment...heavy topics. I didn't comment on the war because the topic at hand has been Obama/McCain's stances on pro-life issues. |
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| Bill | Sep 9 2008, 01:31 AM Post #1928 |
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Everything is interlinked. You vote for the whole package. Forgive the bumper-sticker sentiments but, War is not a pro-life policy.
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 9 2008, 01:35 AM Post #1929 |
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MaccaMomma
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Too late....the gov't already is involved in our reproductive lives by paying for abortions upon demand. We don't "need" Obama for this...although if he gets in, the gov't will take over much more of our money and now get in bed with me and my doctor. Where does it say that McCain is against sex education? |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 9 2008, 01:36 AM Post #1930 |
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MaccaMomma
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So war for any reason is wrong? Or is it okay if it's justifiable only? |
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| Bill | Sep 9 2008, 01:39 AM Post #1931 |
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Well, I think you're playing semantics now. Was the Iraq war necessary? Or justifiable? It was not. |
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| Bill | Sep 9 2008, 01:43 AM Post #1932 |
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That's not true. When has the government ever forced anyone to have an abortion? Paying for something is not interfering. People don't HAVE to take up the offer. And the only reason government pays for it is to reduce the rick of life-threatening backyard procedures. It's called harm minimisation. When you're in government, you have to choose the lesser of two evils. You can't afford to be an ideologue. Obama in bed with you and your doctor? Firstly, you should get another doctor if he has to get into bed with you. Secondly, you should learn a but about public health cover and not listen to the scaremongering. As Andy says, most of the rest of us call public health care "normal." And I haven't contracted leprosy yet. By choosing a proponent of abstinence-only as his running mate, McCain has made it pretty clear where he stands on sex education. At least it's where he stands this week. Edited by Bill, Sep 9 2008, 01:46 AM.
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 9 2008, 01:44 AM Post #1933 |
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MaccaMomma
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No I'm not using semantics at all! You were the one who said everything was interlinked and lumping it all together as a "whole package." I'm trying to point out that it's not as simple as that. Is it automatic that if you're pro-life, that you're also pro-war and pro-death penalty? I'm not pro-war. I hate it. But I think there are times it is necessary aka "justifiable." I didn't defend this particular war here at all on this thread. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 01:45 AM Post #1934 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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But war is a pro-life issue. So many innocent lives are destroyed yet pro-lifers only focus on abortion. Yes we do need education on birth control yet too many people don't want sex education in school and condemn the use of condoms. BTW, a pro-choicer (Obama) is anti Iraq war yet a pro-lifer (McCain) is pro Iraq war. Who wins? Who loses? |
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| Bill | Sep 9 2008, 01:47 AM Post #1935 |
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Good for you! Yet this was was perpetrated by the abstinence-only, pro-lifers. Ironic, no? |
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| Bill | Sep 9 2008, 01:48 AM Post #1936 |
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McCain wins because more disadvantaged kids means more army recruits means more troop surges. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 9 2008, 01:52 AM Post #1937 |
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MaccaMomma
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That total crap. If the gov't did not provide and pay for abortions, the abortion rate in this country would be greatly diminished! And to use the excuse that it prevents "backyard procedures" is just another poor reason that the industry uses to condone its practice. And don't think for a moment that abortion is not a money-making industry...it uses the plight of hopeless and scared teens to its advantage. Wouldn't society be better if we as adults show our young folks by example that life if important and valuable; that they need to take responsibility for their choices rather than to take the "easy" way out by destroying a life that came about accidently? Like I said earlier, I'm not naive enough to think teens won't have sex! So let's use those tax dollars wisely and positively by promoting abstinence and sex ed!!! |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 9 2008, 01:55 AM Post #1938 |
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MaccaMomma
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I just read your edit and you know what I mean by "getting in bed with me." The health care system as it stands now is terrible, but I still don't think gov't run health care is the answer! As Obama says in reference to the war, not all avenues have been exhausted! |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 9 2008, 01:58 AM Post #1939 |
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MaccaMomma
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That's plain mean and untrue. McCain knows firsthand how terrible war can be. He just doesn't want to tuck tail and run at this point. He believes in finishing strong and bringing home the troops in a timely fashion, too. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 02:00 AM Post #1940 |
