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2008 U.S. Presidential Election
Topic Started: Feb 22 2007, 05:49 AM (37,434 Views)
Bill
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They are indicative of the intelligence required to.
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Mia Culpa
Jun 5 2008, 05:57 AM
Can pretty speeches run a country?
What's wrong with pretty speeches? Communication is everything.
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beatlechick
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scottycatt
Jun 5 2008, 06:50 AM
Mia Culpa
Jun 5 2008, 05:57 AM
Can pretty speeches run a country?
We shall see. :ermm:
They sure couldn't hurt. The US has had so many bad speeches these last 8 years that SOME intelligence is refreshing!
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Bill
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Ask Abraham Lincoln. Or Winston Churchill.
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Mia Culpa
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They'd probably say their speeches got all the media attention but it was their hard work that got things done.

A rousing speech can stir the masses but it won't get legislators to do what you want. Nobody's going to change anything without the legislators on board.

For every good orator who was a good leader I can name a good orator who was a terrible leader.
If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead.
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beatlechick
Jun 6 2008, 01:20 AM
They sure couldn't hurt. The US has had so many bad speeches these last 8 years that SOME intelligence is refreshing!
Everybody looks intelligent compared to your current leader.
If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead.
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Dr.WinstonO'Boogie
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Mia Culpa
Jun 7 2008, 04:23 AM
beatlechick
Jun 6 2008, 01:20 AM
They sure couldn't hurt. The US has had so many bad speeches these last 8 years that SOME intelligence is refreshing!
Everybody looks intelligent compared to your current leader.
That is damn' true..but not difficult! Even Paris Hilton looks like Albert Einstein compared to him!

Wait and see...I am happy that Obama made it!I hope he will win the elections!

Astrid
One day, you'll look, to see I've gone - but tomorrow may rain so I'll follow the sun



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BeatleBarb
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Mia Culpa
Jun 7 2008, 04:23 AM
beatlechick
Jun 6 2008, 01:20 AM
They sure couldn't hurt. The US has had so many bad speeches these last 8 years that SOME intelligence is refreshing!
Everybody looks intelligent compared to your current leader.
God, ain't that the truth!
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Bill
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I've said before that I respect John McCain and wouldn't be all that unhappy with him winning. But for pity's sake, why does he have to keep making such a dick of himself?

He's trying to own Obama's platform of change while at the same time defending current policy, yet still claiming the best agent of change is an ageing Republican. You can't have it both ways..... can you?
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maccascruff
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Mia Culpa
Jun 7 2008, 04:23 AM
beatlechick
Jun 6 2008, 01:20 AM
They sure couldn't hurt. The US has had so many bad speeches these last 8 years that SOME intelligence is refreshing!
Everybody looks intelligent compared to your current leader.
Is this ever true.

And no, Bill, McCain can't have it both ways. He sure is trying though.
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beatlechick
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Bill
Jun 13 2008, 02:32 AM
I've said before that I respect John McCain and wouldn't be all that unhappy with him winning. But for pity's sake, why does he have to keep making such a dick of himself?

He's trying to own Obama's platform of change while at the same time defending current policy, yet still claiming the best agent of change is an ageing Republican. You can't have it both ways..... can you?
No you can't. And he is trying to sling mud before the real campaign even starts.
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Bill
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And now he's claiming the Supreme Court was wrong on its Guantanamo decision claiming it's a radical reinterpretation of the constitution when it is in fact reversing a radical reinterpretation.
I've always though the "McBush" stuff was crass and unworthy but he seems to be doing everything he can to prove it. His pandering to the right wing base is going to fail him because that base just isn't big enough to do him any good now. And it's not as if they'd vote for Obama anyway. I can't believe he's turning his back on everything that made him an attractive candidate in the first place. They might as well have nominated Romney.
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Samwise
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Bill
Jun 14 2008, 03:16 AM
And now he's claiming the Supreme Court was wrong on its Guantanamo decision claiming it's a radical reinterpretation of the constitution when it is in fact reversing a radical reinterpretation.
I've always though the "McBush" stuff was crass and unworthy but he seems to be doing everything he can to prove it. His pandering to the right wing base is going to fail him because that base just isn't big enough to do him any good now. And it's not as if they'd vote for Obama anyway. I can't believe he's turning his back on everything that made him an attractive candidate in the first place. They might as well have nominated Romney.
Unfortunately, the minute John McCain became the Republican nominee, he sold out to the far right, and whatever "moderation" he may once have had seemed to disappear. I used to like John McCain, and thought the "McBush" stuff was crass too - at first. But the more I learned about McCain, the more I realized he truly would just be George W. Bush's third term.
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Bill
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That's what's so galling about it. He's GOT the nomination. He doesn't need to pander to the base. He needs to appeal to swinging voters who want to\he traditional conservative ideals of fiscal restraint and true national security, not the 23% who still think Bush has done a good job. In pursuing this strategy, he's turning away everyone who might have considered him a good Republican option. The default republicans are going to vote for him anyway.
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maccascruff
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I am glad that you figured out that McCain will be Bush's third term, Samwise. We can't have another four years like the last 8 years.
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Samwise
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maccascruff
Jun 16 2008, 04:14 PM
I am glad that you figured out that McCain will be Bush's third term, Samwise. We can't have another four years like the last 8 years.
Not that I ever planned to vote for the guy, of course. I'm all about Obama and have been since John Edwards dropped out, and even back then I was placing my bets on Barack. But John McCain's maverick persona seems to be the product of moderate past positions (certainly not the ones he's running on), his experiences in Vietnam (which I totally respect - McCain went through things I can't even imagine - but it doesn't immunize him from criticism, it sure didn't for Kerry), and a media that utterly adores the guy. But if what I've seen so far this year means anything, I'm feeling pretty optimistic that we won't have to deal with even another four.
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Bill
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Oh Tom, are you so naive? Service in Vietnam didn't immunise Kerry from from criticism because Kerry is a Democrat which means he hates America and dreams of the day he can hand the keys of the White House to al Qaeda. Everyone knows that!

McCain on the other hand is a Republican, which means he is a patriot and a true war hero. Just wait for the same chickenhawks who called Kerry a coward to claim that McCain is above criticism thanks to his war service.

