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| Lethal Injections On Hold in California, Florida; WARNING: This May Be Hard To Read | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 16 2006, 11:42 AM (1,512 Views) | |
| JanaW | Dec 16 2006, 11:42 AM Post #1 |
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Lethal injection comes under fire in Fla., Calif. Bush declares halt after botched execution; Calif. method unconstitutional Dec. 15: Gov. Jeb Bush suspended all executions in Florida after a medical examiner said Friday that officials botched the insertion of the needles when a convicted killer was put to death earlier this week. Updated: 6:01 p.m. CT Dec 15, 2006 OCALA, Fla. - Lethal injection, the preferred method of execution in the U.S., came under fire in two states Friday, with a federal judge in California saying the capital punishment method is unconstitutional and Florida officials pledging to re-examine the system there following a botched execution earlier this week. In Florida, Gov. Jeb Bush suspended all executions in the state after a medical examiner said that prison officials improperly inserted needles in the arm of Angel Nieves Diaz on Wednesday. Because of the error, it took 34 minutes — twice as long as usual — and required a rare second dose of lethal chemicals to kill the convicted murderer, the examiner said. In the California case, a federal judge imposed a moratorium on executions and declared that the state’s method of lethal injection violates the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment. U.S. District Judge Jeremy Fogel ruled in San Jose that California’s “implementation of lethal injection is broken.” But he said: “It can be fixed.” Lethal injection is the preferred execution method in 37 states, and is often cast by supporters as the most humane method of capital punishment. But courts are increasingly challenging that assumption. Last month, a federal judge declared unconstitutional Missouri’s injection method, which is similar to California’s. The controversy appeared sure to build in the wake of Diaz’s execution. Needles reportedly improperly inserted Florida’s medical examiner, Dr. William Hamilton, said Friday that the lengthy procedure was necessary because the needles that deliver the deadly drugs were pushed through his veins and into the flesh in his arms. The chemicals are supposed to go into the veins. Angel Nieves Diaz was put to death Wednesday during an execution process that lasted 34 minutes. Hamilton, who performed the autopsy, refused to say whether he thought Diaz died a painful death. “I am going to defer answers about pain and suffering until the autopsy is complete,” he said. He said the results were preliminary and other tests may take several weeks. Bush created a commission to examine the state’s lethal injection process in light of Diaz’s case, and he signed an executive order halting the signing of any more death warrants until the panel completes its final report by March 1. The order did not have any immediate effect, because no executions were scheduled before Bush leaves office on Jan. 2. His successor, fellow Republican Charlie Crist, said he also supports the moratorium. Bush said he wants to ensure the process does not constitute cruel and unusual punishment, as some death penalty foes argued after Diaz’s execution. Florida has 374 people on death row; it has carried out four executions this year. Diaz, 55, was put to death for murdering the manager of a Miami topless bar during a holdup in 1979. The medical examiner’s findings contradicted the explanation given by prison officials, who said Diaz needed the second dose because liver disease caused him to metabolize the lethal drugs more slowly. Hamilton said that although there were records that Diaz had hepatitis, his liver appeared normal. Executions in Florida normally take no more than about 15 minutes, with the inmate rendered unconscious and motionless within three to five minutes. But Diaz appeared to be moving 24 minutes after the first injection, grimacing, blinking, licking his lips, blowing and appearing to mouth words. As a result of the chemicals going into Diaz’s arms around the elbow, he had a 12-inch chemical burn on his right arm and an 11-inch chemical burn on his left arm, Hamilton said. Florida Corrections Secretary James McDonough said the execution team did not see any swelling of the arms, which would have been an indication that the chemicals were going into tissues and not veins. Diaz’s attorney, Suzanne Myers Keffler, reacted angrily to the findings. “This is complete negligence on the part of the state,” she said. “When he was still moving after the first shot of chemicals, they should have known there was a problem and they shouldn’t have continued. This shows a complete disregard for Mr. Diaz. This is disgusting.” Earlier, in a court hearing in Ocala, she had won an assurance from the attorney general’s office that she could have access to all findings and evidence from the autopsy. She withdrew a request for an independent autopsy. David Elliot, spokesman for the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty, said the Diaz execution was just the latest in a long history of foul-ups on the state’s death row. “Florida has certainly deservedly earned a reputation for being a state that conducts botched executions, whether its electrocution or lethal injection,” Elliot said. “We just think the Florida death penalty system is broken from start to finish.” Florida got rid of the electric chair after two inmates’ heads caught fire during executions in the 1990s and another suffered a severe nosebleed in 2000. Lethal injection was portrayed as a more humane and more reliable process. Twenty people have been executed by lethal injection in Florida since the state switched from the electric chair in 2000. In the California case, U.S. District Judge Jeremy Fogel said that the case under consideration there raises the question of whether a three-drug cocktail administered by the San Quentin State Prison is so painful that it “offends” the Eighth Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishment. Fogel said he was compelled “to answer that question in the affirmative.” The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld executions — by hanging, firing squad, electric chair and gas chamber — despite the pain they might cause, but has left unsettled the issue of whether the pain is unconstitutionally excessive. California has been under a capital punishment moratorium since February, when Fogel called off the execution of rapist and murderer Michael Morales amid concerns that condemned inmates might suffer excruciating deaths. Fogel found substantial evidence that the last six men executed at San Quentin might have been conscious because they were still breathing when lethal drugs were administered. He ordered anesthesiologists to be on hand, or demanded that a licensed medical professional inject a large, fatal dose of a sedative instead of the additional paralyzing agent and heart-stopping drugs that are normally used. But no medical professional was willing to participate. Attorneys for Morales alleged in a lawsuit that Morales might appear unconscious after being injected with a sedative, but internally he would suffer excruciating pain, “burning veins and heart failure,” once the paralyzing and the death drug were administered. Morales, 47, of Stockton, raped and brutally beat a 17-year-old Lodi girl 25 years ago. California’s death row is the nation’s largest, with more than 650 inmates. © 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. |
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If slaughterhouses had glass walls the whole world would be vegetarian. Linda McCartney | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 16 2006, 01:09 PM Post #2 |
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would not life without parole be a cruel and unusual punishement. therefore lets not punish any sodding body |
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| maccascruff | Dec 16 2006, 05:59 PM Post #3 |
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Sing the Changes
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Against except for one MDC.