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you think that the Gov't pays for most abortions? Think again! Cost of abortions Get "In the Know": Questions About Pregnancy, Contraception and Abortion Cost of Abortion How much does a surgical abortion cost? In 2001, the average charge for a surgical abortion at 10 weeks’ gestation was $468; but since most abortions in the United States are performed at low-cost clinics, women on average paid $372 for the procedure. (31) How much does a medical abortion cost? In 2001, the average charge for a medical abortion was $487. (31) Who pays for abortions? Some 74% of women pay for abortions with their own money; 13% of abortions are covered by Medicaid, and 13% are billed directly to private insurance. Some women who pay for the procedure themselves may receive insurance reimbursement later. (31) Does the U.S. government help poor women who need abortions pay for them? Congress has barred the use of federal Medicaid funds to pay for abortions, except when the woman’s life would be endangered by a full-term pregnancy, or in cases of rape or incest. As of November 2006, 17 states used their own funds to subsidize abortion for poor women. (38) In actuality, however, about half of these states provide little to no funds to cover these services. (39) How many states prohibit public funding of abortions? A total of 32 states and the District of Columbia prohibit public funding of abortions, except in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest. South Dakota only provides public funding of abortions when necessary to protect the woman’s life, which is not in compliance with the federal Medicaid statute. (38) This resource was produced with support from the David and Lucille Packard Foundation and the Roth Family Foundation. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 02:02 AM Post #1941 |
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I agree that what Bill said is mean but I see nowhere that McCain has proposed to bring the troops home in a timely fashion. Funny that the proposals Obama came up with is being adopted by both the Iraqi gov't and the US. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 02:13 AM Post #1942 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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More on who pays: guttmacher institute guttmacher pt. II an overview |
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| Mindy | Sep 9 2008, 04:01 AM Post #1943 |
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I don't agree with Sarah Palin's views on gay rights and abortion. I just found this article tonight, and thought it was an interesting read. Palin's Church Promotes Gay Conversion ANCHORAGE, Alaska (Sept. 8) - Gov. Sarah Palin's church is promoting a conference that promises to convert gays into heterosexuals through the power of prayer. "You'll be encouraged by the power of God's love and His desire to transform the lives of those impacted by homosexuality," according to the insert in the bulletin of the Wasilla Bible Church, where Palin has prayed for about six years. Palin's conservative Christian views have energized that part of the GOP electorate, which was lukewarm to John McCain's candidacy before he named her as his vice presidential choice. She is staunchly anti-abortion (opposing exceptions for rape and incest), and opposes gay marriage and spousal rights for gay couples. Focus on the Family, a national Christian fundamentalist organization, is conducting the Love Won Out Conference in Anchorage, about 30 miles from Wasilla. Palin, campaigning with McCain in the Midwest on Friday, has not publicly expressed a view on the so-called "pray away the gay" movement. Larry Kroon, senior pastor at Palin's church, was not available to discuss the matter Friday, said a church worker who declined to give her name. Gay activists in Alaska said Palin has not worked actively against their interests, but early in her administration she supported a bill to overrule a court decision to block state benefits for gay partners of public employees. At the time, less than one-half of 1 percent of state employees had applied for the benefits, which were ordered by a 2005 ruling by the Alaska Supreme Court. Palin reversed her position and vetoed the bill after the state attorney general said it was unconstitutional. But her reluctant support didn't win fans among Alaska's gay population, said Scott Turner, a gay activist in Anchorage. "Less than 1 percent of state employees would even apply for benefits, so why make a big deal out of such a small number?" he said. "I think gay Republicans are going to run away" if Palin supports efforts like the prayers to convert gays, said Wayne Besen, founder of the New York-based Truth Wins Out, a gay rights advocacy group. Besen called on Palin to publicly express her views now that she's a vice presidential nominee. "People are looking at Sarah Palin as someone who might feasibly be in the White House," he said. http://news.aol.com/elections/article/palins-church-promotes-gay-conversion/165471?icid=100214839x1208835540x1200532686 Edited by Mindy, Sep 9 2008, 04:07 AM.
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| Bill | Sep 9 2008, 05:37 AM Post #1944 |
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I'd be all for that, but the abstinence-only crowd - which now includes McCain - won't allow it. Why not?
Why not? If we can do it, why can't you? John McCain has had government-provided health care all his life. If it's good enough for him....
Believing in something and being able to make it happen are two very different things. McCain thinks it's safe to walk the streets of Baghdad.... if you're surrounded by 100 troops, half a dozen humvees and a couple of blackhawks. Hey, I believe in efficient solar energy but that doesn't mean I know how to make it happen. There are certain harsh realities of life that have to be faced. One of those realities is that there is no good way out of Iraq. That's not McCain's fault, it's Bush's. But then again, McCain has voted with Bush over 90% of the time. So if you'd give Bush more than 9 out of 10 for the job he's done, then vote for McCain. If you think he's done less, then a McCain vote is just sh*tting in your own nest. And it gives me no pleasure to say that. I always liked McCain. I'm so deeply disappointed that he sold out to the extreme right. I only hope that if he is elected, he reverts back to the real McCain of before 2006. And then we'll talk about that wager again.
