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| 2008 U.S. Presidential Election | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 22 2007, 05:49 AM (37,428 Views) | |
| Rose | Sep 4 2008, 05:50 PM Post #1801 |
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Well, here's another clue for you all, the Walrus was Paul...
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I don't usually get 'involved' in political banter...but I watched a good portion of Palins speech. I think she tried WAY too hard and I found it nauseating. And to think that if something happened to John McCain...and she would be next in line as president of this country? Sorry...I can't do it. Pitbull with lipstick (puke) or not. |
![]() "I'm in awe of McCartney. He's about the only one that I am in awe of. He can do it all. And he's never let up... He's just so damn effortless." ~ Bob Dylan | |
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| wackadoo | Sep 4 2008, 09:53 PM Post #1802 |
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Where did you get that from what I posted???? Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm NOT voting for anyone JUST because I want a woman in office. I have watched the Democratic Convention closely and am doing the same with the Repulican Convention. I am more open minded than that. I want what is best for my country and I am not easily influenced by words but I do want to hear about actions. I will vote for the team that will do the best with the issues that face this country. |
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| Dorfliedot | Sep 4 2008, 10:05 PM Post #1803 |
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Beatlelicious
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Obama has not proved to me to be the best in office. Nor has McCain. That right! I am not into politics.... It drives me nuts. I think Obama wife should run for president. She seems to have more class. By the way Molly! Maryann is not superficial. She never has been or will be. Edited by Dorfliedot, Sep 4 2008, 10:09 PM.
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| BlueMolly2009 | Sep 4 2008, 10:10 PM Post #1804 |
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LOLcat Freak
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Maryann, I'm sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. I apologize. ![]() |
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Molly Myspace My Twitter My FriendFeed My Facebook ![]() Boston Chihuahuas (I took this while at a Starbucks) | |
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| beatlechick | Sep 4 2008, 11:02 PM Post #1805 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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John, I rarely get either taxes fully refunded. Withholding, SSI/Medicare are separate taxes. Withholding IS the income tax. The only time I ever had that fully refunded, both Fed and State (though I get more back from the state) was when I first started working. There have been times where I have had to pay extra on the Fed because not enough was withheld from my paycheck. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 4 2008, 11:04 PM Post #1806 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Molly, from prior posts that Mary Ann has done I don't think it is because of Sarah Palin that she would vote for McCain. |
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| maccascruff | Sep 5 2008, 01:46 AM Post #1807 |
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Sing the Changes
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Rose, you took the words out of my mouth. Then I go to work today and the Palin speech is all my boss and his daughter could talk to. I lied and said I didn't watch any of it, trying to head off conversation. I kept my head down and in my work, but they wouldn't let up. They thought the pitbull with the lipstick was the best line of the night. I finally pleaded illness and came home. I couldn't take it anymore. His daughter still thinks they can change my mind, but my mind was made up long before the February caucus and I will not be changing it. We do have a lot of hard work to do. |
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| maccascruff | Sep 5 2008, 01:50 AM Post #1808 |
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Sing the Changes
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Cathy, I think you know that I prepare tax returns. If your income is around $30,000, you are in the 14% federal tax bracket. That would be if that is your taxable income. Not sure what the rate is for CA. You also have FICA and Medicare withheld at 7.65%. Your income would be reduced by your standard deduction and personal exemption at a minimum. Refunds are based on what you have paid in versus what you actually owe. Sorry for getting technical here. |
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| Bill | Sep 5 2008, 03:15 AM Post #1809 |
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CORRECTION: A fact check reveals that Sarah Palin was not a member of the Alaskan Separatist movement, her husband was. http://www.slate.com/id/2199362 However, I still say it shows bad judgement to express public support and encouragement for such a movement (which she has done) as a public official while still claiming to be a patriotic American. You can't have it both ways. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 5 2008, 03:33 AM Post #1810 |
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Deleted User
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Next you will be saying that the Republicans would criticize Michelle Obama if they found out she was part of a political group that advocated Illinois seceding from the nation...
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| fab4fan | Sep 5 2008, 04:02 AM Post #1811 |
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Caretaker
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The biggest news of the night: Barack Obama finally conceded that the surge in Iraq succeeded beyond "wildest dreams." Thank you for backing up my faith in you. |
| Mnisthiti mou Kurie! | |
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| beatlechick | Sep 5 2008, 04:09 AM Post #1812 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Yeah, our minimum standard deduction is $1000. Thanks. Just pretty much confirmed that I am in that 39% that John was talking about. We do still pay Federal taxes. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 5 2008, 04:15 AM Post #1813 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Linda, be grateful that the RNC is OVER!!! After that firebrand last night it was a sssnnnnnooooorrrrrrrrreeeeeeeee tonight. I just wish that he wouldn't keep using his Vietnamese imprisonment as a major part of his campaign. I know it is a major part of his life and he should be recognized for it but, please, look ahead to the future.
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| BlueMolly2009 | Sep 5 2008, 05:10 AM Post #1814 |
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LOLcat Freak
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Tonight it seems more calmer than last night for some reason. I guess McCain put everyone to sleep with his speech. I didn't see that much of it, but from the comments I've read, that it was a snoozer.
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Molly Myspace My Twitter My FriendFeed My Facebook ![]() Boston Chihuahuas (I took this while at a Starbucks) | |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 5 2008, 05:22 AM Post #1815 |
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MaccaMomma
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Just checking in here to say hello...also to say that I watched all the main speeches of the DNC and the RNC. My vote goes proudly and wholeheartedly to the McCain/Palin ticket. It's not a sin to be a conservative. Obama is a nice person and a good speaker. However, I find McCain to be a better choice as President, due to his experience & character as a servant of this country. I also happen to agree with his ideas of "change." This is a great country and I am grateful for the privilege of being able to vote. Oh and Molly, McCain gave a great speech! |
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| beatlechick | Sep 5 2008, 05:36 AM Post #1816 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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It was a snorer. Even a lot of the pundits that were praising the little substance speech Palin gave the night before were saying it was a snorer. If it were a blockbuster movie that just came out, it would've lost money! |
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| wackadoo | Sep 5 2008, 05:59 AM Post #1817 |
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I agree with you, Heidi. The speech by McCain was heartfelt so it wasn't 'action packed.' The reason he speaks so much of his service to our country is to show just how much he learned to love and respect his country. It partly identifies him as a man and as a fighter for our liberty. He ended his speech with a load of passion and he had the crowd going wild. I trust this man to make the right changes we need in this country. I believe he picked a great choice for a vice president and the McCain/Palin ticket is exciting and just what we need to change America. |
![]() RIP Steve. I love and miss you. | |
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| wackadoo | Sep 5 2008, 06:04 AM Post #1818 |
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Thank you, Dorothy. You are a sweetheart. I think McCain's wife has a ton of class. She has done forever what celebrities like Angelina and Madonna are doing now. |
![]() RIP Steve. I love and miss you. | |
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| wackadoo | Sep 5 2008, 06:09 AM Post #1819 |
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Thanks, Molly. I would never vote for someone based on sex. I do think this country is ready for a female in office. The reason I thought Obama would have been wise to pick Hilary is because the votes proved that a lot of Democrats wanted her in office. I live in an area with a huge Hispanic population and they love her partly because of her health care plan. He would have pretty much guaranteed their vote with her on the ticket. I think McCain was wise to put a woman on his ticket partly because he could see by Hilary's popularity that this country is ready for a woman. Obama didn't listen to the people and McCain did. This, of course, is my opinion for whatever it's worth. |
![]() RIP Steve. I love and miss you. | |
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| Dorfliedot | Sep 5 2008, 06:11 AM Post #1820 |
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Beatlelicious
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Both women probley have class. However that was a joke when I mention Obama wife.
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| FamousGroupie | Sep 5 2008, 06:25 AM Post #1821 |
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Obsessive Saddo Fangirl
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Hey, even Australia's deputy Prime Minister is a woman - Julia Gillard. I have no problems with Palin being a woman. I think the US needs to break out of the old boys' club they seem to have going here. I just don't agree with Palin's morals or ethics. |
| I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me. | |
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| Bill | Sep 5 2008, 09:10 AM Post #1822 |
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The tragedy is that you even have to spell it out like that. It's also pretty tragic that Republicans are congratulating themselves over this a full 24 years after Geraldine Ferraro. Who said they were behind the times? |
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| Bill | Sep 5 2008, 09:14 AM Post #1823 |
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By that, you are suggesting that Hillary supporters are stupid enough to vote for someone just because she happens to be a woman. It's not a case of Obama not listening to the people. Hillary is as hated as she is loved. I think she'd make a good VP too but she would ultimately lose Obama more votes than she would gain him. Obama is smart enough to be a political pragmatist and not pitch his campaign squarely at the hardcore base. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Sep 5 2008, 11:46 AM Post #1824 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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From what I can see, Sarah Palin's daughter isn't that innocent...
