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2008 U.S. Presidential Election
Topic Started: Feb 22 2007, 05:49 AM (37,445 Views)
Merry
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I wish it was as easy as just deciding you are going to get a better job and doing so. Don't forget, the economy right now is terrible, and especially here in this state where more and more people are being offered 'buy outs' by "The Big Three", and many auto-related companies are going out of business.

Right now if you even HAVE a job of any kind, you can consider yourself lucky! It isn't a matter of being choosy, you take what you can get and be thankful you can still bring in a paycheck.

Many, not just minorities, are accepting "menial", minimum wage jobs just to survive, and have to hold down two or three to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table.


:) Merry


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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
I don't begrudge the rich people their money, if they came about it the honest way, however the poor are hardworking people as well. Unfortunately in Los Angeles's skid row area the homeless aren't just from being poor but many states ship their mental patients out to Los Angeles with very little money and literally just the clothes on their back. This has been going on for several years and makes the streets harder to live on. It's great to 'give' money but giving money isn't necessarily what is needed. The working poor don't want a hand out but a hand up. You can 'give' all the money you want, great image booster for you, but that is not always the solution. What is needed is not just money, but your time as well.

Go and work the soup kitchens. There are large parks near where I used to live where regular people, not rich, would make large batches of sandwiches and soups handing them out to the people living in the park. My Church, not rich by any stretch of the imagination - just enough money to get by on, we make up packets with food, crackers, juice, water, and small soaps and shampoos that you get from hotels. We also give lots of food and clothing to the local food banks. We just won't give money. It is most appreciated by the people who come by my Church to get this. Some of them have actually started working at the Church and at some of the homes of the congregation. See, giving money to an organization is great but actually working it and getting to know that giving the money isn't the total solution is even better. For many people to be able to give $1 to a charity can be like giving $1000 in someone else's shoes.

BTW, I don't have anywhere near $5000 disposable income but I give more than $50 to a charity. I also give my time and efforts.
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Queenbee
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Yes $10.00 is just as much money to some that give $5000.00. I was justifying that the rich may purchase frivolous items but they give their $$$ and time to help those in need. I also know people who have let people with families enjoy their vacation homes when there not in use and even pay for the transportation to get there. Maybe I'm lucky to know of nice people who are generous. Like I said, I only know 1 couple who I try not to have any more to do with them than I have to. Almost all of them, try to do what they should do. They truly care for those who don't have the opportunities that we take for granted.

I believe in helping in ways that will enable help the person get a job. Purchase a car for someone who needs transportation to and from work. Pay for the insurance for a year, And when I say car, I don't mean something expensive. A few thousand dollars will get you fairly reliable transportation.
Donate clothes that they will need to wear to go to work.

Some people just need that extra something that is holding them back to get a job. We always have summer work for those who need a job. We've been hiring a few guys to work around the property who work at the local nursery. This year they are bringing their family's to come live in the US with the green car and hopefully be able to live here full time. We pay them $15.00 an hour because they earn every penny they work. Their good workers and friendly, good family men.

I never thought of making sandwiches for the people in the parks or where the homeless live. I don't even know where they are in our area. Guess I need to do some checking out.

Not having transportation is a big problem for many people who don't work. They can't get the money together to buy a car, let alone pay for the insurance. It's hard for them when there is no family back up. Nothing but a vicious circle for them. My Mother was always for the under dog. She remembers what it was to be dirt poor. They use to put lard on bread and sprinkle it with sugar.YUCK!

PEACE and love to my friends, Judy

When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace.
-Sri Chinmnoy Ghose

Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind.
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theonlyfab4fan
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
Judy I think that everyone on this board who knows you knows that you are the least ostentatious pretentious person on the planet. I have never known you to be anything but a kind hearted generous soul and I believe that you were that even before you had the good fortune of financial security. A leopard doesn`t change its spots so no one will ever convince me any differently about you. And I can see where some comments have been made about luck or good fortune would have you get your back up. I don`t begrudge the rich their hard earned luxuries either. If you can afford to spend on luxury items then by all means do so and enjoy the little bit of pleasure they bring you. I know you to be a person who enjoys nice things but never at the exspence of others. However I happen to agree with Bill that hard working people who put in 40 hours or more a week ought to be able to expect to at least be able to make ends meet and for a lot of people in the United States that doesn`t always happen. I know you care and I know you do all you can to help.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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Dorfliedot
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Beatlelicious
Oh,yes Judy is a wonderful person. I like her a lot.
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Queenbee
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Thank you Betsy for all your sweet words and Dorothy. Yes I did feel like my back was to the wall. We had a bit of financial security before an inheritance from a life time of stocks received. My husband always received stocks as a gift from the time he was a baby. He did well in the 90's as a lot of people did. But I sure as hell wouldn't call it LUCK. My husbands mother died from breast cancer when he was 11. He was an only child, same as his Mother. So when his grandmother and grandfather died he received an inheritance that naturally would have gone to his mother had she been alive. He would have given every penny back to have his Mom with him. It not like winning the lottery. It's a rotten trade off. I hate putting my life in the public but I HATE it even more when people think oh how lucky we are. There was a huge price to pay.I also loss my Mother the week before he received this. It was like we had to lose are Mothers for a inheritance. A pretty rotten trade off. So people should be cautious when they say something or think about how others receive their money.

And yes we are the same people that we were before and do more than I would ever divulge. I know I divulge more than I should but I didn't care for some of the comments on this thread. I feel because someone I once helped turned their back on me and said things that weren't true, I feel I have to defend myself, and I can be very thin skin on some issues. I don't like others to think I don't care for people less fortunate than me or look down at them. I know Andy wasn't aiming at me, but it still hurts.
We could lose it all tomorrow and I would be fine.

PEACE and love to my friends, Judy

When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace.
-Sri Chinmnoy Ghose

Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind.
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
theonlyfab4fan
Mar 3 2007, 04:23 PM
Judy I think that everyone on this board who knows you knows that you are the least ostentatious pretentious person on the planet. I have never known you to be anything but a kind hearted generous soul and I believe that you were that even before you had the good fortune of financial security. A leopard doesn`t change its spots so no one will ever convince me any differently about you. And I can see where some comments have been made about luck or good fortune would have you get your back up. I don`t begrudge the rich their hard earned luxuries either. If you can afford to spend on luxury items then by all means do so and enjoy the little bit of pleasure they bring you. I know you to be a person who enjoys nice things but never at the exspence of others. However I happen to agree with Bill that hard working people who put in 40 hours or more a week ought to be able to expect to at least be able to make ends meet and for a lot of people in the United States that doesn`t always happen. I know you care and I know you do all you can to help.

Judy, those of us who know you, know that you are an extremely generous person and you don't need to justify anything. You have been poor and in dire straits and now you are not. I am very happy for you. I have some idea of where you're coming from. You know how much I think of you and care for you and Bert. He is a great guy and you are a great human people. I also understand about why you feel the need to defend yourself here after what happened previously.

I do think that if somebody works 40 hours a week (or more), they should be able to live a comfortable existence and we all know that isn't always the case.