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 05:52 AM Post #1945 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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There's a Christian group of 'ex' gays called Exodus that promotes that belief, Holly. Only problem is, their success rate really took a nosedive when a few years ago it was found out that the founding members didn't convert being straight. Here is their website: Exodus International This is very disturbing: exodusmandate.com Not much offends me but this does. I guess these people have no respect for the children. Children are not that stupid. If they think that by being in school with gay people, as if they weren't before the law, is going to corrupt them...........then they have much to learn about and from children. If they are really that concerned than have a talk with the children. Yes, some schools have gay-straight clubs but have had them for a long time. Waaaay before this law was written. How the hell are we going to learn to respect each other, which IS the Christian way, when we can't even tolerate one another? If this group wants to take their children and homeschool them, than by all means do it. Get them the hell out. Don't let them learn that there are others out there that are just like them but have different sexuality. By all means, don't let them mingle with gays, it may rub off on them. It may rub off on them that gays, bi, and transgenders are people too. We can have less than this holier-than-thou attitude and more of respecting people like you want to be respected. Who knows, they may actually learn from one another. I know I have by getting to know the people who go to my Church. Both gay and straight! Edited by beatlechick, Sep 9 2008, 05:54 AM.
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| Bill | Sep 9 2008, 06:51 AM Post #1946 |
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Mean? Guilty as charged. It's also cheap and tacky. Never said I was above that. Untrue? Debatable. We know that many people join the forces as the only way to to get a good education and break the cycle of poverty. They literally bet their lives on a better future. These are benefits than McCain wants to take away - or at least delay. Now I think it's entirely fair to say that McCain hasn't and wouldn't connect the dots the way I did. That would be mean and unworthy. So is me being mean and unworthy like that better or worse than linking to racist sites that claim Obama wants to let all the Muslim hoards destroy America? I just want to get a handle on what's fair and foul in the discussion. ![]()
Laugh, dammit! It's funny.
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| Bill | Sep 9 2008, 06:54 AM Post #1947 |
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Does that mean that being in a class with girls is the reason I grew nipples? |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Sep 9 2008, 02:22 PM Post #1948 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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But hasn't George W. Bush - a Republican - been President for the last 8 years? Yet Planned Parenthood (an excellent and vital organisation for America's young and impoverished, if you ask me - they do a lot more than just arrange abortions for those who choose to have them) have continued to do their job during the full term of his Presidency. It is, therefore, highly unlikely that McCain - who has an even less interventionist attitude than Bush on this subject - will do anything to stop the work that Planned Parenthood do. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Sep 9 2008, 02:25 PM Post #1949 |
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To use a phrase I generally dislike:- Bingo. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Sep 9 2008, 02:33 PM Post #1950 |
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It's true. If you make abortions illegal and force prospective parents who cannot support their children financially to carry through to term, you are virtually guaranteeing another life being brought up in difficult circumstances and poverty. How many impoversished young Americans (who have perhaps had to work during their school years in order to survive, therefore hindering their education) believe that their only way to earn a decent living is from the armed forces? Is it merely co-incidence that US Army recruiters target low-income area schools? This is exactly where the pro-war, pro-life conservative viewpoint ties in nicely. The ordinary middle-American conservative may not have looked at it that way, but you can be sure that your 'leaders' have. |
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| Monkey Chow | Sep 9 2008, 02:41 PM Post #1951 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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There is always adoption. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Sep 9 2008, 02:55 PM Post #1952 |
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Of course - and that is always preferable to abortion. Carrying to term is always preferable to abortion. There are a host of things that are preferable to abortion and abortion should be the last resort after the person has been counselled all other options have been explored, but - in my opinion - it should always be an option. Like Cathy, I am pretty much anti-abortion but pro-choice and, like Bill, all for treating the disease rather than the symptoms. |
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| Monkey Chow | Sep 9 2008, 03:24 PM Post #1953 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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We adopted my eldest and then had our younger the normal way, fertility issues, bla bla bla. Anyway, when we adopted him, the neonatal nurse in the biggest baby hospital in north Atlanta, metro population about 6 million, said it was the first newborn adoption she had seen in five years. I used to consider the abortion issue a bullsh*t issue that people used to cover up more crucial issues because I don't think one can legislate morality. However, I now wonder why some people are so adamant about retaining the legal right to kill unborn children. |
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| BlueMolly2009 | Sep 9 2008, 07:57 PM Post #1954 |
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LOLcat Freak
