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| 2008 U.S. Presidential Election | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 22 2007, 05:49 AM (37,431 Views) | |
| maccascruff | Aug 20 2008, 02:07 AM Post #1501 |
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Sing the Changes
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I do not want the campaign to become a one issue campaign. So far, I don't think that it has. From what I saw, I found McCain to be boring and too quick with what appeared to be a canned, easy answer. Obama is a thinker. He thinks things through and that is the way he answers questions. No surprise on either side to me. You wil never guess who Michael Moore is proposing as Obama's running mate. I do not see this happening in a million years, but he wants to see Caroline Kennedy as the vice president. Don't shoot the messenger. I said I don't think it will happen. I really think she has no interest in public office. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 20 2008, 02:33 AM Post #1502 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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So far, I don't remember all the names, but the list I saw for Obama's vp was Sen. Joe Biden, Sen. Evan Bayh (sp?), VA Governor Tim Kaine, the Governor of Kansas (sorry don't remember her name Kathleen....?) and Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico. |
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| maccascruff | Aug 21 2008, 01:02 PM Post #1503 |
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Sing the Changes
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I've seen the same names and none really excite me. I just home the Democrats don't screw up another election. They seem to be working very hard at it. Obama is now down in the polls. |
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| Queenbee | Aug 21 2008, 01:22 PM Post #1504 |
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Moderator
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I'm with you Linda. None of the names excite me. I planned on voting for Obama but I will be listening to both candidates closely. |
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PEACE and love to my friends, Judy When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace. -Sri Chinmnoy Ghose Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind. | |
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| beatlechick | Aug 22 2008, 12:34 AM Post #1505 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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I know that Jim Carville, a democratic strategist (married to a Republican strategist) for Bill Clinton and a Hillary supporter, wants Hillary as the running mate. I have never trusted this guy but I know that a lot of people feel this way.............I don't! I do like, however, Gov Richardson and kind of like Biden. Unless something drastic happens, like I die and someone steals my identity and votes for someone else, I will be voting Obama in Nov. No doubt about it!!
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| beatlechick | Aug 22 2008, 12:34 AM Post #1506 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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We will find out on Friday. I am one of those who signed up for the text message from Obama! |
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| Bill | Aug 22 2008, 12:41 AM Post #1507 |
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Who votes for the running mate? Anyone? After the Cheney years, people might be giving the VP a little too much credit. Both candidates represent a return to the VP being the loyal spare tyre, not the puppet-master. McCain's pick will be more significant because of his age. That's not me saying that, that's a lot of Republicans saying that - which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. |
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| scottycatt | Aug 22 2008, 12:42 AM Post #1508 |
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Well, speaking strictly for myself and as a member of the 18 million *disenfranchised* Hillary supporters, I would LOVE it if she were the VP nominee. I'm thinking hell will freeze over first. As for Obama?? I do think he is extremely intelligent, just not very smart, so far. He speaks much, says little.
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Why? | |
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| Bill | Aug 22 2008, 12:52 AM Post #1509 |
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If that were the case (and I don't agree that it is) how would that make him any different from Hillary? She changed her story according to what interest group she was talking to. She wanted to be Republican-lite. I honestly think that people who say Obama is short on substance aren't paying attention. He doesn't speak in bumper-sticker slogans because he understands that the world isn't that simple and gives the people credit that they understand that fact too. Aren't people sick of being spoken to as if they're children? |
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| Deleted User | Aug 22 2008, 12:59 AM Post #1510 |
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Deleted User
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Great.
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| beatlechick | Aug 22 2008, 01:01 AM Post #1511 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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I am currently listening to his audiobook of "Dreams From My Father" and all I can say is that this is the man that I fell for 4 years ago. You really get the feel of who Barack Obama is as a person and a politician. The way he talked about his mother in the beginning of the book almost made you want to cry. To hear/see what his background is like gives one a better understanding of the man he is today. I highly recommend this book. A book written many many years ago. |
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| Deleted User | Aug 22 2008, 01:03 AM Post #1512 |
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Deleted User
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I would like to have this book. I will look for it. I think Obama is a very intelligent man and I would vote for him. I dislike McCain. |
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| scottycatt | Aug 22 2008, 01:10 AM Post #1513 |
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I agree that Hillary did try to tailor her speeches according to whichever group she happened to be speaking to at the time. I think each of the candidates has been guilty of that, at one time or another. Nature of the game, I suppose. I don't discount Obama's intelligence. I still plan to vote for him. I'm just saying that he needs to start getting more specific as to his stands on the issues. He's still speaking in very broad, general, sound-good phrases and it's starting to plant seeds of doubt in the minds of many. His lead in the polls has now narrowed to around a 3% lead over McCain. Many prospective voters are expressing concern and discontent with his failure to speak in specifics. McCain *sounds* as though he's more decisive, although I certainly don't agree with much of what he has to say. Up to now, trying to pin Obama down on specifics has been much like trying to pin Jell-O to the wall. |
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Why? | |
