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| 2008 U.S. Presidential Election | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 22 2007, 05:49 AM (37,430 Views) | |
| Bill | Aug 26 2008, 04:13 AM Post #1601 |
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I appreciate that Kennedy means a lot to the party and vice-versa and I don't mean to be harsh, but it's not really relevant. The party are going to vote for Obama anyway. What they need to focus is winning over others and Kennedy-worship isn't going to do that for the Dems any more than Reagan-worship will do it for the Republicans. That's why I made the comparison with Regan in 1996. Everyone in the room cheered him when he said, "Mr Clinton, you're no Bob Dole," but everyone else laughed. At him, not with him. I know that all sounds really harsh, but I honestly think the backslapping needs to be saved until January and the best way to get there is to be forward looking. Having him there and speaking is fair enough, but "Still the one," is as tired and cliched as "Four more years." It's embarrassing.
Edited by Bill, Aug 26 2008, 04:16 AM.
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| beatlechick | Aug 26 2008, 04:27 AM Post #1602 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Bill, he is still the one that gets things going. He's still the one that fights for national healthcare. He's still the one that cares for the nation's poor. He's still in the Senate and still tries his best to get things done. |
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| fab4fan | Aug 26 2008, 05:05 AM Post #1603 |
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I want to clarify something. When I said I was disappointed with Obama's response to the Saddleback question about abortion I didn't do it as a "gotcha" moment, I did it as a supporter of a candidate whom I thought had left himself wide open to the kind of damage that the video Mary Ann posted will, and is, doing to him. I believe life begins at conception. Barrack got it right when he said that if that is your belief, your faith, we would never see eye to eye on that issue. To say it is above his pay scale about when life begins is a cute line. But who here can honestly say that letting babies who are born alive and healthy out to die with the soiled linen is anything but barbaric? (BTW, I've already seen bumper stickers that say "The Presidency is above your pay scale!") You would think with what I've said that I have changed my vote. Not true. I agree with Bill that the abortion issue is like the Olympics, once every four years. As such however both sides have its zealots. Roe v Wade is settled law, it's not going to be overturned no matter how many Republicans are elected president and how ever many Supreme Court justices they appoint. As an American I have to accept that some people out there think that 3 month old fetuses might become 1948 Buicks or something other than a human being and wish to kill them. 9 month olds born, left to die barbarically, that's pushing it. (I know 9 months is only about half the time that Bush rushed to war in Iraq, but it seems to me you can choose to have an abortion a lot sooner than the situation described in the video.) Anyhow, the long and short of what I am trying to point out is something along the lines of what Bev said. The outcome of the election is not in the bag. The above issue could motivate a lot of people. Many of Hillary's supporters in the states where Obama didn't do as well could be swayed by it. Call it dirty politics, call it explotative. Barrack better see it as effective and say something better than his pay scale line. |
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| scottycatt | Aug 26 2008, 05:11 AM Post #1604 |
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Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I will agree with you on one thing, though . . . I don't think they should've used "Still the One" as the background music. I never did like that tune!!!
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| beatlechick | Aug 26 2008, 05:27 AM Post #1605 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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I did. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 26 2008, 05:31 AM Post #1606 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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John, your statement was very well said. That being said, this type of film has dogged democratic president nominees for a long time. It dogged Clinton and Kerry. It beat neither of them. I know there will be some that it may sway but if you are already on one side of the issue and for/against any particular candidate, you already have your mind made up. Yes, the law can be overturned at the Federal level. Not likely to but it can be done. |
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| maccascruff | Aug 26 2008, 03:40 PM Post #1607 |
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Sing the Changes
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1) John and Cindy McCain Have 10 Houses, i.e. Guess which kitchen table is McCain at now? http://www.mccainvminnesota.com/cribs.html With John McCain's houses a major news item now, it was inevitable that someone would make a Google map showing them all. Here is a list of the properties. No. Location Type Price Bought Owner 1 Phoenix , AZ Condo $4,666,814 2006 Cindy McCain Trust 2 Coronado , CA Condo $2,705,040 ? Dreamcatcher Family 3 Coronado , CA Condo $2,100,000 2008 Dreamcatcher Family 4 Sedona , AZ House $405,707 ? Cindy McCain Trust 5 Sedona , AZ House $369,929 ? Cindy McCain Trust 6 Sedona , AZ House $327,929 ? Sedona Hidden Valley Ltd. Partnership 7 La Jolla , CA Condo >$1,000,000 ? Hensley Survivors Trust 8 Arlington , VA Condo $847,800 ? Cindy McCain Trust 9 Phoenix , AZ Loft $700,000 2007 Meghan McCain (graduation present) 10 Phoenix , AZ Loft $700,000 2007 Wild River LLC |
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| maccascruff | Aug 26 2008, 03:41 PM Post #1608 |
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Sing the Changes
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And then the McCain flip-flops. http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/flipflops |
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| Deleted User | Aug 26 2008, 04:09 PM Post #1609 |
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John and Cindy McCain Have 10 Houses “Of those 80 million homeowners, only 55 million have a mortgage at all, and 51 million are doing what is necessary --working a second job, skipping a vacation, and managing their budgets -- to make their payments on time. That leaves us with a puzzling situation: how could 4 million mortgages cause this much trouble for us all? --John McCain [Economic Speech in Santa Ana, CA, 3/25/08] Before a president can effectively govern this diverse nation, they must first be able to understand the needs and struggles of its citizens. McCain’s astonishing wealth makes it impossible for him to relate to the millions of Americans who have been hurt by the economy. John & Cindy McCain Own At Least Nine Houses In Arizona, California, and Virginia Worth an Estimated $13,123,269. John and Cindy McCain own a plethora of houses spread throughout the United States, including: two beachfront condos in Coronado, California, condo in La Jolla, California, a two-unit condominium complex in Phoenix, Arizona, three ranch houses located outside of Sedona, Arizona, a high-rise condo in Arlington, Virginia, and, according to GQ, a loft they bought for their daughter, Meghan. The value of their houses is an estimated $13,123,269. [San Diego County Property Records; Maricopa County Property Records; Yavapai County Property Records; Arlington County Property Records; GQ, 3/18/08]
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| wackadoo | Aug 26 2008, 11:59 PM Post #1610 |
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Is it a criteria then for a president to not be wealthy? If so, wasn't Reagan wealthy? John Kennedy? The Clintons? Ted Kennedy is wealthy and he ran for the presidency. By the way.....the combined income of Barrack Obama and his wife Michelle was estimated at $1,700,000.00 during the year of 2005!... I guess that makes him ALSO out of touch with the common man. The majority of US Presidents, Democrat OR Repubican, throughout history were wealthy men. Considering the current economic state of our housing market, McCain is probably suffering losses much like the common man. |
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| Bill | Aug 27 2008, 12:28 AM Post #1611 |