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I'm pro-life for myself but pro-choice for other woman. The thing that gets me is when women use abortion for birth control. They don't use birth control when they have sex and then they get pregnant and don't want the baby, so they have an abortion. I'm for abortion when it comes to incest and rape. I heard that Sarah Palin is even against abortion for incest & rape. So, I get raped and have to carry full term my rapist baby? No way, I'm not doing that. I don't want to be reminded of what happened to me. Andy, I know I haven't answered you about my polticial beliefs. Well, as I said I'm pro-choice, I think everyone should have equal affordable health care, I believe that illegal aliens should go through the correct process to get here and if they don't, they should get deported, I'm anti-war, I think Bush went to Iraq for the wrong reasons, I think we need welfare reform, far too many people abuse the system, IMHO. I also think there should be better laws for the disabled. A lot of people still discriminate against the disabled. |
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Molly Myspace My Twitter My FriendFeed My Facebook ![]() Boston Chihuahuas (I took this while at a Starbucks) | |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 9 2008, 08:02 PM Post #1955 |
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MaccaMomma
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Not all people who join the military are poor or impoverished. Military careers many times run in the family as a proud tradition. There is no shame in going into the armed forces for a career or to use the system to pay for their college education. Many realize that by doing so, the gov't pays their way for education and gives excellent opportunity and benefits to which they may not be privy to otherwise. This may be especially attractive to an impoverished person and a great way to get out of their poverty. And many enlist during times of war out of their own feelings of duty to their country. No one is forced to join! Have you ever considered that if we make sex education (which would include both abstinence and birth control) the focus and not abortion; that if life and personal responsbility were fostered rather than providing the free means of disposing of the unwanted unborn, that maybe it would be a better solution? And if after all that, if there is still an unexpected pregnancy, require that they take personal responsibility for their actions by giving the baby up for adoption rather than destroying a life? I would venture to say that the number of unwanted pregnancies would decline, and all the empty arms of those people who can't have babies or want more would be filled. Isn't fostering a society of life rather than death more attractive? People will go to great lengths to tout their love for animals and vegetarianism, yet many of these same people think it's okay to allow the continuance of disposing of unwanted human life in the name of "freedom of choice." |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 9 2008, 08:10 PM Post #1956 |
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MaccaMomma
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But therein lies the problem. Abortion is not promoted as the "last resort" rather it's the "convenient" method to solve the "problem." If young girls were routinely shown an ultrasound and saw the heartbeat prior to having an abortion, just how many do you think would go through with it? Did anyone see the movie, "Juno?" Once the girl finds out the baby has fingernails, she decides it's a life and she "can't" abort it. |
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| Monkey Chow | Sep 9 2008, 08:24 PM Post #1957 |
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I'd vote for you. |
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| Monkey Chow | Sep 9 2008, 08:25 PM Post #1958 |
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Absolutely. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 9 2008, 09:35 PM Post #1959 |
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I'm Pro-Life for myself and Pro-Choice for women. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 11:29 PM Post #1960 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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You were inside your mother's belly. You tell me!
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 11:32 PM Post #1961 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Of course there's always adoption. The preferable way but you try telling a 14-15 yo girl to carry the baby or try telling the woman that was raped and impregnated they have to carry the baby. Me? I would keep the baby and wish I had enough money to adopt children but I don't. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 11:33 PM Post #1962 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Which brings up the question, once again ........Why do we retain the legal right to kill somebody else's child? |
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 11:41 PM Post #1963 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Heidi, WE DO HAVE SEX EDUCATION! In my area we have had sex ed since I was in Jr. High in 1970. It was known as a Health Class. They DO talk about birth control. It was up to the parents as to if they would allow their child to go to the class. Sadly a lot of parents don't. Planned Parenthood does hold classes on sex ed and birth control. They would be more than happy to counsel children on birth control. Again, sadly a lot of parents don't want their children to have lessons on sex ed as they think, WRONGLY, that it will lead to their child having sex which they are probably already doing. |
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| Monkey Chow | Sep 9 2008, 11:45 PM Post #1964 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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I don't think most anti-abortion people oppose abortion in case or rape or incest. Besides, even if one is opposed to abortion, if elected one must swear to uphold the Constitution. Are you talking about war? We have a volunteer army. Are you talking about the enemy? Well, that is unfortunate. I'd love for there to be eternal peace, even wrote a song about it, but reality doesn't always allow it. I know, Iraq, right, well, I think Iraq and the world will be better off in the end regardless of the reasons we went in the first place. You'll get your wish in January no matter what. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 9 2008, 11:49 PM Post #1965 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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I am talking about unjustifiable war (I am talking about the soldier and all unfortunate - according to McCain, Bush, and Cheney - innocent deaths which in Iraq is over 100,000) and the death penalty. If we don't have the right to kill an unborn child, what gives us the right to kill someone else's child? Most anti-abortion people can understand in case of the woman's health, incest, and rape ......... but not all. |