On a slightly more serious not, it's true that up until even this time last year, McCain could quite accurately have been described as a moderate. It says a lot about the state of the Republican party when a moderate is described as a maverick.
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beatlechick
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I received this email today, very good news for a lot of us:

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Dear Cathy,

A few hours from now I will step on stage in Detroit, Michigan to announce my support for Senator Barack Obama. From now through Election Day, I intend to do whatever I can to make sure he is elected President of the United States.

Over the next four years, we are going to face many difficult challenges -- including bringing our troops home from Iraq, fixing our economy, and solving the climate crisis. Barack Obama is clearly the candidate best able to solve these problems and bring change to America.

This moment and this election are too important to let pass without taking action.

That's why I am asking you to join me in showing your support by making a contribution to this campaign today:

https://donate.barackobama.com/gore

Over the past 18 months, Barack Obama has united a movement. He knows change does not come from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue or Capitol Hill. It begins when people stand up and take action.

With the help of millions of supporters like you, Barack Obama will bring the change we so desperately need in order to solve our country's most pressing problems.

If you've already contributed to this campaign, I ask that you consider making another contribution right now. If you haven't, please take the next step and own a piece of this campaign today:

https://donate.barackobama.com/gore

On the issues that matter most, Barack Obama is clearly the right choice to lead our nation.

We have a lot of work to do in the next few months to elect Barack Obama president, and it begins by making a contribution to this campaign today.

Thank you for joining me,

Al Gore

LIVE TONIGHT -- 8:30 p.m. EDT: Watch streaming video of Al Gore and Barack Obama at a rally in Detroit, Michigan:

http://www.BarackObama.com

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Bill
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Is that likely to change anyone's mind one way or the other?
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beatlechick
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I'm sure some of the Middle people, who were dying for Gore to get in the race and were Hillary supporters, may change to Obama and not McCain (as a lot have said they would vote for).
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Bill
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I'm not convinced that's a good thing. "Well, I had made my decision based on what I feel is best but since someone else has made a different decision, I'll change to be like him." Doesn't anyone think for themselves?

I've got nothing against Gore but it seems a bit like Paul endorsing John. As if he wouldn't,
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beatlechick
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Bill
Jun 17 2008, 02:16 AM
I'm not convinced that's a good thing. "Well, I had made my decision based on what I feel is best but since someone else has made a different decision, I'll change to be like him." Doesn't anyone think for themselves?

I've got nothing against Gore but it seems a bit like Paul endorsing John. As if he wouldn't,
He could've stayed completely away from it. People here, up to about last week, were thinking a possibility of Gore being a running mate.............again!! I doubt that is a likelihood.
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Bill
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Nor should it be. The election is about the future, not the past. And can Gore run for a third VP term, even if it is under another president?

Keep in mind that the 24-hour networks have to have something to talk about and if there isn't anything to talk about, then they have to "speculate," and that speculation can take on a life of its own. Someone just mentioned 9ui11iani as a running mate for McCain. Surely McCain still has enough nous not to shoot himself in the foot like that. But here we go already - talking about something that someone just threw out there for the sake of something to talk about.

I think the reality is that Gore's endorsement is either Plan A or Plan B. I'm sure if Hillary had clinched the nomination, he would have delivered the same speech with a different name. And to be fair to him, Gore carries a lot more kudos now than he did in 2000.
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beatlechick
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He certainly does.
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Samwise
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Bill
Jun 17 2008, 01:44 AM
Oh Tom, are you so naive? Service in Vietnam didn't immunise Kerry from from criticism because Kerry is a Democrat which means he hates America and dreams of the day he can hand the keys of the White House to al Qaeda. Everyone knows that!

McCain on the other hand is a Republican, which means he is a patriot and a true war hero. Just wait for the same chickenhawks who called Kerry a coward to claim that McCain is above criticism thanks to his war service.
Hey, Joe Lieberman has already started claiming it.

Incidentally, the 22nd Amendment limits the President to two terms, but to the best of my knowledge there isn't anything in there about VP term limits (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Not that Gore should be VP, but I don't think there's anything Constitutional stopping him.
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My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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fab4fan
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"Any fool can have a child -- that doesn't make you a father. Too many fathers are missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities. They are acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families have suffered because of it."

__Barrack Obama, Father's Day sermon, June 15, 2008
Edited by fab4fan, Jun 17 2008, 05:04 AM.
Mnisthiti mou Kurie!
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fab4fan
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fab4fan
Nov 8 2007, 05:56 AM
Here we are 2 months before any votes are cast and its been decided that its Hillary against Giuliani.
And now
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
For my next prediction
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The
Chicago
Cubs
will
win
the
World
Series
in
2008. :devil:
Mnisthiti mou Kurie!
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Bill
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:hyper: :clap:
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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
fab4fan
Jun 17 2008, 05:03 AM
fab4fan
Nov 8 2007, 05:56 AM
Here we are 2 months before any votes are cast and its been decided that its Hillary against Giuliani.
And now
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
For my next prediction
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The
Chicago
Cubs
will
win
the
World
Series
in
2008. :devil:
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Bill
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In my country, and I would presume most others, campaigns are really quite short. We know there has to be an election some time in the third year of the government's term so the phoney campaign will begin about a year before that and things will get serious in the last six months, but in all that time, they are all still doing what we pay them to do too. Then when the Prime Minister decides to call the election, parliament is dissolved, we have the campaign and no more than six weeks later, we have a new government.

The interesting thing about the American system is that we really get to know the candidates. I've been making a list of some of the things we've learned:

Barrack Obama will not drop you like a hot potato just because you become a momentary embarrassment.

Hillary Clinton will say absolutely anything to anyone to get a few votes.

Barrack Obama will drop you like a hot potato if you insist upon being an ongoing embarrassment.

Bill Clinton is not a secret weapon.

John McCain was against the strategy in Iraq before he was for it.

Mike Huckabee is basically a nice guy with some really weird ideas about the constitution and separation of church and state.

Chris Dodd was the only candidate with a day job who decided that doing what the people currently pay him for was more important than one more day on the campaign.

Fred Thompson's heart was never in it.