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Well for a start, when he entered the White House, Bill Clinton was one of the poorest presidents ever. Comparing him to Reagan or Kennedy is not fair on any of them. No-one said you had to be poor to run for office. The point is that if you're going to smear your opponent as being "elitist" and out of touch with common people, it would help if such a smear wasn't coming from someone with between seven and ten houses and needs "his staff" to keep track of them. If the Obamas earned $1.7 million in 2005, that makes them less than rich according to McCain's throwaway line. Now how much did the McCains make in 2005? Only when we know that will it be a fair comparison and we will know who has the right to call the other an elitist. Do you honestly think that McCain is suffering the personal devastation of the housing crunch in the same way as people who have just been evicted? Give me a break! But by his own frank admission, McCain doesn't know much about economics. What I'd like to know is why it's bad to be a Vietnam veteran married to a billionaire heiress in 2004 but it's a good thing in 2008. You can't have it both ways. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 01:03 AM Post #1612 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Hmmm.... let's break this down for 2006, shall we? This is the Obama's tax return for 2006 The Obamas Tax Return Income 2006 Self-Employment (Author) $506,618 Wages 430,700 Other 51,200 Interest 4,590 Dividends 1,188 Capital Gains –3,000 Total $991,296 Most of this income comes from the books that Barack wrote. And now for the McCain's for the same year.... The McCains Tax Return Income 2006 Schedule E $4,551,901 Capital Gains 743,476 Wages 598,836 Dividends 283,240 Self-Employment (Author) 80,388 Tax Refunds 58,016 Business Asset Gains 49,698 Interest 40,462 Social Security 22,104 Total $6,428,121 Most of this income comes from Cindy who won't release her 2007 income. 2006 tax returns for the Obamas and the McCains Here is a quote from McCain Houses that states
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 01:05 AM Post #1613 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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From that same article about the McCain houses is this comment
So just who is out of touch with regular people? |
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 01:14 AM Post #1614 |
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And no, you don't have to be poor. Just be a realist to what is going on. I know when McCain said that his rich index of $5,000,000 was a real answer. I know he was joking. For him to not realize just how many houses he and Cindy own than to state the $1.6 million house making Obama out of touch with regular Americans, and the advice they got from Rezko, is just ludicris. If you are going to make such statements, make sure you don't have any skeletons that you can't remember in your closet. |
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| wackadoo | Aug 27 2008, 01:14 AM Post #1615 |
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The smear came from Obama towards McCain...he accused him of not knowing how many homes he owned. Did you see the Saddleaback interview? Obama described wealthy as anyone making over $250,000 per year. By his own admission, Obama is almost 7 times wealtlhier than his baseline of a wealthy man. The point I was trying to make is that it is insignificant if a US president is wealthy or not. Some of our best presidents, Kennedy and Reagan for example, were wealthy. I doubt the Clintons were too poor with one being a governor and one being a successful attorney. Give ME a break! You would have to be out of touch with our economy in America not to know that every homeowner is being affected by the drop in home values, wealthy or not. Bottom line: It doesn't matter AT ALL if you are a wealthy president or not. |
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| Bill | Aug 27 2008, 01:17 AM Post #1616 |
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I've just seen McCain's appearance on Leno responding to the houses question by bringing up is POW experience. With the utmost respect for McCain's service and suffering and sacrifice, I can show you plenty of POWs who know exactly how many houses they own. As usual, the McCain campaign is confused. If they want to push the "American dream" angle and say, "Hey, isn't it great that John's father in law got to create such a great business that so many have benefitted from," then you can't, at the same time, say that the other guy is elitist and out of touch with common people for living the same dream! I hate to sound like a broken record, but you can't have it both ways. |
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| Bill | Aug 27 2008, 01:21 AM Post #1617 |
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Maryanne, if it doesn't matter that someone is wealthy, why are the Republicans dissing Obama for being elitist? They've been doing this for six months, long before the houses question came up so you can't blame that on Obama. And if it's okay to be rich, why criticise Obama for being rich? I'm not criticising McCain for being rich, I'm criticising his campaign for being hypocrites. Wealth is not the issue. Hypocrisy is. As for the Clintons, I didn't say they were poor - I said that relatively speaking, they were among the poorest occupants of the White House when they moved in. It's a fact, look it up. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 01:24 AM Post #1618 |
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Where do I start? Obama was not smearing McCain. He did that by himself in an interview with Politico. com. Had Obama made such an omission, I doubt that you would call it a smear. I did see the Saddleback forum. From where I sit, $250,000 is a sh*tload of money. For me, and a good deal of Americans that is pretty rich. Not wealthy but pretty damn rich. Obama never once said he was not rich. Don't get me started on the wealthy and the typical homeowner. I worked with Countrywide during the time of the sub-prime loan days. Angelo Mozilo made a sh*tload of money off of the backs of the very same homeowners that he proposed on helping. It is because of people, and businesses like his that the American homeowner is in such a bad state. The prices were inflated. 10 years ago, the house I live in was bought for about $200,000. 2 years ago comparables in my area went for $500,000-$600,000. Now they are selling as foreclosures for about $200,000-300,000. |
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| Bill | Aug 27 2008, 01:30 AM Post #1619 |
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Anyone who thinks $250,000 a year isn't a more than comfortable living needs a lifestyle adjustment. I'll trade if they're unhappy. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 01:33 AM Post #1620 |
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Bill, I know the tax structure where you are is considerable it is pretty big here as well. As much as I would love to have $250,000, it would not make anyone close to rich. But it sure as hell would be a lot better than what I have now!
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| maccascruff | Aug 27 2008, 01:52 AM Post #1621 |
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Sing the Changes
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It is the hypocrisy from McCain that is the issue. It is not the statement. He called Obama elitist and out of touch. If you don't know how many houses you own, you are elitist and out of touch. That is all there is to it. Go ahead and vote for McCain. You live in California, which is very much blue Edited by maccascruff, Aug 27 2008, 02:01 AM.
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| Bill | Aug 27 2008, 01:57 AM Post #1622 |
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Hey now, every vote counts and everyone has to right to vote for who they choose to. I've said this before, but I'm all for elitism. It brings out the best in people. You have to wonder about people who denigrate others for being "elite" when the underpinning premise of the criticism is that the people they're shitcanning are actually better!
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| maccascruff | Aug 27 2008, 01:59 AM Post #1623 |
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Sing the Changes
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I would consider myself to be quite well to do if I made $250,000 a year. I never have and never will. I don't think there should be a single tax break for anyone making more than that and Obama doesn't either. He understands about the little people, like me. I prepare tax returns. Due to the 10% and 15% tax rate on capital gains that I cannot take advantage of, my effective tax rate is higher than most of my clients who earn over $250,000. There is something fundamentally wrong with that. |
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| maccascruff | Aug 27 2008, 02:00 AM Post #1624 |
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Sing the Changes
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I know that, Bill. I have a cousin who lives in Arizona who is for Obama, but says her vote will be totally wasted. |
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| Bill | Aug 27 2008, 02:03 AM Post #1625 |
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If you don't tax the poor at a higher rate than the rich, then there is no incentive for them to earn more money. Don't you know anything about economics?