As for wealthy people donating generously, I'm not seeing that. The tax returns I prepared at H&R Block for people who didn't make much money showed a much more generous nature than the tax returns I am preparing now for people I consider to be quite wealthy. I did one today for a man who made over $400,000 and he told me he is kind to his fellow man, but doesn't make any charitable contributions. His kind make me sick. He lives in a million dollar house but can't help the homeless here, who have died this winter because the shelter was full.
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Dorfliedot
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Queenbee
Mar 3 2007, 07:11 PM
Thank you Betsy for all your sweet words and Dorothy. Yes I did feel like my back was to the wall. We had a bit of financial security before an inheritance from a life time of stocks received. My husband always received stocks as a gift from the time he was a baby. He did well in the 90's as a lot of people did.  But I sure as hell wouldn't call it LUCK. My husbands mother died from breast cancer when he was 11. He was an only child, same as his Mother. So when his grandmother and grandfather died he received an inheritance that naturally would have gone to his mother had she been alive. He would have given every penny back to have his Mom with him. It not like winning the lottery. It's a rotten trade off. I hate putting my life in the public but I HATE it even more when people think oh how lucky we are. There was a huge price to pay.I also loss my Mother the week before he received this. It was like we had to lose are Mothers for a inheritance.  A pretty rotten trade off. So people should be cautious when they say something or think about how others receive their money.

And yes we are the same people that we were before and do more than I would ever divulge. I know I divulge more than I should but I didn't care for some of the comments on this thread. I feel because someone I once helped turned their back on me and said things that weren't true, I feel I have to defend myself, and I can be very thin skin on some issues. I  don't like others to think I don't care for people less fortunate than me or look down at them. I know Andy wasn't aiming at me, but it still hurts.
We could lose it all tomorrow and I would be fine.

Never feel bad about who you are. or what you got. Your kindest is worth more then words. or, anything in this world. Sometimes, a simply thing can make a difference. Even gestures too. I am glad to Have got to know you on this board. I think if I was to met you in person I would just love you to pieces Judy. I hope you take that wrong.. Money or, no money doesn't make a person. What makes a person is the way they act. I like people that I partake as being nice. and, Who try not hurt others feelings. and Judy to me you seem have genuine quality about you that attracts alot friends.
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Queenbee
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Thank you Linda and Dorothy. I didn't mean to turn this into a pity thread for me but a few comment were made and I was stewing. I must of wrote over a dozen post and deleted them.
I just get so hurt and mad when comments get made. Usually I ignore them but maybe with my knee bugging me, I just wasn't in the mood to listen to it. Yes I shouldn't have to defend myself but somedays I get thin skin.

Linda, people I know are generous. Sorry to hear what you see in others who have money, who don't share. I'm sure you would know working where you do.

And Dorothy, I would love to meet you to. I would love to talk to you about our lives. You sure went through a lot. I hope your Prince comes and sweeps you off your feet and you live happily ever after. Fairy tales do come true. Look at me. :-)

PEACE and love to my friends, Judy

When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace.
-Sri Chinmnoy Ghose

Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind.
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Dorfliedot
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Queenbee
Mar 3 2007, 07:42 PM
Thank you Linda and Dorothy. I didn't mean to turn this into a  pity thread for me but a few comment were made and I was stewing. I must of wrote over a dozen post and deleted them.
I just get so hurt  and mad when comments get made. Usually I ignore them but maybe with my knee bugging me, I just wasn't in the mood to listen to it. Yes I shouldn't have to defend myself but somedays I get thin skin.

Linda, people I know are generous. Sorry to hear what you see in others who have money, who don't share. I'm sure you would know working where you do.

And Dorothy, I would love to meet you to. I would love to talk to you about our lives. You sure went through a lot. I hope your Prince comes and sweeps you off your feet and you live happily ever after. Fairy tales do come true. Look at me. :-)

I am sure they do. Thank you for wishing me the best.
As for a pity thread. I don't pity you, I admire you. ;) :) :wub:
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
Judy, you opened your beautiful home to us last summer and you had never met me except through forums and the phone. You were so hospitable to me and the others. I truly enjoyed spending time with you and Bert and your family. I just wish it had been longer. You showed me such a great time and I will never forget it.

I hope your dreams do come true, Dotty. I hope mine come true, too, and I can stop working 50 hours a week and my mind turning to mush.

The guy I was referring to in my earlier post is telling me he has no cash. We went through this in December trying to get him to make an estimated tax payment. My co-worker and I who have been working with him and make far less than $400,000, are having a hard time understanding just what he does do with his money.

I certainly have seen some people who are very generous, too, but this guy today has stuck in my head the rest of the day.
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Dorfliedot
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What is that word dajavue. I can't spell it. where you seen something before it happens. I had dream you posted that linda. Thank you! I wish same for you. :)
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
Thanks, Dotty.
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Bill
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I'd be interested to know what some of our more economically-minded friends think of this:

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/20.../answering_mark

Highlights:

Quote:
 
Why is it that in these globalization discussions among college educated professionals, it is always the integrity and motivation of those who challenge the corporate line that is suspect?


Quote:
 
Have you asked... free-traders if they want to see children in India go blind making rugs, union activists tortured and murdered in Columbia, women workers locked inside filthy factories in China? Or laid off manufacturing workers commit suicide in the US? Of course not.


Quote:
 
Of course there were people who didn’t want NAFTA under any conditions. Just as there were people who blathered about “free trade” to cover their desire for sweatshops, docile workers, the suppression of the Mexican left and their grabbing of Mexico’s banking system. It’s a measure of the pervasiveness of class in our culture that “liberals” begin a discussion about globalization with the assumption that political virtue lives on Wall Street and political vice at the AFL-CIO.

If anything, the argument for NAFTA was the less serious. It was based on promises of jobs, reduced immigration and prosperity among the Mexican poor that promoters knew were false when they made them.

It was a crappy deal for workers in all three countries. Why such contempt for people who turned out to be right?
Put a puppet on it.
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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
I wasn't exactly for NAFTA but could see that if we were to help the economies of other countries than possibly it could be a good idea. Being one of many people whose low-paying job was eliminated possibly due to NAFTA I can see that it may not have been the wisest choice. I think what should have happened with the many companies that decided to expand to other countries they should have expanded positions into those countries without cutting the jobs in their home country. This happens way to often and is not fair for the hardworking employees to get that notice that their job has been moved from the country to the Phillippines, India, Mexico, China, or whatever other countries are involved. My company was Countrywide Home Loans, a large financial firm based in Pasadena, CA but now has offices worldwide. Just imagine being an American and assuming your home loan is in this country and you call to get information about your loan and you are actually talking to somebody in India. Unfortunately that is due to happen in about 3 years. It wasn't fair of them to take the jobs and move them to the Phillippines and India but it also isn't fair that they would think the homeowner wouldn't mind their personal information being accessed in another country. I know that AOL also has done this.

Judy, I wasn't picking on you just what you said about wealthy people doesn't always ring true. I have known wealthy people on both sides of the issue. The richest person I knew really didn't care that she had money. For her it was a means but that was all. She bought me and my mom a house and didn't want to take payment that my mom made her take anyway. On the other hand I've known some that gave fabulously to charities they knew nothing about or they didn't give a swat and gave nothing at all. It's to easy to give money, it's more meaningful to give your time and efforts. Like I said, I don't begrudge the wealthy if they became that way through honest means.
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theonlyfab4fan
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
Queenbee
Mar 4 2007, 03:42 AM
Thank you Linda and Dorothy. I didn't mean to turn this into a pity thread for me but a few comment were made and I was stewing. I must of wrote over a dozen post and deleted them.
I just get so hurt and mad when comments get made. Usually I ignore them but maybe with my knee bugging me, I just wasn't in the mood to listen to it. Yes I shouldn't have to defend myself but somedays I get thin skin.

Linda, people I know are generous. Sorry to hear what you see in others who have money, who don't share. I'm sure you would know working where you do.