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| Bag O' Nails | Dec 16 2006, 07:54 PM Post #4 |
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MaccaMomma
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I am pro-death penalty. You take the life of the helpless and innocent, you pay the same price they did. I'm not pro-torture, however, and wouldn't enjoy seeing even a convicted killer have to unnecessarily suffer (although I do have to say that if they tortured an innocent, I wouldn't shed tears if they had to also suffer a little). A solution? The old-fashioned firing squad would be quick and serve the purpose. No "suffering" there! |
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| Bag O' Nails | Dec 16 2006, 07:55 PM Post #5 |
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MaccaMomma
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It's not as cruel as you think. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 16 2006, 08:00 PM Post #6 |
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actually i know it isn't it is just an argument that the anti- capital punishment brigade use a lot. consequently the b*stards only serve six years here. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Dec 16 2006, 08:03 PM Post #7 |
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Administrator & Moderator
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My objections against capital punishment are based upon (i) not having complete faith in the judicial system to get it right the first time and (ii) that no person or persons should have the right to say whether someone lives or dies. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| maccascruff | Dec 16 2006, 08:10 PM Post #8 |
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Sing the Changes
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My biggest objection is also my little faith in the judicial system. Like OJ walking free when the world knows he killed his wife. I would make an exception for the killer of John Lennon. |
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| Sandra | Dec 16 2006, 08:20 PM Post #9 |
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That is my objection in a nutshell |
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| Deleted User | Dec 16 2006, 08:20 PM Post #10 |
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If there's no DNA proof, I say they should get life if found guilty. But I have no problem with a death sentence for seriously heinous crimes. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Dec 16 2006, 08:40 PM Post #11 |
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MaccaMomma
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I could agree with this. |
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| theonlyfab4fan | Dec 16 2006, 09:54 PM Post #12 |
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
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There is another thought to consider. How is it right that we ask a small segment of our society to carry out the grim task of knowing that they had to take the life another human being because it was part of the job description. Lock em up and throw away the key and make sure they never see the light of day as free person again for as long as they live. But don`t kill them. Then you have lowered yourself to their level. |
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You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' ! I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN | |
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| Bag O' Nails | Dec 16 2006, 10:11 PM Post #13 |
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MaccaMomma
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One problem with locking them up forever is that it is very costly to society to maintain their lives in prison. Another problem is prison over population; many people who need to be locked up (lesser offenses) are let out because there's no room. A third problem is that many of these prisoners also run with gangs and contribute to prison violence. Who carried out these executions in the "old" days? Firing squads. Simple, quick and effective. I don't think it's lowering yourself to their standards. I think it's more in line with the slogan that if you wanna dance, you gonna have to pay the band. |
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| theonlyfab4fan | Dec 16 2006, 10:26 PM Post #14 |
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So society should have no conscious about their actions based on the economic price tag attached? If it is cheaper to kill them that justifies the practice? I am sure the families of the many many innocent people who have lost their lives due to wrongful conviction are forever greatful for that attitude. |
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You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' ! I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN | |
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| maccascruff | Dec 16 2006, 11:07 PM Post #15 |
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Sing the Changes
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For many people, it has been proven now that DNA testing is available, that they did not commit the crimes for which they were put to death. |
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| BlueMolly2009 | Dec 16 2006, 11:48 PM Post #16 |
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LOLcat Freak
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We've had this discussion before and it always turns ugly. The pro death penatiy people will say it's right and the ones against it will say that they are right. I believe in pro death penalty especially when someone kills a police officer. Take Ralph "Bucky" Philips. He killed a police officer but since New York State doesn't have a dath penalty he can only get life. I have a concious, and to see a police officer get brutally murdered and have the SOB get locked up for life isn't right. But I guess you guys would rather see a cop killer in jail than get the death penalty. Raph Philips could escape again, but I guess that is what some people want. :angry: |
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| theonlyfab4fan | Dec 17 2006, 12:29 AM Post #17 |
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
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I have noticed that a lot of threads turn ugly once you join in Molly. There has been nothing ugly or uncivilized about the way any of us here have expressed our opinions on this matter. We all have the right to agree or disagree just as you do. But the only one who goes off the deep in and throws a hissy fit about people not seeing eye to eye is you. |