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| wackadoo | Aug 27 2008, 02:06 AM Post #1626 |
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I guess it would depend on whether 9/11 had a direct impact on you and your family as to whether you would support the initial reason we went to war. We lost 3,000+ Americans that day due to an attack on our own soil. Wouldn't it be an insult to those who either lost their lives or to those who lost loved ones if we had a president who would have not taken action on those countries who supported the terrorists? As president of the United States, what would you have done? Don't forget that congress voted in favor of the war, including both Democrats and Republicans. At that time, most Americans were proud of Bush for taking aggressive action. Remember too that Prime Minister Tony Blair was also in agreement with us in that decision. Have you ever thought of what would have happened if we had NOT taken aggressive action against the terrrorists? Prior to 9/11, we were taunted by these same terrorists with several attacks on our Embassies and a previous attempt on our World Trade Center. When aggressive action was not taken, they became more aggressive as shown by the attacks on 9/11. How can one compare an aggravated war against a peaceful nation by terrorists who have no regard for human life, to the life of an innocent baby? |
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| maccascruff | Aug 27 2008, 02:08 AM Post #1627 |
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Sing the Changes
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9/11 had absolutely nothing to do with the invastion of Iraq. I have never seen anything wrong with invading Afghanistan. And Bush didn't finish the job there. Look at the mess it is in now. |
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| Bill | Aug 27 2008, 02:13 AM Post #1628 |
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Maryanne, please explain to me what the invasion of Iraq had to do with Sept 11? Even the most ardent right wing nuts have given up on that one. Are you saying that every lame-brained policy Bush has pursued is justified because of Sept 11? The fact is, America is less safe and secure now because of the invasion of Iraq and the loss of focus in Afghanistan. WHERE IS BIN LADEN????? There's a difference between doing something and doing the right thing. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 02:16 AM Post #1629 |
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Mary Ann, the reasons we went to war had nothing to do with the attacks on 9/11. Within a couple of hours the war was thought of. Not a couple of days but a matter of hours. The selling of this war was based on lies! There were no WMD's. Did you see Bush's War? That was quite the eye-opener and I hope that PBS will show it once again. It was based entirely on facts. Taken directly from documents, audiotapes, videotapes, and sworn testimony. The alarming part was that no one representing Bush questioned it. Hell, even some of Bush's representatives were a part of the program! I highly recommend seeing this show. When you do, than come back and state we went to war because of 9/11. I don't think anyone can ever accuse the US as being a peaceful nation. Just because we haven't been in wars does not mean that we haven't taken part in most of the wars around the world. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 02:17 AM Post #1630 |
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I have Hillary to go watch at the DNC. See you later! |
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| maccascruff | Aug 27 2008, 02:17 AM Post #1631 |
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Sing the Changes
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Such words of wisdom. I thought this was all debated years ago. I know we did this one on pm.com. Have we done it here. There is no correlation, absolutely none, between 9/11 and Iraq. Iraq is less stable because of the US invasion, not the other way around. |
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| wackadoo | Aug 27 2008, 02:18 AM Post #1632 |
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More reason to vote for McCain! He says he will follow him to the gates of hell and knows how to do it!!!! Good point, Bill! |
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| maccascruff | Aug 27 2008, 02:18 AM Post #1633 |
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Sing the Changes
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Me. too. I think she will give a fantastic speech. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 02:19 AM Post #1634 |
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I think we have had little debates about it here. Not as big as pm.com but I'm sure we had some. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 02:20 AM Post #1635 |
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One more thing before I go. If McCain knows how to get Bin Laden, why not talk about it now? Do something about it now? Why wait until after the election and have more people die? |
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 02:21 AM Post #1636 |
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I hope so! |
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| maccascruff | Aug 27 2008, 02:22 AM Post #1637 |
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Sing the Changes
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What about Iraq? |
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| wackadoo | Aug 27 2008, 02:32 AM Post #1638 |
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I totally agree with you on this. |
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| wackadoo | Aug 27 2008, 02:41 AM Post #1639 |
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You are obviously talking about the wmd. It was more about the terrorists than the wmds. I'm sure it was thought that there was a real threat to our country at that time. Iraq was giving support to bin Ladin and were also a terrorist country. It would be naive to think that the war was not related to 9/11. Think about the timing of the war. It's a no brainer. |
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| Bill | Aug 27 2008, 02:44 AM Post #1640 |
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Yeah, because he's going to continue the policies that have let him get away for the last 7 years! What a crock! Iraq did NOT support bin Laden. If you still believe that, you are grossly misinformed. Hussein and bin Laden HATED each other! Read the 9/11 commission report. There was no relationship. The one (ONE!) piece of evidence the administration put up to support the notion that they were in cahoots was proved to be a fabrication. No disrespect, but please inform yourself. This is SUCH old news. |
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| fab4fan | Aug 27 2008, 03:30 AM Post #1641 |
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I can't even convey how happy I am that she spoke tonight and not Thursday. (sorry Bev )
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 03:40 AM Post #1642 |
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Sorry, Bin Laden did not get along with Iraq. Outside terrorism did not exist in Iraq as Saddam would not permit it. He was their terrorist. He and his sons. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 03:41 AM Post #1643 |
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John, Hillary gave a great speech. Hopefully her disenfranchised voters who aren't sure who to vote for listened, REALLY listened. |
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| scottycatt | Aug 27 2008, 06:37 AM Post #1644 |
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Spot on!! Why keep the *secret formula* all to yourself and let more young men and women needlessly die? Just so you can get yourself into office and THEN unveil your magic formula for finding Bin Laden??? With all due respect, Mary Ann, that argument makes absolutely NO SENSE!! And I won't even debate with you about how many houses McCain owns. There are so many larger issues that each of the candidates should, and better start addressing now or they will both find their potential voters staying home in droves on election day. |
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| scottycatt | Aug 27 2008, 06:40 AM Post #1645 |
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Not as sorry as I am, John. What a speech!! Consider me as still a member of the 'Sisterhood of the Traveling Pantsuits'.
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| Bill | Aug 27 2008, 08:19 AM Post #1646 |
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Just so long as you're not a member of PUMA.
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Aug 27 2008, 11:42 AM Post #1647 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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Hillary Urges Dems to United Under Obama: "No way, no how, no McCain" DENVER — With her husband looking on tenderly and her supporters watching with tears in their eyes, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton deferred her own dreams on Tuesday night and delivered an emphatic plea at the Democratic National Convention to unite behind her rival, Senator Barack Obama, no matter what ill will lingered. Mrs. Clinton, who was once certain that she would win the Democratic nomination this year, also took steps on Tuesday — deliberate steps, aides said — to keep the door open to a future bid for the presidency. She rallied supporters in her speech, and, at an earlier event with 3,000 women, described her passion about her own campaign. And her aides limited input on the speech from Obama advisers, while seeking advice from her former strategist, Mark Penn, a loathed figure in the Obama camp. But the main task for Mrs. Clinton at the convention — reaffirming her support for Mr. Obama in soaring and unconditional language — dominated her 23-minute speech, and she betrayed none of the anger and disappointment that she still feels, friends say, and that has especially haunted her husband. Declaring herself to be “a proud supporter of Barack Obama,” Mrs. Clinton urged Democrats to put aside their loyalty to her and unite behind Mr. Obama — or risk continuing Bush administration policies under the presumptive Republican nominee, Senator John McCain. “Whether you voted for me, or voted for Barack, the time is now to unite as a single party with a single purpose,” Mrs. Clinton said, beaming as the convention hall burst into applause. “And you haven’t worked so hard over the last 18 months, or endured the last eight years, to suffer through more failed leadership.” She added, “No way, no how, no McCain.” Full article |
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| fab4fan | Aug 27 2008, 12:07 PM Post #1648 |
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What is this based on?
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Aug 27 2008, 12:27 PM Post #1649 |
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Bill and Cathy are right. Iraq and Saddam's regime had nothing to do with bin Laden or the 9/11 atrocity. The attempted spin to link that terrorist act with Iraq was debunked quite a while ago and, in fact, I think it is a direct insult to those who lost their lives in 9/11 to wage an unjust war in their name. Don't forget that there was a significant delay between attempting to topple Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and to capture those responsible for the twin towers - a military operation completely justified, in my opinion - and declaring war on Iraq based on the non-existent Weapons of Mass Destruction.
If I was the President of the United States? I would have limited my military action to Afghanistan and attempted, through diplomacy, to work with Pakistan in order to inflitrate Al-Qaeda until the figureheads, leaders and soldiers were captured and brought to justice. As for Iraq, which is a completely separate issue, I would have waited for a UN resolution and worked as part of the UN, as a member state, in order to being Saddam's regime into line. If the government of Iraq needed to be deposed under human rights atrocities and suspected manufacturing of chemical or nuclear weapons, then I would have worked with and used my influence on the UN in order to have made that happen. If, of course, we were thinking along the lines of human rights atrocities, then I would also have given my attention to the many undemocratic regimes across the world and not just Iraq. Of course I remember that Blair supported the US' actions against Iraq - and I criticised him for it then just as much as I do now, although I can also remember Blair still wanting to continue along the diplomatic route via the UN rather than launching a full-scale war, something Bush seemed a little too eager to do, but I was disgusted with him for supporting the US' unilateral actions when so many governments across the world condemned it. I think my government made a good call when it came to Afghanistan and an unwise decision regarding Iraq. Simply put, Blair and his cabinet were wrong.
Well, had Britain not aligned itself firmly with America and been seen as the US' lapdog when it came to Iraq, I don't think the 7/7 terrorist attacks would have happened in London. Since 9/11, we have witnessed a President use the lives of those lost in that attack as part of the justification for Iraq, which is beyond forgivable. We have witnessed bills and laws being passed which have effectively allowed our governments to spy on our telephone calls, internet transactions and other movements and for our government agencies to remove citizens from their countries, transporting them to other countries in order to torture them. We have seen laws introduced allowing people to be held for weeks on end without charge and without a right to legal counsel. The world was almost unanimously sympathetic when 9/11 happened, with only a few extremist groups supporting the actions of the terrorists. If the US would have limited its actions to Afghanistan until the people behind that attack were caught and brought to justice, we wouldn't be in the mess that we're in now. Unfortunately, with the war waged against Iraq and the aggression the US have shown against Iran, the sympathy many European and the 'Middle-Eastern' nations had for the US has disappeared and they are seen as the aggressors intent on securing their own interests in the region, not a justified liberating force. It has turned from the US fighting back against a dispicable terrorist attack into an explosive situation which has seen Muslims feeling as if their religion itself has come under attack and could easily result in World War Three.