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| beatlechick | Aug 22 2008, 01:14 AM Post #1514 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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So far that I have listened to, it is a very good book Michelle. Bill, when we vote for a President we almost have to take into consideration who the VP is going to be. If anything happens to the President, than the Vice Pres. runs the country. But I have heard some people, just today, who don't want to vote for the VP because of Cheney. They want to just have to consider who the President will be. |
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| Bill | Aug 22 2008, 01:28 AM Post #1515 |
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Bev, I understand what you're saying about McCain sounding more decisive on a superficial level. But I think it's dangerous to mistake certainty for substance. McCain does speak with a lot of certainty but many of the premises on which he based that certainty are demonstrably wrong. We can say a lot of things about Bush, but no-one can say he isn't decisive. He's also been wrong about almost everything. Something the last eight years have taught us is that it's better to have a thinker than someone who is decisive but wrong. One more factor: Whoever wins, they will discover next year that the Bush incompetence that we know about now is just the tip of the iceberg. That's just my prediction based on the balance of probabilities - people can throw it back at me if I'm wrong. The next administration is going to discover all kinds of problems when they see the real books, and Americans have to decide who is intelligent and flexible to deal with those problems without completely welching on their campaign promises. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 22 2008, 01:30 AM Post #1516 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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I don't agree with that. He does state who he is and what he is for. He is not for offshore drilling but will consent to it under certain specifications. As for abortion, he is like me and a good deal of us here as he is against it but will not legislate that a woman can not have it. Furthermore, he has not insulted California and any of its' green initiatives that Ahhnie has proposed, such as no offshore drilling which McCain made fun of at the Civil Forum. Yes McCain is decisively speaking, he is saying what his base wants to hear. McCain's numbers went up because Obama was on vacation, something McCain criticized the Senate and Congress for (which until this year he had no problem with in the previous 25 yrs) and because of his pat answers at the civil forum. BTW, where the civil forum was held (and not because of the evangelist Mega-Church) in Orange County California, is a bastion of a conservative Republican base. Had this forum taken place in Los Angeles, you would've seen a different response. I expect Obama's numbers to go up after the convention as will McCain's after the Republican convention. As a whole, I do not go by the poll numbers. I remember in the 1968 presidential election between Vice President Hubert Humphrey and Richard Nixon, polls up to nearly election day showed Humphrey as the winner. As most of us know, that did not happen. |
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| scottycatt | Aug 22 2008, 01:31 AM Post #1517 |
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Bill, for the record, you're preaching to the choir. McCain??? The Decider, part II???
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Why? | |
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| Bill | Aug 22 2008, 01:37 AM Post #1518 |
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Is that a nice way of saying I can shut up now?
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| scottycatt | Aug 22 2008, 01:37 AM Post #1519 |
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Cathy, the most recent polls were not tied to the aftermath of the appearance at Saddleback. I think the Democrats would be wise to take a long, hard look at what is driving these poll numbers. Obama may have given specifics on a few issues, but he still has much work to do in this area if he wants to convince voters who still haven't made up their minds with regard to who they'll ultimately vote for. I want to make certain that Democrats don't become complacent and assume that Obama will win. I also want Obama not to make that same assumption. I think that for awhile, anyway, he acted as though he were already sitting in the White House. Not the right image to project for someone who only has a 3% lead in the polls. And yes, I know these numbers will continue to go back and forth between now and November, but it's such a slim margin, that we need to proceed with the same fervor and urgency that was on display during the primaries. Btw, I've signed up to do volunteer duty at the local Democratic office. I'm supposed to go in this week to start making phone calls to "get out the vote".
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Why? | |
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| beatlechick | Aug 22 2008, 01:39 AM Post #1520 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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You're certainly not wrong with that. The next President will have to figure out a way to get the US out of the slump we are in. Once they figure that out, the rest will be a piece of cake. Unfortunately it took less than 8 years to get the US in this bad a shape, it will take longer to get it back into shape. They will inherit a major budget deficit, a populace who's lives are being foreclosed upon, a war we shouldn't have started, a war we should've paid more attention to, a once Super Nation trying to flex their power on a weaker nation, skyrocketing worldwide oil prices without Presidential thought to alternative forms (okay.....no thought to it), skyrocketing worldwide food prices, and a higher unemployment rate. Is there anything I forgot? Oh yeah! A much lower US worldwide credibility rate!
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| scottycatt | Aug 22 2008, 01:39 AM Post #1521 |
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I would never say that to you, you silver-tongued devil, you. To quote JWL from A Hard Day's Night, "I could listen to him for hours."
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Why? | |
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| beatlechick | Aug 22 2008, 01:49 AM Post #1522 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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I've done the electioneering going door to door, precinct walking. It was fun. Unfortunately for what happened to today at one of the McCain hdqrters, it wasn't so much fun for them. Death threats and a white powder sent to them. Not good! The current numbers ARE from the Saddleback forum as well as Obama being on vacation. As I say, I don't take much stock in numbers. People can say anything they want yet mean completely different in any other given moment. Dumbass's poll numbers 4 years ago were not all that great yet he won the Presidency for a 2nd time. When Obama was running against Hillary, Hillary did this too, he did put himself in the White House. That is what Presidential candidates do. All of them. McCain is still doing it today. |
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| scottycatt | Aug 22 2008, 01:53 AM Post #1523 |
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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've just been disappointed lately in Obama. And the poll I saw was not tied to the Saddleback appearance, just for the record.