Rudy Giuliani claimed he was the one to take the fight to al Qaeda, but he couldn't even take it to New Hampshire.

Five minutes after his strategy faltered, Giuliani threw in the towel and endorsed the frontrunner. Way to surrender Rudy!

Despite a conspiracy of silence from all sides, Ron Paul is still in the race. *

Ralph Nader doesn't know when he's not wanted.

Mitt Romney could have stayed in the race a lot longer and made a strong showing but chose not to.

Between them, Romney and McCain's flip flops make John Kerry look like an army boot.

Bill Richardson grew a beard. OMG, like, WFT? He totally grew a freakin' beard!

The only Republican in the race to have been married only once was the Mormon.

Those who mocked John Kerry for marrying an heiress have no problem with John McCain marrying an heiress.

John Edwards is a strong candidate who picked the wrong year to run.

The ones who decried Bill Clinton's adultery are not bothered about Giuliani or McCain's adultery.

Nobody wants George Bush's endorsement.

Nobody needs Ted Kennedy's endorsement.

Joe Lieberman will do anything to seem relevant.

Positive campaigns still work. Whether it was ever uttered by a real presidential candidate, or only by a semi-fictitious one, any jackass can burn down a barn.


* EDIT: He's now officially out, but only as of last Thursday
Edited by Bill, Jun 18 2008, 08:41 AM.
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maccascruff
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fab4fan
Jun 17 2008, 03:57 AM
"Any fool can have a child -- that doesn't make you a father. Too many fathers are missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities. They are acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families have suffered because of it."

__Barrack Obama, Father's Day sermon, June 15, 2008
This is one of the most intelligent statements any of the candidates has made during this election. Obama also said that he realized that the way he was raised without a father in Hawaii was nothing compared to being raised without a father in the south side of Chicago.
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fab4fan
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Bill
Jun 17 2008, 09:18 AM
In my country, and I would presume most others, campaigns are really quite short. We know there has to be an election some time in the third year of the government's term so the phoney campaign will begin about a year before that and things will get serious in the last six months, but in all that time, they are all still doing what we pay them to do too. Then when the Prime Minister decides to call the election, parliament is dissolved, we have the campaign and no more than six weeks later, we have a new government.

The interesting thing about the American system is that we really get to know the candidates. I've been making a list of some of the things we've learned:

......
Those who mocked John Kerry for marrying an heiress have no problem with John McCain marrying an heiress.

John Edwards is a strong candidate who picked the wrong year to run.

The ones who decried Bill Clinton's adultery are not bothered about Giuliani or McCain's adultery.
......
I wanted to toss in my two cents on these three particular observations:

Heiress: A minimal of research will enlighten most people that one of the ladies is a decent human being and the other, let's just say, is no lady.

John Edwards: If nice hair is the only prerequisite I could run for president. So could you. :D

Adultery: Location, location, location. Lying under oath. And then the worst of the three, the one that always gets you, COVERUP.
Mnisthiti mou Kurie!
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Bill
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I'm surprised I got away with only three! :D

If it's a question of character, then make it a question of character and not the fact that she's an heiress which was the main charge against Kerry. By "no lady" are you referring to the one who refuses to make her tax returns public even if she becomes first lady?
What's not to love about beer and ketchup?

I have a lot of time for John Edwards. I think he was outshone but not outclasses. And you would beat me every time on the nice hair score. ;)

Location matters? Then the charge against Rudy still stands. There is no excuse for perjury but perjury only came into it when busybodies asked questions that were none of their business and had nothing to do with the running of the country. If it had been anyone else, most lawyers would argue entrapment. Still no excuse, but the question should never have been asked in the first place.
And if anyone thinks that was the first knee-trembler to take place under that particular desk, then I've got some African yellowcake to sell really cheap. The only difference is that in previous generations, people didn't mouth off about what goes on behind closed doors. My only point is that if they're going to, their high moral standards should be spread evenly.

Damn, I need an editor!
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The republicans should damn stop this
http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/06/stick-a-pin-in-it.html

but you know they won't.
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Bill
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Look on the positive side. At least you'll be able to see the regressive dickheads coming.
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Past The Point Of No Return
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Que sera sera...whatever will be will be...

Some of you are simply afraid of the will of the people.
Whilst on the Internet, question the validity of ALL friendships, information and opinion.
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Bill
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You seem awfully certain of the will of the people.

Certain enough to put money on the table?
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maccascruff
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That button is outageously racist. And there will be so much more to come. My own parents can't vote for Obama because he is black, even though they don't like McCain.
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Past The Point Of No Return
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Some of you people seem to embrace inflammatory speech.

Derogatory, incendiary, blasphemous, etc.

These styles do not enforce your arguments.
Whilst on the Internet, question the validity of ALL friendships, information and opinion.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080618/pl_politico/11168

Muslims barred from picture at Obama event:
Two Muslim women at Barack Obama’s rally in Detroit on Monday were barred from sitting behind the podium by campaign volunteers seeking to prevent the women’s headscarves from appearing in photographs or on television with the candidate.

The campaign has apologized to the women, both Obama supporters who said they felt betrayed by their treatment at the rally.

“This is of course not the policy of the campaign. It is offensive and counter to Obama’s commitment to bring Americans together and simply not the kind of campaign we run,” said Obama spokesman Bill Burton. “We sincerely apologize for the behavior of these volunteers.”
Story continues

Well it may not be the written policy however there is a thing called "unwritten rules", policies not on paper. I believe there still are skeletons in Obama's closet. I am sure there will be some who will assume I'm a big McCain fan taking shots at the Senator, that is not the case. In my opinion Obama is not the lesser of evils. If I had to choose between Sen. Obama or Sen. Clinton and I was forced to vote for one or the other, not stay at home or write in, I'd vote for Sen. Clinton.
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beatlechick
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Past The Point Of No Return
Jun 18 2008, 06:16 PM
Some of you people seem to embrace inflammatory speech.

Derogatory, incendiary, blasphemous, etc.

These styles do not enforce your arguments.
Explain yourself! Who is being inflammatory here?
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maccascruff
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Dan, at the rally I attended, we were seated by volunteers, who happened to be students. I do not know what kind of training they got because we only knew of the rally for about 48 hours before it happened. I was a precinct captain and I know now I was seated in view of the television because I fit the Hillary demographic--middle aged white woman.