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| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Sep 5 2008, 12:05 PM Post #1825 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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I believe that McCain was cynical, opportunistic and guilty of a short-termist knee-jerk reaction by putting Palin on the ticket, purely because Obama didn't choose Hillary as his running mate. Any Hillary supporter who goes across to McCain because of Palin knows nothing about politics and were supporting Hillary for the wrong reasons in the first place. Personally, after everything that happened during the primaries, I don't think Obama really could have chosen Hillary. I think she has been a class act since she conceeded, though. I am happy enough with McCain's pick because I think Palin will eventually - perhaps sooner than even I anticipate - become a liability to the campaign rather than an asset. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Bill | Sep 5 2008, 12:24 PM Post #1826 |
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Give McCain credit where due: Obama gave the speech of the century and it was out of the news the next day. Which proves yet again that inspiration will always be beaten by sheer whatthefuckness. |
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| maccascruff | Sep 5 2008, 12:53 PM Post #1827 |
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Sing the Changes
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Even my nutty boss said that if they had just stayed asleep...
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| maccascruff | Sep 5 2008, 12:54 PM Post #1828 |
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Sing the Changes
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This is what I think, too. Palin will explode in the face of the Repugs. I will very proudly be casting my vote for Obama/Biden. |
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| Bill | Sep 5 2008, 01:36 PM Post #1829 |
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I try not to post commentary articles, but this was too good not to. http://www.slate.com/id/2199029/ No Experience Necessary How Sarah Palin made the GOP change its mind about presidential qualifications. By Michael Kinsley Posted Sunday, Aug. 31, 2008, at 10:36 AM ET In a famous example of ideological flexibility, the American Communist Party changed its mind completely about Adolf Hitler in 1939, when he signed a deal with Stalin. Previously, they hadn't cared for him much. Suddenly, he looked pretty good. Then two years later, when Hitler ratted on the deal and invaded the Soviet Union, the Communists changed their minds again. Both times, it took only days. But now, thanks to the Internet, the same kind of conversion can take place in hours or even minutes. And although it's hard to find many Communists around these days, we happen to have just the party for the job. It seems like just yesterday that the Republican Party was complaining about Barack Obama's lack of foreign-policy "experience." As a matter of fact, as I write (on Friday, Aug. 29) it actually was just yesterday. Even now, the Republican National Committee's main anti-Obama Web site has the witty address www.notready08.com. The contrast in experience, especially foreign-policy experience, between McCain and Obama was supposed to be the central focus of McCain's campaign. But that's so five minutes ago, before Sarah Palin. Already, conservative pundits are coming up with creative explanations for McCain's choice of a vice-presidential running mate with essentially no foreign-policy experience. First prize so far goes to Michael Barone, who notes on the U.S. News & World Report blog that "Alaska is the only state with a border with Russia. And it is the only state with territory, in the Aleutian Islands, occupied by the enemy in World War II." I think we need to know what Sarah Palin has done, in her year and change as governor of Alaska, to protect the freedom of the Aleutian Islands before deciding how many foreign-policy-experience credits she deserves on their account. The official response to the question of experience emerged within hours and is only slightly more plausible: She may not have foreign policy experience, but—unlike Obama, Joe Biden, or even John McCain—she has had executive experience. Why, before her stint as governor of Alaska, population 670,000, she was mayor of a town of 9,000. Remember when the Republicans mocked Bill Clinton for being governor of a "small state"? That would be Arkansas, population 2.8 million. As it happens, 670,000 is the population of metropolitan Little Rock. The whole "experience" debate is silly. Under our system of government, there is only one job that gives you both executive and foreign-policy experience, and that's the one McCain and Obama are running for. Nevertheless, it's a hardy perennial: If your opponent is a governor, you accuse him or her of lacking foreign-policy experience. If he or she is a member of Congress, you say this person has never run anything. And if, by any chance, your opponent has done both, you say that he or she is a "professional politician." When Republicans aren't complaining about someone's lack of experience, they are calling for term limits. That's why the important point about Palin's lack of experience isn't about Palin. It's about McCain. And the question is not how his choice of Palin might complicate his ability to use the "experience" issue, or whether he will have to drop experience as an issue. It's not even about the proper role of experience as an issue. In fact, it's not about experience at all. It's about honesty. The question should be whether McCain—and all the other Republicans who have been going on for months about Obama's dangerous lack of foreign-policy experience—ever meant a word of it. And the answer is apparently not. Many conservative pundits woke up this very morning fully prepared to harp on Obama's alleged lack of experience for months more. Now they face the choice of either executing a Communist-style U-turn ("Experience? Feh! Who needs it?") or trying to keep a straight face while touting the importance of having been mayor of a town of 9,000 if you later find yourself president of a nation of 300 million. We all know that modern political campaigns choose their issues from the cafeteria line after market-testing them and then having them professionally framed. Rarely, though, are we offered such a clear and unarguable example. How could anyone truly believe that Barack Obama's background and job history are inadequate experience for a president and simultaneously believe that Sarah Palin's background and job history are perfectly adequate? It's possible to believe one or the other. But both? Simply not possible. John McCain has been—what's the word?—lying. And so have all the pundits who rushed to defend McCain's choice. This is especially damning to McCain because his case for himself (besides not being Barack Obama, a standard under which many of us might qualify) has rested on his honor and integrity. The North Vietnamese couldn't break him, and neither could the Brahmins of his own party in the Senate. He was a maverick who always told it straight. So much for that. |
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| BeatleBarb | Sep 5 2008, 02:41 PM Post #1830 |
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Great article, Bill. Is anyone else sick of the term "maverick"? |
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| Bill | Sep 5 2008, 03:24 PM Post #1831 |
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Laugh or cry department:
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| Corvair | Sep 5 2008, 06:43 PM Post #1832 |
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I agree. The more I see of Sarah Palin, the more I like her. It's very funny to see the ad hominem hysterics the liberals have gone into this past week. Palin has rattled their cage and they're not happy. |
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| wackadoo | Sep 5 2008, 08:25 PM Post #1833 |
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Yes, she has! She is Sarah Baracuda afterall!! Seriously though, I also like her and I think she has the guts to stand up and fight when she needs to. She and McCain complement each other nicely. When you hear the news media criticize Cindy McCain for the amount of money she spent on her outfit, you know they are grasping at straws to find anything to be critical worthy. It's almost funny. I think they realize McCain picked someone truly popular with the people and that she is a big force to be reckoned with. I like her so far. |
![]() RIP Steve. I love and miss you. | |
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| wackadoo | Sep 5 2008, 08:26 PM Post #1834 |
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Did you agree with Bill Clinton's morals? Just curious. |
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| BlueMolly2009 | Sep 5 2008, 08:56 PM Post #1835 |
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LOLcat Freak
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So, Maryann, you are going to vote for someone who is pro-life? This means if they get into office they have a HUGE chance in changing the rights of women as we know it by trying to overturn Roe v. Wade? That's one of the sticking points I have with McCain, because he and Sarah Palin are pro-life. I don't want them to get into office or abortion will be illegal. |
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Molly Myspace My Twitter My FriendFeed My Facebook ![]() Boston Chihuahuas (I took this while at a Starbucks) | |
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| Rose | Sep 5 2008, 09:15 PM Post #1836 |
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Well, here's another clue for you all, the Walrus was Paul...
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LAUGH!
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![]() "I'm in awe of McCartney. He's about the only one that I am in awe of. He can do it all. And he's never let up... He's just so damn effortless." ~ Bob Dylan | |
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| Rose | Sep 5 2008, 09:16 PM Post #1837 |
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Well, here's another clue for you all, the Walrus was Paul...
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![]() "I'm in awe of McCartney. He's about the only one that I am in awe of. He can do it all. And he's never let up... He's just so damn effortless." ~ Bob Dylan | |
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| retrollama | Sep 5 2008, 09:20 PM Post #1838 |
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I don't know whether to agree with Molly, or wonder what Rose is thinking...
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| Rose | Sep 5 2008, 09:26 PM Post #1839 |
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Well, here's another clue for you all, the Walrus was Paul...
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Oh dear Lisa...My gagged smiley is not intended for you!! Sometimes it's just easier for me to not say anything at all. Well, maybe not easier...but better for me.
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| retrollama | Sep 5 2008, 09:36 PM Post #1840 |
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Don't worry, I knew it wasn't intended for me. After two weeks of convention coverage, my husband George and I were discussing this last night: When did the Republican party become the voice/choice of the masses? I always assumed that the Democrats were the "people's party", and those that were more affluent aligned themselves with the Repubs. George seems to think that it flipped during the Reagan years, but I've only just noticed the change during the current administration. All I can say is that I am scared for my future after some of the things I've seen over the past two nights. Edited by retrollama, Sep 5 2008, 09:38 PM.