Sorry, Mary Ann. Considering the actions of the US in foreign affairs post-World War II, you would have to do a lot of convincing to persuade me that the United States Of America is a peaceful nation. Of course, living in the US, many people do not even know or care about what their country is doing all over the world. If you were aware of the US' actions in certain South American countries, deposing democratically elected governments in order to install fascist dictators who will serve US interests, then you may see your own country in a different light. It is a pity that many people's eyes were only opened when something happened on their home soil and an even greater pity that the American people didn't have a more honest administration who should have focused on who was responsible instead of attempting to use the emotional and patrotic feelings of Americans regarding 9/11 as leverage to wage war against Iraq. Shame on them. The Iraq war was not anything to do with 9/11. I'm sorry that you've been fooled by your government's now completely discredited spin which attempted to tie the two things together. Personally, if I was you, I'd be angry that I've been fooled into believing an untruth by a lying and dishonourable President. If you want more of the same - by all means, vote for John McCain - but on your own conscience be it. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Aug 27 2008, 12:31 PM Post #1650 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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I feel a little quoted out of context here and can't remember - or find - what that was in response to. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Bill | Aug 27 2008, 01:01 PM Post #1651 |
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I think it's pretty lame to always turn it on the critic and say "Okay smart guy, what would you do?" I don't think any of us here presume to know how to run a nation. If I ruled the world, it would be f*cked. I make no bones about it. But since it's pretty f*cked anyway, I think my opinion is as good as the next idiot's. I'm no genius but when leaders enact policies and strategies so dumb that even a shitkicker like me can tell they spell disaster, then it's a dereliction of our duty as citizens of the free world not to speak up about it. At this point, I will stand on my record. My opinions and predictions about US foreign policy are all over this board and the Macca board - you can all look it up. And for the most part, I was right. That gives me no joy. To borrow a line from Barrack, for the good of America and for the world, I wish I'd been wrong and they'd been right. But that's not how things turned out. And again, I'm no genius but according to my simple mind, if the policies you've been following for the last 7 years haven't worked, the smart thing to do would be to stop doing it and try something else. But what would I know? |
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| maccascruff | Aug 27 2008, 01:03 PM Post #1652 |
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Sing the Changes
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Could it be because McCain dated his first wife, Carol, while she was married to someone else and dated his current wife, Cindy, while he was married to Carol? Andy, I was in on that 9/11 has nothing to do with Iraq discussion last night. I thought Hillary gave one great speech last night and I hope her supporters can come to grips with reality and will vote for Obama in November. I'm afraid that the truth of the matter is that Hillary is not the nominee and they have to get over it. For me, the most important issue is the economy, not the war or abortion. The economy totally stinks and the policies of the current administration caused this. We are spending $400 million per day in Iraq. Think of what we could do if that ended. |
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| maccascruff | Aug 27 2008, 01:05 PM Post #1653 |
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Sing the Changes
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Bill, a slight correction. It's Barack with one r. Thank you, mate.
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| maccascruff | Aug 27 2008, 01:07 PM Post #1654 |
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Sing the Changes
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This is fact, not fiction, as the wmd argument was. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Aug 27 2008, 01:11 PM Post #1655 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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My apologies, Linda - I wasn't sure and didn't want to close the 'reply' window to review all of the replies and so went with what I was completely certain of. As for McCain not loving anything, it was probably a cheap shot, but it's based on his whole demeanor, his policies, the way he talks - the fact that, OK he's a comparitively progressive Republican, but he's not shown me an awful lot to say that he'd be much of an improvement on the current, uncaring, administration. The whole, "bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" thing didn't exactly help his cause. The only thing I can say about him is that he'd be a slight improvement on Bush - but only in the way that having bad 'flu is an improvement on having pneumonia. I'm sure he loves certain things. Money, for example - and houses.
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| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Bill | Aug 27 2008, 01:21 PM Post #1656 |
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Force of habit - my apologies. You see, "barrack" (emphasis on the first syllable) is Australian for "cheer for." Appropriate?
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| Deleted User | Aug 27 2008, 10:14 PM Post #1657 |
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I don't know much about politics, so I will probably just vote for whichever one graduated at the top of his class at Harvard Law School or whose wife graduated from both Princeton and Harvard. It doesn't even matter which party they are from. If they got through those schools, they are probably pretty smart. Who knows, they might even be good at delivering inspirational speeches that give hope to millions of under-privileged people.
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| wackadoo | Aug 27 2008, 11:01 PM Post #1658 |
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Thank you, Andy for your thorough response to my questions. I was sincere with my line of questions, no sarcasm meant at all. I respect your opinions and I know you put a lot of thought behind your words. Do you mind if I ask where you get most of your information on American politics? It's quite good and a lot of it makes sense. My in-laws subscribed an extremely right wing magazine for me and I rarely read it because it gives off too much negativity. I can barely stand watching the news because the slant is to the extreme left. I think its difficult to find information that is not biased either way. I know it appears that I am completely behind McCain but that isn't necessarily so. I've tried to keep an open mind but what I like about McCain is that fact that he has fought for this country and, to a certain degree, has a lot of experience. I am impressed by the fact that he got 75% of the Hispanic vote when he ran for office in Arizona. That shows me that he works with racial diversity. I always admire a person who 'lays it out' with bottomline wording. I like his solutions to many of our current problems in America. As for Obama, I admit I haven't done much research mostly because the few things I do know don't impress me. I keep hearing him talk of change in America but I don't hear those words being backed up by solutions. We all want change and soon! His experience level seems quite limited, even to Hilary and his own vice presidential choice. He seems like he is a work in progess and could possibly be a good choice after a few more years of experience. I also wasn't impressed at all when he did not choose Hilary as his running mate. He knew that many of his own party would have been thrilled to have them together since they are in agreement on so many issues. Could this mean that he isn't overly concerned as to what the people want? For the record, I loved Hilary's speech last night. Even though it was a bit "pro Clinton," she showed her support for Obama and that showed class. I love the ambition of the Clintons and they never disappoint. |
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| wackadoo | Aug 27 2008, 11:06 PM Post #1659 |
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Actually Bill...I did not mean it in any kind of sarcastic way. I have personally met Andy and I know he is honest and fair. I do value his opinion and I can tell he is well-versed on many topics. I always enjoy hearing your take on issues as well. Even though I haven't met you, you never cease to amaze me with your wisdom. I know I don't post a lot but I am one of those who reads without posting. I want to do better with that. I have read a lot of what you write and mostly agree with you. |
![]() RIP Steve. I love and miss you. | |
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| fab4fan | Aug 27 2008, 11:10 PM Post #1660 |
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http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Conventions/story?id=5668622&page=1 ABC Reporter Arrested in Denver Taking Pictures of Senators, Big Donors Asa Eslocker Was Investigating the Role of Lobbyists and Top Donors at the Convention By BRIAN ROSS Aug. 27, 2008— DENVER--Police in Denver arrested an ABC News producer today as he and a camera crew were attempting to take pictures on a public sidewalk of Democratic Senators and VIP donors leaving a private meeting at the Brown Palace Hotel. Police on the scene refused to tell ABC lawyers the charges against the producer, Asa Eslocker, who works with the ABC News investigative unit. (Click here to watch video of the arrest.) http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=5670682 A cigar-smoking Denver police sergeant, accompanied by a team of five other officers, first put his hands on Eslocker's neck, then twisted the producers arm behind him to put on handcuffs. A police official later told lawyers for ABC News that Eslocker is being charged with trespass, interference, and failure to follow a lawful order. He also said the arrest followed a signed complaint from the Brown Palace Hotel. Eslocker was put in handcuffs and loaded in the back of a police van which headed for a nearby police station. Video taken at the scene shows a man, wearing the uniform of a Boulder County sheriff, ordering Eslocker off the sidewalk in front of the hotel, to the side of the entrance. The sheriff's officer is seen telling Eslocker the sidewalk is owned by the hotel. Later he is seen pushing Eslocker off the sidewalk into oncoming traffic, forcing him to the other side of the street. It was two hours later when Denver police arrived to place Eslocker under arrest, apparently based on a complaint from the Brown Palace Hotel, a central location for Democratic officials. During the arrest, one of the officers can be heard saying to Eslocker, "You're lucky I didn't knock the f..k out of you." Eslocker was released late today after posting $500 bond. Eslocker and his ABC News colleagues are spending the week investigating the role of corporate lobbyists and wealthy donors at the convention for a series of Money Trail reports on ABC World News with Charles Gibson. Click Here for the Investigative Homepage. Copyright © 2008 ABC News Internet Ventures Edited by fab4fan, Aug 27 2008, 11:16 PM.