And Dorothy, I would love to meet you to. I would love to talk to you about our lives. You sure went through a lot. I hope your Prince comes and sweeps you off your feet and you live happily ever after. Fairy tales do come true. Look at me. :-)

If I have never properly told you that I love you, Please let me take the time to tell you now. I really do and so does my husband Doug from the very bottom of our hearts. Judy I want you to know that out love for you has not one thing to do for all the generous and loving things you have done for us, but because we love you and Bett because you are good people. WE will love you always no matter what you do or don`t do, because you are people worthy of love and respect.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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JeffLynnesBeard
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With all respect to you Judy, I know that you're a kind, generous person and that you and Bert are good people - it is unfortunate that you have chosen to take my points personally and really shouldn't have. None of my comments were aimed towards you and, just to make this clear, neither is the remainder of this post.

I am only interested in seeing the people who live in poverty and who work all the hours they can in a day but still struggle to achieve the basic necessities of life allowed to have a standard of living which every person in the world - let alone the US or the UK - should have. There is such a huge divide between the haves and have nots and, again, I have to repeat that there is something fundamentally wrong about anyone who would argue against wanting to move every man, woman and child away from poverty. I was reading in another thread here about a police officer who was working as a part-time security guard in Wal*Mart just to make ends meet. A police officer not getting the salary they need to survive? There is clearly something drastically wrong with that.

Yes, it still strikes me as perverse that people buy purses which cost several thousand dollars and other items of clothing which cost more. That really isn't somebody making 'little purchases to give them a bit of pleasure', is it? There is a limit - there must be some switch inside somebody's mind which says... "Wow - five thousand dollars, just for a dress?". Some people seem know the price of everything and the value of nothing. It disturbs me celebrity status is afforded to these rich 'socialites' such as Paris Hilton, Tara Palmer-Tompkinson, et al, purely because they spend money like it's going out of fashion and shove cocaine up their noses at their many glitzy parties. Compare this to the police officer who cannot pay all his bills and feed his family on the salary he receives for risking his life everyday, and it is not difficult to see why the actions of some people who don't respect the real value of money have the potential to anger those who do.

I wouldn't have thought that my call for a living wage for every American would have caused such a controversy - nor, sadly, met such opposition.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Queenbee
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Andy and Beatle chick, I didn't feel you were talking directly to me but I do feel ambiguous when people speak of the rich and how they pay no taxes and how great they have it, money just handed to them, etc. Believe me the rich pay. Maybe the SUPER rich can get out of it a bit but you lose a lot of deductions. The top 50% wage earners pay approx. 96% of the taxes of all taxes paid.
We even receive comments from people we know, who have no idea the guilt and responsibility that comes with it. I can't count the times people think we have a drawer of money just sitting here waiting to hand it out just because.......and think you a cheap jerk because you don't and some days I just get tired of it.

Society allows the rich to spend the way they do. We pay to go to the movies, buy the DVD, CD's and all that it takes to sponsor Hollywood. We purchase the drugs from the pharmaceutical company's who are filthy rich, the insurance company's, another filthy rich company, that you have to have. There should be a limit on what these CEO's and top executive get paid and pass that money down to the people working for them getting minimum wage.

I think all of us believe, after working 40 hours you should be able to live a respectable life. Nowadays, it takes a family to have 2 spouses to work to afford a nice home. In CA. the prices of homes are crazy.You have to have a very good paying job and parents who can help you get into a home out there. Then you have other parts of the country where housing is a lot cheaper, but so is finding a decent paying job.

And as Dorothy said, she tried to get a job and no one would hire her. How sad for society that the people who are willing to work, can't find a job. I find it hard to believe that most employers can't pay their workers at least $8-9.00 an hour.
I have a daughter who worked the corporate world with a couple years of college. She was earning a very good living by being a hard, dedicated worker. She got pregnant and had a high risk pregnancy and quit because of the stress. She now works for a Dr.'s office earning $10.75 an hour with part time hours (and has been working for him for the past 4 years). But she should be making a lot more. The Dr tells his employees he can't afford it. But yet his kids go to private school that takes an hour to get to, that Mom drives them to, a child in college who never had to work.....his father is from India, although he was born and raised here....he bought a banquet hall, which just ticked his employees because he claims he's so broke. Now this is a very sweet man, who gives me free check ups, meds that he receives from the pharmacy company's (because I can't get health insurance), charges next to nothing to patients who have money problems, but won't give his employees a decent earning because he can't afford it??? A we have hundred of millions of company owned by people who are the same way. They live the life of luxury while the employees skimp by wearing many hats because they won't hire enough people to properly staff the office.
So what is the answer???? Sorry this is soooooo long.See what happens when my knees are out of commission for a few days. HA!

Thank you Betsy, I know you and Doug love me :wub: I didn't mean to highjack this thread. Somedays having money isn't cut out to be what it's worth and this thread caught me in the wrong (or is it right) mood.
Now to check out Bill's comments. :whistle:

PEACE and love to my friends, Judy

When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace.
-Sri Chinmnoy Ghose

Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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fab4fan
Mar 3 2007, 02:10 PM
(((Andy)))
Doesn't that feel good? Admitting mistakes is not the strong suit of the liberal persuasion, how does it feel not to have the weight of perfection on your shoulders anymore?

My friend I jest! I know you can take it and when I get home from work I fully expect to see that you've written a witty remark ripping me a new arse for it. In all seriousness your previous post proves without a doubt why even though it seems the ONLY thing we have in common is our love for the Beatles I love discussing everything else with you as well.

Since I challenged you on your 'living wage' comment I have held back for quite a while now. It has allowed me to realize your 'misguidedness' :P  comes from being a benevolent and good human being. As such I would ask that you incorporate 3 other things in your definition of 'living wage': the risk taken by employers in providing jobs (no one has touched on that yet,) human greed and laziness.

I look forward after digesting your answer ;)  to getting back into this discussion.

You honestly didn't think I would 'bite', did you? :D I'd offer the theory that finding it difficult to admit that you're wrong is a human trait and not limited to people of any political persuasion. ;)

I honestly don't have any difficulty holding my hands up and saying that I've made a mistake - and posting in a political thread after a few glasses of wine was definitely one I'll try not to make again. :D

As for your last paragraph, I am all for business owners making a reasonable profit - otherwise, why be in business? Perhaps, if this theoretical 'living wage' standard was implemented then smaller businesses could be given a bit of a commercial tax break to write off the higher wages they would be paying in order that their employees have a decent life. Besides, a happier person makes a better employee, in my experience. As far as laziness and greed goes, if someone is lazy then they deserve to get fired - if you don't fulfill your contract with your employer, then they have every reason to find someone who will. Greed is the reason why a pure market economy is a bad idea - it leads to exploitation - see Bill's earlier post for details. ;)
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
I will start with saying that Judy knows that I love her and Bert. I've told her before and I will tell her again if she needs to hear it. Thanks for the lovely PM, Judy.

I think when I am talking about the rich and their designer bags and clothes, I am talking about these young Hollywood stars we hear about. They spend all this money that they never deserved to have in the first place. They spend it on clothes, expect Goodie bags at the Hollywood events (which the IRS just made taxable and they have complained greatly about) and put a lot of it up their nose. What does that say about them?

I have heard my boss explaining to people who complain about what they pay us that he is in business to make money and he has bills to pay--like rent, utilities, computers for six people and wages for five people. It's also how he makes his living, so he has to make a profit out of it or none of us will have a job. He also expects us to work at all times. One of the biggest changes for me with this job is no breaks and no music allowed. He makes sure we can't listen to music on the computers by buying monitors without speakers. I did finally get him to concede that I can listen to music on my lunch hour if I wear headphones.

Andy, all countries should have a living wage. I don't know about other countries, but many people in the US are not paid a living wage.