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| Bill | Sep 5 2008, 11:34 PM Post #1841 |
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No-one would be criticising the cost of Cindy's outfit if the McCain camp hadn't gone calling Obama an "elitist" and a "celebrity." It's not about the cost of the outfit, it's about hypocrisy. Nothing personal, but it seems that McCain's supporters are as oblivious to his contradictions and hypocrisy as he is. And if they have to try to dismiss criticism as ad hominem attacks (which they are not) then that shows they have no comeback and have to fall back on working the ref like they always do. Obama responded to lies about him with the truth. That's standing up and fighting back. Republicans have responded to the truth about Sarah Palin by being a bunch of crybabies. Typical! Joe Biden: "What do you talk about about when you have nothing to say? What do you talk about when you can’t explain the last eight years of failure?" Edited by Bill, Sep 5 2008, 11:52 PM.
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| Bill | Sep 5 2008, 11:47 PM Post #1842 |
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Next observation: A couple of McCain supporters have said that he represents the kind of change they want. My question is, change from what? Since both sides agree that change is necessary, then they must also agree that the current guy really sucks. So hands up who voted for that bozo. Won't get fooled again? |
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| retrollama | Sep 5 2008, 11:48 PM Post #1843 |
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I meant to post this link here last week, when the news of Sarah Palin as McCain's running mate broke: What is McCain Thinking? One Alaskan's Perspective (The article is too long to copy and paste it here). |
| What a long, strange trip it's been.... | |
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| Bill | Sep 5 2008, 11:57 PM Post #1844 |
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Here's the thing about troopergate: Palin absolutely right to try and have that guy fired - he's an utter creep. However, she was so convinced of her right to do so that she though due process didn't apply to her and she ended up firing the guy who told her there was a legal process to go through. How does this behaviour differ from the current administration? |
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| FamousGroupie | Sep 6 2008, 12:02 AM Post #1845 |
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| I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me. | |
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| BlueMolly2009 | Sep 6 2008, 12:15 AM Post #1846 |
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LOLcat Freak
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I just want to say that what I said in my last post was how I feel. I know I'm not going to change anyone's minds and I don't want to. I just question those who are voting for McCain/Palin because they don't like Obama if they really want a world that might not have abortions? |
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Molly Myspace My Twitter My FriendFeed My Facebook ![]() Boston Chihuahuas (I took this while at a Starbucks) | |
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| beatlechick | Sep 6 2008, 12:16 AM Post #1847 |
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Which is why I could never vote for her and anyone that has her on the ticket. If McCain was going after Hillary supporters, he chose the wrong person. She is totally opposite what Hillary stands for. TOTALLY! I still say that Obama made the wise choice. Yes, Hillary may have been popular but she is to strong a woman to be used as a second. Not all of us women supported her totally. Had Obama chose not to run, I would have supported Hillary but not as much as I do Obama. |
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| Bill | Sep 6 2008, 12:18 AM Post #1848 |
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Lisa, I think your answer might be here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE Now I know it's really easy to cherry-pick the idiots out of a crowd and I'm not suggesting for a moment that these twits are in any way representative of the general public. The point I am making here is, ALL THESE IDIOTS HAVE THE VOTE!!! Now be afraid!
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| beatlechick | Sep 6 2008, 12:21 AM Post #1849 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Made me laugh when I saw that at the convention. Grat splling (for you non-conventioneers that should read as Great spelling!)! |
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| beatlechick | Sep 6 2008, 12:30 AM Post #1850 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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UM.....no!!! Beliefs.......... Palin - Pro life/ Anti Choice Me - Pro-Choice/anti abortion for me! Palin - Hunter Me - hate hunting especially when it's on defenseless baby animals like wolves (she kills them and their moms) Palin - member of the NRA Me - HATE GUNS!!! Palin - says she's green but is for offshore drilling Me - Offshore drilling will do nothing to get us off the oil dependency - try alternate methods for getting from point a to point b. Much more greener than she is. Palin - Creative Design Me - Evolution Palin - anti-birth control for teens (not just her daughter but opposes condoms for teens) Me - pro-birth control for teens. Palin - under investigation for ethics violation Me - under the gun at work but at least I am ethical about it. Not afraid of her at all. I just don't want her to touch my right to have an abortion or much else in my life. |
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| BlueMolly2009 | Sep 6 2008, 01:03 AM Post #1851 |
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Cathy Those are the reasons (not just the abortion reason) why I won't be voting for McCain. I do have to admit, I wouldn't mind sitting and having a conversation with Sarah Palin. I'd probably like her if I knew her, because I have some friends who are like her. I just don't want her as a VP. |
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Molly Myspace My Twitter My FriendFeed My Facebook ![]() Boston Chihuahuas (I took this while at a Starbucks) | |
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| beatlechick | Sep 6 2008, 01:11 AM Post #1852 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Thank you, Molly. Just wanted to show that just because she is who she is, Republican and a woman, I can not vote for her because of her ideals. I am not afraid of her. |
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| maccascruff | Sep 6 2008, 01:33 AM Post #1853 |
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Sing the Changes
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Cathy, you took the words out of my mouth. I cannot agree with a total thing that Palin agrees with. Another day of the boss trying to rile me up. It is driving him absolutely wild that I refuse to comment. I'm loving it. It's relieving the stress level there a lot. Huffington Post has some great comments on Palin. I'm enjoying Michael Moore right now and his Bowlers for Obama. I need to join that group.
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| beatlechick | Sep 6 2008, 01:38 AM Post #1854 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Now all you people who think we are afraid of her know the real reasons why we don't want her or McCain in office. Thank you, Linda! |
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| maccascruff | Sep 6 2008, 01:49 AM Post #1855 |
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Sing the Changes
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And what is scary is that these are the reasons some people want her in office. I don't agree with her on a single issue, so how could I possible vote for her. I don't agree with Obama on every single issue, but I agree with him on a lot more issues than I do McCain/Palin. Moore just reminded us of why you don't talk about the children of the candidates--McCain said that Chelsea Clinton was the love child of Hillary and Janet Reno. How cruel was that? My boss told me that today and thought it was hilarious. |
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| retrollama | Sep 6 2008, 04:16 AM Post #1856 |
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That's what I can't figure out... and thanks, Cathy, for posting for posting Palin's take on some of the important issues. Add this one to the list: To continue funding useless abstinence-only programs in schools, instead of sex education classes. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 6 2008, 05:00 AM Post #1857 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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That's the no-condoms issue. You're welcome. Those are basically the issues I have with her. Please add on as you like. Why is it that just because we don't like a candidate, that they have riled us or we're scared of them? Can't we just disagree with their issues without being second guessed?
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| Bill | Sep 6 2008, 05:32 AM Post #1858 |
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And in the latest news, it turns out that the anti-earmark Palin managed to get $27million in earmarks for Wasilla, yet still left the town $20million in debt. Values? Experience? Honesty? Competence? If this is the kind of economic management that people want then yes, you're damn right I'm scared of her. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 6 2008, 05:37 AM Post #1859 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Well, in with that regard I would be scared of anybody. |
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| Corvair | Sep 6 2008, 03:28 PM Post #1860 |
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And thank God for that. One Hillary Clinton is enough. |
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| Bill | Sep 6 2008, 03:32 PM Post #1861 |
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Yet they're stupid enough to think she'd going to win over Hillary supporters. The mind boggles! |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 6 2008, 08:08 PM Post #1862 |
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MaccaMomma
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Bill, Cathy and Linda...I am just as for pro-conservative beliefs as you are for pro-liberal beliefs...and never shall the two ever totally see eye-to-eye. I simply Like McCain said, in the end we are all Americans (regarding those who can vote in this country) and hopefully, whatever party gets into office, they will work together for the good of this country. p.s. and yes, Molly....I am 100% pro-life and that will always help influence whom I vote for! It's not the sole reason for me to vote for or against a candidate, but it surely helps! Edited by Bag O' Nails, Sep 6 2008, 08:20 PM.
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| retrollama | Sep 6 2008, 08:18 PM Post #1863 |
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I have nothing against conservatives in general, it's just that I don't feel that they have the right to enforce their beliefs on the rest of us. That's what makes me afraid. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 6 2008, 08:22 PM Post #1864 |
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MaccaMomma
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I could say the same thing about liberals and their beliefs.