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| Bill | Sep 10 2008, 01:15 AM Post #1966 |
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I've been saying that all along about sex education but the Palin crowd won't allow it. They stand for abstinence-only, which INCREASES the number of unwanted pregnancies. That's a fact, it's been proven. You have to ask yourself why people like Palin and her ilk are too thick to put two and two together. Adoption would be wonderful, but as has already been pointed out, there aren't crowds of barren couples lining up hoping for a baby to adopt. No-one is "forced" to join the military but if it's their only way out of poverty (because of a messed up economy), then that's conscription by stealth. Look at the number of people in the army because they're betting their lives on a better future compared to those who joined because of a "proud family tradition" and you're going to find a huge difference. |
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| Bill | Sep 10 2008, 01:31 AM Post #1967 |
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Better off for who? You might want to tell the people who live there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5dkmfGN0nE |
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| maccascruff | Sep 10 2008, 02:00 AM Post #1968 |
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Sing the Changes
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/08/AR2008090803088.html?wpisrc=newsletter Palin Billed State for Nights Spent at Home By James V. Grimaldi and Karl Vick Washington Post Staff Writers Tuesday, September 9, 2008; Page A01 ANCHORAGE, Sept. 8 -- Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin has billed taxpayers for 312 nights spent in her own home during her first 19 months in office, charging a "per diem" allowance intended to cover meals and incidental expenses while traveling on state business. The governor also has charged the state for travel expenses to take her children on official out-of-town missions. And her husband, Todd, has billed the state for expenses and a daily allowance for trips he makes on official business for his wife. Palin, who earns $125,000 a year, claimed and received $16,951 as her allowance, which officials say was permitted because her official "duty station" is Juneau, according to an analysis of her travel documents by The Washington Post. The governor's daughters and husband charged the state $43,490 to travel, and many of the trips were between their house in Wasilla and Juneau, the capital city 600 miles away, the documents show. Gubernatorial spokeswoman Sharon Leighow said Monday that Palin's expenses are not unusual and that, under state policy, the first family could have claimed per diem expenses for each child taken on official business but has not done so. Before she became the Republican Party's vice presidential nominee, Palin was little known outside Alaska. Now, with the campaign emphasizing her executive experience, her record as mayor of Wasilla, as a state oil-and-gas commissioner and as governor is receiving intense scrutiny. During her speech at the Republican National Convention last week, Palin cast herself as a crusader for fiscal rectitude as Alaska's governor. She noted that she sold a state-owned plane used by the former governor. "While I was at it, I got rid of a few things in the governor's office that I didn't believe our citizens should have to pay for," she said to loud applause. Speaking from Palin's Anchorage office, Leighow said Palin dealt with the plane and also trimmed other expenses, including forgoing a chef in the governor's mansion because she preferred to cook for her family. The first family's travel is an expected part of the job, she said. "As a matter of protocol, the governor and the first family are expected to attend community events across the state," she said. "It's absolutely reasonable that the first family participates in community events." The state finance director, Kim Garnero, said Alaska law exempts the governor's office from elaborate travel regulations. Said Leighow: "The governor is entitled to a per diem, and she claims it." The popular governor collected the per diem allowance from April 22, four days after the birth of her fifth child, until June 3, when she flew to Juneau for two days. Palin moved her family to the capital during the legislative session last year, but prefers to stay in Wasilla and drive 45 miles to Anchorage to a state office building where she conducts most of her business, aides have said. Palin rarely sought reimbursement for meals while staying in Anchorage or Wasilla, the reports show. She wrote some form of "Lodging -- own residence" or "Lodging -- Wasilla residence" more than 30 times at the same time she took a per diem, according to the reports. In two dozen undated amendments to the reports, the governor deleted the reference to staying in her home but still charged the per diem. Palin charged the state a per diem for working on Nov. 22, 2007 -- Thanksgiving Day. The reason given, according to the expense report, was the Great Alaska Shootout, an annual NCAA college basketball tournament held in Anchorage. In separate filings, the state was billed about $25,000 for Palin's daughters' expenses and $19,000 for her husband's. Flights topped the list for the most expensive items, and the daughter whose bill was the highest was Piper, 7, whose flights cost nearly $11,000, while Willow, 14, claimed about $6,000 and Bristol, 17, accounted for about $3,400. One event was in New York City in October 2007, when Bristol accompanied the governor to Newsweek's third annual Women and Leadership Conference, toured the New York Stock Exchange and met local officials and business executives. The state paid for three nights in a $707-a-day hotel room. Garnero said the governor's office has the authority to approve hotel stays above $300. Asked Monday about the official policy on charging for children's travel expenses, Garnero said: "We cover the expenses of anyone who's conducting state business. I can't imagine kids could be doing that." But Leighow said many of the hundreds of invitations Palin receives include requests for her to bring her family, placing the definition of "state business" with the party extending the invitation. One such invitation came in October 2007, when Willow flew to Juneau to join the Palin family on a tour of the Hub