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Why? | |
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| Bill | Aug 22 2008, 01:54 AM Post #1524 |
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Not only that, but if Obama wins, every Republican hack will suddenly wake up to what a state their country is in and blame it all on Obama after his first week. |
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| Bill | Aug 22 2008, 01:56 AM Post #1525 |
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It's alright for McCain, he got the questions in advance. He wasn't in the building for the start of the forum - everyone admits that. Anyone who thinks they didn't have people monitoring the broadcast and feeding them information about what was happening is naive in the extreme. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 22 2008, 01:56 AM Post #1526 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Poll bumps always come after a debate, forum, conventions, and announcements. People hear what they want to hear from a candidate on these. Only problem was, McCain was campaigning throughout the forum, Obama didn't do it as much. He was more off the cuff and less pat. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 22 2008, 01:59 AM Post #1527 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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He did acknowledge that statement but has gone on record as saying he did not have the radio on in the limo. BTW, today he was asked how many houses he owns. He said he would have to refer that over to his staff. Said he wasn't sure but thought it might be 4. Obama's camp says it's 7. We shall see how many he owns. |
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| Bill | Aug 22 2008, 02:03 AM Post #1528 |
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I'm sure he didn't have the radio on. Who would need it if you can have other, deniable staff watching and relaying the questions by mobile phone. Do they really think we're all so simple as to believe that turning the radio off makes him incommunicado? |
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| Bill | Aug 22 2008, 02:04 AM Post #1529 |
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Oh, that's priceless! He's not sure how many homes he owns so he's going to have his staff look into it..... and Obama is the elitist??? |
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| beatlechick | Aug 22 2008, 02:27 AM Post #1530 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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I heard the interview with McCain about his houses but can not find it. McCain housing question Obama pounces as McCain unsure of how many homes he owns Story Highlights NEW: Sen. John McCain has trouble saying how many homes he owns NEW: Sen. Barack Obama jumps on McCain's remarks on houses Obama camp rolls out TV ad painting McCain as out of touch on economy Obama's lead in CNN "poll of polls" is 1 percentage point (CNN) -- Sen. Barack Obama's campaign used a new attack ad Thursday to pound Sen. John McCain for his failure to answer a question about how many homes he owns. The Democratic candidate hammered home the same point on the campaign trail in Virginia as the McCain camp battled back. "Somebody asked John McCain, 'How many houses do you have?' and he said, 'I'm not sure, I'll have to check with my staff,' " Obama said Thursday in Virginia. "True quote. 'I'm not sure, I'll have to check with my staff.' So they asked his staff and he said, 'At least four.' " Obama was referring to McCain's comments in an interview for the Politico Web site. "I think -- I'll have my staff get to you," McCain told Politico. "It's condominiums where -- I'll have them get to you." The McCain campaign later told Politico the senator from Arizona and his wife, Cindy, own at least four homes in three states. Other news organizations have reported a higher total. Cindy McCain is heir to a beer fortune estimated at roughly $100 million. McCain faced similar criticism from Obama after remarks Saturday at the Rev. Rick Warren's faith forum in which the Republican joked that someone would need to earn $5 million a year to be defined as rich in the United States. "Now think about that -- I guess if you think that being rich means you gotta make $5 million, and if you don't know how many houses you have, then it's not surprising that you might think the economy is fundamentally strong," Obama said Thursday. "But if you're like me and you've got one house -- or you were like the millions of people who are struggling right now to keep up with their mortgage so that they don't lose their home -- you might have a different perspective." Obama said that there was a "fundamental gap of understanding" between McCain's world and "what people are going through every single day here in America." In response to Obama's attack, McCain's campaign again pressed its case that the senator from Illinois is an elitist. "Does a guy who made more than $4 million last year, just got back from vacation on a private beach in Hawaii and bought his own million-dollar mansion with the help of a convicted felon really want to get into a debate about houses?" McCain spokesman Brian Rogers said. "Does a guy who worries about the price of arugula and thinks regular people 'cling' to guns and religion in the face of economic hardship really want to have a debate about who's in touch with regular Americans?" "The reality is that Barack Obama's plans to raise taxes and opposition to producing more energy here at home as gas prices skyrocket show he's completely out of touch with the concerns of average Americans." The Obama campaign released its new ad hours after McCain's Politico comments surfaced, painting a portrait of the Republican senator as privileged and insulated from current economic woes. "Maybe you're struggling just to pay the mortgage on your home. But recently, John McCain said, 'The fundamentals of our economy are strong,' " said the announcer in the 30-second spot. "Hmm," the speaker continues skeptically as the ad flashes a picture of a house with a foreclosure sign in the front yard. "Then again, that same day, when asked how many houses he owns, McCain lost track. He couldn't remember. Well, it's seven. Seven houses," he continues. On-screen, the legend flashes: "It's seven. Worth $13 million." The White House appears on-screen as the announcer concludes: "And here's one house America can't afford to let John McCain move into." The ad is Obama's fifth negative spot in two days. The campaign said it will run on national cable television. Here is the video that goes with it: Obama campaign ad Here is the McCain campaign's retort: McCain's answer Edited by beatlechick, Aug 22 2008, 02:35 AM.