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| beatlechick | Sep 6 2008, 08:34 PM Post #1865 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Nicely put, Heidi, but with the past administrations, i.e. Reagan, Bush I, Bush II, and Nixon we have had to deal with some pretty major issues that have resonated today. If Reagan had the capability of saying AIDS much earlier we would have had a lot more funding to help reduce the impact of the disease. The CDC needed the funding that his saying this little word would have brought. Not saying that this would have irradicated the disease, not likely, but the saving of thousands of lives (both gay and straight) would have been a lot better and quicker. Unfortunately in this country having AIDS, HIV+, and ARCS (AIDS Related Complex), had a gay stigma that has not happened worldwide. If only he realized that it was not just a gay issue. Most people who contract it worldwide are not gay. Don't get me started on the Bushes. I think a good deal of us here, me included, knew that Dumbya wanted to finish the job his father started on going after Hussein. What good timing he had when 9/11 struck. Great excuse he had to start planning the attack on Iraq just hours after the first plane struck. Unfortunately, as we all know, Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9/11. Bin Laden and his group of merry men did. Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein hated each other. Saddam is dead, where is Bin Laden? Nixon got caught doing what a lot of Presidents have done before and since, spying on others and lying. Unfortunately so many other people were implicated on his scheme to get re-elected. He may have started our ties with China, well actually Kissinger did, and he may have ended the war in Vietnam but his Watergate scandal hounded him to his dying day. Voting conservative may be great for you but for me, there has been left to much to lose. Until anyone can prove to me that a conservative (Republican, Democrat, or Indepents) truly has their eye on social issues that will help make our lives better for our future heirs, than I will remain as MOR liberal that I am. Corvair, I think if Hillary did not have the name Clinton as her last name and supported the war in Iraq until 2006, she would make a good President. Edited by beatlechick, Sep 6 2008, 08:36 PM.
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| BlueMolly2009 | Sep 6 2008, 08:40 PM Post #1866 |
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LOLcat Freak
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Can't we all just get along. I personally don't like either party pushing their beliefs on me. I don't like people trying to push me to think their side is right and the other side isn't. Pushy politicians from either side frustrate me, and pushy people who are on either side bug me. I'll vote for who I like, not for who pushes me into. I'm not stupid. This is why I'm not into politics, because everyone thinks their side is right and the other side isn't. I think both sides CAN be right if they just sat down and talked, WITHOUT the name calling and the particanship that is typical politics. One of my friends agrees with me and she said she might write in Bugs Bunny, because she's not happy with either Obama or McCain. Okay, I'm done rambling. Oh and Heidi, I respect your beliefs. I wish more people would do that same thing, but sadly, that's not the case. People want to think they're right and everyone else is wrong. That's just sad.
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Molly Myspace My Twitter My FriendFeed My Facebook ![]() Boston Chihuahuas (I took this while at a Starbucks) | |
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| Rose | Sep 6 2008, 11:14 PM Post #1867 |
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Well, here's another clue for you all, the Walrus was Paul...
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For some bizarre reason, I am smiling....
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| Deleted User | Sep 7 2008, 12:01 AM Post #1868 |
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Deleted User
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I'm running for President apparently. Lapis Lee For President |
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| beatlechick | Sep 7 2008, 12:21 AM Post #1869 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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And that reason is...........please pray tell just what you are smiling at?!?
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| Bill | Sep 7 2008, 01:16 AM Post #1870 |
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Bashing is in the eye of the beholder. Let's be honest here, you've reposted some pretty vicious lies about Obama so it's a bit rich to talk about bashing when we post FACTS about Sarah Palin and her party. Everyone is entitled totheir own opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts. And an opinion is only as good as the facts that underpin it. And that's what it gets down to. Everything I have said about her and her party is factually defensible. If that gets old, it's because the Republican ideology has gotten old. So please don't talk about "hateful" remarks when we have responded to slander and lies with facts. No disrespect, but this is pretty typical of Republican tactics. They spread a whole lot of lies, half-truths and misrepresentations about their opponents and then as soon as people start telling the truth about their side, it's, "Oh, you're being a big meanie!!" Well, if it's "bashing" to tell the truth about people, I'm going to keep doing it. If I'm wrong about anything, you can set me straight (if I don't do it first - see above about the AIP )You can't have it both ways. If you can't take it, then don't dish it out. If you must dish it out (and I'd really prefer you did ) then stick to facts and not rumour. I've read many rumours about Palin, but I'm sticking to what I know to be true. And enough with the "liberal" crap! I believe in not spending more than you earn. How is that not conservative? I'm as pro-life as you. Edited by Bill, Sep 7 2008, 01:40 AM.
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| maccascruff | Sep 7 2008, 01:44 AM Post #1871 |
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Sing the Changes
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http://www.usnews.com/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2008/09/04/cindy-mccains-300000-outfit.html ST. PAUL—Remember Pat Nixon's "respectable Republican cloth coat?" It's come a long way, baby. To wit: According to Vanity Fair, Laura Bush's outfit cost between $3,400 and $4,300. But of course that's chump-change compared to the roughly $300,000 that Cindy McCain's cost (the biggest line-item being $280,000 for three-karat diamond earrings). For those of you keeping track at home, Cindy McCain's outfit could pay for a four bedroom, three bath, 3,400 square feet house in Wasilla. |
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| maccascruff | Sep 7 2008, 01:46 AM Post #1872 |
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Sing the Changes
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ABOUT SARAH PALIN from a neighbor in Wasilla I am a resident of Wasilla, Alaska. I have known Sarah since 1992. Everyone here knows Sarah, so it is nothing special to say we are on a first-name basis. Our children have attended the same schools. Her father was my child's favorite substitute teacher. I also am on a first name basis with her parents and mother-in-law. I attended more City Council meetings during her administration than about 99% of the residents of the city. She is enormously popular; in every way she’s like the most popular girl in middle school. Even men who think she is a poor choice and won't vote for her can't quit smiling when talking about her because she is a "babe". It is astonishing and almost scary how well she can keep a secret. She kept her most recent pregnancy a secret from her children and parents for seven months. She is "pro-life". She recently gave birth to a Down's syndrome baby. There is no cover-up involved, here; Trig is her baby. She is energetic and hardworking. She regularly worked out at the gym. She is savvy. She doesn't take positions; she just "puts things out there" and if they prove to be popular, then she takes credit. Her husband works a union job on the North Slope for BP and is a champion snowmobile racer. Todd Palin’s kind of job is highly sought-after because of the schedule and high pay. He arranges his work schedule so he can fish for salmon in Bristol Bay for a month or so in summer, but by no stretch of the imagination is fishing their major source of income. Nor has her life-style ever been anything like that of native Alaskans. Sarah and her whole family are avid hunters. She's smart. Her experience is as mayor of a city with a population of about 5,000 (at the time), and less than 2 years as governor of a state with about 670,000 residents. During her mayoral administration most of the actual work of running this small city was turned over to an administrator. She had been pushed to hire this administrator by party power-brokers after she had gotten herself into some trouble over precipitous firings which had given rise to a recall campaign. Sarah campaigned in Wasilla as a “fiscal conservative”. During her 6 years as Mayor, she increased general government expenditures by over 33%. During those same 6 years the amount of taxes collected by the City increased by 38%. This was during a period of low inflation (1996-2002). She reduced progressive property taxes and increased a regressive sales tax which taxed even food. The tax cuts that she promoted benefited large corporate property owners way more than they benefited residents. The huge increases in tax revenues during her mayoral administration weren’t enough to fund everything on her wish list though, borrowed money was needed, too. She inherited a city with zero debt, but left it with indebtedness of over $22 million. What did Mayor Palin encourage the voters to borrow money for? Was it the infrastructure that she said she supported? The sewage treatment plant that the city lacked? or a new library? No. $1m for a park. $15m-plus for construction of a multi-use sports complex which she rushed through to build on a piece of property that the City didn’t even have clear title to, that was still in litigation 7 yrs later--to the delight of the lawyers involved! The sports complex itself is a nice addition to the community but a huge money pit, not the profit-generator she claimed it would be. She also supported bonds for $5.5m for road projects that could have been done in 5-7 yrs without any borrowing. While Mayor, City Hall was extensively remodeled and her office redecorated more than once. These are small numbers, but Wasilla is a very small city. As an oil producer, the high price of oil has created a budget surplus in Alaska. Rather than invest this surplus in technology that will make us energy independent and increase efficiency, as Governor she proposed distribution of this surplus to every individual in the state. In this time of record state revenues and budget surpluses, she recommended that the state borrow/bond for road projects, even while she proposed distribution of surplus state revenues: spend today's surplus, borrow for needs. She’s not very tolerant of divergent opinions or open to outside ideas or