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| Mnisthiti mou Kurie! | |
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| wackadoo | Aug 27 2008, 11:10 PM Post #1661 |
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Bev, I agree with you on the low revelence of how many homes one owns compared to the issues we are facing in this country. We have done some investing ourselves and right now, we are struggling financially. Owning homes does not make one rich. Some investments work out well and some do not.
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| fab4fan | Aug 27 2008, 11:15 PM Post #1662 |
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You were quoted out of context! And you're right, it was a cheap shot. I recognize those because many of mine are sprinkled liberally (no pun intended) throughout these pages. No harm, no foul? (We got a couple extra posts out of it.) |
| Mnisthiti mou Kurie! | |
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| wackadoo | Aug 27 2008, 11:15 PM Post #1663 |
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I haven't completely made up my mind yet, to be honest. Whether my state is 'blue' or not doesn't sway me in the slightest. Don't forget that we have the Terminator!!! Whether I like him or not, he IS a Repulican. We can be open minded here in California! |
![]() RIP Steve. I love and miss you. | |
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| fab4fan | Aug 27 2008, 11:19 PM Post #1664 |
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Mary Ann? I can hear the sizzle on that one. You learn quick.
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| Mnisthiti mou Kurie! | |
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 11:34 PM Post #1665 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Funny in the States, Barrack means the place where a soldier sleeps. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 11:46 PM Post #1666 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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The problem with McCain is that he is basing his leadership, not so much his year in the Senate (fact it, racist Strom Thurmond outranked him with 46 years in office and tried for the Presidency, too) but his 5 1/2 years in a Vietnamese prison fighting another unjust war. Yes you can look up his record but you can also look up the works of Obama. I do highly recommend Obama's book Dreams From My Father. It tells you a lot about where he came from and who he is. What his beliefs are. He heavily believes in diplomacy and learned from the best, his grandmother and his mother. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 27 2008, 11:47 PM Post #1667 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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John, that article you posted is very interesting. I guess we shall see how this all plays out. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 28 2008, 12:15 AM Post #1668 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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omigawd Melissa Etheridge! That girl can........SANG (yes I know it's sing but when you yell it, it comes out like sang)! She did the US (God Bless America), Lennon (Give Peace a Chance-which brought tears to my eyes for the 2nd time today at the Convention), and Bruuuuuuce (Born in the USA) and Bob Dylan (The Times They Are A-Changing) closing with God Bless America again, proud!! Great job Melissa!!!
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| Bill | Aug 28 2008, 12:26 AM Post #1669 |
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I'm sorry if that seemed specifically directed at you. It was a little bit but it more intended as a general observation. I have a question though - how do you figure that the news media is biased to the extreme left? I don't know what your definition is, but I consider the "extreme" left to Castro or Chavez territory, and I don't see anyone in the US news media (and yes, I do see a fair bit of it - the internet is a wonderful thing) advocating anything like that. Obviously outlets like CNN appear to the left of right wing shills like Fox news, but what objective reporting wouldn't? The facts are the facts. And if the fact is that the war in Iraq has be dragged out indefinitely largely due to administration incompetence, that's not biased, that's the way it is. Or as Stephen Colbert says, reality has a liberal bias.
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| Bill | Aug 28 2008, 12:33 AM Post #1670 |
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John, is that anything to do with the "Blue Dog" thing? http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/08/26/partying-with-the-blue-dogs/ |
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| fab4fan | Aug 28 2008, 01:41 AM Post #1671 |
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I see said the blind man!
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| Mnisthiti mou Kurie! | |
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| maccascruff | Aug 28 2008, 01:55 AM Post #1672 |
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Sing the Changes
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Personally, I do not think being a POW has anything to do with being qualified to be president. That book is outstanding and gives great insight into Barack Obama as a human being. Obama's other book, Audacity of Hope, is also excellent. I think Obama did not select Hillary as his running mate because you don't get just Hillary, you get the Clintons. He didn't want Bill in the White House. Bill Clinton did just give a great speech. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 28 2008, 03:46 AM Post #1673 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Yes he did! I thought of getting the other Obama book but I just bought so many books right now that one will have to hold off. Biden and his son, also gave great speeches. Can't wait until tomorrow night! Linda, will you be going to any of the house parties to watch the speech? Been thinking about it and probably won't go but you just never know. |
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| fab4fan | Aug 28 2008, 05:09 AM Post #1674 |
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While listening to Rachel Madow on MSNBC I came across this article by a professional. DECLARATIONS By PEGGY NOONAN The Master Has Arrived August 28, 2008 Denver In the time-honored tradition of the notebook dump, some thoughts and observations on the Democratic convention so far: As for Bill Clinton's speech, halfway through I thought: The Master has arrived. Crazy Bill, the red-faced Rageaholic, was somewhere else. This was Deft Political Pro Bill doing what no one had been able to do up to this point at the convention, and that is make the case for Barack Obama. He lambasted the foe, asserted Obama's growth on the trail, argued that he was the right man for the job and did that as a man who once held that job and is remembered, at least in terms of domestic policy and at least by half the country, as having done it pretty darn well. He gave his full imprimatur to a crowd that believes he has an imprimatur to give. As Clinton spoke a friend IM'd, "What is this, the Clinton convention?" The fact is, until both Clintons spoke, it was. Now oddly enough it isn't. Now eyes turn, and finally, to Obama. This was one of the great tee-ups. The Hillary speech was the best of her career. Toward Obama she was exactly as gracious as she is capable of being. Mrs. Clinton's speeches are rarely notable for great lines but this one had a number of them. "It makes sense that George Bush and John McCain will be together next week in the Twin Cities, because these days they're awfully hard to tell apart." KAPOW. We'll be hearing more of that one. "Sisterhood of the travelling pantsuits" – funny and self aware. She normally doesn't use the teleprompter – actually it's rare for her to use one -- but last night she did, and she proved herself the most gifted pol on the prompter in current political history. Her statement from the floor during the rollcall? Fabulous. The decision to put Obama over the top and ask for acclamation? Masterly. Mrs. Clinton's actions this week have been pivotal not only for Obama, but for her. She showed herself capable of appearing to put party first. I also believe she has come to appreciate both emotionally and intellectually The Importance of Being Teddy. She will not be the president of the United States the next four years, but she can ease herself into the role of Teddy Kennedy-esque fighter for her issues in the Senate. And that I think is exactly where she means to go, and what she means to be. And that, for her, is a brilliant move. Really: brilliant. Here's one reason: Teddy is, throughout his party, beloved. Beloved would be something very new for Hillary. * * * The general thinking among thinking journalists, as opposed to journalists who merely follow the journalistic line of the day, is that the change of venue Thursday night to Invesco Field, and the huge, open air Obama acceptance speech is…one of the biggest and possibly craziest gambles of this or any other presidential campaign of the modern era. Everyone can define what can go wrong, and no one can quite define what "great move" would look like. It has every possibility of looking like a Nuremberg rally; it has too many variables to guarantee a good tv picture; the set, the Athenian columns, looks hokey; big crowds can get in the way of subtle oratory. My own added thought is that speeches are delicate; they're words in the air, and when you've got a ceiling the words can sort of go up to that ceiling and come back down again. But words said into an open air stadium…can just get lost in echoes, and misheard phrases. People working the technical end of the event are talking about poor coordination, unclear planning, and a Democratic National Committee that just doesn't seem capable of decisive and sophisticated thinking. So: this all does seem very much a gamble. At a Time magazine event Wednesday afternoon, Obama campaign manager David Plouffe suggested the power of the stadium event is in this: it's meant to be a metaphor for the openness and inclusiveness that has marked the Obama campaign. Open stadium, 60,000 people – "we're opening this up to average Americans." We'll see. In my experience when political professionals start talking metaphors there's usually good reason to get nervous. (Questions: how many of the 60,000 will be Coloradans? Are a lot of the tickets going to out of staters? Are they paying for tickets? Is the Mile High event actually a fundraiser? What's the top ticket going