And what about people like me--I've been single my entire life and have to support myself on what I can make. I can't count on the earnings of a spouse. I do have my pension, but look at the cost I paid to get that. Now, with my new job, I am making what I was making when I retired. However, inflation has made this not the same as what it was back then and I can't do as much with it.
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Increasing Support for Barack Obama Among African-Americans
Wednesday, February 28, 2007

By Brit Hume

Now some fresh pickings from the Political Grapevine:

Regional Conference

Tuesday's announcement that Iraq has invited Syria, Iran and other countries to a regional conference that will be attended by the U.S. was characterized in The Washington Post as "an abrupt shift in policy" by the Bush administration.

Katie Couric on CBS described it as "a major strategy change." ABC's Charles Gibson said it was "a dramatic change in policy." The Associated Press said it was "a diplomatic turnabout."

In fact, the administration has long said it would take part in such a conference at Iraqi invitation. White House Spokesman Tony Snow, for example, said back on December 6 that if the Iraqis convened such a meeting and, "want our help and our participation, we would be happy to do so."

Indeed, the U.S. has already taken part in regional discussions that included Iran and Syria as part of what is called the International Compact on Iraq.

Unhappy Campers

Some Senate Democrats are criticizing their leaders for mismanaging efforts to block the president's troop surge in Iraq. The Capitol Hill newspaper,The Politico, quotes a top Senate Democratic aide as calling the plan by Senators Joe Biden and Carl Levin to revoke the president's war authorization "a mistake," adding, "presidential candidate Joe Biden wanted headlines and got them."

Insiders reportedly fault Biden and Levin for telegraphing their plans to Republicans before Democrats were briefed. Nebraska Democratic Senator Ben Nelson said his party's strategy could unfairly hamstring the president and military commanders. And Wisconsin Democrat Russ Feingold complained the strategy was too timid — saying a vote for a new war authorization resolution would be the same as voting for a new Iraq war.

Carbon Offsets

Yesterday we told you that Al Gore is buying what are called "carbon offsets" to compensate for high energy consumption at his Nashville mansion. He is not the only one.

The Los Angeles Times reports California Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein and Republican Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger are also buying the offsets to make up for their use of private aircraft.

The Times reports a Gulfstream Four like the one owned by Feinstein's husband releases up to 90,000 pounds of carbon dioxide on each cross-country flight — almost double what the average American produces in a full year.

The president of the environmental group Clean Air Watch says politicians should lead by example. And some people are skeptical about the effectiveness of the carbon offsets — saying things like the planting of trees and the use renewable energy may have a limited impact on carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

African-American Support

Just days after the dustup between the Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama campaigns over the Clintons' truthfulness or lack of it, a new Washington Post/ABC news poll finds support for Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama sharply increasing among African-Americans.

Obama now leads Senator Clinton 44 to 33 percent among blacks. Polls in December and January showed Clinton with a lead of 60 percent to 20 percent over Obama among blacks. Clinton still has a 36-24 lead over Obama among all of those surveyed. In early January she had a 41-17 lead on Obama.

—FOX News Channel's Martin Hill contributed to this report.
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Bill
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Brit Hume
Feb 28 2007,

Yesterday we told you that Al Gore is buying what are called "carbon offsets" to compensate for high energy consumption at his Nashville mansion. He is not the only one.

Yesterday? Going by the date, that makes is the 27th of Feb. I could have told you that six months ago! :lol:
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Bill
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As for the "rich" not having it as good as everyone thinks, that only leads me to believe that perhaps they're not as rich as they think. If someone finds they can't afford something they need, then they're not rich. If they don't have a comfortable lifestyle, then they're not rich. If they do, then what's the problem? Guilt? Oh please! Sorry, but get a real problem.

There's nothing stopping the rich or the semi-rich from being poor if they want to. It's happened to plenty of rich people inadvertently so it can't be that hard to do deliberately. If that's not an option, I would again ask what the problem really is. Sounds like a bit of adversity envy to me.

Of course, you should walk a mile in someone's shoes before you criticise them. If someone wants to give me those shoes, then bring it on! No, I'm not saying rich people should give me shoes! :P But if the shoe fits, wear it. ;)
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beatlechick
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Bill
Mar 4 2007, 03:38 PM

Of course, you should walk a mile in someone's shoes before you criticise them. If someone wants to give me those shoes, then bring it on! No, I'm not saying rich people should give me shoes! :P But if the shoe fits, wear it. ;)

I'm a size 9 1/2 American shoe size! ;)
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Reverend Dave
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This is an interesting discussion and a good example of why generalizations never work - except that one.

There are a lot of rich people who are generous and a lot of rich people who are greedy. There are a lot of poor people who are hard working and a lot of poor people who are lazy. There are a lot of rich people who are lazy and a lot of poor people who are generous. No one gets to corner the market on anything.

Lumping people who are different into groups and then labeling them with some stereotype is usually pretty easy and often makes us feel better about our own problems, but it never solves anything.
With great power comes great responsibility. With great age....
What was I going to say?
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Queenbee
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Reverend Dave
Mar 4 2007, 10:39 PM
This is an interesting discussion and a good example of why generalizations never work - except that one.

There are a lot of rich people who are generous and a lot of rich people who are greedy. There are a lot of poor people who are hard working and a lot of poor people who are lazy. There are a lot of rich people who are lazy and a lot of poor people who are generous. No one gets to corner the market on anything.

Lumping people who are different into groups and then labeling them with some stereotype is usually pretty easy and often makes us feel better about our own problems, but it never solves anything.

Thank you Reverend Dave. A very true comment you made how no one corners the market on anything. My daughter and I were discussing this Sunday afternoon and what you said, is what we were saying.

Where have you been hiding? We miss you.

PEACE and love to my friends, Judy

When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace.
-Sri Chinmnoy Ghose

Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Reverend Dave
Mar 5 2007, 03:39 AM
This is an interesting discussion and a good example of why generalizations never work - except that one.

There are a lot of rich people who are generous and a lot of rich people who are greedy. There are a lot of poor people who are hard working and a lot of poor people who are lazy. There are a lot of rich people who are lazy and a lot of poor people who are generous. No one gets to corner the market on anything.

Lumping people who are different into groups and then labeling them with some stereotype is usually pretty easy and often makes us feel better about our own problems, but it never solves anything.

I don't know that any generalizations or have actually been made on this thread nor anyone stereotyped - and if you want to point them out I'd be happy to take them on board. ;)
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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fab4fan
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JeffLynnesBeard
Mar 5 2007, 08:59 AM
Reverend Dave
Mar 5 2007, 03:39 AM
This is an interesting discussion and a good example of why generalizations never work - except that one.

There are a lot of rich people who are generous and a lot of rich people who are greedy.  There are a lot of poor people who are hard working and a lot of poor people who are lazy.  There are a lot of rich people who are lazy and a lot of poor people who are generous.  No one gets to corner the market on anything.

Lumping people who are different into groups and then labeling them with some stereotype is usually pretty easy and often makes us feel better about our own problems, but it never solves anything.

I don't know that any generalizations or have actually been made on this thread nor anyone stereotyped - and if you want to point them out I'd be happy to take them on board. ;)

People who are rich are 'lucky.' (yeah we all hit the lottery.) Your fine list of what a living wage should guarantee, yeah we all do it working 35 hours. How's that for a start?

Now for a little comic relief:
Generalizations
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Of course people who are rich are lucky. It should go without saying - even if you are rich through hard work, you're still extremely lucky compared to millions and millions of people across the world who are struggling to even survive. Most of the rich who have earned their money honestly were still lucky to have had the right idea in the right place at the right time. Luck plays a huge part of each and every life - and, while it is sometimes correct to state that people make their own luck, more often than not we're either fortunate in some aspect of our lives or we're not.

Poverty, homelessness, famine, war... you name it. There are victims of circumstance and birth who have dreadful, miserable lives and, compared to all of these people, just having food, warmth and shelter let alone luxuries and instant entertainment - we're all very lucky... and the rich especially so. That is no generalization.