compromise. As Mayor, she fought ideas that weren’t generated by her or her staff. Ideas weren’t evaluated on their merits, but on the basis of who proposed them. While Sarah was Mayor of Wasilla she tried to fire our highly respected City Librarian because the Librarian refused to consider removing from the library some books that Sarah wanted removed. City residents rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin's attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew her termination letter. People who fought her attempt to oust the Librarian are on her enemies list to this day. Sarah complained about the “old boy’s club” when she first ran for Mayor, so what did she bring Wasilla? A new set of "old boys". Palin fired most of the experienced staff she inherited. At the City and as Governor she hired or elevated new, inexperienced, obscure people, creating a staff totally dependent on her for their jobs and eternally grateful and fiercely loyal--loyal to the point of abusing their power to further her personal agenda, as she has acknowledged happened in the case of pressuring the State’s top cop (see below). As Mayor, Sarah fired Wasilla’s Police Chief because he “intimidated” her, she told the press. As Governor, her recent firing of Alaska's top cop has the ring of familiarity about it. He served at her pleasure and she had every legal right to fire him, but it's pretty clear that an important factor in her decision to fire him was because he wouldn't fire her sister's ex-husband, a State Trooper. Under investigation for abuse of power, she has had to admit that more than 2 dozen contacts were made between her staff and family to the person that she later fired, pressuring him to fire her ex-brother-in-law. She tried to replace the man she fired with a man who she knew had been reprimanded for sexual harassment; when this caused a public furor, she withdrew her support. She has bitten the hand of every person who extended theirs to her in help. The City Council person who personally escorted her around town introducing her to voters when she first ran for Wasilla City Council became one of her first targets when she was later elected Mayor. She abruptly fired her loyal City Administrator; even people who didn’t like the guy were stunned by this ruthlessness. Fear of retribution has kept all of these people from saying anything publicly about her. When then-Governor Murkowski was handing out political plums, Sarah got the best, Chair of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission: one of the few jobs not in Juneau and one of the best paid. She had no background in oil & gas issues. Within months of scoring this great job which paid $122,400/yr, she was complaining in the press about the high salary. I was told that she hated that job: the commute, the structured hours, the work. Sarah became aware that a member of this Commission (who was also the State Chair of the Republican Party) engaged in unethical behavior on the job. In a gutsy move which some undoubtedly cautioned her could be political suicide, Sarah solved all her problems in one fell swoop: got out of the job she hated and garnered gobs of media attention as the patron saint of ethics and as a gutsy fighter against the “old boys’ club” when she dramatically quit, exposing this man’s ethics violations (for which he was fined). As Mayor, she had her hand stuck out as far as anyone for pork from Senator Ted Stevens. Lately, she has castigated his pork-barrel politics and publicly humiliated him. She only opposed the “bridge to nowhere” after it became clear that it would be unwise not to. As Governor, she gave the Legislature no direction and budget guidelines, then made a big grandstand display of line-item vetoing projects, calling them pork. Public outcry and further legislative action restored most of these projects--which had been vetoed simply because she was not aware of their importance--but with the unobservant she had gained a reputation as “anti-pork”. She is solidly Republican: no political maverick. The State party leaders hate her because she has bit them in the back and humiliated them. Other members of the party object to her self-description as a fiscal conservative. Around Wasilla there are people who went to high school with Sarah. They call her “Sarah Barracuda” because of her unbridled ambition and predatory ruthlessness. Before she became so powerful, very ugly stories circulated around town about shenanigans she pulled to be made point guard on the high school basketball team. When Sarah's mother-in-law, a highly respected member of the community and experienced manager, ran for Mayor, Sarah refused to endorse her. As Governor, she stepped outside of the box and put together of package of legislation known as “AGIA” that forced the oil companies to march to the beat of her drum. Like most Alaskans, she favors drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. She has questioned if the loss of sea ice is linked to global warming. She campaigned “as a private citizen” against a state initiaitive that would have either a) protected salmon streams from pollution from mines, or b) tied up in the courts all mining in the state (depending on who you listen to). She has pushed the State’s lawsuit against the Dept. of the Interior’s decision to list polar bears as threatened species. McCain is the oldest person to ever run for President; Sarah will be a heartbeat away from being President. There has to be literally millions of Americans who are more knowledgeable and experienced than she. However, there’s a lot of people who have underestimated her and are regretting it. CLAIM VS FACT •“Hockey mom”: true for a few years •“PTA mom”: true years ago when her first-born was in elementary school, not since •“NRA supporter”: absolutely true •social conservative: mixed. Opposes gay marriage, BUT vetoed a bill that would have denied benefits to employees in same-sex relationships (said she did this because it was unconsitutional). •pro-creationism: mixed. Supports it, BUT did nothing as Governor to promote it. •“Pro-life”: mixed. Knowingly gave birth to a Down’s syndrome baby BUT declined to call a special legislative session on some pro-life legislation •“Experienced”: Some high schools have more students than Wasilla has residents. Many cities have more residents than the state of Alaska. No legislative experience other than City Council. Little hands-on supervisory or managerial experience; needed help of a city administrator to run town of about 5,000. •political maverick: not at all •gutsy: absolutely! •open & transparent: ??? Good at keeping secrets. Not good at explaining actions. •has a developed philosophy of public policy: no •”a Greenie”: no. Turned Wasilla into a wasteland of big box stores and disconnected parking lots. Is pro-drilling off-shore and in ANWR. •fiscal conservative: not by my definition! •pro-infrastructure: No. Promoted a sports complex and park in a city without a sewage treatment plant or storm drainage system. Built streets to early 20th century standards. •pro-tax relief: Lowered taxes for businesses, increased tax burden on residents •pro-small government: No. Oversaw greatest expansion of city government in Wasilla’s history. •pro-labor/pro-union. No. Just because her husband works union doesn’t make her pro-labor. I have seen nothing to support any claim that she is pro-labor/pro-union. WHY AM I WRITING THIS? First, I have long believed in the importance of being an informed voter. I am a voter registrar. For 10 years I put on student voting programs in the schools. If you google my name (Anne Kilkenny + Alaska), you will find references to my participation in local government, education, and PTA/parent organizations. Secondly, I've always operated in the belief that "Bad things happen when good people stay silent". Few people know as much as I do because few have gone to as many City Council meetings. Third, I am just a housewife. I don't have a job she can bump me out of. I don't belong to any organization that she can hurt. But, I am no fool; she is immensely popular here, and it is likely that this will cost me somehow in the future: that’s life. Fourth, she has hated me since back in 1996, when I was one of the 100 or so people who rallied to support the City Librarian against Sarah's attempt at censorship. Fifth, I looked around and realized that everybody else was afraid to say anything because they were somehow vulnerable. CAVEATS I am not a statistician. I developed the numbers for the increase in spending & taxation 2 years ago (when Palin was running for Governor) from information supplied to me by the Finance Director of the City of Wasilla, and I can't recall exactly what I adjusted for: did I adjust for inflation? for population increases? Right now, it is impossible for a private person to get any info out of City Hall--they are swamped. So I can't verify my numbers. You may have noticed that there are various numbers circulating for the population of Wasilla, ranging from my "about 5,000", up to 9,000. The day Palin’s selection was announced a city official told me that the current population is about 7,000. The official 2000 census count was 5,460. I have used about 5,000 because Palin was Mayor from 1996 to 2002, and the city was growing rapidly in the mid-90’s. Anne Kilkenny August 31, 2008 |
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| maccascruff | Sep 7 2008, 01:50 AM Post #1873 |
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Sing the Changes
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This is my favorite written by Gloria Steinem, a woman I have much admired since the 70's--and Phyllis Shafaly used to scare me to death. We had our own version of her in Boulder and a group of fellow students and I interviewed her back in the 70's Palin: wrong woman, wrong message Sarah Palin shares nothing but a chromosome with Hillary Clinton. She is Phyllis Schlafly, only younger. By Gloria Steinem September 4, 2008 Here's the good news: Women have become so politically powerful that even the anti-feminist right wing -- the folks with a headlock on the Republican Party -- are trying to appease the gender gap with a first-ever female vice president. We owe this to women -- and to many men too -- who have picketed, gone on hunger strikes or confronted violence at the polls so women can vote. We owe it to Shirley Chisholm, who first took the "white-male-only" sign off the White House, and to Hillary Rodham Clinton, who hung in there through ridicule and misogyny to win 18 million votes. But here is even better news: It won't work. This isn't the first time a boss has picked an unqualified woman just because she agrees with him and opposes everything most other women want and need. Feminism has never been about getting a job for one woman. It's about making life more fair for women everywhere. It's not about a piece of the existing pie; there are too many of us for that. It's about baking a new pie. Selecting Sarah Palin, who was touted all summer by Rush Limbaugh, is no way to attract most women, including die-hard Clinton supporters. Palin shares nothing but a chromosome with Clinton. Her down-home, divisive and deceptive speech did nothing to cosmeticize a Republican convention that has more than twice as many male delegates as female, a presidential candidate who is owned and operated by the right wing and a platform that opposes pretty much everything Clinton's candidacy stood for -- and that Barack Obama's still