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| maccascruff | Aug 22 2008, 02:31 AM Post #1531 |
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Sing the Changes
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Exactly, Bill. I can't imagine owning so many houses that I have to have my staff look into it. Obama did hit hard on that one while on the trail. I wonder if McCain even knows if where he is sleeping at night belongs to him. In my Colorado for Obama group, they are pointing out that Cindy runs the family affairs and his staff provides the answers to the questions, so what does McCain himself do. There is now a flip flop site out there, too. Pretty interesting stuff. |
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| scottycatt | Aug 22 2008, 02:31 AM Post #1532 |
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Another interesting story about the McCains, specifically Cindy. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/20/cindy-mccain-has-another_n_120033.html |
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| scottycatt | Aug 22 2008, 02:35 AM Post #1533 |
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/21/mccain-doesnt-know-how-ma_n_120322.html According to sources in this article, the number of houses owned by the McCains is 10. |
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| maccascruff | Aug 22 2008, 02:39 AM Post #1534 |
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Sing the Changes
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10! No wonder he can't remember how many he owns. That article lists them, too. He obviously has no idea of the struggles of everyday people. Obama has one home. |
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| scottycatt | Aug 23 2008, 01:46 AM Post #1535 |
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So, after all the drama and endless speculation over the past couple of days, the Obama campaign has just officially announced that the choice of Barack's running mate will be made tomorrow (Saturday) morning. They plan on sending a text message to all who have registered with their campaign website. I'll just watch it on CNN. Rumors are rampant that the choice will be Senator Joe Biden of Delaware. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 23 2008, 02:03 AM Post #1536 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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I'm one of those that have signed up for the text message. That may come either late tonight or early tomorrow morning. They are doing it by area code. |
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| Bill | Aug 23 2008, 03:02 AM Post #1537 |
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Susan Eisenhower quits the Republican party, and says why: http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=19618
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| Samwise | Aug 23 2008, 05:16 AM Post #1538 |
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CNN is reporting that Barack Obama has chosen Sen. Joe Biden as his running mate |
![]() My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair! | |
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| beatlechick | Aug 23 2008, 05:16 AM Post #1539 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Just got a text message from CNN stating that they have confirmed that Sen Joe Biden is Barack Obama's running mate. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 23 2008, 05:20 AM Post #1540 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Wow, this says a lot. I know that many people, from the Dems or Repubs, have become either Independent or Libertarian for similar reasons. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Aug 23 2008, 06:27 AM Post #1541 |
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MaccaMomma
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Why? |
![]() One sweet dream came true....London & Liverpool '08 | |
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| Bag O' Nails | Aug 23 2008, 06:33 AM Post #1542 |
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MaccaMomma
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Just curious....why do we really care how many houses he owns?
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| Bill | Aug 23 2008, 06:37 AM Post #1543 |
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Biden is a smart choice. The punditocracy have been harping on about having to choose someone who is different to Obama in some kind of yin-yang deal. Obama has been wise to ignore them and choose someone who shares his own vision. Not only that, but Biden is well known, but not too much so. He's not damaged goods and he's not someone who would seek to be co-president rather than vice president. What happens next: Hillary supporters will cry foul and pledge again to vote for McCain but it won't happen. The fact is, Hillary would lose him more votes in the general than she would win for him. A cabinet post is more likely. The right wing will bleat about how he should have chosen someone more conservative, not that they would have voted for him anyway. Democrats will have to stop referring to McCain and the silver-haired old white guy, for obvious reasons. |
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| Bill | Aug 23 2008, 06:40 AM Post #1544 |
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Isn't it obvious? The Republicans have been labelling Obama as an elitist when their guy doesn't even know how many homes he owns. So who is the elitist? It goes directly to the heart of whether he understands what life is like for ordinary people - a question Republicans have been keen to raise about Obama. It's not just the actual number of homes he owns but the fact that he doesn't even know himself and needs his staff to look into it for him, like he'd never wondered about it himself. If this is the casual attitude he takes with regard to his own finances, how is he going to manage the largest economy in the world? The amount of assets one owns is a simple fact. It's not some subjective, untestable, personal belief like when life begins. Do I detect some double standards here?
Edited by Bill, Aug 23 2008, 06:43 AM.
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| beatlechick | Aug 23 2008, 06:50 AM Post #1545 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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One would hope that this happens. He did try to make a run for the Presidency this year himself and also stated that Obama is to inexperienced. |
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| Bill | Aug 23 2008, 06:56 AM Post #1546 |
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They're all mature enough to know that what's said in the primaries stays in the primaries and that at heart, they're on the same side. You should see some of the things Bush and McCain said about each other in 2000. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 23 2008, 06:58 AM Post #1547 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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If the shoe were on the other foot, you know damn well the McCain camp would be all over it. Yes, we do care how many homes he owns. I just inherited a house neither my brother nor I can afford to keep. The house I currently live in with my boyfriend, unless he decides to sell it, I will likely inherit too. I still can't afford it. Do I begrudge him owning those homes? Hell no! By the same token he has no reason to call anyone elitest. I am listening to Obama's book Dreams From my Father and that man has had some pretty good struggles as I know McCain has had, too. Neither of them had riches growing up. For McCain to call Obama an elitest just doesn't bode very well, especially in the light of his owning 7-10 homes to Obama's 1! |
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| beatlechick | Aug 23 2008, 06:59 AM Post #1548 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Yes, Bill, I remember. Seemed that McCain got along as well as Cain and Abel! |
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| Bill | Aug 23 2008, 07:02 AM Post #1549 |
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Maybe it's only "elitists" who have a handle on the assets they own, and regular Joes just get their staff to look into it. I should make one things clear, and going back over my posts on this thread will bear this out. It gives me no joy to see McCain making a dick of himself like this. I said all along that an Obama/McCain race was my dream and that I would be happy with either. I've been greatly disappointed in McCain's behaviour. I expected him to raise the tone of Republican campaigns and I was wrong about that. He has allowed himself to be talked into running a typically grubby campaign and that does not reflect well on his leadership qualities. I'm not naive. I know that candidates have to be flexible and have to express the values of the people they hope to represent (that would be the American people, not Republicans or Democrats). But there is a difference between political pragmatism and shameless pandering. Edited by Bill, Aug 23 2008, 07:12 AM.