The living wage is no generalization either - you asked me for examples of what a living wage should pay for and I gave you my definition... so that's a personal definition rather than a generalization. Personally, I would worry deeply about the soul of anybody who would begrudge every person a wage on which they could live a life with the basic standards that most people 'enjoy' - and the 35-hour week is the European standard. It's what my basic week is (as well as additional Sundays on top of that, making my average week somewhere in the region of 45 hours - but, hey, we all do what we need to survive), so why should I expect others to work more hours to earn their living wage?
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Queenbee
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Here's Hilary trying to blend in with the Southern people.

http://www.ifilm.com/video/2829104

How condescending she is.

PEACE and love to my friends, Judy

When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace.
-Sri Chinmnoy Ghose

Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind.
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beatlechick
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fab4fan
Mar 5 2007, 08:41 AM
JeffLynnesBeard
Mar 5 2007, 08:59 AM
Reverend Dave
Mar 5 2007, 03:39 AM
This is an interesting discussion and a good example of why generalizations never work - except that one.

There are a lot of rich people who are generous and a lot of rich people who are greedy.  There are a lot of poor people who are hard working and a lot of poor people who are lazy.  There are a lot of rich people who are lazy and a lot of poor people who are generous.  No one gets to corner the market on anything.

Lumping people who are different into groups and then labeling them with some stereotype is usually pretty easy and often makes us feel better about our own problems, but it never solves anything.

I don't know that any generalizations or have actually been made on this thread nor anyone stereotyped - and if you want to point them out I'd be happy to take them on board. ;)

People who are rich are 'lucky.' (yeah we all hit the lottery.) Your fine list of what a living wage should guarantee, yeah we all do it working 35 hours. How's that for a start?

Now for a little comic relief:
Generalizations

So John, who works 35 hours? I don't know anybody who does. I work anywhere from 40-42 hours or more a week and that is on a not so heavy a workload week. I know of others who work about 45 hrs a week but nobody works less than 40hrs. Shouldn't us working class people get a living wage compensation for keeping the company afloat or at least the dept afloat?

To some extent the rich are lucky. Like Andy said, they are lucky that they don't have to scrape by. For those that made their money the honest way, they are lucky for being able to do that by working hard and having good ideas. The ones that don't just sit on their laurels and actually do good with their money are lucky in being able to do good with their money. So if you are financially secure, count your blessings for there are those that aren't and are having trouble getting food to put on the table, etc.

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Past The Point Of No Return
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JeffLynnesBeard
Mar 2 2007, 05:00 PM
Past The Point Of No Return
Mar 2 2007, 03:32 PM
JeffLynnesBeard
Mar 2 2007, 06:59 AM


I find the assertion that defending the rights of the poor to be implicitly bigoted and racist a racist comment in itself.  Race was not mentioned before that particular statement and I certainly do not see poverty as a primarily racial issue.


I simply MUST respond to an assertion which might label me as a racist or bigot.

By the Admin no less. :rolleyes:

To clarify (for those with NO agenda), I think that many who strive so mightily to defend special benefits for minorities also subconsciously might consider them to be inherently inferior or special cases otherwise worthy of more aid than the average citizen. Do you imagine that you can reshape history and compensate for what went before ? You'll open up a hornets nest of legal entanglements. I don't think this will happen. It insults those who have overcome "history" and succeeded.

Entitlements. Who is really entitled to anything ? If you are inclined to list groups in response, I think you might be engaging in the equivalent of "white guilt" and other liberal knee-jerk exercises.

You POOR thing. So needy. So uneducated. So UNDERprivileged.

It's fantastic to help people, to educate them, to treat them as equals, as friends.

Pity and special treatment are insulting, IMO.

I don't wish to extend this debate endlessly, but I trust that diversity here means more than honoring one sided opinions. :D

Are you insinuating that I have an agenda?

I am not defending 'minorities' - I am saying that the poor should have the chance, should they work, that they should earn enough to be able to lead a decent life.

I really don't understand your point. If you are, indeed, defending the status quo because that is the way things are and the way that things always should be, then you are not a person I have much respect for.

Change is good.

PS. If I write in normal text here, I am posting as a member. If I post in blue, then I am posting as staff of this board. If you use my position on the board against me, then I will not hesitate using my position on the board against you.

I've just never seen an admin so actively expressing opinions. :)

If I say you have a high station, will you hold it against me ? :D

I sense a general "progressive" bent here. Would that be a fair assessment ?

Progressive as opposed to traditional thinking. You know, the way things have been for centuries. Proven solutions. Not always "pretty", but time tested.

Tinker with society ? Go ahead little Einsteins. I trust that you have your credentials in order. :P

Don't mind me. I'm just a cantankerous old fart. :blush:
Whilst on the Internet, question the validity of ALL friendships, information and opinion.
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Bill
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Well if you want to talk about tried and true systems, most industrialised nations have a national health care system. Is it perfect? Not at all. Is it better than the alternative? Absolutely.

Tradition is helping your fellow man. It's a tradition that goes back centuries. Turning greed into a virtue is quite a new concept and not one that I would call progress. Its value is yet to be proven.

But I'm perfectly happy to abandon the way things have been for centuries. For centuries, we had small pox. And then last century, people thought, "Wouldn't it be great to not have small pox!" And that's the reason many of us are here to even consider it.
Still, anyone who wants to turn back the clock and go live in the woods is free to do so.


And hey, we don't mind you. We like cantankerous harpies.
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maccascruff
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Queenbee
Mar 5 2007, 03:06 PM
Here's Hilary trying to blend in with the Southern people.

http://www.ifilm.com/video/2829104

How condescending she is.

I saw that clip and feel the same way. They also showed some clips of her doing the same thing over the years.

As for the 35 hour workweek. I've never had one with a full time job. My workweek now is 40 hours. A lot more than that during tax season.
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Past The Point Of No Return
Mar 6 2007, 09:25 AM
Tinker with society ? Go ahead little Einsteins. I trust that you have your credentials in order. :P

Don't mind me. I'm just a cantankerous old fart. :blush:

Now wait a second ... the Einstein jab was completely unnecessary IMO. That's about all I had to say, and I'm pretty sure that I've got the Einsteinian credentials in order -_- ... it's tinkerbell that I'm suspect of.
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Sorry I couldn't help myself ... I do realize that the previous post was quite possibly far too complicated to just "get" without some sort of ouji board, or astral projection. :lol: :D :P
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theonlyfab4fan
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
When the moon is in the 7th house and Jupiter aligns with Mars and peace shall guide the planets, and love will steer the stars!
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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Well I could have referenced the Southern Cross ... I mean, com'mon how many physicists have a constellation named after 'em (that one's also known as the Einstein Cross because it helped to prove his general theory of relativity ... there's a star in the background that's light bend round one in the foreground making the combined illumination ... well, now I'm just boring you all to tears right?

... it's a fine song too. ^_^
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Bill
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Queenbee
Mar 6 2007, 09:06 AM
Here's Hilary trying to blend in with the Southern people.

http://www.ifilm.com/video/2829104

How condescending she is.

This is what I mean about Hillary just pandering to whatever crowd she happens to be speaking to at the time. Who does she think she's kidding? Hasn't she learnt anything from George Allen?
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beatlechick
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Bill, it's all politics American-style. They do whatever and whomever they can to get elected.
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Bill
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That doesn't shock me at all - that's the rule worldwide. What bewilders me is that anyone could ever have thought such a stunt would work.
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Merry
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I'm not fond of Hillary...I don't take her as a serious contender for the presidency.