does. To vote in protest for McCain/Palin would be like saying, "Somebody stole my shoes, so I'll amputate my legs." This is not to beat up on Palin. I defend her right to be wrong, even on issues that matter most to me. I regret that people say she can't do the job because she has children in need of care, especially if they wouldn't say the same about a father. I get no pleasure from imagining her in the spotlight on national and foreign policy issues about which she has zero background, with one month to learn to compete with Sen. Joe Biden's 37 years' experience. Palin has been honest about what she doesn't know. When asked last month about the vice presidency, she said, "I still can't answer that question until someone answers for me: What is it exactly that the VP does every day?" When asked about Iraq, she said, "I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq." She was elected governor largely because the incumbent was unpopular, and she's won over Alaskans mostly by using unprecedented oil wealth to give a $1,200 rebate to every resident. Now she is being praised by McCain's campaign as a tax cutter, despite the fact that Alaska has no state income or sales tax. Perhaps McCain has opposed affirmative action for so long that he doesn't know it's about inviting more people to meet standards, not lowering them. Or perhaps McCain is following the Bush administration habit, as in the Justice Department, of putting a job candidate's views on "God, guns and gays" ahead of competence. The difference is that McCain is filling a job one 72-year-old heartbeat away from the presidency. So let's be clear: The culprit is John McCain. He may have chosen Palin out of change-envy, or a belief that women can't tell the difference between form and content, but the main motive was to please right-wing ideologues; the same ones who nixed anyone who is now or ever has been a supporter of reproductive freedom. If that were not the case, McCain could have chosen a woman who knows what a vice president does and who has thought about Iraq; someone like Texas Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison or Sen. Olympia Snowe of Maine. McCain could have taken a baby step away from right-wing patriarchs who determine his actions, right down to opposing the Violence Against Women Act. Palin's value to those patriarchs is clear: She opposes just about every issue that women support by a majority or plurality. She believes that creationism should be taught in public schools but disbelieves global warming; she opposes gun control but supports government control of women's wombs; she opposes stem cell research but approves "abstinence-only" programs, which increase unwanted births, sexually transmitted diseases and abortions; she tried to use taxpayers' millions for a state program to shoot wolves from the air but didn't spend enough money to fix a state school system with the lowest high-school graduation rate in the nation; she runs with a candidate who opposes the Fair Pay Act but supports $500 million in subsidies for a natural gas pipeline across Alaska; she supports drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Reserve, though even McCain has opted for the lesser evil of offshore drilling. She is Phyllis Schlafly, only younger. I don't doubt her sincerity. As a lifetime member of the National Rifle Assn., she doesn't just support killing animals from helicopters, she does it herself. She doesn't just talk about increasing the use of fossil fuels but puts a coal-burning power plant in her own small town. She doesn't just echo McCain's pledge to criminalize abortion by overturning Roe vs. Wade, she says that if one of her daughters were impregnated by rape or incest, she should bear the child. She not only opposes reproductive freedom as a human right but implies that it dictates abortion, without saying that it also protects the right to have a child. So far, the major new McCain supporter that Palin has attracted is James Dobson of Focus on the Family. Of course, for Dobson, "women are merely waiting for their husbands to assume leadership," so he may be voting for Palin's husband. Being a hope-a-holic, however, I can see two long-term bipartisan gains from this contest. Republicans may learn they can't appeal to right-wing patriarchs and most women at the same time. A loss in November could cause the centrist majority of Republicans to take back their party, which was the first to support the Equal Rights Amendment and should be the last to want to invite government into the wombs of women. And American women, who suffer more because of having two full-time jobs than from any other single injustice, finally have support on a national stage from male leaders who know that women can't be equal outside the home until men are equal in it. Barack Obama and Joe Biden are campaigning on their belief that men should be, can be and want to be at home for their children. This could be huge. Gloria Steinem is an author, feminist organizer and co-founder of the Women's Media Center. She supported Hillary Clinton and is now supporting Barack Obama. |
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| maccascruff | Sep 7 2008, 01:52 AM Post #1874 |
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Sing the Changes
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I will also say that everyday that I spend at work and have to listen to the taunts of my employers only serves to reinforce my views that Obama is the right man for the job. Every time Rush, his hero, makes a negative comment about Obama, I get taunted. It is driving my boss crazy that I will no longer answer his taunts. |
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| BeatleBarb | Sep 7 2008, 02:14 AM Post #1875 |
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Linda - I've also always admired Gloria Steinem and this was an excellent piece by her. Thanks for posting. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Sep 7 2008, 04:16 AM Post #1876 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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Does anybody here actually think that Bush, Cheney and the Republicans have done a good job over the last eight years? Personally, I believe they have been a catastrophe for the US and, in turn, a catastrophe for the world. In terms of foreign policy, the Republicans have been a disaster. In terms of the economy, the Republicans have been a disaster. In terms of managing national crisis, the Republicans have been a disaster. In terms of helping Americans out of poverty, the Republicans have been a disaster. If McCain/Palin are elected, very little will change. You will see a continuation of the same policies and the same world viewpoint which has seen America embroiled in the mess it is currently knee deep in. It actually amazes me that Americans, as a nation, take a politician with the views Sarah Palin holds seriously. I don't think the citizens, collectively, of any European country would consider her electable, given her views on teaching creationism, her anti-contraception, pro-abstinence sex education views, her terrible track record on environmentalism, her fur-wearing, pro-gun, pro-hunting opinions and her questionable misuse of power. It comes down to this - do Americans really want a 19th Century politician for a 21st Century America? Evidently the 19th Century Americans do, but they are in a small minority, thankfully. A forward-looking America needs a forward-thinking President and VP and, in McCain and Palin, you have two people firmly stuck in a timewarp. It bewilders me that people thought the 'rottweiler with lipstick' remark was a good one. Since when do rational, intelligent people want arrogant, nasty-pieces-of-work as their leaders? Actually, I don't think that rational, intelligent people do want people like Sarah Palin as their leaders. It's that kind of irrationality that causes low-income people to vote for the Republicans who only ever look after the interests of the rich. If they had chosen Palin because she is the best person for the job (which is doubtful because she appeared on tape a month or so earlier stating that she didn't even know what the vice-President did) then I could take her a little more seriously but the only reason Palin is on the ticket is because of her sex... and here was me thinking that reverse discrimination was something that Republicans loathed! It's interesting that so many Republicans are so evidently disillusioned and demotivated with McCain's candidacy that Palin has become such big news and, really, if a person of Palin's views and calibre is all they have to get excited about, surely the election is beyond the grip of the party of rich, white hate this time round. I can only hope. If the rest of the world could vote in America's elections then the word landslide wouldn't even begin to describe the victory Obama would enjoy. Unfortunately, that isn't the case and it is up to Americans to do the right thing and give us what the majority of the world longs for - a less aggressive, more caring America - in other words: Barack Obama for President. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| BlueMolly2009 | Sep 7 2008, 04:19 AM Post #1877 |
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LOLcat Freak
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Are you guys saying Conservatives are stupid? Because if you are, I'm ashamed to even think of having Liberal views. *sigh* |
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Molly Myspace My Twitter My FriendFeed My Facebook ![]() Boston Chihuahuas (I took this while at a Starbucks) | |
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| Bill | Sep 7 2008, 04:22 AM Post #1878 |
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Try reading it again and thinking it over Molly. But if it helps, ask yourself whether it's stupid to consistently vote against your own interests. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Sep 7 2008, 04:26 AM Post #1879 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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What liberal views do you actually have, Molly? From everything you have posted so far, you seem to understand very little about politics or why this election means so much to people - what's more, you appear to annoyingly merely surmise members' posts into some ridiculous schoolyard soundbite. If you have something interesting and relevant to say then, by all means, bring it on, but otherwise I wish you'd think before you post for a change. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Bill | Sep 7 2008, 04:28 AM Post #1880 |
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Here's my question for people thinking of voting for McCain/Palin: Has it ever occurred to you that they might just be trying to push your religious-right buttons to trick you into voting for four more years of starting wars they don't know how to finish, economic mismanagement and dilution of the constitution? If you have thought of that and dismissed the idea, then why? If you had never considered it, then why not? It's an honest question. I look forward to some honest answers. Barack Obama laid out his vision clearly, concisely and passionately. The Republicans just gave a predictably mantra of "Jesus, guns, babies, war, tax cuts!" Yet, in a classic Pavlovian reaction, that seems to be enough to make some people think, "I'll vote for them!" Am I scared? Yes! Edited by Bill, Sep 7 2008, 05:18 AM.