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| beatlechick | Aug 23 2008, 07:17 AM Post #1550 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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Which is why I was so disappointed in his showing on the Civil Forum that was just done. That is a big Evangelist Church located in an area that has been a conservative Republican stronghold since I can remember. I thought he pandered a lot to the conservative base that was the majority of that audience. |
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| maccascruff | Aug 23 2008, 04:48 PM Post #1551 |
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Sing the Changes
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I hope I will be as optimistic about the future of the country on the Wednesday after the election as I am today. |
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| scottycatt | Aug 24 2008, 12:00 AM Post #1552 |
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Here's an interesting list of things about McCain. Let me preface this posting by saying that is is from MoveOn.org. Obviously, they have an agenda, but still. . . some of these *facts* bear pondering. 10 things you should know about John McCain (but probably don't): John McCain voted against establishing a national holiday in honor of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Now he says his position has "evolved," yet he's continued to oppose key civil rights laws.1 According to Bloomberg News, McCain is more hawkish than Bush on Iraq, Russia and China. Conservative columnist Pat Buchanan says McCain "will make Cheney look like Gandhi."2 His reputation is built on his opposition to torture, but McCain voted against a bill to ban waterboarding, and then applauded President Bush for vetoing that ban.3 McCain opposes a woman's right to choose. He said, "I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned."4 The Children's Defense Fund rated McCain as the worst senator in Congress for children. He voted against the children's health care bill last year, then defended Bush's veto of the bill.5 He's one of the richest people in a Senate filled with millionaires. The Associated Press reports he and his wife own at least eight homes! Yet McCain says the solution to the housing crisis is for people facing foreclosure to get a "second job" and skip their vacations.6 Many of McCain's fellow Republican senators say he's too reckless to be commander in chief. One Republican senator said: "The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine. He's erratic. He's hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me."7 McCain talks a lot about taking on special interests, but his campaign manager and top advisers are actually lobbyists. The government watchdog group Public Citizen says McCain has 59 lobbyists raising money for his campaign, more than any of the other presidential candidates.8 McCain has sought closer ties to the extreme religious right in recent years. The pastor McCain calls his "spiritual guide," Rod Parsley, believes America's founding mission is to destroy Islam, which he calls a "false religion." McCain sought the political support of right-wing preacher John Hagee, who believes Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment for gay rights and called the Catholic Church "the Antichrist" and a "false cult."9 He positions himself as pro-environment, but he scored a 0—yes, zero—from the League of Conservation Voters last year.10 http://pol.moveon.org/mccaintruth/ Sources: 1. "The Complicated History of John McCain and MLK Day," ABC News, April 3, 2008 http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/the-complicated.html "McCain Facts," ColorOfChange.org, April 4, 2008 http://colorofchange.org/mccain_facts/ 2. "McCain More Hawkish Than Bush on Russia, China, Iraq," Bloomberg News, March 12, 2008 http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aF28rSCtk0ZM&refer=us "Buchanan: John McCain 'Will Make Cheney Look Like Gandhi,'" ThinkProgress, February 6, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/06/buchanan-gandhi-mccain/ 3. "McCain Sides With Bush On Torture Again, Supports Veto Of Anti-Waterboarding Bill," ThinkProgress, February 20, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/20/mccain-torture-veto/ 4. "McCain says Roe v. Wade should be overturned," MSNBC, February 18, 2007 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17222147/ 5. "2007 Children's Defense Fund Action Council® Nonpartisan Congressional Scorecard," February 2008 http://www.childrensdefense.org/site/PageServer?pagename=act_learn_scorecard2007 "McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion," CNN, October 3, 2007 http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/03/mccain.interview/ 6. "Beer Executive Could Be Next First Lady," Associated Press, April 3, 2008 http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h-S1sWHm0tchtdMP5LcLywg5ZtMgD8VQ86M80 "McCain Says Bank Bailout Should End `Systemic Risk,'" Bloomberg News, March 25, 2008 http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aHMiDVYaXZFM&refer=home 7. "Will McCain's Temper Be a Liability?," Associated Press, February 16, 2008 http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=4301022 "Famed McCain temper is tamed," Boston Globe, January 27, 2008 http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/27/famed_mccain_temper_is_tamed/ 8. "Black Claims McCain's Campaign Is Above Lobbyist Influence: 'I Don't Know What The Criticism Is,'" ThinkProgress, April 2, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/02/mccain-black-lobbyist/ "McCain's Lobbyist Friends Rally 'Round Their Man," ABC News, January 29, 2008 http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4210251 9. "McCain's Spiritual Guide: Destroy Islam," Mother Jones Magazine, March 12, 2008 http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/03/john-mccain-rod-parsley-spiritual-guide.html "Will McCain Specifically 'Repudiate' Hagee's Anti-Gay Comments?," ThinkProgress, March 12, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/03/12/mccain-hagee-anti-gay/ "McCain 'Very Honored' By Support Of Pastor Preaching 'End-Time Confrontation With Iran,'" ThinkProgress, February 28, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/28/hagee-mccain-endorsement/ 10. "John McCain Gets a Zero Rating for His Environmental Record," Sierra Club, February 28, 2008 http://www.alternet.org/blogs/environment/77913/ PAID FOR BY MOVEON.ORG POLITICAL ACTION, http://pol.moveon.org/ Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee. |
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| scottycatt | Aug 24 2008, 12:08 AM Post #1553 |
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Careful, Bill, to separate "fact" from "opinion". We can't know, nor will we now ever know, whether Hillary would've lost more votes than she would've gained for the Democratic ticket. This is a topic for debate and supposition, but there's no way to quantify this. And for the record, I was (and am) a Hillary supporter, but I am not crying "foul" and I will vote for Obama. I think he won the primary fair and square. I don't think the two of them are very far apart as to their positions on most issues. I just think she was the more *ready* of the two. Just my humble opinion. Edited by scottycatt, Aug 24 2008, 12:12 AM.