I have seen on television today pictures taken at other rallies with women wearing Muslim head gear in the audience. I have also seen a group shot of Obama that was taken in Detroit and there is a Muslim woman in the picture.

I will give you kudos for quoting Yahoo news instead of Fox News. ;)
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tonyhemp
Jun 18 2008, 09:39 AM
The republicans should damn stop this
http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/06/stick-a-pin-in-it.html

but you know they won't.
Good to see all the antennae are back up to catch anything remotely racist in the general election. I had been stewing the last few months watching the liberal "regressive dickheads" getting away with every racist thing they threw at Obama during the primaries.
(Tony, in your defense I know you were busy with adopting a kid and traveling overseas.)
Texas GOP cuts off vendor that sold racist button
Jun 18, 2:54 PM (ET)
By APRIL CASTRO

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - The Texas Republican Party is distancing itself from a vendor who sold campaign buttons at last weekend's state convention that asked, "If Obama is president ... will we still call it The White House?"

The state GOP party said Wednesday that it will donate the $1,500 rent it collected from the vendor, Republicanmarket.com, to Midwestern flood victims.

State GOP spokesman Hans Klingler said the party does not vet the merchandise being sold, but officials plan to discuss doing so in the future. The button sales at the convention in Houston were first reported in the Dallas Morning News.

"This vendor need not apply to another Texas GOP state convention," Klingler said. "We will neither tolerate nor profit from bigotry."

Barack Obama, who clinched the Democratic nomination this month, is the first black presidential nominee of a major party.

The state GOP will bar the vendor from booth space at future events and "encourage him to clean up his act," Klingler said.

State GOP officials said they also have alerted the Republican National Convention so that the vendor, Jonathan Alcox, will not be allowed to sell merchandise at the convention in St. Paul, Minn., in September.

A phone number listed for Republicanmarket.com and Alcox went unanswered.

Mnisthiti mou Kurie!
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Bill
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dantheweatherman
Jun 18 2008, 11:49 PM
I am sure there will be some who will assume I'm a big McCain fan taking shots at the Senator, that is not the case. In my opinion Obama is not the lesser of evils. If I had to choose between Sen. Obama or Sen. Clinton and I was forced to vote for one or the other, not stay at home or write in, I'd vote for Sen. Clinton.
Well, that's not an option now, so you have a decision to make.

In the past you have said it would be wrong to assume you're for McCain, yet you haven't had anything to say about him the way you have about Obama and Clinton. You've also agreed that Clinton will say anything, and previously said that writing-in was an option. Naturally, you don't owe anyone an explanation, but you're backing yourself into a corner with all the things you claim you're not doing.

People are naturally going to wonder why you are not as vocal with your scepticism towards McCain as you are with Obama and Clinton. It is your right to believe Obama has skeletons, but what evidence do you base those beliefs on? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but they're not entitled to their own facts.
btw, any more news on the big "White power!" story? Don't worry, I know the answer ;)
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Bill
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fab4fan
Jun 19 2008, 02:00 AM
tonyhemp
Jun 18 2008, 09:39 AM
The republicans should damn stop this
http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/06/stick-a-pin-in-it.html

but you know they won't.
Good to see all the antennae are back up to catch anything remotely racist in the general election. I had been stewing the last few months watching the liberal "regressive dickheads" getting away with every racist thing they threw at Obama during the primaries.
(Tony, in your defense I know you were busy with adopting a kid and traveling overseas.)
Texas GOP cuts off vendor that sold racist button
.....
Good for them. Credit where due.

Don't know what you've been watching, but I've seen heaps of criticism of racist undertones from Clinton supporters - that's if you call Clinton supporters liberal.
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fab4fan
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Wonder if this campaign button will be worth something someday?
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Bill
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If it is, it won't be because of the rarity, that's for sure! ^_^
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Bill
Jun 17 2008, 09:18 AM
In my country, and I would presume most others, campaigns are really quite short.
The nauseatingly endless campaign was the best thing to happen to Obama.
If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead.
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maccascruff
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And it's not over yet. It goes on until November.
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maccascruff
Jun 19 2008, 12:51 AM
I will give you kudos for quoting Yahoo news instead of Fox News. ;)
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Thanks but I only quoted yahoo because when I log into the internet my homepage is yahoo & there it was, I didn't have to do any searching.

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Darn this new server got me all mixed up when quoting! :pinch:
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maccascruff
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Think my Obama Precinct Captain will have any value someday? I still have Kerry/Edwards stuff, too.

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Mia Culpa
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If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead.
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scottycatt
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Jun 20 2008, 05:37 AM
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Are you in Florida or Ohio??



And did you know that the plural of chad is chad? ^_^


God, I miss me some Katherine Harris. :alien:




Why?
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Queenbee
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Our friend's father invented the chad. We're always teasing him about the elections.

PEACE and love to my friends, Judy

When the Power of Love over comes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace.
-Sri Chinmnoy Ghose

Till me meet again ~ I Love you Mike! You were one of a kind.
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beatlechick
Jun 19 2008, 12:02 AM
Past The Point Of No Return
Jun 18 2008, 06:16 PM
Some of you people seem to embrace inflammatory speech.

Derogatory, incendiary, blasphemous, etc.

These styles do not enforce your arguments.
Explain yourself! Who is being inflammatory here?
I'll let my post stand and allow others to judge the relative validity.
Whilst on the Internet, question the validity of ALL friendships, information and opinion.
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scottycatt
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Jun 20 2008, 02:56 PM
beatlechick
Jun 19 2008, 12:02 AM
Past The Point Of No Return
Jun 18 2008, 06:16 PM
Some of you people seem to embrace inflammatory speech.

Derogatory, incendiary, blasphemous, etc.

These styles do not enforce your arguments.
Explain yourself! Who is being inflammatory here?
I'll let my post stand and allow others to judge the relative validity.
Sure is windy in here. ^o)




Why?
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beatlechick
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scottycatt
Jun 20 2008, 06:20 PM
Past The Point Of No Return
Jun 20 2008, 02:56 PM
beatlechick
Jun 19 2008, 12:02 AM
Past The Point Of No Return
Jun 18 2008, 06:16 PM
Some of you people seem to embrace inflammatory speech.