Juneau Christian Teen Center, where Palin and her family worship when they are in Juneau. The state gave the center $25,000, according to a May 2008 memo. Leighow noted that under state policy, all of the governor's children are entitled to per diem expenses, even her infant son. "The first family declined the per diem [for] the children," Leighow said. "The amount that they had declined was $4,461, as of August 5." The family also charged for flights around the state, including trips to Alaska events such as the start of the Iditarod dog-sled race and the Iron Dog snowmobile race, a contest that Todd Palin won. Meanwhile, Todd Palin spent $725 to fly to Edmonton, Alberta, for "information gathering and planning meeting with Northern Alberta Institute of Technology," according to an expense report. During the three-day trip, he charged the state $291 for his per diem. A notation said "costs paid by Dept. of Labor." He also billed the state $1,371 for a flight to Washington to attend a National Governors Association meeting with his wife. Gov. Palin has spent far less on her personal travel than her predecessor: $93,000 on airfare in 2007, compared with $463,000 spent the year before by her predecessor, Frank Murkowski. He traveled often in an executive jet that Palin called an extravagance during her campaign. She sold it after she was sworn into office. "She flies coach and encourages her cabinet to fly coach as well," said Garnero, whose job is equivalent to state controller. "Some do, some don't." Leighow said that the governor's staff has tallied the travel expenses charged by Murkowski's wife: $35,675 in 2006, $43,659 in 2005, $13,607 in 2004 and $29,608 in 2003. Associates of Murkowski said the former governor was moose hunting and could not be reached to comment. In the past, per diem claims by Alaska state officials have carried political risks. In 1988, the head of the state Commerce Department was pilloried for collecting a per diem charge of $50 while staying in his Anchorage home, according to local news accounts. The commissioner, the late Tony Smith, resigned amid a series of controversies. "It was quite the little scandal," said Tony Knowles, the Democratic governor from 1994 to 2000. "I gave a direction to all my commissioners if they were ever in their house, whether it was Juneau or elsewhere, they were not to get a per diem because, clearly, it is and it looks like a scam -- you pay yourself to live at home," he said. Knowles, whose children were school-age at the start of his first term, said that his wife sometimes accompanied him to conferences overseas but that he could "count on one hand" the number of times his children accompanied him. "And the policy was not to reimburse for family travel on commercial airlines, because there is no direct public benefit to schlepping kids around the state," he said. The rules were articulated by Mike Nizich, then director of administrative services in the governor's office, said Knowles and an aide to another former governor, Walter Hickel. Nizich is now Palin's chief of staff. He did not return a phone call seeking comment. The rules governing family travel on state-owned aircraft appear less clear. Knowles said he operated under the understanding that immediate family could accompany the governor without charge. But during the Murkowski years, that practice was questioned, and the state attorney general's office produced an opinion saying laws then in effect required reimbursement for spousal travel. Research editor Alice Crites in Washington contributed to this report. |
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| maccascruff | Sep 10 2008, 02:04 AM Post #1969 |
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Sing the Changes
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Babies raising babies doesn't seem to work very well in the people that I have seen trying to do it. I have cousins whose children could not find jobs in their small town, so mom and dad sent them off off to join the military. They didn't want their children dependent on them for the rest of their lives. The military is the only way out for kids who have no college aspirations. |
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| BlueMolly2009 | Sep 10 2008, 02:04 AM Post #1970 |
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LOLcat Freak
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Isn't Sarah Palin anti-abortion, even for rape and insest? Or am I wrong? |
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Molly Myspace My Twitter My FriendFeed My Facebook ![]() Boston Chihuahuas (I took this while at a Starbucks) | |
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| maccascruff | Sep 10 2008, 02:18 AM Post #1971 |
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Sing the Changes
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She is against abortion period, no matter what. You are right, Molly. She was for the Bridge to Nowhere before she was against the Bridge to Nowhere, so there is a flip-flop. Alaska also accepted the funds and used it for other projects. Yet she is against earmarks. I am against lipstick.
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| maccascruff | Sep 10 2008, 02:20 AM Post #1972 |
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Sing the Changes
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Can we change the poll to be Obama/Biden versus McCain/Palin? |
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| fab4fan | Sep 10 2008, 03:41 AM Post #1973 |
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Caretaker
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Food for thought: Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor. Edited by fab4fan, Sep 10 2008, 03:41 AM.
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Sep 10 2008, 04:35 AM Post #1974 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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There is a new poll on page one. Please read the choices carefully before voting!
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| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| fab4fan | Sep 10 2008, 04:45 AM Post #1975 |
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http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2008/09/10/palin/index.html This is a link to an article at Salon.com. It is 4 pages long. The author claims to be a libertarian. I would be extremely interested in liberal responses to the points in the article. |
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| Bill | Sep 10 2008, 05:07 AM Post #1976 |
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Genius!