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| Bill | Aug 24 2008, 01:29 AM Post #1554 |
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Fair comment. It's my prediction but one I will stand by. Hillary is a polarising character and there are a lot of people out there who would get out the vote just to vote against her no matter who else is running. I'm not saying that's a fair view of her (although she wouldn't be my first choice) but there has to be a pragmatic political choice about who will win the party votes and who won't. Ann Coulter's endorsement may have done it for her.
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| maccascruff | Aug 24 2008, 01:41 AM Post #1555 |
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Sing the Changes
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I'm glad you will be voting for Obama, Beverly. I would agree that Hillary is very polarizing. I wasn't sure if I could have voted for her--mostly because I didn't like the idea of co-president Bill. That was why I think she wasn't even vetted for VP. Obama simply didn't want Bill in the White House. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 24 2008, 01:58 AM Post #1556 |
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Linda, me too. Nice to have a feeling of a good change right now, though! Bev, McCain's opposition to the MLK holiday is one of the reasons why I second guessed our move to AZ. The same thing with the Roe v Wade opposition. I am more than happy to live in a state where we are currently allowing gays to marry and it would take a state amendment being voted on to overrule the state's decision to have abortion rights. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 24 2008, 02:00 AM Post #1557 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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I am one who also believed that Hillary would be a polarizing vote. I was happy that she ran, proves that a woman can break that glass ceiling, but in all honesty I'm not so sure I would've voted for her very happily. I, too, believe that Bill would've shared the co-presidency, though he was not a bad President. |
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| maccascruff | Aug 24 2008, 02:07 AM Post #1558 |
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Sing the Changes
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I was glad that she ran because it did show that a woman can be a viable candidate. I do think the Clintons were totally unprepared for the organization of Obama with the internet. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 24 2008, 02:21 AM Post #1559 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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This is kind of funny!! |
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| beatlechick | Aug 24 2008, 05:28 PM Post #1560 |
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Obama, McCain spar over Obama's running mate What a croc!
Now the mudslinging truly begins! I thought McCain wanted to run a clean campaign. If this were the truth, why start slinging the stones along with the mud? Forget that, why not start talking about things you know about like the amount of houses you own? Oh wait! I forgot, you forgot how many you own! Oops! My Bad!!! |
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| Bill | Aug 25 2008, 01:22 AM Post #1561 |
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All I can say is that McCain had better not pick any of his fellow Republican candidates or the hypocrisy will be complete. Of course they're mad he didn't pick Hillary - that was their last best hope. (sorry Bev )
McCain is more knowledgable on world affairs? He thinks Czechoslovakia still exists! He thinks Iraq has a border with Pakistan. Most people call that "border" IRAN! |
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| maccascruff | Aug 25 2008, 02:19 AM Post #1562 |
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Sing the Changes
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If I were a Republican, I would be totally embarrassed by the two attack ads that McCain has put out since Biden's selection was announced. Why is he using things that were said in the heat of the primary? That is the past. He has gone totally negative, which will force Obama to go negative. |
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| scottycatt | Aug 25 2008, 02:26 AM Post #1563 |
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That's OK, Bill. He should be so lucky as to have someone that smart on the ticket. I just read an interview with McCain's mom. Very interesting. She's very candid and very feisty. (The press have dubbed her the 'Even Straighter Talk Express'.) She said that, in her opinion, the media treatment given Hillary has been "just awful. She's a human being and she's certainly worked very hard." Good for her! If his mom were the one running for office, I might have to rethink my choice.
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| scottycatt | Aug 25 2008, 02:29 AM Post #1564 |
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Linda, if Barack is truly as "different" as he claims to be, he won't go negative. He's the one who ran on a platform of taking a fresh approach to politics, promising to steer clear of old-style beltway partisan politics. This is his opportunity to walk the walk.
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| Bill | Aug 25 2008, 03:18 AM Post #1565 |
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I think he's already doing that by stating categorically that John McCain is a patriotic American who is running for president for all the right reasons. I agree that nothing forces the Obama campaign to go negative. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 25 2008, 03:43 AM Post #1566 |
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Unfortunately with some of the stuff that McCain is dishing out, how else is Obama to answer. He did pretty good when Hillary and Bill were dishing some mud in his direction but the primaries are over. My thing is that McCain said he would not run a mudslinging campaign but his ads have proven way different. |
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| Bill | Aug 25 2008, 03:53 AM Post #1567 |
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He can answer with the truth - and he does. Quite a novel concept. http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/fightthesmearshome |
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| scottycatt | Aug 25 2008, 05:48 AM Post #1568 |
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Cathy, I'm old enough to remember when there were campaigns that didn't automatically devolve into an all-out mudslinging contest. Going negative doesn't require that much thought to accomplish; rebutting an argument or claim in an effective, yet honorable manner requires much more skill and intelligence. Barack has those 2 qualities in abundance. Let's hope he elects to use them.