Derogatory, incendiary, blasphemous, etc.

These styles do not enforce your arguments.
Explain yourself! Who is being inflammatory here?
I'll let my post stand and allow others to judge the relative validity.
Sure is windy in here. ^o)
Yep, and an ill wind at that. Seems someone doesn't want to spill the beans.
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Past The Point Of No Return
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You seem desparate for change of any kind.

I hope you're pleased with the outcome.
Whilst on the Internet, question the validity of ALL friendships, information and opinion.
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Bill
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What rational, thinking being wouldn't be, given the status quo?
Put a puppet on it.
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maccascruff
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Bill
Jun 21 2008, 03:24 PM
What rational, thinking being wouldn't be, given the status quo?
Wise words, Bill. With what the US has put up with since the Dubya era began, change and hope will be better. There is no doubt about that.

I don't like some of the accusations the mysterious whoever has made and then failed to back up when called on it. When he was elsewhere, he demanded specifics but fails to provide them.
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beatlechick
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maccascruff
Jun 21 2008, 06:41 PM
Bill
Jun 21 2008, 03:24 PM
What rational, thinking being wouldn't be, given the status quo?
Wise words, Bill. With what the US has put up with since the Dubya era began, change and hope will be better. There is no doubt about that.

I don't like some of the accusations the mysterious whoever has made and then failed to back up when called on it. When he was elsewhere, he demanded specifics but fails to provide them.
Yep, well we definitely know what it's like with that kind of thinking they are portraying. I would rather get it out in the open instead of keep a guessing game going. A waste of time to do that.
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Mia Culpa
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"Elect me and I'll take away your guns and turn Christmas into a natonal gay sex day."
Obama's backwards message
If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead.
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beatlechick
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Mia Culpa
Jul 2 2008, 05:21 AM
"Elect me and I'll take away your guns and turn Christmas into a natonal gay sex day."
Obama's backwards message
Hey I like that. I hate guns and am always happy having sex.................... and to make it a day :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:
Edited by beatlechick, Jul 3 2008, 12:58 AM.
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Bag O' Nails
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I know you will hate me for this :duh: , but I can't help but post it. I got it in an email and it is very thought provoking...

http://www.usawakeup.org/
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beatlechick
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The thought that provoked me was the use of scare-tactics. I'm not ignorant to what is going on out there but I'll be damned if I will believe that my Iranian Muslim neighbor or some of the Saudis that I work with have any other mind controlling thoughts other than how to fix the fence or whether or not Medicare or Aetna is the primary payor on someone's health insurance.
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Yes, it was scary and sobering. I entered their website and saw this:

About The Intro Movie Clip

The purpose of the introduction movie clip was to get one's attention, not to scare you. It is all based on fact and probabilities. The "Last Gasp" part was taken from a Reagan speech given many years ago, but we believe the theory is applicable today - maybe even more so. The High-altitude ElectroMagnetic Pulse HEMP nuclear detonation part is real, and believe it or not, the Russians contemplated using this type of detonation against us during the Bosnia War. Like the Cuba crises, they backed off due to our retaliation ability. But, how do we retaliate against a terror cell, that does not belong to a nation-state? Our national power grid is one of our weakest points. It's old, and just like they won't allow building new oil refineries, the environmentalists will not allow building new transmission lines - in addition, the generating plants are required to be built many miles away from the load, another vulnerability. Also, the current transmission line system is at full capacity, with no reserve built in. Without the power grid, this nation can't survive long.

The Muslim threat is real, part of their 20 year quest to dominate the West. So far, they're winning, beating us at our own game, by using our own freedoms against us.

Regardless of your politics, and your personal feelings about Newt Gingrich, please watch this short clip "I Am Deeply Worried." . The man knows what he is talking about - the threat is real.
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scottycatt
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maccascruff
Jun 21 2008, 06:41 PM
Bill
Jun 21 2008, 03:24 PM
What rational, thinking being wouldn't be, given the status quo?
Wise words, Bill. With what the US has put up with since the Dubya era began, change and hope will be better. There is no doubt about that.

I don't like some of the accusations the mysterious whoever has made and then failed to back up when called on it. When he was elsewhere, he demanded specifics but fails to provide them.
That would be Lan. LCH, or whatever he's calling himself these days.

I'd recognize his "voice" anywhere. ^_^




Why?
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Bag O' Nails
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scottycatt
Jul 6 2008, 12:57 AM
maccascruff
Jun 21 2008, 06:41 PM
Bill
Jun 21 2008, 03:24 PM
What rational, thinking being wouldn't be, given the status quo?
Wise words, Bill. With what the US has put up with since the Dubya era began, change and hope will be better. There is no doubt about that.

I don't like some of the accusations the mysterious whoever has made and then failed to back up when called on it. When he was elsewhere, he demanded specifics but fails to provide them.
That would be Lan. LCH, or whatever he's calling himself these days.

I'd recognize his "voice" anywhere. ^_^
He's still around?
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beatlechick
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Bag O' Nails
Jul 6 2008, 12:42 AM
The Muslim threat is real, part of their 20 year quest to dominate the West. So far, they're winning, beating us at our own game, by using our own freedoms against us.

That is the scare-tactics I am talking about. This is like what a lot of the Conservative-Right people have said about Gay people. That they have an agenda and will recruit people. The same old line, same old bullsh*t.
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beatlechick
Jul 6 2008, 02:18 AM
Bag O' Nails
Jul 6 2008, 12:42 AM
The Muslim threat is real, part of their 20 year quest to dominate the West. So far, they're winning, beating us at our own game, by using our own freedoms against us.

That is the scare-tactics I am talking about. This is like what a lot of the Conservative-Right people have said about Gay people. That they have an agenda and will recruit people. The same old line, same old bullsh*t.
I don't see how you can equate terrorism by Al Quaeda with gay people wanting their rights. Last time I looked gays weren't blowing up airplanes and planting bombs.
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beatlechick
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Bag O' Nails
Jul 6 2008, 04:58 AM
beatlechick
Jul 6 2008, 02:18 AM
Bag O' Nails
Jul 6 2008, 12:42 AM
The Muslim threat is real, part of their 20 year quest to dominate the West. So far, they're winning, beating us at our own game, by using our own freedoms against us.