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| Dorfliedot | Sep 10 2008, 05:28 AM Post #1977 |
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Beatlelicious
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He was organizer too. |
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| Reverend Dave | Sep 10 2008, 06:57 AM Post #1978 |
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I think abortion is wrong. I think capital punishment is wrong. I think war is wrong. I think eating animals is wrong. What candidate supports my views? I'm still one of those undecided voters. I respect Sen. McCain but don't like his angry diplomacy. I can't convince myself that Sen. Obama's the savior his supporters think he is. I'd rather see Sen. Biden as President and Obama as Vice President. The U.S. desperately needs someone with foreign policy experience in the White House right now. As Vice President, Biden's experience won't count for much. McCain will only anger foreign leaders and Obama's pretty speeches will get lost in translation. |
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With great power comes great responsibility. With great age.... What was I going to say? | |
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| Bill | Sep 10 2008, 07:58 AM Post #1979 |
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A very interesting read, although I think she was unnecessarily harsh towards McCain and goes off on a few tangents I don't really understand. With every respect to the fortitude of frontierswomen, and taking her point about their brand of feminism as opposed to the bourgeois whiny brand, I would want one of them a heartbeat away from the presidency either. Elsewhere, she speaks of lies told about Palin. I'm not aware of any lies - I can only think of one half-truth, and that's the one about her being a member of a radical separatist party. She isn't, her husband is - or was. However, she did tell them to "keep up the good work" in her capacity as governor. But Paglia cheapens her point about lies by repeating one herself. There were no technical difficulties at the convention and I don't know why that story has been put about. My guess would be to garner more sympathy vote and to talk abut how calm she is in a crisis.... even though there wasn't one. Beyond that, she makes a lot of good points. Each party has its own knee-jerk responses. Personally, I've never subscribed to the "liberal" view of abortion and everyone here knows that. What I don't understand is what it's got to do with feminism anyway. One of the most inspiring things about Obama's campaign has been its colourblindness. No-one is saying "vote for the black guy," they're saying vote for him because he's the best. If it's good enough to vote for someone just because they're not white or not male, then President Ferraro would have followed President Jesse Jackson. As it turned out, the electorate judged them not by the colour of their skin, nor by the shape of their reproductive organs, but but the content of their character - as it should be. For both Republicans an feminists to play the gender card before we even know who Sarah Palin is, I think is pretty weak. I am confident that I would feel the same way about any man with such little experience, named his kids after sports seasons and snowmobiles, had ties to secessionists, and talked about "Eye-ran's nucular program." Geez, never mind forcing immigrants to speak English, could you please just force your politicians to? And before anyone says Obama doesn't have any more experience than Palin, just remember that he has run a campaign that's rolling in cash without ever going cap-in-hand to big business while his opponents on both sides are deep in debt. Now who do you think it better placed to run the economy? I've got a question for you, John: As a conservative for Obama, what's your response to all those trying to paint him as a mad leftie? Edited by Bill, Sep 10 2008, 08:14 AM.
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| Bill | Sep 10 2008, 08:16 AM Post #1980 |
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Nine Questions Sarah Palin should answer: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/52155.html Here are some of the questions Palin should be answering, for Alaskans and the rest of the country: -- You present yourself as a Republican maverick who took on your own party's corrupt political establishment. In November's election, your party is running an indicted U.S. Senator, Ted Stevens, who is awaiting trial on charges he accepted more than $250,000 of unreported gifts from the state's most powerful lobbyist. Will you vote for his opponent? Will you urge Alaskans to help you change Washington and vote him out of office? If not, why not? -- Sen. Ted Stevens' trial is still pending; he has declined to say whether he would accept a pardon from President Bush before Bush leaves office in January. Do Alaska voters deserve an answer to that question before they cast their vote for or against Stevens in November? What is your position on a president pardoning a public official before a jury has ruled on guilt or innocence? -- Alaska Congressman Don Young appears to have won his Republican primary, even though you endorsed his opponent. Will you vote for your fellow Republican Don Young, who has spent over $1 million on legal fees without telling his constituents what sort of legal trouble he is in? -- Why have you reneged on your earlier pledge to cooperate with the Alaska Legislature's investigation into Troopergate? -- In spring of 2004, the Anchorage Daily News reported that you cited family considerations in deciding not to try for the U.S. Senate: "How could I be the team mom if I was a U.S. senator?" What was different this time as you decided to run for vice president? -- As governor of Alaska, you have not pushed for laws or regulations that put your personal views on abortion, same-sex marriage and creationism into public policy. As vice president, will you push to outlaw abortion, restrict same-sex marriage and require the teaching of creationism? -- If you were a fully qualified vice-presidential candidate from the get-go, why did you wait more than 10 days to face reporters? -- McCain spokesman Rick Davis told Fox News the media didn't show you enough "deference." How much deference do you expect to get from Vladimir Putin or Hugo Chavez? -- You have said victory is in sight in Iraq. In July 2007, when you visited Kuwait, you said, "I'm not going to judge the surge." In the March 2007 issue of Alaska Business Monthly, you were asked about the surge and were quoted saying: "I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq. . . . While I support our president, Condoleezza Rice and the administration, I want to know that we have an exit plan in place." Define "victory" in Iraq? What is the exit plan? |
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| Corvair | Sep 10 2008, 11:05 PM Post #1981 |
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Jesus was a carpenter. Al Capone was a community organizer. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 10 2008, 11:23 PM Post #1982 |
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MaccaMomma
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Jesus was a lot of things to a lot of people. To lighten it up; here's an email I got: There were 3 good arguments that Jesus was Black: 1. He called everyone brother 2. He liked Gospel 3. He didn't get a fair trial But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was Jewish: 1. He went into His Father's business 2. He lived at home until he was 33 3. He was sure his Mother was a virgin and his Mother was sure He was God But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was Italian: 1. He talked with His hands 2. He had wine with His meals 3. He used olive oil But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was a Californian : 1. He never cut His hair 2. He walked around barefoot all the time 3. He started a new religion But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was an American Indian: 1. He was at peace with nature 2. He ate a lot of fish 3. He talked about the Great Spirit But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was Irish: 1. He never got married 2. He was always telling stories 3. He loved green pastures But the most compelling evidence of all - 3 proofs that Jesus was a woman: 1. He fed a crowd at a moment's notice when there was virtually no food 2. He kept trying to get a message across to a bunch of men who just didn't get it 3. And even when He was dead, He had to get up because there was still work to do! |
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| Dorfliedot | Sep 10 2008, 11:31 PM Post #1983 |
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Beatlelicious
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Wait! Jesus and his mom knew he wasn't god. however, a savor to save his people. so, all people will be forgiving for their sins. and, live in paradise one day. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 10 2008, 11:31 PM Post #1984 |
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MaccaMomma
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I voted in the latest poll; McCain/Palin.