Even if she makes it down to the line (heaven forbid!), I won't be voting for her. I think her campaigning is just a waste of time and money.

I'll stick with Obama for the time being and wait and see what happens.



:) Merry


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maccascruff
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I hate to say this but Obama was doing the same thing last weekend. I saw clips of him speaking to various audiences and his speech was very different last weekend than how he usually speaks.
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Merry
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I heard the clip too...guess who was playing it, Rush Limbaugh, naturally! :lol: I tune in to his radio program sometimes for a good laugh.


Unfortunately, pandering to the masses is part of campaigning on both sides. It didn't sound quite as bad coming from Obama as it did from Hillary, though. I'd like to hope he can rise above that sort of thing in the future.



:) Merry


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Queenbee
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Andy, I can see where in your country the taxes are even worse. The tax system seems to be
40% for those who make approx. $60,000.00 or more. We complain at 33% but at least we have to make $160,000.00 approx. for a single person and you get to take your deduction off of that before your true tax level. Look at chart below.
Here's our tax table for the US.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/TF...e.cfm?Docid=474

Compared to England's and I think if it states 40,000.....that's like almost $80,000.00 here in the US. I don't know how to calculate the difference from here to there.

PEACE and love to my friends, Judy

When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace.
-Sri Chinmnoy Ghose

Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind.
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maccascruff
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I think it was as bad for Obama to change his speech as it was for Hillary to do. He went down a few notches in my mind for doing that.

As far as taxes go, I do think the UK has it much worse. Plus they have the VAT every time they make a purchase and it is far higher than our sales tax.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Queenbee
Mar 8 2007, 01:49 AM
Andy, I can see where in your country the taxes are even worse. The tax system seems to be
40% for those who make approx. $60,000.00 or more. We complain at 33% but at least we have to make $160,000.00 approx. for a single person and you get to take your deduction off of that before your true tax level. Look at chart below.
Here's our tax table for the US.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/TF...e.cfm?Docid=474

Compared to England's and I think if it states 40,000.....that's like almost $80,000.00 here in the US. I don't know how to calculate the difference from here to there.

Yes, I think that we are taxed more in this country than the US and - to be honest - I disagree with the whole concept of the "rich" paying a higher percentage of their income. I agree wholeheartedly with an initial tax-free buffer and a low rate of tax for the very low earners - it is a real incentive to get the unemployed people out to work if they are going to have the vast majority of their wages in their pocket. However, after that initial tax 'break', there should be an equal percentage of tax for all. I believe that somewhere in the region of 20-25% is a reasonable income tax.

There is a bit of a consensus that if you're 'lucky' enough to hit the "Supertax" level of 40% then you shouldn't really have a cause to complain - but £40,000 p.a. isn't exactly a fortune compared to the prices of property in the UK. Besides, equality should mean equality - everyone would receive a 'break' on the first portion of their income and then everyone should pay the normal rate of tax thereafter. I really don't see why the high earners should pay a higher proportion of their income than somebody earning a modest salary - it's just not fair, is it? I say don't ask somebody to do something that you're not prepared to do yourself.

Sales Tax is also a lot higher here - we have VAT ("Value Added Tax") of 17.5% on most products with a few exceptions (basic food items, clothes for children, etc.) and I know that, while it varies from state to state, the average Sales Tax is a lot less in the US. I honestly don't object to paying taxes, as a concept, as I believe that they are a necessary tool of a socially responsible Government - but the way they spend the taxes is something I find very difficult to accept sometimes.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Queenbee
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A 17.5% tax added to purchases, HOLY COW. We in the states would vote them out of office if they voted for something like that! OUCH!

PEACE and love to my friends, Judy

When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace.
-Sri Chinmnoy Ghose

Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind.
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beatlechick
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Queenbee
Mar 8 2007, 07:30 AM
A 17.5% tax added to purchases, HOLY COW. We in the states would vote them out of office if they voted for something like that! OUCH!

One would hope. :hmm:
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maccascruff
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And Canada has VAT, too.
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Bill
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Trivia: Who said this:

"There's no way a GST will ever be part of our policy. Never ever. It's dead. It was killed by voters at the last election."


Hint: It's the same person who introduced a GST in 2000.
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fab4fan
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I don't know what GST stands for but was it that b*stard Howard?
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Bill
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Goods & Services Tax. Or Value Added Tax by another name.
You guessed right anyway! ;)
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fab4fan
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HRC in 2008

Sorry I had to. Too funny not to.
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Queenbee
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Thanks John, that was funny.

PEACE and love to my friends, Judy

When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace.
-Sri Chinmnoy Ghose

Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind.
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beatlechick
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That was funny, I liked the part where she said she would keep bin Laden pussy whipped. :devil:
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fab4fan
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beatlechick
Mar 19 2007, 06:32 PM
That was funny, I liked the part where she said she would keep bin Laden pussy whipped. :devil:

That's what I liked best too. :o
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Nick2006
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Up the Baggies, Up the Baggies :yahoo:
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That was great, Hillary does more to Osama then Bush in 8 years. Brilliant!
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fab4fan
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Settle down Tony, its another year and a half till he equals Clinton's futility of 8 years. :lol:

(you libs, always trying to declare an end before the end. ;) )
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fab4fan
Mar 20 2007, 11:23 PM
Settle down Tony, its another year and a half till he equals Clinton's futility of 8 years. :lol:

(you libs, always trying to declare an end before the end. ;) )

I agree, they can't end it can they :P

Up The Baggies :D :D
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Bill
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fab4fan
Mar 21 2007, 10:23 AM
Settle down Tony, its another year and a half till he equals Clinton's futility of 8 years. :lol:

(you libs, always trying to declare an end before the end. ;) )

"Mission Accomplished"

QED :P

Be honest: if I had said to you five years ago that bin Laden would still be at large in 2007, what would you have said? Ye of little faith? In-f*cking-deed!

Tony beat me to making the point that even being pussy-whipped would be worse than he's ever had so far! :lol:
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beatlechick
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Tony, here's a sign that you might like taken at a vigil to mark the 4th anniversary of the invasion of Iraq. Posted Image
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mozart8mytoe
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And the rebuttal:

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Bill
Mar 20 2007, 08:24 PM
"Mission Accomplished"

When are you going to get over that already? It is not like Republicans ever hold something over someone's head forever, just ask Mary Jo Kopechne.
Nurse, I spy gypsies. Run.
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maccascruff
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I wonder what John Edwards will be telling us this morning. I don't know that I would have voted for him, but I do hope Elizabeth's breast cancer has not returned. I think if it has, he will withdraw.
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Queenbee
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(((Linda))) Your guess is right. How sad for all of them that the cancer has come back, being found in the bone, rib cage bone. Sad, sad, sad. God's Blessing for the family, especially Elizabeth.

I would think he would drop out with all the pressure of running for President, and being there for Elizabeth.

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/194942

John Edwards continues campaign

Wife's breast cancer has returned, candidate says
Mar 22, 2007 12:56 PM
associated press
CHAPEL HILL, N.C. — John Edwards said today his wife’s cancer has returned, but said he will continue his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination.
“The campaign goes on. The campaign goes on strongly,” Edwards told reporters, his wife by his side.

Edwards, 53, cancelled a Tuesday evening house party in Iowa to go with his wife to a doctor’s appointment, which his campaign described as a follow-up to a routine test she had Monday.

Elizabeth Edwards, 57, was first diagnosed with cancer in the final weeks of the 2004 campaign. The day after Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry and Edwards, his running mate, conceded the election to George W. Bush, Edwards announced that his wife had invasive ductal cancer, the most common type of breast cancer, and would undergo treatment.