That is the scare-tactics I am talking about. This is like what a lot of the Conservative-Right people have said about Gay people. That they have an agenda and will recruit people. The same old line, same old bullsh*t.
I don't see how you can equate terrorism by Al Quaeda with gay people wanting their rights. Last time I looked gays weren't blowing up airplanes and planting bombs.
Who said I was. I was simply stating that the same scare tactics being used on Muslims are identical to the scare-tactics the Conservative Right used against Gay people. Now they say the Radical Muslims are going to march right down your street and kill you, taking your children to brainwash them. Then they were saying about the Gays that they would march down your street and kidnap your children to recruit them into being Gay. Same scare-tactics.
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Bill
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Jul 6 2008, 04:58 AM
I don't see how you can equate terrorism by Al Quaeda with gay people wanting their rights. Last time I looked gays weren't blowing up airplanes and planting bombs.
Oh really?
According to Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson it was the gays and the feminists who allowed Sept 11 to happen.

What say you? :whistle:
Put a puppet on it.
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Bill
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Bag O' Nails
Jul 6 2008, 12:27 AM
I know you will hate me for this :duh: , but I can't help but post it. I got it in an email and it is very thought provoking...

http://www.usawakeup.org/
Okay, so you couldn't help but post it. But why? What's your point?

If it's a reminder that any extremist idiot can get a website (and I'd like to think it is ;) ) then fair enough.

If you're taking this rubbish seriously then I would again ask why.

So are we supposed to believe that western invasion and interference in Muslim countries (which, let's be honest, contains a strong undertone of Christian evangelism) is in no way trying to destroy their culture and faith BUT Islam is trying to destroy western society? Give me a break! You can't have it both ways.

Yes, the Sept 11 hijackers were Muslim. They were also male. Does that make all males evil? How broad a brush do you want to paint with?

There is nothing wrong with Christianity. There is nothing wrong with Islam. Evil comes from extremism. Extremism of any creed is destructive. Al Qaeda are not evil because they're Muslim. They're evil because they're extremists. Likewise, those freaks from Westboro Baptist Church are no evil because they're Christian. They're evil because they're extremists. And it's a good analogy because their brand of Christianity bears as much resemblance to genuine Christianity as al Qaeda bear to genuine Islam.
Now some might say that the Westboro mob are just a vocal minority who get far more attention than they deserve because of their behaviour. And they would be correct. Now you know how Muslims feel when they get lumped in with the nutters from bin Laden's mob. There's some common ground for you.

In any case, there's no need to be scared. The site is obviously just there to attack Obama. (You know he's not a Muslim, right? ;) ) If there were a real threat, then they wouldn't have lame jokes about him. And if they felt so strongly, they would do something more useful than starting a silly website and forwarding misleading emails.

With the greatest respect Heidi, I think you should learn more about the broader issues and be very careful of who you allow to influence you. :sweet:
Put a puppet on it.
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beatlechick
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Bill's back!!!!
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scottycatt
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beatlechick
Jul 6 2008, 03:49 PM
Bill's back!!!!
Sorry for the threadjack here . . . .


Bill, how was your week? Has your *guest* gone back home? :whistle:




Why?
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Mia Culpa
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Wake up, America! Muslims want to kill you, steal your women and eat your children! I guess. I heard it on some radio show.

Seriously, Americans aren't this stupid, are they? If racism is thought provoking you need to find something better to do.
If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead.
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beatlechick
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Mia Culpa
Jul 7 2008, 03:33 AM
Wake up, America! Muslims want to kill you, steal your women and eat your children! I guess. I heard it on some radio show.

Seriously, Americans aren't this stupid, are they? If racism is thought provoking you need to find something better to do.
Some can be. Not so much as stupid but being gullible. Not really even that. More of being scared and falling into the pit of accepting someone else's 'truth' (aka scare-tactic) as being reality.
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maccascruff
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I hope I am in Invesco Field in August when the next president of the United States accepts the nomination of his party.
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Bill
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Mia Culpa
Jul 7 2008, 03:33 AM
Wake up, America! Muslims want to kill you, steal your women and eat your children! I guess. I heard it on some radio show.

Seriously, Americans aren't this stupid, are they? If racism is thought provoking you need to find something better to do.
http://www.bobedwardsradio.com/blog/2008/7/7/rick-shenkman-and-the-truth-about-the-american-voter.html

Now you can be afraid.
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beatlechick
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Bill
Jul 9 2008, 01:35 AM
Mia Culpa
Jul 7 2008, 03:33 AM
Wake up, America! Muslims want to kill you, steal your women and eat your children! I guess. I heard it on some radio show.

Seriously, Americans aren't this stupid, are they? If racism is thought provoking you need to find something better to do.
http://www.bobedwardsradio.com/blog/2008/7/7/rick-shenkman-and-the-truth-about-the-american-voter.html

Now you can be afraid.
Yep, that just about sums it all up!

Linda, I too hope to be there. Donated my money in either case.
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Bag O' Nails
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Bill
Jul 6 2008, 11:59 AM
Bag O' Nails
Jul 6 2008, 04:58 AM
I don't see how you can equate terrorism by Al Quaeda with gay people wanting their rights. Last time I looked gays weren't blowing up airplanes and planting bombs.
Oh really?
According to Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson it was the gays and the feminists who allowed Sept 11 to happen.

What say you? :whistle:
From what I read, they said that due to "sin" (homosexuality, in their eyes, amongst other things) that God had pulled his hand of protection from the US and allowed the terrorist attacks to take place. Note that Falwell did apologize for those comments: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/14/Falwell.apology/

I don't fear Muslims; I don't think we should lump all Muslims as terrorists; but I do think we should aware and not be stupid as to the radical Islamic threats of attacks against America.