for?) *** More on Plouffe. Here are things he said. "It's gonna be a close election. If anything breaks it will break late." "There are 18 states we're focusing on." McCain has a woman problem because "if he's elected, Roe versus Wade will be outlawed." McCain's campaign has an "intensity deficit." "One thing we never run into out there is a John McCain field organization." If McCain's vice presidential nominee is Mitt Romney, "They're doubling down on out-of-touch." Plouffe talked a lot about increasing the turnout of registered voters who did not vote in 2004. He spoke a lot about winning or losing various states on the margins. This elicited a rather piercing question from Mike Murphy. He said that in his experience as a political strategist, when the talk turns to things like winning states by upping the share of registered voters who missed the last election, that talk is usually indicative of a message deficit. Plouffe didn't really have an answer. *** We all tend to see this campaign as the endless campaign. It started right after the '06 election, was in full gear in '07, has reached party resolutions the past few months, and now the general election is off and going. But Plouffe said something that reminded me the endless campaign is nearing its ending. A lot of people start voting in 40 days, with absentee ballots. Forty days! This thing really is going to end. *** Michelle Obama's speech was solid, but not a home run. First impression: She is so beautiful. Beautifully dressed, beautifully groomed, confident, smiling, a compelling person. But her speech seemed to me more the speech of a candidate, and not a candidate's spouse. It was full of problems and issues. I continue to be of the Dennis Thatcher School of Political Spouses: Let the candidate do the seriousness of the issues, you do the excellence of the candidate. This is old fashioned but nonetheless I think still applicable. It has made Laura Bush (with a few forays into relatively anodyne policy questions) the most popular First Lady in modern American political history. Another problem with the Michelle speech. In order to paint both her professional life and her husband's, and in order to communicate what she feels is his singular compassion, she had to paint an America that is darker, sadder, grimmer, than most Americans experience their country to be. And this of course is an incomplete picture, an incorrectly weighted picture. Sadness and struggle are part of life, but so are guts and verve and achievement and success and hardiness and…triumph. Democrats always get this wrong. Republicans get it wrong too, but in a different way. Democrats in the end speak most of, and seem to hold the most sympathy for, the beset-upon single mother without medical coverage for her children, and the soldier back from the war who needs more help with post-traumatic stress disorder. They express the most sympathy for the needy, the yearning, the marginalized and unwell. For those, in short, who need more help from the government, meaning from the government's treasury, meaning the money got from taxpayers. Who happen, also, to be a generally beset-upon group. Democrats show little expressed sympathy for those who work to make the money the government taxes to help the beset-upon mother and the soldier and the kids. They express little sympathy for the middle-aged woman who owns a small dry cleaner and employs six people and is, actually, day to day, stressed and depressed from the burden of state, local and federal taxes, and regulations, and lawsuits, and meetings with the accountant, and complaints as to insufficient or incorrect efforts to meet guidelines regarding various employee/employer rules and regulations. At Republican conventions they express sympathy for this woman, as they do for those who are entrepreneurial, who start businesses and create jobs and build things. Republicans have, that is, sympathy for taxpayers. But they don't dwell all that much, or show much expressed sympathy for, the sick mother with the uninsured kids, and the soldier with the shot nerves. Neither party ever gets it quite right, the balance between the taxed and the needy, the suffering of one sort and the suffering of another. You might say that in this both parties are equally cold and equally warm, only to two different classes of citizens. *** By the way, the best line of the convention so far? Ted Strickland of Ohio, when he echoed the 1988 Democratic convention joke about George H.W. Bush, that he was born on third and thought he hit a triple. Strickland said of George W. Bush that he was born on third and then stole second. It didn't get much attention in any of the commentary, but it's all people were talking about in the bars of Denver that night. I'll end with Ted Kennedy's speech. It was a small masterpiece of generosity. Not only that he showed up, not only that he spoke, but that with every right to speak of himself and his career, with every right to speak about his family and his memories and the lessons he's learned and the great things he's seen, with all the right to dwell on those things he produced: a speech about Barack Obama. Telling America to vote for him. How classy was that? Very. |
| Mnisthiti mou Kurie! | |
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| beatlechick | Aug 28 2008, 06:28 AM Post #1675 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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For the most part I applaud this article. I felt that Michelle's speech was a speech to paint a picture of who Obama is, what he is like, and what he stands for. I am eager for Obama's speech. I have his 2004 speech at the DNC on audio. That is where I thought this man could be our President. |
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| MannyDavvi | Aug 28 2008, 09:04 AM Post #1676 |
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The way I see all of this, which one do you want, the puppet on the right or the puppet on the left? |
| <a href='http://eapr-1/@0@Manny@1@Where%20Jojo%20used%20to%20live@' target='_blank'></a> | |
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| maccascruff | Aug 28 2008, 12:53 PM Post #1677 |
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Sing the Changes
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No, I decided against the house parties. Want to watch it from my own home. The article is wrong when it asks what price the tickets are going for. Supposedly, the kind of security that it took to pick up the tickets and activate them and the security that will be necessary today means that the rightful ticketholder will be in the seats tonight. I am soooooo jealous of those people. I won't be voting for a puppet. I will be voting for someone that I truly believe in. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 28 2008, 10:53 PM Post #1678 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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I don't believe in puppets, except to play with! I did hear that some of the free tickets were selling for $500 and some were being sold on ebay before the seller actually had the tickets in hand. |
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| maccascruff | Aug 29 2008, 12:41 AM Post #1679 |
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Sing the Changes
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People with blackberrys, etc. are sending messages to the CO for Obama group saying that the tickets were not being sold while in the 6 mile security line. eBay and Craig's list had agreed with the campaign to pull any listings of sales. People said you had to show your ID and they ran your driver's license for violent crimes. If you had one, no ticket. Your name is printed on the ticket. Tonight those photo IDs that were showed when the tickets were picked up have to be shown again. I also think that security will actually be checking the photo to the face on the photo ID. I can hardly wait to hear Obama. I am so excited!!!! |
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| beatlechick | Aug 29 2008, 01:01 AM Post #1680 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Gore is giving a very good speech. One wonders what this world would really be like if he had been really elected and not selected like our LAME duck President was. LET THE SUNSHINE, LET THE SUNSHINE IN, THE SUNSHINE IN!!! |
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| maccascruff | Aug 29 2008, 01:05 AM Post #1681 |
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Sing the Changes
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CNN is saying that the Obama campaign issued about 20,000 more tickets that the stadium holds. The fire marshal is there and they are trying to figure out where to put all the people. I was p*ssed when I didn't get a ticket. I'd be even more p*ssed if I got a ticket, stood in line and got turned away! |
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| Samwise | Aug 29 2008, 03:48 AM Post #1682 |
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![]() Ladies & Gentlemen, the Next President of the United States of America. |
![]() My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair! | |
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| beatlechick | Aug 29 2008, 04:23 AM Post #1683 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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I LOVE IT!!!! Even some of the Republican speech writers are saying it was a Masterpiece of a speech! I texted friends that today I am very proud and happy to be an American! I love my country but there have been moments that I questioned the wisdom and knowledge of some of its' leaders! Tonight was just f*cking awesome! I hope that I am this happy, if not happier, come Nov. 5th! |
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| maccascruff | Aug 29 2008, 12:58 PM Post #1684 |
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Sing the Changes
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Love that picture of the next president of the United States. I will be wearing my Obama gear to work on November 5. |
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| Bill | Aug 29 2008, 03:58 PM Post #1685 |
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McCain picks Sarah Palin http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/29/palin.republican.vp.candidate/index.html Another smart choice. It addresses the need for generational change and the notion that Republicans are all old, white men and conveniently, she doesn't have too much of a record to scrutinise. Good timing too, to try and steal some of the attention away from Obama's speech Edited by Bill, Aug 29 2008, 04:05 PM.