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| wackadoo | Aug 25 2008, 10:41 PM Post #1569 |
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I think this video is interesting. If this is true, I could never, ever vote for a man like this. There is something about him that keeps me from trusting him. He doesn't salute the American flag, his wife doesn't like our country, he says he wants change but as yet, I haven't heard much of a plan to implement those changes. His experience level is limited and I don't give a damn who these arrogant Hollywood personalities are voting for because half of them have made a mess of their own lives and have no business telling me who to vote for. I like watching them entertain me....period. |
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| BeatleBarb | Aug 25 2008, 11:48 PM Post #1570 |
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As far as I know (and I am a life member of the Veterans of Foreign Affairs - VFW) there is no protocol about putting ones hand over the heart during the singing of the national anthem. This isn't the same as the Pledge of Allegiance. |
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| wackadoo | Aug 25 2008, 11:54 PM Post #1571 |
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Thanks for the correction, Barb. As a presidential candidate, isn't it wise to show respect to the country you hope to represent? Isn't that what we've been taught in school our whole life? Why would he be different than all presidents before him? |
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| BeatleBarb | Aug 26 2008, 12:00 AM Post #1572 |
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MaryAnn - do we know if the claim is substantiated? I mean, maybe he didn't intentionally refrain from putting his hand over his heart. I'm thinking there is a difference between an omission and a refusal. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Aug 26 2008, 12:30 AM Post #1573 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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With respect, Mary Ann, I think you are reading and watching all of the worst kinds of negative propaganda. Anti-abortionists are never going to agree with a politician who votes to retain a woman's right to choose and these kind of videos about fetuses born alive and left to die are blatantly exploitative, ruthlessly calculated, do not represent the whole picture of the bill supported and are meant to manipulate people's emotions. It disappoints me that you repeat such widely spread and disproved nonsense about Barack not saluting the flag or putting his hand on his heart during the pledge of allegience - as if such things actually matter - and that his wife doesn't like 'our country' (it's her country too - and she has the right to criticise the way American society has treated some of its citizens). The election is a whole lot bigger than the abortion issue although I know that it is of more importance to some people, but this 'Barack the baby-killer' video is one of the more disgusting right-wing smear tactics I've seen to date. As for Hollywood stars supporting candidates, they have a right to do so, just as you have a right to ignore them. Ask yourself this - who is behind that video? |
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| beatlechick | Aug 26 2008, 12:42 AM Post #1574 |
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I have seen him put his hand over his heart many times, okay all the time that I have seen him saluting this country. These claims are just ridiculous. Hell even McCain isn't questioning Obama's patriotism. Michelle has corrected to herself but to be honest with you, as much as I love my country, there have been times that I am truly ashamed of being an American. Having Bush, whose family has been in politics all of his life - so experience doesn't always count, as President and being questioned by other world citizens how we could elect Dumbass a second time has been a shaming experience. Being in a war that we had no right to start in the first place, is a shaming experience. The way the American gov't handled Katrina and it's aftermath has been a huge shame. There has only been one President in my lifetime that I could say would really make me proud for doing right by the US and the world, and he only did so AFTER his Presidency, and that would President Jimmy Carter. This video has an agenda. To have the Roe v Wade law overthrown and all the supporters looking like we have no heart. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 26 2008, 12:45 AM Post #1575 |
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Thank you Andy, you said it better than I. As for Hollywood Celebs, I could give a rat's ass about who they support. Most people feel the same way. No one does my thinking for me but myself. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Aug 26 2008, 01:02 AM Post #1576 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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I think you said it pretty well yourself, Cathy. There is a certain hypocrisy of those supporting John McCain who are also painting Barack as some kind of baby-killing monster when they are supporting a candidate from a party who has sent thousands of young Americans to their death in Iraq and, under McCain, will continue to do so. Why does the compassion only extend as far to unborn babies rather than the young men and women of America who spill their blood on foreign soil - or sand? Those who voted Republican in two elections voted for the war. It is time for real change and time to focus on the real issues facing America rather than this ridiculous spin and propaganda designed to derail Obama's White House bid. |
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| Bill | Aug 26 2008, 01:13 AM Post #1577 |
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In fairness to those who voted Republican, they might not have known they were voting for war in 2000, but some of us could see disaster coming in one form or another. In 2004, no excuses. Fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice.... Fight the smears: http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/fightthesmearshome |
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| beatlechick | Aug 26 2008, 01:13 AM Post #1578 |
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I almost brought that up about the war. Having seen this propaganda for many years now, I really can't say that these are true supporters of McCain either. I'm just not sure that McCain would totally support trash like this. It's scary how some people think. If only they're thinking would be put to good use like how to lower the need for abortion. Putting trash like this up isn't a solution. It's just another way of creating future abortions. People that produced the Silent Scream film a few years ago did something similar by wanting it to be taken to Churches and Public TV. Not a whole lot of Churches bit and only a handful of PBS stations did. Says a lot. And thank you for your comment.