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Heidi, I don't think anybody is. When a blanket statement is made about Muslims, than you gotta understand that a lot of people will take that at face value and believe that it means all of Islam and not just a fanatical few.
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Bill
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Bag O' Nails
Jul 9 2008, 03:22 AM
From what I read, they said that due to "sin" (homosexuality, in their eyes, amongst other things) that God had pulled his hand of protection from the US and allowed the terrorist attacks to take place. Note that Falwell did apologize for those comments: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/14/Falwell.apology/

I don't fear Muslims; I don't think we should lump all Muslims as terrorists; but I do think we should aware and not be stupid as to the radical Islamic threats of attacks against America.

Falwell apologised? Oh, well that makes everything alright then. Churlish of me to even mention it. So does this mean he was wrong? You tell me.
I think you know as well as I do that the apology was damage-control to prevent a backlash after he showed his true feelings. You have interpreted what the meant by this but I still ask, what say YOU?

Since you single out Islamic radicalism for fearmongering purposes as opposed to radicalism in general, it can only lead one to wonder WHY. I'm not making any guesses, just pointing out the fact that when you repost such patent nonsense without any commentary or reasoning of your own, then people are left with no other option but to speculate on what your motivation might be.

You claim not to fear Muslims, but if that's true, why did you start the "Obama a Muslim?" thread? You say, they shouldn't all be lumped in as terrorists, but when have you ever talked about Muslims when it wasn't in the context of terrorism and fearmongering. Again, I'm not taking any guesses. I'm just wondering what YOU would surmise if you had nothing else to go on but what you have posted here.

Frankly, if someone who lives in Israel (and therefore has more more experience of terrorist threats than anyone living in middle America) finds it racist, that tells you all you need to know.
Put a puppet on it.
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Bag O' Nails
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There are so many things to respond to here, Bill, but let me try to address some of your comments.

I'm not judging whether Falwell was right or wrong here. EVERYONE in this world has put their foots in their mouths at one time or another; some are more harshly judged due to their religious or political stance. I find an apology doesn't always make it "right" but I find apologies are admirable and I choose to try forgiveness & understanding, even if I do (or don't) agree with them.

When I put posts out there without commentary, I do so for the purpose of sharing what I have read/heard to get others thoughts to it. Not everyone will post like you do. Some of us just aren't as articulate nor have the time in this arena. Frankly the reason I preluded my post with "I know you will hate me but..." was because I am in the minority (politically speaking) on this board and I don't like to feel like the enemy. Let's face it, generally speaking, most conservative posts that are made here are challenged/disagreed with (which is fine) but it does get tiring to always feel like you're on the defense or like you're racist/uninformed/biased, etc. because you have a differing point of view!

Seeing you know that I come from a conservative slant, do you seem to assume I always agree with everything I've posted or that it comes from some type of fear? Bringing up my "Obama a Muslim?" thread is an example (and wow that thread came from quite awhile back). Is it wrong in your eyes to post threads that pose questions? My post was not made out of "fear," rather I like to question that which I hear out there in the world. Obviously, Bill, and with the same amount of equal respect, not everyone "sees" things from your point of view.

Because some of my threads have been regarding Muslim terrorism, you seem to assume I am either racist or fearful of them. I have repeatedly explained that I am not fearful of Muslim people, but despite that you seem to keep implying I am because I've posted about Islamic terrorism. You ask why do I only refer to them in that aspect? Well, maybe because the biggest terrorist events that have taken place in this country have been related to radical Islamic terrorist groups! Again, I don't know how many times I have to say I don't fear "all" Muslims nor hate them...quite the opposite! But I don't have my head in the sand as to the hatred that many of the radical Islamic nations have for the US. On a previous post you said to regarding Muslim terrorists, "They were also male. Does that make all males evil? How broad a brush do you want to paint with?" But let's not always go so far, Bill...the fact that I've been married (29 yrs, thank you) to a "male" proves that! :whistle:

And regarding this quote:
Frankly, if someone who lives in Israel (and therefore has more more experience of terrorist threats than anyone living in middle America) finds it racist, that tells you all you need to know.

Most of Mia Culpa's posts drip with humorous sarcasm.

All I can say is that I have the greatest respect for the people who live in Israel (and that entire area) who have to deal with the daily threats to their lives! Unlike the US, which is a relatively young nation; that entire region has had many thousands of years of turmoil; we in America have not and when terrorism (of any sort) comes to us from other parts of the world, it is new and a threat to the freedoms we have fought for...and that is scary!


Edited by Bag O' Nails, Jul 9 2008, 05:05 PM.
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theonlyfab4fan
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
Heidi, even though you and I are miles apart politically I think your last post was very well stated. I would get sick of constantly being bashed and goaded too.

I imagine that some think that their argumentative replies will produce a positive thought provoking exchange of ideas. Frankly I think there comes a time to just shut the hell up. Having the last word often means that all you did was leave a bad impression.

As for using another board members culture or ethnicity as absolute proof that your own opinion is more valid is just stupid.

Unless you really know without a doubt that this person is who they say they are you have prooved nothing.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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scottycatt
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Jul 9 2008, 06:26 PM
Heidi, even though you and I are miles apart politically I think your last post was very well stated. I would get sick of constantly being bashed and goaded too.

I imagine that some think that their argumentative replies will produce a positive thought provoking exchange of ideas. Frankly I think there comes a time to just shut the hell up. Having the last word often means that all you did was leave a bad impression.

As for using another board members culture or ethnicity as absolute proof that your own opinion is more valid is just stupid.

Unless you really know without a doubt that this person is who they say they are you have prooved nothing.
Very well said, Betsy. :clap:



Heidi, feel free to express your views. I may not agree with them, but I do agree with your right to ask for the opinions of others. :flower:




Why?
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Thanks so much for your warm posts, Betsy and Bev! :hug: :hug:

I do care for you all here and while we all can't agree on everything (well, for except that Paul rules :yahoo: :giggle: ) we can still show love and respect for each other and our differences! :flower:
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Jul 9 2008, 08:33 PM
Thanks so much for your warm posts, Betsy and Bev! :hug: :hug:

I do care for you all here and while we all can't agree on everything (well, for except that Paul rules :yahoo: :giggle: ) we can still show love and respect for each other and our differences! :flower:
You're welcome, Heidi. -_-


Now I'll just have to start that "Plastic Surgery/Botox" thread and see if we agree on that! ;)




Why?
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Bill
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Thanks for your response Heidi. I would reiterate that I am not accusing you of anything, I'm just letting you know how it looks. My point about males was to illustrate how dangerous it can be to generalise. Obviously you feel affronted by generalisations, and fair enough too, so now you know how it feels to be a Muslim when people go reposting idiotic emails. And yes, the email is idiotic. It's nothing personal. If you're going to post things that are demonstrably untrue or extremist, you can't blame people for saying so. That's why I brought up the Obama thing because it was demonstrably untrue. And if memory serves, that thread was not originally posted as a question. ;)
But if you're going to ask the question, don't blame people for answering.