His wife underwent several months of radiation and chemotherapy for the lump in her breast. Her husband’s campaign has said she had recovered from the illness.

“I don’t look sickly, I don’t feel sickly. I am as ready as any person can be for that,” she said at the news conference.

John Edwards said a biopsy of her rib had showed that the cancer had returned.

The bone is one of the most common places where breast cancer spreads, and once it does so it is not considered curable.

But how long women survive depends on how widespread the cancer is in the bone, and many can survive for years. The longer it takes for cancer to spread after the initial tumour, the better the prognosis. She was diagnosed in 2004.

Chemotherapy and radiation are standard treatments, along with use of drugs that specifically target the bones called bisphosphonates. Other treatments include hormone therapy if the cancer is responsive to estrogen.




PEACE and love to my friends, Judy

When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace.
-Sri Chinmnoy Ghose

Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind.
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BlueMolly2009
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I feel bad for what's going with John & Elizabeth Edwards. This is so sad, but I do think both are very strong people and John will stick in there unless Elizabeth tells him to bow out. I admire Elizabeth for her stregnth during this trying time.
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THE PHONIEST SCANDAL OF THE CENTURY (SO FAR)

By DICK MORRIS

Published on TheHill.com on March 20, 2007.

When will the Bush administration grow some guts? Except for its resolute — read: stubborn — position on Iraq, the White House seems incapable of standing up for itself and battling for its point of view. The Democratic assault on the administration over the dismissal of United States attorneys is the most fabricated and phony of scandals, but the Bush people offer only craven apologies, half-hearted defenses, and concessions. Instead, they should stand up to the Democrats and defend the conduct of their own Justice Department.

There is no question that the attorney general and the president can dismiss United States attorneys at any time and for any reason. We do not have civil servant U.S. attorneys but maintain the process of presidential appointment for a very good reason: We consider who prosecutes whom and for what to be a question of public policy that should reflect the president’s priorities and objectives. When a U.S. attorney chooses to go light in prosecuting voter fraud and political corruption, it is completely understandable and totally legitimate for a president and an attorney general to decide to fire him or her and appoint a replacement who will do so.

The Democratic attempt to attack Bush for exercising his presidential power to dismiss employees who serve at his pleasure smacks of nothing so much as the trumped-up grounds for the impeachment of President Andrew Johnson in 1868. Back then, radical Republicans tried to oust him for failing to obey the Tenure of Office Act, which they passed, barring him from firing members of his Cabinet (in this case, Secretary of War Edwin Stanton) without Senate approval. Soon after Johnson’s acquittal, the Supreme Court invalidated the Tenure of Office Act, in effect affirming Johnson’s position.

But instead of loudly asserting its view that voter fraud is, indeed, worthy of prosecution and that U.S. attorneys who treat such cases lightly need to go find new jobs, the Bush administration acts, for all the world, like the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar. All Republican supporters of the administration can do is to point to Bill Clinton’s replacement of U.S. attorneys when he took office. Because the president and the attorney general insist on acting guilty, the rest of the country has no difficulty in assuming that they are.

Bush, Rove, Gonzales and Co. should explain why the U.S. attorneys were dismissed by emphasizing the importance of the cases they were refusing to prosecute. By doing so, they can turn the Democratic attacks on them into demands to go easy on fraudulent voting. A good sense of public relations — and some courage — could turn this issue against the Democrats for blocking Bush’s efforts to crack down on the criminals he wanted prosecuted.

In making such a big deal over the routine exercise of a presidential prerogative to fire these prosecutors, the Democrats, led by Sens. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) and Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) may be biting off more than they can chew. Unless the administration turns and aggressively defends its decision to get rid of these particular appointees, it could be left holding the bag and defending the U.S. attorneys’ decision to avoid prosecuting voter-fraud cases.

If the administration continues to follow its run-and-hide policy, it will look terrible asserting claims of executive privilege as it seeks to shield its appointees from Senate interrogation and its documents from committee scrutiny. But if it contextualizes the issue by using the specific failings of the dismissed appointees to prosecute particular cases, it will assume the high ground and its procedural objections will be seen in a more positive light by the American people. If only the administration would show some courage.
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Edwards should drop out, family should come first.
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Merry
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Good grief, there's an ad for McCain at the bottom of this thread! :o

Anyhow, I admire Edwards and his wife for carrying on, but I will still keep an eye on Obama and see what else he has to say as the election gets closer. It's still pretty early.


:) Merry


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Bill if someone would have said that 5 and a half years after 9/11 Bin Laden would still be free I would have laughed. To take your eyes off the ball and let a mass murderer go free, unbelievable. As much as 9/11 was a nightmare what Bush has done to America is worst. The man and his administration should be impeached then tried for treason.
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Merry
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As Ms. Mozart had said, from your keyboard to God's ears, Tony!

I WISH I could believe that impeachment and criminal proceedings would start against the entire administration, but it doesn't seem to be happening. With all the protests, low poll results and congressional hearings, what good is any of it really doing? WHEN can we see justice get done? :angry:


:) Merry


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beatlechick
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BlueMolly2006
Mar 22 2007, 12:41 PM
I feel bad for what's going with John & Elizabeth Edwards. This is so sad, but I do think both are very strong people and John will stick in there unless Elizabeth tells him to bow out. I admire Elizabeth for her stregnth during this trying time.

I totally agree with you Molly. He has stated that she wants him to continue. It is entirely up to them and their family. No one else should dictate to them what to do about his campaign.
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Bill
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Quote:
 

But instead of loudly asserting its view that voter fraud is, indeed, worthy of prosecution and that U.S. attorneys who treat such cases lightly need to go find new jobs, the Bush administration acts, for all the world, like the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar. All Republican supporters of the administration can do is to point to Bill Clinton’s replacement of U.S. attorneys when he took office. Because the president and the attorney general insist on acting guilty, the rest of the country has no difficulty in assuming that they are.

Yeah! Now why might they be acting guilty? Especially if they've done nothing wrong. Makes ya wonder don't it?

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Bush, Rove, Gonzales and Co. should explain why the U.S. attorneys were dismissed by emphasizing the importance of the cases they were refusing to prosecute.

Namely?
Let's not forget the cases they were trying to prosecute. And the ones they did! (Duke Cunningham anyone?)
Let's also not forget that Fitzgerald was on the original shortlist. Now why would they want to get rid of him?

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By doing so, they can turn the Democratic attacks on them into demands to go easy on fraudulent voting.

See above. They know when to shut up.

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A good sense of public relations — and some courage — could turn this issue against the Democrats for blocking Bush’s efforts to crack down on the criminals he wanted prosecuted.

:D :lol: :D :lol:
Put a puppet on it.
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maccascruff
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beatlechick
Mar 22 2007, 04:30 PM
BlueMolly2006
Mar 22 2007, 12:41 PM
I feel bad for what's going with John & Elizabeth Edwards.  This is so sad, but I do think both are very strong people and John will stick in there unless Elizabeth tells him to bow out.  I admire Elizabeth for her stregnth during this trying time.

I totally agree with you Molly. He has stated that she wants him to continue. It is entirely up to them and their family. No one else should dictate to them what to do about his campaign.

It is up to John and Elizabeth to decide what to do. I hope she can maintain and he can stay in the campaign. I'm sure that if she gets worse, they will decide that it is best if he drops out of the campaign.

Stage 4 breast cancer is not going to be an easy battle.
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BlueMolly2009
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I know this is straying off topic a bit, but does anyone know where there is a contact address to e-mail or snail mail Elizabeth Edwards to show how we all feel about her strength? Is it wrong for me to ask this?
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Bill
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I expect John Edwards' official site would be the best place to look.
Put a puppet on it.
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mozart8mytoe
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God's monitor, Merry.