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| Put a puppet on it. | |
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| Samwise | Aug 29 2008, 04:46 PM Post #1686 |
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Yes, and good political positioning to highlight the fact that Barack Obama didn't choose a woman (one woman in particular) as his running mate. Ms. Palin has minimal experience - one-and-a-half years as governor of the nation's 47th most populous state - and what little experience she does have includes a recent Bushian scandal over the politically- and revenge-motivated firing of an Alaska official. Intriguing that McCain would put somebody so inexperienced on his ticket, one heartbeat away from the Presidency, when inexperience seems to be his primary critique of Obama. |
![]() My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair! | |
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| Bill | Aug 29 2008, 04:50 PM Post #1687 |
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No-one ever accused Republican campaigns of being self-aware. |
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| Samwise | Aug 29 2008, 04:54 PM Post #1688 |
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Or Republican VP nominees of knowing what their job entails. Palin from an interview on CNBC's Kudlow & Co. last month: "As for that V.P. talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day? I’m used to being very productive and working real hard in an administration. We want to make sure that that V.P .slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we’re trying to accomplish up here for the rest of the U.S., before I can even start addressing that question." Hey, the Vice President works very hard - I mean, just look at Dick Cheney. It can't be easy trying to dismantle the Constitution article by article. |
![]() My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair! | |
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| Bill | Aug 29 2008, 05:06 PM Post #1689 |
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McCain did make it clear that he believes in the traditional role of VP, which is to break deadlocks in the Senate and enquire daily about the health of the president. But then, he's recanted on so many principles he's expressed previously that you have to wonder. |
| Put a puppet on it. | |
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| Monkey Chow | Aug 29 2008, 06:53 PM Post #1690 |
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beep beep m beep beep yeah
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Actually, the VP doesn't do much unless the Pres dies. Technically, the VP presides over the Senate and votes on tie breakers. Doesn't happen that often. |
| Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey. | |
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| maccascruff | Aug 30 2008, 12:56 AM Post #1691 |
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Sing the Changes
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god forbid if this ticket wins. I will have to move to Canada. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/van-jones/palin-youre-no-hillary-cl_b_122479.html |
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| maccascruff | Aug 30 2008, 01:01 AM Post #1692 |
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Sing the Changes
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Sarah Palin, formerly the Mayor of a town of 6500 that was worried about growth to 8000 1992-2000 and whether they had enough snow for the Iditarod , lost in a Lt Governor bid in 2002. Won Governor taking on nepatism in AK Gov race, was previously a sports reporter with a journalism degree and former beauty queen runnter up that got her a scholarship to U of Idaho. She is embroiled in a state scandal which it is being substantiated the recently terminated Head of the State Public Safety Dept (State Police) appointed by Palin was recorded on a phone call stating that the Palin's didn't know why Wooten (their former brother in law had not been fired as a State Policeman yet. The problem was a custody battle over their niece. Sarah Palin an avowed creationist who believes creationism should be taught in the public schools as science and does not beilive in Global Warming is supposed to be the criteria for succeeding the President in case of an emergency? So the her choice, McCain, with one stroke, undercuts the best argument of his campaign: Obama's purported lack of experience for the job. But there's another part of this. Andrew Sullivan captures it .. http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/a-harriet-miers.html "Could this be McCain's Miers moment? Some readers think so: the point at which people suddenly realize that McCain is actually less interested in governing than in politics. And willing to let personal liking and respect for utterly unqualified people trump the sober responsibilities of running a country at war, a climate in flux, an economy in trouble, and an empire close to imploding. One more thing: this was a bit of a F-U pick, a personal, totally idiosyncratic, gut-level, aggressive piece of opportunism. Yes he can! And yes, it does underline his maverick, out-of-the-box brand. It makes me like his empathy for gutsy young women, even former beauty queens (is there footage of her contest out there?). But it also makes me less comfortable with the idea of him as commander in chief. It seems a less steady choice than Biden." |
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| maccascruff | Aug 30 2008, 01:03 AM Post #1693 |
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Sing the Changes
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This was forwarded to me: As an Alaskan, I am writing to give all of you some information on Sarah Palin, Senator McCain's choice for VP. As an Alaska voter, I know more than most of you about her and, frankly, I am horrified that he picked her. The most accurate description of her is red neck. Her husband works in the oil fields of Prudhoe Bay and races snow mobiles. She is a life time member of the NRA and has worked tirelessly to allow indiscriminate hunting of wildlife in Alaska, particularly wolves and bears. She has spent millions of Alaska state dollars on aerial hunting of these predators from helicopters and airplanes, doll ars that should have been spent, for example, on Alaska's failing school system.We have the lowest rate of high school graduation in the country. Not all of you may think aerial predator hunting is so bad, but how anyone (other than Alaska wolf-haters, of which there are many, most without teeth), could think this use of funds is appropriate is beyond me. If you want to know more about the aerial hunting travesty, let me know and I will send some links to informative web sites. She has been a strong supporter of increased use of fossil fuels, yet the McCain campaign has the nerve to say she has "green" policies. The only thing green about Sarah Palin is her lack of experience. She has consistently supported drilling in ANWR, use of coal -burning power plants (as I write this, a new coal plant is being built in her home town of Wasilla), strip mining, and almost anything else that will unnecessarily exploit the diminishing resources of Alaska and destroy its environment. Prior to her one year as governor of Alaska, she was mayor of Wasilla, a smal l red neck town outside Anchorage.The average maximum education level of parents of junior high school kids in Wasilla is 10th grade. Unfortunately, I have to go to Wasilla every week to get groceries and other supplies, so I have continual contact with the people who put Palin in office in the first place. I know what I'm talking about. These people don't have a concept of the world around them or of the serious issues facing the US. Furthermore, they don't care. So long as they can go out and hunt their moose every fall, kill wolves and bears and drive their snow mobiles and ATVs through every corner of the wilderness, they're happy. I wish I were exaggerating. Sarah Palin is currently involved in a political corruption scandal. She fired an individual in law enforcement here because she didn't like how he treated one of her relatives during a divorce. The man's performance and ability weren't considered; it was a totally personal firing and is currently under investigation. While the issue isn't close to the scandal of Ted Steven's corruption, it shows that Palin isn't "squeaky clean" and causes me to think there ay be more issues that could come to light. Clearly McCain doesn't care. When you line Palin up with Biden, the comparison would be laughable if it weren't so serious. Sarah Palin knows nothing of economics (admittedly a weak area for McCain), or of international affairs, knows nothing of national government, Social Security, unemployment, health care systems - you name it. The idea of her meeting with heads of foreign governments around the world truly frightens me. In an increasingly dangerous world, with the economy in shambles in the US, Sarah Palin is uniquely UNqualified to be vice president. John McCain is not a young man. Should something happen to him such that the vice president had to step in, it would destroy our country and possibly the world to have someone as inexperienced and inappropriate as Sarah Palin. The choice of Palin is a cheap shot by McCain to try to get Hillary supporters to vote for him. when McCain introduced her today, Palin had the nerve to compare herself with Hillary and Geraldine Ferraro. Sarah Palin, you are no Hillary Clinton. |
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| maccascruff | Aug 30 2008, 01:05 AM Post #1694 |
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Sing the Changes
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For text on Palin's ethics problem (TrooperGate): see: http://rogermaynard.net Be sure to click on the cartoon to see it all. Palin's Lt.Gov. Sean Parnell has challenged Don Young with Palin's support. The race for this seat in the House of Representatives may not be called for weeks. Her Lt. Gov. Sean Parnell manipulated the wording on the ballot initiatives in last week's primary (and did not provide advance notice of this wording in the pamphlet distributed to all Alaskans supposedly informing us of these issues). Transparency and ethics: NOT! Sarah Palin and Sean Parnell support: aerial hunting of wolves, bears, and wolverines Do NOT support: Clean Elections (public funding of elections) Do NOT support: Clean Water Do support: Big oil (Her husband works for British Petroleum) Mining (Idaho connections): Couer d'Alene, Kensington Mine near Juneau (advanced without proper permitting, disregard of water quality concerns), Proposed Pebble Mine (open pit/acid leach/huge) near Bristol Bay that threatens clean water and healthy fisheries in Bristol Bay I suspect she was approved by Dick Cheney and has agreed to let him call the shots--after she gets elected--presenting herself as a reformer in the meantime. NOT Schwartzenegger has endorsed her already. She's about big oil money and social conservative issues. She's NOT an advocate for women's issues, for universal health care, for choice, for clean air, clean water, clean elections. We don't want her selecting Supreme Court justices or naming people to the Department of Interior. |
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| mspeel 007 | Aug 30 2008, 01:33 AM Post #1695 |
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OBAMA in 2008!!!!!!