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Sep 7 2008, 04:49 AM Post #1881 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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This post seems like an age ago now, but I have been acutely aware that I wanted to respond to it but haven't had a chance until now, owing to work and family commitments. Firstly, thank you for what you have said. While I cannot always say that I respect peoples' opinions, I always respect people's right to have and express their opinion. I think that's an honest assessment of myself when it comes to politics. In answer to your question, I get most of my information on American politics from a number of sources and these are in no particular order; The Independent (UK Newspaper) The Evening Standard (UK London Newspaper) BBC News Channel 4 News Newsnight (BBC2, weekdays) The Daily Show The Colbert Report ...as well as chatting about current affairs and learning things online from a variety of sources. To be quite honest, I don't think that the USA has a news channel or paper which could be seriously described as the 'extreme left'. America has such an almost comedy aversion to communism that no mainstream news source even approaches socialism. As generally conservative as the United Kingdom seems to be to me, a citizen of the UK, I believe that the policies of our Conservative party probably have more common ground with the policies of the Democrats in the US and the policies of the Republicans are a little too far to the right for most UK Conservatives to feel comfortable with. In short, I think the things that many US conservatives consider 'liberal' (such as teaching evolution, gun control and anti-capital punishment), the British people merely consider as 'normal'. That gives you the starting point for the majority of our media in the UK, although if you want right-wing newspapers, you don't have to look far. Real news is always unbiased, but the interpretation of the news and editorial commentary often aren't, which is why the BBC and Channel 4 are generally consistently excellent and responsible broadcasters when it comes to reporting the news. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Monkey Chow | Sep 7 2008, 06:37 AM Post #1882 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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Politically speaking, I happen to be a fiscally conservative with libertarian views. I believe in personal responsibility, little government intervention, low taxes, creating an environment in which businesses are allowed to operate and letting market forces determine outcomes, and allowing people informed personal freedom and liberty to choose how to live their lives. Unfortunately for the world, the libertarian philosophy require thought and education on the part of citizens. First, I must say that I am amazed by the hatred filled bile spewed by people about this election. Secondly, although I have disagreed with many opinions and policies of the Bush administration, the Republican Party is the most closely aligned political party available with my core beliefs. Third, the Vice President doesn't do much and never has. Read the Constitution. From what I can see, Obama and the liberals have no business sense whatsoever. If you vote for Obama, you are going to get higher taxes. I'm hearing he supports over 50% in corporate taxes. The US already has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. The US economy thrives on small business. If you tax their income at this level, you will see an excelerated departure of businesses from the US. You want to know why the US economy is in trouble? Look at the liberals who decided poor dumb Americans were too dumb to decide whether the mortgage on their houses was a good deal for them. Enter the Fair Lending Act. Sounds good, doesn't it? How can any politician vote against that? What the fair lending act does is puts a limit on fees a lender can earn and a limit on interest a lender can charge on a home loan. Sounds good, doesn't it? Wrong. When all these people in the US who bought houses with adjustable rate mortgages they couldn't afford and the rates started adjusting, thanks to the nanny state liberals, they now had nowhere to turn to refinance the house long enough to sell it. Miss a payment or two and the credit score is shot. No "conventional" bank will refinance you. A mere five years ago, that person could go get a loan on the subprime market. Was is a great deal? No, for a lender to lend that high risk person money, there has to be some incentive to make the risk worth taking for the lender. That is why they charge higher rates and make more fees. The Fair Lending Act stopped all that and put tons of small lenders out of business. For the record, there were already many laws in place that required explanation of the terms of a mortgage to the borrower. Next, poor dumb homeowner can't pay his adjustable rate mortgage and he can't refinance. The only option is foreclosure. Now the banks own tons of houses and the prices continue to plummet. There are great finance rates but few people can qualify and the banks' criteria are becoming even more strict so I predict this housing slump isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Thanks for helping us out nanny state liberals. That is what you are voting for with Obama and that is why I support McCain. I look forward to your next bile filled diatribe. Edited by Monkey Chow, Sep 7 2008, 06:42 AM.
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 7 2008, 06:54 AM Post #1883 |
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MaccaMomma
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I truly hate to use this "quote" thing but it's the only way I can somehow reply to what you've said.... First of all, I have not posted nearly as much negativity towards Obama as you give me credit for...but thanks anyway! I wouldn't consider my posts "vicious," either. Let me ask you, have you seen posts here about calling Obama "The Messiah" and all the other names that he's been called? Sure, many many months ago I posted about the rumor of Obama being Muslim; but I am not bashing his character just because I don't agree with his or the Demo's ideas of how to run this country!I am not wasting my time here "defending" Palin or even McCain, for that matter. Characterizing Republicans in the way in which you have done is frankly what is (as you put it) "typical of the opposition." There is just as much BS coming from the Demos. You tout the words "facts" and "truth" around alot; somehow it always seems to be positive for Obama's camp and negatives for McCains... You're right, I'm choosing not to "dish it out." I don't do so by posting endless quotes from liberals (such as Gloria Steinem...sorry, Linda, I can't stand her...no surprise there), Jon Stewart, yada yada yada. I spend a lot of time listening to both FOX and MSNBC and no matter what you say, FOX is from a conservative slant and MSNBC is from a liberal slant. It is sickneing to me to hear the negativity on both sides. Let me ask you; did you even watch the RNC or did you just glean your "facts" from newspapers/magazines? Just curious.... I also believe in not spending more than you earn; that is some of the "changes" that this gov't needs to make...but it's no easy task! I don't think ANY party will be able to accomplish that in 4 years. My husband and I are small business owners. If Obama raises our taxes to 50%, just WHO do you think will really pay? I believe in a strong military. If Obama wins, we will not have that. I believe in pro-life; you say you are like me...fine. But I'll take it a step further and say that I think abortion should be illegal. Obama can't decide when life begins; McCain believes it begins at conception...big difference. Not a popular belief among liberals but oh well. I believe that we should not have gov't-run health care. We do need health care reform, but not with the gov't running it! Can you imagine the mess they'll make of that? One of your favorites, Bill O'Reilly, is interviewing Obama in four sements on his show, with the first one shown last Thursday. It is very interesting. Watch it, if you dare Oh and before I end this lengthy post, let me point out to you that McCain and Obama are neck in neck in the polls. So my conservative "Republican" views are not as odd or unpopular as you make it sound. I'm not alone. Edited by Bag O' Nails, Sep 7 2008, 07:01 AM.
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| Bill | Sep 7 2008, 07:19 AM Post #1884 |
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Heidi, you are certainly not bashing Obama if you stick to the facts but since you have a record of posting easily debunked rubbish. I'm not calling you vicious, but the slander that you uncritically repeated certainly was. It cheapens your position. And frankly, I don't see how you can claim to be sickened by the negativity when you've been responsible for posting some of the most laughable examples of it.
What's your point? The facts back up everything I've said. If they don't, then show me where I'm wrong. If you're not going to show me where I'm wrong and just imply that I'm being mean for saying things that are true, then why bother discussing the issue at all? In what way have I been unfair to either side? Or are you suggesting that, as Stephen Colbert put it, reality has a liberal bias? If there's BS coming from the Dems, then quote it and debunk it. Don't just say, "they're each as bad," and leave it at that without any examples to back it up. Since you ask, I did watch as much of the RNC as I could stomach and yes, I also get my FACTS from newspapers and magazines because that's their job - to publish the facts. It's not "bias" just because the facts don't support you and it's not any less of a fact just because you put the word in quotation marks. If you choose not to defend McCain or Palin, that's your choice. But if nobody is going to explain to me why I'm wrong (and I accept that I can be wrong about things :p ) then I can only assume that I am right. Any time people post lies about Obama, I respond with the facts. If you've been paying attention, you'll note that I have also corrected lies and unfair criticism of McCain so your inference of unfair bias on y part is unworthy. Now if I have made any unfair, unworthy or simply untrue criticism of McCain or Palin and nobody takes the time to correct me, then what else am I to think?And yes, I did see Billo interviewing Obama and since you did too, I'd like to ask you something: How would you feel if Billo had interrupted and talked over John McCain like that? How would you feel if he'd behaved like that interviewing Bush? In what way will the military be weakened under an Obama presidency? If you believe McCain believes life begins at conception, then I think you're naive. McCain has never expressed a strong opinion on the issue until very recently. Regardless of who you agree with, this tells you that one man is honest and the other will say anything to get elected. McCain might say he believes that this week but you should do some research into what he has said in previous campaigns. That gets back to my question from before; Do you ever get the feeling he's just trying to push your buttons and really doesn't care about the issue at all? You say government shouldn't run health care because they'd make a mess of it. So you trust McCain to be commander in chief but not to run a health system? Do yo see the disconnect here? I've no doubt the Republicans would make a mess of it so that's why you need to vote for someone who wouldn't. You see, you're talking to someone who has public health care and we get by just fine, thank you very much. I think you sell yourself short if you think Americans are too stupid to do something that pretty much every other country in the western world can do. Did you know that John McCain has had government provided health care all his life? He's done okay, hasn't he? Polls? So what? Right is right and wrong is wrong. If the majority of people make the wrong decision, that doesn't make it any less wrong. You can fool some of the people all of the time. Edited by Bill, Sep 7 2008, 07:24 AM.
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| Bill | Sep 7 2008, 07:31 AM Post #1885 |
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Ron, you can blame "liberals" all you like for the housing crisis, but who has been in charge for the last 8 years? You've had neocons in the White House since 2001 and Republicans controlling congress between 1994 and 2006. If, in all that time (which included six years of completely unfettered Republican rule), they still couldn't see a crisis looming and do something to avert it, then I think it's rather disingenuous to blame the whole thing on "liberals." I do sincerely apologise if what I've said is unduly hateful, abusive or bilious.