I don't think you're racist Heidi, I think you're a really nice person. I'm just letting you know how it looks when you uncritically post things like that. It's not to do with your politics. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but they are not entitled to their own facts. The facts are clearly against this ridiculous site you linked to. You can blame people for saying so. Again, it's nothing personal. Equally, it's nothing personal when people point out the fact that whether you're aware of it or not, you've posted quite a few things that make ridiculous generalisations about Muslims. If you can direct me to anything kind you've said about them, I'd be very interested. I know you have qualified your stance now, but it all comes a across a bit like, "I'm not a racist but...." ;)

Understand that I'm saying this as a friend Heidi. If you're going to post things that are so easily shot down, people are going to do it. I also invite you to shoot me down whenever possible. :) And if you repost emails and links without any explanation of you motives, people are going to surmise, either rightly or wrongly.
And after all, forums are for discussing things, right? If you don't want something picked apart, then a message board (of any kind) is the wrong place to post it. :D
It's nothing personal. You just need to think things through. :hug:
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Points well taken; thanks Bill! :flower:
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Bill
Jul 10 2008, 01:45 AM
That's why I brought up the Obama thing because it was demonstrably untrue. And if memory serves, that thread was not originally posted as a question. ;)

... you've posted quite a few things that make ridiculous generalisations about Muslims. If you can direct me to anything kind you've said about them, I'd be very interested.

I also invite you to shoot me down whenever possible. :)
:D
Since I can't figure out this "quote" thing, I have to answer these few points as such: :blush:

Point 1: You are correct; but I did change it after it was taken the wrong way... ;)

Point 2: Most of my posts were regarding Muslim terrorists; I never bashed the people as a whole and tried to be clear on that. But I guess I can see where it could be misconstrued as such. I would also point out that if it were Australians, for example, who bombed the WTC, that you from down under would be the talk of the town :pinch: :whistle: :giggle: (you catch my drift here). I certainly do understand how Muslim people as a whole feel somewhat persecuted; my mother is German and experienced that firsthand when she came to this country in after the war... :hmm:

Point 3: Impossible!! :boogie: :hyper: :flower:
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Bill
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Bag O' Nails
Jul 10 2008, 03:36 AM
I would also point out that if it were Australians, for example, who bombed the WTC, that you from down under would be the talk of the town :pinch: :whistle: :giggle: (you catch my drift here).
Indeed I do. :)
It's part of the rush to over-simplify things.
It's an excellent analogy because most of the hijackers were in fact Saudis, but we hear very little mention of that because it's so much easier to brand them as simply Muslim, and also because it's not in anyone's economic interests to upset the Saudis.

But that's another discussion. :cheers:
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fab4fan
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Bag O' Nails about Bill being infallible
Jul 10 2008, 03:36 AM
Point 3: Impossible!! :boogie: :hyper: :flower:
bullsh*t! Ask him about the "Dali Lama" comment for Uday & Kusay and his "Dunkirk" strategy for Iraq. :whistle:

I'm glad to see the recent squabble was cleared up. I probably would have escalated it with my comment on how I wouldn't want the weight of always being right and being the "decider" on whose apologies were sincere and acceptable if I were a liberal. (apologies to Betsy & Bev.) j/k Bill!

Now before you cut my nuts off Bill, how about that Jesse Jackson?
Edited by fab4fan, Jul 10 2008, 05:20 AM.
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Bill
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Well, educate yourself about Dunkirk John. If they had "stayed the course," we'd all be speaking German and you know it. As it turned out, we ended up winning that war despite the "cut and run" tactics. You might want to study Gallipoli while you're at it. When you find yourself dropped in an impossible situation, then the smart thing to do it to get the hell out and try something else. If you don't want to do that, then how will you ask someone to be the last one to die for a mistake? ;)

If you're going to quote me, please quote me in context. The Buddhism comment was in the context of what "might" have happened had the US not invaded. It's nothing more than crystal gazing so my little bit of absurdism there had just as much factual backup as the scaremongering I was responding to.

Falwell's apology would have been sincere if he had learnt from his mistake and never done it again. But he didn't and he did. What does this tell us?

Um.... what about Jesse Jackson? Inform me.

What's next? :devil:
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Bill
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Bill
Jul 10 2008, 05:36 AM
If they had "stayed the course," we'd all be speaking German and you know it.....
Not that there's anything wrong with speaking German per se.... it's the other stuff involved that I wouldn't be so keen on.... :innocent:
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fab4fan
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aLGkFpsdHo
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Bill
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Well, a silly old goat who's struggling to maintain relevance saying something stupid doesn't really rattle my foundations. By whispering, it indicates he knew his mic was on and tried to get around it which shows extreme foolishness. Again, not something I feel compelled to get all that passionate about. I do find it interesting though, that it was important enough to be O'Reilly's top story. I can only surmise from that, that nothing more important happened in the world that day. So happy days!
:bounce:
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Mia Culpa
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If you don't understand the problem with saying not all Muslims are terrorists imagine constantly hearing that not all Christians are terrorists. Most Christians are probably decent people. It's the extremists you have to fear. He's Christian, but it's ok, he's not a terrorist. I went to a Christian country and didn't see any terrorism.

There are Jewish terrorist organisations but I never hear people say not all Jews are terrorists. Islam has as much to do with terrorism as Judaism and Christianity do.
If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead.
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Bag O' Nails
Jul 9 2008, 05:03 PM
Most of Mia Culpa's posts drip with humorous sarcasm.
I disagree. I very rarely use sarcasm.
If you read my posts backward there's evidence that Paul is dead.
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