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| [AND IN THE END.....THE LOVE YOU TAKE...IS EQUAL TO THE LOVE YOU MAKE | |
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| Bill | Aug 30 2008, 01:40 AM Post #1696 |
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Obviously I spoke too soon.
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| Put a puppet on it. | |
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| Deleted User | Aug 30 2008, 02:41 AM Post #1697 |
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Deleted User
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Her Bio is almost identical to Hillary's...
Sarah Louise Heath Palin, born February 11, 1964, is the governor of Alaska, and the presumptive Republican vice presidential nominee for the 2008 United States presidential election. ![]() Palin was elected governor in 2006 after defeating incumbent governor Frank Murkowski in the Republican primary and former Democratic governor Tony Knowles in the general election. She was the youngest person, and the first woman, to be elected governor of Alaska. She gained attention for publicizing ethical violations by state Republican Party leaders. Before becoming governor, Palin served two terms on the Wasilla, Alaska (population 5,470), City Council from 1992 to 1996, was elected and re-elected mayor of Wasilla for two three-year terms in 1996 and 1999. She also ran unsuccessfully for lieutenant governor in 2002. Palin holds a bachelor of arts degree in journalism from the University of Idaho. ![]() Palin was born Sarah Louise Heath in Sandpoint, Idaho, the daughter of Sarah (née Sheeran), a school secretary, and Charles R. Heath, a science teacher and track coach. She has English, Irish, and German ancestry. Her family moved to Alaska when she was an infant. The Heaths were avid outdoors enthusiasts; Sarah and her father would sometimes wake at 3 a.m. to hunt moose before school, and the family regularly ran 5 km and 10 km races. ![]() At Wasilla High School in Wasilla, Alaska, Palin was the head of the school Fellowship of Christian Athletes. She was the point guard and captain for the basketball team. She helped the team win the Alaska small-school championship in 1982, hitting a critical free throw in the last seconds, despite a stress fracture in her ankle. She earned the nickname "Sarah Barracuda" because of her intense play, and was the leader of team prayer before games. ![]() ![]() In 1984, Palin won the Miss Wasilla contest earlier, then finished second in the Miss Alaska beauty pageant, which won her a scholarship to help pay her way through college. In the Wasilla pageant, she played the flute and also won Miss Congeniality. Palin holds a bachelor's degree in journalism from the University of Idaho, where she also minored in political science. She married Todd Palin, her boyfriend since high school, on August 29, 1988. She then briefly worked as a sports reporter for local Anchorage television stations while also working as a commercial fisherwoman with her husband. ![]() In May 2008, Palin objected to the decision of Dirk Kempthorne, the Republican United States Secretary of the Interior, to list polar bears as an endangered species, at the time threatening a lawsuit to stop the naming. Palin is pro-life, pro-contraception, and a prominent member of Feminists for Life. While running for Governor of Alaska, Palin supported the teaching of creationism alongside evolution in schools; however, she noted she would not use "religion as a litmus test, or anybody's personal opinion on evolution or creationism" as criteria for selection to the school board. As of August 29, 2008, Palin is being investigated by an independent investigator hired by the legislature to determine whether she abused her power when she fired Public Safety Commissioner Walter Monegan. On July 11, 2008, Palin dismissed Monegan and instead offered him a position as executive director of the state Alcoholic Beverage Control Board, which he turned down. Her power to fire him is not in dispute. But Monegan alleged that his dismissal may have been an abuse of power tied to his reluctance to fire Palin's former brother-in law, an Alaska State Trooper, Mike Wooten. In 2006, before Palin was governor, Wooten was suspended for 10 days for threatening to kill McCann's (and Palin's) father, tasering his 11-year-old stepson, drinking beer in his squad car, and violating game laws. After a union protest, the suspension was reduced to five days. Incidentally, Wooten had been involved in a divorce and child custody battle with Palin's sister, Molly McCann. Palin replaced Monegan with Chuck Kopp, who, as she knew, had previously been removed from supervision while he was investigated for and cleared of sexual harrassment of an employee. Palin said that her dismissal of Monegan was unrelated to the fact that he had not fired Wooten, and said that Monegan was instead dismissed for not adequately filling state trooper vacancies, and because he "did not turn out to be a team player on budgeting issues. "Monegan claims that the two most-recent trooper graduating classes had the most recruits in years, and that Palin stated the audit Monegan provided made the administration look like it did not support the troopers. Palin acknowledged that there were a number of calls from her office on the matter, and that in one of these Frank Bailey, a member of her administration, mentioned "a family tie with the Governor there" and said "we don't know why this guy is still working." Both Palin and Bailey say that happened without her knowledge and was unrelated to her dismissal of Monegan, and Bailey was put on leave for two months for acting outside the scope of his authority as the Director of Boards and Commissions. Commissioner Monegan received no severance pay, though at the same time another dismissed Commissioner, Charles Kopp (who served only 11 days) received $10,000. In August 2008, the Alaska Legislature hired Steve Branchflower to investigate Palin and her staff for possible abuse of power surrounding the dismissal. Democratic State Senator Hollis French, who is overseeing the investigation, says that the Palin administration has been cooperating and that subpoenas are unnecessary. The Palin administration itself was the first to release an audiotape of Bailey making inquiries about the status of the Wooten investigation. Palin later admitted that members of her staff had made about two dozen contacts with public safety officials about the trooper, including at least one conversation that could appear to be an attempt to pressure the commissioner. She said that her staff's contacts with the commission were not directed by her and she had little knowledge of them. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 30 2008, 02:54 AM Post #1698 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Or original. It was something like 20 years ago when the first woman was selected to one for the VP spot. That was Geraldine Ferraro who ran with Walter Mondale on the Democrat side. For Mrs. Palin to state that Hillary 'cracked' the glass ceiling with 18,000,000 cracks I thought was rather ridiculous. How can you come up with 18,000,000 cracks when Hillary shattered the glass ceiling? When she invoked Hillary's name in her speech, it made me think that this was totally voters pandering to try to sway the disenfranchised Hillary supporters to come to their side. She is not Hillary, who could be, who does not believe in the right for women to choose and is a member of the NRA. Just makes me wonder if McCain will still harp (or as a radio newsreporter stated on air - bag) on Obama for his lack of experience? |
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| beatlechick | Aug 30 2008, 03:06 AM Post #1699 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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I find interesting that no one has yet stated that her 6 month old child has down syndrome. From what I heard she refused to have an abortion which is something that endears her to McCain. Lapis, I see nothing there that even compares to Hillary. Hillary may be a Senator but she was a lawyer first who happened to have been married to a President. Not much compares the two, if I am wrong please correct me. |
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| Bill | Aug 30 2008, 03:18 AM Post #1700 |
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I applaud her for the way she has raised her family but I don't see how that would make her a good VP. Her youngest child's handicap is not a relevant issue at all. |
| Put a puppet on it. | |
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Having him there and speaking is fair enough, but "Still the one," is as tired and cliched as "Four more years." It's embarrassing.
















2:01 PM Jul 11