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| Bill | Sep 7 2008, 07:37 AM Post #1886 |
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Lest anyone misunderstand what I meant by that, let me just say that one way or another, Americans will get the government they deserve. You always have before. And you can take that any way you like. Just spare a though for the rest of us whose countries will be impacted by US policy. If you knew what it was like to be trampled on and used by other countries looking to consolidate their own power while presuming to lead the free world, then you might understand why those of us outside the bubble get so passionate. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 7 2008, 08:23 AM Post #1887 |
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MaccaMomma
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I'm done. I've said my peace. I'm voting McCain. And that's a fact you can count on. Edited by Bag O' Nails, Sep 7 2008, 08:34 AM.
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![]() One sweet dream came true....London & Liverpool '08 | |
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| Bag O' Nails | Sep 7 2008, 08:30 AM Post #1888 |
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MaccaMomma
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Don't worry. It's coming. (but not from me )
Edited by Bag O' Nails, Sep 7 2008, 08:35 AM.
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![]() One sweet dream came true....London & Liverpool '08 | |
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| Bill | Sep 7 2008, 10:07 AM Post #1889 |
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You know Heidi, it occurs to me that I might have been a little over-cynical suggesting that McCain might not have been sincere about his views on where life begins. So let's do as Joe Lieberman suggests and assume the best. Let's just say McCain has had a personal epiphany this year that has led him to change a lifetime of fence-sitting on the issue. However, we have already agreed that no matter who wins, the abortion laws are not going to change one way or another - therefore, it's a non-issue in the election. If we accept that as a given (and I think we do) then it wouldn't matter if a candidate believed life doesn't begin until the 3rd birthday. It's a moot point. So let's make a deal: I'll bet you a $100 (US ) donation to the charity of your choice that no matter who wins, in two years' time, the federal abortion laws will not have changed one bit, nor will there be any processes in motion to make them any different to how they have been for the last 30 years.What do you say?
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| Monkey Chow | Sep 7 2008, 11:17 AM Post #1890 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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I concede only that the Fair Lending Act could not have passed without the votes of Republicans voting like liberals. |
| Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey. | |
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| Bill | Sep 7 2008, 11:49 AM Post #1891 |
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I'd be interested to check out the earmarks on that bill.
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| beatlechick | Sep 7 2008, 05:37 PM Post #1892 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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You know I think the mortgage mess is bullsh*t. That being said, however, the intention of the Fair Lending Act was to allow people, like me but don't earn enough money, to own a house. The American Dream that not all of America can do, is to have a house with 2 cars in the garage. I have never been able to even come up with a downpayment so that excludes me and most people that I know. However that bill was to allow people in better monetary positions than I to own a home. It was the corporations, I used to work with Countrywide the biggest assholes in all of this, that ruined it for the housing market. BTW, the very corporations that invest heavily in both parties but more to the conservatives of the Republican party than anyone else. This really is not a conservative vs liberal issue. This is about corporate greed. And I worked for one of the greediest who is now going downhill quick. I am, through no effort of mine, a part of 2 class action lawsuits against Countrywide both of them done by employees, current and past. I don't care if we win money, that is not the issue, but the way they handled loans and employees run neck to neck. I just want it known that it wasn't a liberal situation that has brought down the housing market to a crashing halt, it is corporate greed. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 7 2008, 05:53 PM Post #1893 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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For those of you interested in what the Fair Lending Act is all about, here it is: Fair Lending - HUD Oh and I might want to add that with the downfall of mortgage lenders, Angelo Mozilo the co-founder and ex-CEO of Countrywide walks away from the B of A merger with well over $100,000,000 in assets yet Countrywide was going bankrupt and Indymac Bank, which was owned by Countrywide, is now controlled by the feds. Countrywide literally lived on 'borrowed' time as while still head of the company and earning major bucks, Mozilo borrowed money to pay the employees. |
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| maccascruff | Sep 7 2008, 06:24 PM Post #1894 |
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Sing the Changes
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I admired Gloria Steinem back in the day, took many women's studies courses in college and still believe in women's rights. I've paid a pretty price for it in my career, too. I helped pave the way for women like Palin and younger women, so give me some respect. The Repugs let Sarah open her mouth. Wrong answer. From :http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/51940.html Excerpt: McCain's running mate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, speaking in Colorado Springs, Colo., said Fannie and Freddie had "gotten too big and too expensive to the taxpayers." The companies, however, aren't taxpayer funded but operate as private companies. The takeover may result in a taxpayer bailout during reorganization. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 7 2008, 06:36 PM Post #1895 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Linda, I really did hope that the letter you posted was a hoax but just looked it up in Snopes and here is their answer: Snopes.com |
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| Jacaranda | Sep 7 2008, 07:20 PM Post #1896 |
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Linda, thank you for posting the article by Gloria Steinem. It is an excellent piece. This is not simply a case of you using her as a mouthpiece for liberal ideology. If anyone reads the article closely, there are cogent points made within it that very clearly address many points that Republicans and some disaffected Democrats want to assert make Palin a good pick as VP. Steinem very simply says that Palin is not a good pick and basically states the facts -- McCain did not pick a qualified running mate. She has zero foreign policy experience and has even been quoted in public prior to her selection as saying "What does a vice president do?" McCain has made the unfortunate blunder of picking a flashy young attention-getter, a evangelical showpiece, as highlighted by her support by James Dobson. Palin believes in creationism and abstinence-based education which is enough to put her out of the running for me forever. One of the worst things about this selection of an unqualified candidate is this: it speaks to McCain's thought processes and his ability to select the people who would help him run this country, as well as the unfortunate rearing of the Republican Party bosses' influence in his choice. Had he decided to pick a qualified person (like Olympia Snowe who Steinem named in the article or Elizabeth Dole) then I may have had to think more carefully about who I might be voting for in this election. As of now, I don't have to. |
![]() "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through." General Melchett, Blackadder Goes Forth | |
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| Monkey Chow | Sep 7 2008, 07:32 PM Post #1897 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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Georgia Fair Lending Act and its progeny along with HUD regulations. |
| Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey. | |
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| maccascruff | Sep 8 2008, 01:14 AM Post #1898 |
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Sing the Changes
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Cathy, I had been told that letter was true. Lisa, I also felt the Steinem article was very well written. If you knew about my career at the IRS and the price I paid personally (in $ over my lifetime) because I was a woman, you would understand why I admire a woman like Gloria Steinem. As to the tax issues, here goes. This all comes from Obama's website: If you are a family making $250,000 or less, I will not raise your taxes. Not your income tax. Not your payroll tax, not your capital gains tax. Not any tax. I will cut your taxes. So I'm happy to have a debate about taxes with John McCain. -- Barack Obama, July 7, 2008 In addition: Obama will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family Obama will eliminate all income taxation of seniors making less than $50,000 per year. 27 million American seniors will not need to file an income tax return. Personally, after reading this table, I have no mercy on anyone whose taxes would go up under Obama's plan. If you make over $500,000, you deserve to pay a lot more in taxes. I make nothing near six figures and don't care if you have to pay more taxes. You should be paying more taxes. The two plans, as compared by the Tax Policy Center Earnings McCain Plan Obama Plan Under 19,000 Pay $19 less Pay $567 less 19000-38000 Pay $113 less Pay $892 less 38000-66000 Pay $319 less Pay $1,042 less 66000-112000 Pay $1,009 less Pay $1,209 less 112000-161000 Pay $2,619 less Pay $2,204 less 161000-227000 Pay $4.380 less Pay $2,789 less 227000-603000 Pay $7.871 less Pay $12 more 603000-2.8 million Pay $45,361 less Pay $115,974 more 2.8 million and up Pay $269,364 less Pay $701,885 more McCain's plan gives the greatest tax relief to the wealthiest Americans but Obama offers the greatest tax relief to the middle class. My question: How, under McCain's plan, does everyone pay less and the country survive? |
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| maccascruff | Sep 8 2008, 01:18 AM Post #1899 |
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Sing the Changes
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One more comment for the night--ponder this one. As the camera panned the delegates at the RNC, how many people of color did you see? Compare that to the people in the delegates at the DNC. When we were selected our delegates for the county convention from the caucuses, one of the criteria was that we had to have diversity. We had one man who wanted to go. He got to go. We had a woman of Asian descent. She went. One of Hispanic descent. She went. We also had several white women and several were disappointed. |
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| beatlechick | Sep 8 2008, 01:41 AM Post #1900 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Linda, to be fair I did see quite a few minorities at the RNC. Maybe not as many but still quite a few. |
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I just wish that he wouldn't keep using his Vietnamese imprisonment as a major part of his campaign. I know it is a major part of his life and he should be recognized for it but, please, look ahead to the future.
I didn't see that much of it, but from the comments I've read, that it was a snoozer.



LAUGH!




2:01 PM Jul 11