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 10 2008, 11:32 PM Post #1985 |
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MaccaMomma
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Dorothy...it's a light-hearted "joke."
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| Dorfliedot | Sep 10 2008, 11:33 PM Post #1986 |
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Beatlelicious
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That's cool!
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Sep 11 2008, 12:44 AM Post #1987 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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Anyone know what a community organiser does? Personally, I don't think it's something that should be mocked or devalued. I have nothing but respect for Barack for his role during those formative years of his political career. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Bill | Sep 11 2008, 12:45 AM Post #1988 |
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Don't ask W what he was doing at that age, because he can't remember.
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| fab4fan | Sep 11 2008, 12:53 AM Post #1989 |
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Caretaker
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Surely you didn't read my post as a mocking? |
| Mnisthiti mou Kurie! | |
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| Bill | Sep 11 2008, 12:56 AM Post #1990 |
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I think Andy was replying to Gary's retort.
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Sep 11 2008, 01:02 AM Post #1991 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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I was indeed - although I didn't know that Corvair was Gary.
Edited by JeffLynnesBeard, Sep 11 2008, 01:03 AM.
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| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| fab4fan | Sep 11 2008, 01:05 AM Post #1992 |
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Caretaker
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Not trying to duck the question but what specifically do you have in mind to connotate "mad"? A leftie he is and forever will the right paint the left's candidate as "mad." (William Ayers in his cabinet would scare the hell out of me.) |
| Mnisthiti mou Kurie! | |
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| Bill | Sep 11 2008, 01:10 AM Post #1993 |
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Okay, then. I actually dispute the leftie charge. As Andy says, most of us consider those kind of policies pretty centrist. So to rephrase, why is a conservative supporting a "leftie"? |
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| Bill | Sep 11 2008, 01:11 AM Post #1994 |
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I'm working from very fuzzy memory. I could be totally wrong. |
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| fab4fan | Sep 11 2008, 01:16 AM Post #1995 |
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Caretaker
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It wasn't an original anyway. Don't know which left-wing blog sent the word out but I read the same 'letter to the editor' in 3 different papers yesterday. Someone came up with a good one. As far as the assertion that there has been only one-half, half-truth, about the pit bull with lipstick:
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| Mnisthiti mou Kurie! | |
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| Bill | Sep 11 2008, 01:20 AM Post #1996 |
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Well, it's one thing to find comical smileys, it's another thing to set me straight about anything I've got wrong.
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| fab4fan | Sep 11 2008, 01:30 AM Post #1997 |
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Caretaker
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Banned books from the library, had an affair, covered-up her daughters baby as her own. That's 3 off the top of my head. Will answer your other question shortly, have to help the 3rd grader with math homework. Be afraid, very afraid.
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| Mnisthiti mou Kurie! | |
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| beatlechick | Sep 11 2008, 01:54 AM Post #1998 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 11 2008, 03:13 AM Post #1999 |
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MaccaMomma
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Indeed it's nothing to look down upon; but does it qualify as "enough experience" to be the leader of one of the greatest free nations in the world?
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 11 2008, 03:16 AM Post #2000 |
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MaccaMomma
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I like Gary's version better. Jesus was a carpenter. Al Capone was a community organizer. |
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) donation to the charity of your choice that no matter who wins, in two years' time, the federal abortion laws will not have changed one bit, nor will there be any processes in motion to make them any different to how they have been for the last 30 years.












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