And I disagree with what Tony said, specifically:
tonyhemp
Mar 22 2007, 05:09 PM
As much as 9/11 was a nightmare what Bush has done to America is worst. The man and his administration should be impeached then tried for treason.
Nurse, I spy gypsies. Run.
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maccascruff
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Molly, go to the John Edwards website. There is a link there to send your wishes to Elizabeth and John.
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MarthamyDear
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There was an excellent piece on the Edwards this morning on Good Morning America...........their song is "I Will"!!! It was sad/sweet hearing the song being played (not by Paul), superimposed by images of them.............

It's their business to "carry on", but to be honest, if I was in their shoes, I'd be focusing on quality time with their family................Stage 4 cancer is very serious business :(
And it really doesn't matter if I'm wrong, I'm right.......Where I belong I'm right..........Where I belong.
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maccascruff
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MarthamyDear
Mar 23 2007, 06:05 AM

It's their business to "carry on", but to be honest, if I was in their shoes, I'd be focusing on quality time with their family................Stage 4 cancer is very serious business :(

I read a long article this evening about Elizabeth's condition. Other oncologists aren't painting a very rosy picture for her, I'm sad to say. They are saying that she has three, four, maybe five years to live if she is lucky. If she gets extremely lucky, she may live ten years, but she most likely will die from this.

I definitely would want quality time with my family and get away from politics.
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Bill
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But the other side of the coin is that it could be detrimental to her recovery if she gets to thinking that she has got in the way of her husband's campaign. I know that's the wrong way to look at it, but people can sometimes feel they're a burden. There's no easy answer and whatever they decided upon will be the right thing for them and no-one else's business.
Put a puppet on it.
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scottycatt
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Bill
Mar 23 2007, 07:16 PM
There's no easy answer and whatever they decided upon will be the right thing for them and no-one else's business.

That's just what I was thinking. :yes:




Why?
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That's a truly interesting contemplation Bill ... I can totally understand where you're coming from and I don't think it was something that is completely misguided or terribly controversial. People deal with these things the way they do ... it's subjective, and personal.

Although I do agree that stage IV cancer is heavy stuff indeed. -_-
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beatlechick
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Bill
Mar 23 2007, 08:16 PM
But the other side of the coin is that it could be detrimental to her recovery if she gets to thinking that she has got in the way of her husband's campaign. I know that's the wrong way to look at it, but people can sometimes feel they're a burden. There's no easy answer and whatever they decided upon will be the right thing for them and no-one else's business.

Absolutely. Feeling they are the reason for their family to not go on with their lives can also hasten the death. I heard a woman being interviewed who had stage 4 breast cancer a couple of years ago and survived it, thusfar. She credits her recovery and survival with her and her family carrying on with their normal lives. She went back to work and claims did nothing different than she did before the cancer.
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Edwards had no chance at winning before this, now if he continues he looks like an ass as well. Time for him to drop out.
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Anyone notice the banner at the bottom of the page ... trust me don't do it ... my dad's a TV repairman. He's got a killer set of tools, we can fix this.

Anybody lost? :lol:
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beatlechick
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tonyhemp
Mar 24 2007, 02:36 PM
Edwards had no chance at winning before this, now if he continues he looks like an ass as well. Time for him to drop out.

I don't think he looks like an ass. Just doing what he and his wife feel is right. Besides, it isn't our lives they are leading but theirs.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Icarus
Mar 25 2007, 12:06 AM
Anyone notice the banner at the bottom of the page ... trust me don't do it ... my dad's a TV repairman. He's got a killer set of tools, we can fix this.

Anybody lost? :lol:

You know, the advertisements on the bottom of the page are different for everyone country and worldwide. Google ads not only take the content of the discussion into consideration but also where your IP is based.

It's possible but unlikely that we'll be seeing the same ads at the same time. :)
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Bill
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By the way, advertisers pay per click. So if you don't like an ad, make sure you click it so it costs them more. You don't have to wait for the page to load completely, just give it long enough for the hit to register. B)
Put a puppet on it.
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Merry
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Here's what I see at the bottom of this thread..."Could You Be President?", which at this point in time, I probably COULD do a better job...I certainly couldn't do any worse.

http://www.u4prez.com/?gclid=CLzwzdnAkosCFR6AWAodwl6LUw


:) Merry


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Bill
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I that is just so f*cking sad!!!

If these people have got such good ideas (and some of them do) then why the hell aren't they actually running for office instead of pretending to on myspacegoestowashington.com?

It seems to me that anyone who seriously participates in this wankfest has accepted the idea that democracy is a spectator sport and has decided to waste all their ideas and vision on make believe.

Utterly tragic! :no:
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Merry
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Unfortunately Bill, it doesn't just take good intentions ro run for president in this country, it takes megabucks just to get your campaign started. None of those people have that kind of money, obviously.

The belief that 'anyone can become president' is a sham. That's why we are in the mess that we are in now. It's all about money, power and greed and who you know or are related to.


:) Merry


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BlueMolly2009
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maccascruff
Mar 23 2007, 08:38 AM
Molly, go to the John Edwards website. There is a link there to send your wishes to Elizabeth and John.

Thanks Linda. :)
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To be President of the United States, one must be nominated by either the Democratic or Republican Party. To be nominated, one must show the ability to raise funds. People have to want to give money to your campaign and pay thousands of dollars to watch you eat dinner on a stage. Obviously that eliminates many of us.

But the idea that only the most powerful can get there is misleading. In the United States, if you want to become rich and powerful you can, regardless of where you started. Of the last eight Presidents, only two (Bush and Bush) were born into wealth and priviledge. Ford was raised in a comfortably middle class family after his parents divorced. Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Reagan and Clinton all came from very modest backgrounds, and all of them created their own opportunities and success.

The problem with American politics is not that the most wealthy control everything, it is that the rest of us let them.
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fab4fan
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I've just read that the majority of this next years crop of presidential candidates DO NOT plan to release their tax returns. A couple are on the fence about it. Only Barrack Obama has released his but so far I can't find it anywhere. Since 1976 the only candidate not to release his return was Clinton in 1992 (he did release his figures in 1996 when Dole tried to make it an issue of it by releasing his preceding 30 years worth of returns.) That info is provided as background, it is not a slam at Clinton/Democrats because I'm talking about all the Republicans and all but one of the Democrats.

Does this bother anyone else?
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doris mendlovitz
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Say Why doesn' t the currant administration in office if this is the case be subjected to an IRS audit. It would be very interesting to see how the currant two head jerks fair when they have to account for their spending

love doris.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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fab4fan
May 13 2007, 07:15 PM
I've just read that the majority of this next years crop of presidential candidates DO NOT plan to release their tax returns. A couple are on the fence about it. Only Barrack Obama has released his but so far I can't find it anywhere. Since 1976 the only candidate not to release his return was Clinton in 1992 (he did release his figures in 1996 when Dole tried to make it an issue of it by releasing his preceding 30 years worth of returns.) That info is provided as background, it is not a slam at Clinton/Democrats because I'm talking about all the Republicans and all but one of the Democrats.

Does this bother anyone else?

Obviously full disclosure would be preferable for the American voters however I'm not naive enough to believe that all of these rich public figures release everything to the IRS. Go ahead, call me a cynic - I don't mind. ;)
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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maccascruff
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I remember printing off Kerry and Bush's tax returns in 04 and selected all the things I would audit if given the opportunity.

My 25 years of experience taught me that most people don't do full disclosure. Only 99% of IRS employees do because they will lose their jobs if they don't.
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LadyMacca
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<sigh> is it time to vote yet? .. i'm sick and tired of this whole bush sequenance.
It's like word vomit only worse :sick:
-Liz
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