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| maccascruff | Aug 26 2008, 01:19 AM Post #1579 |
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Sing the Changes
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Mary Ann, would you please go to this site to see the truth about Obama. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 26 2008, 01:19 AM Post #1580 |
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Thank God there won't be a fool me thrice! |
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| Bill | Aug 26 2008, 01:20 AM Post #1581 |
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Michelle Obama hates America: http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/MOattackad Barrack Obama won't pledge allegiance to the flag: http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/patriot |
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| maccascruff | Aug 26 2008, 01:21 AM Post #1582 |
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Sing the Changes
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Caroline Kennedy introduced Obama for the first time when I saw him in January. She is now introducing her very ill uncle. They say he is in the building, but they still don't know if he is going to speak. Listen to Michelle tonight and see what you think of her. The whole Michelle is anti-American has been totally over blown. Here comes the tribute and I'm sure I will be crying. |
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| maccascruff | Aug 26 2008, 01:22 AM Post #1583 |
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Sing the Changes
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Thanks for doing my reserach, Bill. You're a great mate. |
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| maccascruff | Aug 26 2008, 01:27 AM Post #1584 |
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Sing the Changes
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I should say that Dubya has embarrassed me so much as an American, that I cried after both elections. Dubya didn't win in 2000. the Supreme Court gave it to him. I have even looked into moving to Canada or elsewhere until the Bush administration was over. And just because McCain was a POW does not make him an expert on foreign affairs. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 26 2008, 01:37 AM Post #1585 |
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OMIGAWD seeing Ted Kennedy walking out to the podium at the Democratic Convention with his wife brought tears to my eyes. I heard he was going to be there but oh so wonderful to see him! YES WE CAN |
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| beatlechick | Aug 26 2008, 01:39 AM Post #1586 |
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I love that they are playing You're Still the One!! Teddy is!! |
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| maccascruff | Aug 26 2008, 01:42 AM Post #1587 |
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Sing the Changes
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Maria Shriver had tears in her eyes. CNN was saying earlier in the day that he had flown in earlier today, but they still didn't know if he would be physically able to speak. They had taped his speech in case he was too ill. Brain cancer is not a pretty sight. He is a true Kennedy and he did his job. You could tell that he is very sick. |
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| BeatleBarb | Aug 26 2008, 01:48 AM Post #1588 |
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It was very moving to see Senator Kennedy speak. Despite his illness, he still delivers a great speech - a true Kennedy. |
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| BlueMolly2009 | Aug 26 2008, 01:48 AM Post #1589 |
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LOLcat Freak
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I've been listening to the convention online (don't feel like putting the TV on) and I heard Ted Kennedy's speech. I'm not a HUGE fan of his, but he did a wonderful job and it's good that he's there. |
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Molly Myspace My Twitter My FriendFeed My Facebook ![]() Boston Chihuahuas (I took this while at a Starbucks) | |
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| beatlechick | Aug 26 2008, 01:50 AM Post #1590 |
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Definitely! I had heard that he arrived in Denver on Sunday and whisked to a hospital so that he could get checked out. Rumors on CNN earlier said he would be at the Convention but no one was sure even though he was mentioned on the schedule. |
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| Bill | Aug 26 2008, 01:50 AM Post #1591 |
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TRIVIA: Who said this? "I didn't love America until I was deprived of her company." And for the record, I respect him for saying that. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 26 2008, 01:51 AM Post #1592 |
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I saw that video. I can fully understand his statement and can not pull him down for that either. |
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| Bill | Aug 26 2008, 01:51 AM Post #1593 |
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Oh sh*t! What a dumb thing to do. It's cliched and it's inappropriate. Whatever you make think of the man, he represents yesterday and implying he's "still the one," is not change we can believe in. Bad move. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 26 2008, 01:56 AM Post #1594 |
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He may be from the past but he has tried so much to get good healthcare in the US that he is thinking of the future! |
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| Bill | Aug 26 2008, 02:02 AM Post #1595 |
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I've got nothing against Ted personally and I know he's done a lot of good things and is underrated for it, but there comes a time when a party has to put its old guard out to pasture. I know that sounds harsh, but being overly reverent to the elder statesmen makes parties lose sight of future goals. Kennedy's endorsement of Obama is as relevant and Reagan's endorsement of Bob Dole. All the party faithful love it, but they were going to vote for their guy anyway and nobody else cares. It's the same everywhere. When Alexander Downer became leader of the Liberal Party in 1994, the introduced him to Dame Patty Menzies (widow of the party founder), she said he was lovely and they though they were on a good thing. They weren't. They forgot she was only one vote. Labor has the same problem with Gough Whitlam. |
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| maccascruff | Aug 26 2008, 02:05 AM Post #1596 |
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Sing the Changes
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I respect him for saying that, too. So why can't people understand what Michelle was trying to say? I understand her speech will include some things about the civil rights movement without which we would not have Barack Obama where he is today. |
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| maccascruff | Aug 26 2008, 02:06 AM Post #1597 |
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Sing the Changes
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I doubt the Democratic Party will ever forget the Kennedy family. Some of the video was of JFK and RFK. Caroline spoke of how Teddy has been uncle and grandfather to all of the Kennedy clan. |
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| beatlechick | Aug 26 2008, 02:07 AM Post #1598 |
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I understand that and agree to a certain point. Barack Obama sought out the Kennedy's for support and mentoring. Ted Kennedy's support means a lot to Obama, not for party lines but he knows that Kennedy could teach him so much. |
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| maccascruff | Aug 26 2008, 02:11 AM Post #1599 |
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Sing the Changes
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And many think that it was Teddy and Caroline's endorsement of Obama that helped him a great deal during the primaries. Most of Bobby's kids were Clinton supporters. So a favor was returned tonight. They said Teddy was brought to the stage on a golf car and there was a stool on stage for him to sit on. They said backstage, you could barely hear him. But he pushed the stool aside and gave his speech with a booming voice. |
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| scottycatt | Aug 26 2008, 03:09 AM Post #1600 |
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I disagree with you on this one, Bill. Perhaps you have a different perspective, not living here in the states, as to what the Kennedy family means to the Democratic party. The Obama campaign didn't really catch fire and take off until Ted and Caroline Kennedy endorsed Barack. Had they endorsed Hillary Clinton, we would be watching a different person giving the acceptance speech this Thursday. And on a personal note, I never cared much for Ted Kennedy as a person, but I think he's done more as a legislator and an advocate for the rights of the poor and disenfranchised than almost any other senator of the past 20 years. He has truly lived by the words "To whom much is given, much is expected." I applaud him loudly for that.
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Oh yeah! A much lower US worldwide credibility rate!



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2:01 PM Jul 11