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You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' ! I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN | |
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| Samwise | Dec 17 2006, 12:38 AM Post #18 |
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For my part, I am absolutely against the death penalty. Do some criminals deserve to die for their crimes? Maybe. But nobody, nobody, neither judge nor jury nor murderer, should have the power over whether another human being lives or dies. To borrow a phrase, true power is when you have every justification to kill someone, and then you don't. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 17 2006, 01:29 AM Post #19 |
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you kill my loved ones you die and if i can't get you i'll get your family. the first duty of a government is to protect its people, no politician has the right to take away capital punishment without the consent of the people. now in the us you have the ability to take away capital punishment or restore it, we have never had the option. as far as i am concerned the victim's family could ask for the death penalty not to be considered as a judgement. but guess which way i would go. |
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| BeatleBarb | Dec 17 2006, 01:37 AM Post #20 |
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I'm so conflicted over these matters. Part of me says take 'em out if they kill and another part of me is in total agreement with Samwise, Betsy, Andy and others. |
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| Dorfliedot | Dec 17 2006, 01:38 AM Post #21 |
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Beatlelicious
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I am against. I believe that if god said, Thy shall not kill that meant everyone. No one, not even government has right to kill. God did not say only special people have right to kill. I might not feel same if I lost a love one to a killer. but, I still will believe thy shall not kill. Only way Is That I believe it is at time someone is attacking you. and that is you are defending your self from that person. |
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| Dorfliedot | Dec 17 2006, 01:39 AM Post #22 |
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Beatlelicious
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You have right to protect your family and your self. but, the goverment doesn't. who are they protection? |
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| BeatleBarb | Dec 17 2006, 01:41 AM Post #23 |
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For the most part, I agree with you Dotty, but like I said, to be honest, I am conflicted about the concept. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 17 2006, 01:42 AM Post #24 |
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dotty you can bet your last dollar that if we had ten politicians being murdered in one year we would have it back straight away. |
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| Dorfliedot | Dec 17 2006, 01:42 AM Post #25 |
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What makes a cop better then any other living person? And, Molly don't put words in other people mouths. just because, we don't believe in the death penalty doesn't mean we want someone to go free. |
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| Dorfliedot | Dec 17 2006, 01:45 AM Post #26 |
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Beatlelicious
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True, It would. It's the government. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 17 2006, 02:56 AM Post #27 |
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Yes I would rather see a cop killer in jail for life with no chance of parole then to execute him or her. Sorry if that offends you but I do not want my government killing anyone. To many innocent people have been convicted only to have their convictions overturned on dna evidence. Wonder how many went to their deaths who couldn't prove their innocence. Wonder how many more will because dna evidence is contaminated. |
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| FamousGroupie | Dec 17 2006, 03:18 AM Post #28 |
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I have a somewhat morbid fascination with the seamier side of crime, ie serial killers like John Christie, John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Aileen Wuornos and various others. What possesses them to an extent where they feel they have to go out and take someone's life? What was going through Timothy McVeigh's head in Oklahoma City that day? Unfortunately, despite the scientific breakthroughs of the last fifty years, we'll probably never know, because everyone on my list has been put to death. See my point? If we keep these animals alive and caged, maybe we could start to understand why these people are like they are.... I really should have studied criminology. |
| I don't believe in Bondi. I don't believe in rugby league. I believe in Yoko, John Lennon, the Lost Weekend and me. | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 17 2006, 04:06 AM Post #29 |
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because we already know and there arre plenty of serial killers alive in british and european jails. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Dec 17 2006, 07:25 AM Post #30 |
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MaccaMomma
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I'm sorry, but I truly feel that we as a society should not have to pay for violent murderers to spend the rest of their lives in jail. I'm not talking about those for whom the evidence was sketchy; I'm talking about very deliberate, henious crimes that deserve more than me paying for them to live out their lives behind bars. I'm talking about crimes where ones guilt is proven 100 percent. I wonder if there are any stats as to how many "wrongful" executions there have been. In this modern day and age with DNA testing, cameras, etc. there are so many ways to prove guilt (or innocence). Do you think we should keep people alive like John Wayne Gacy, Ed Gein, Richard Ramierez, Juan Corona, Albert Fish, Ted Bundy, etc? |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Dec 17 2006, 08:07 AM Post #31 |
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So, we as a society say that it is wrong to kill - and how do pro-capital punishment believers suggest we punish those who have unlawfully killed? By killing them. That's about as logically flawed as a parent who punishes their child for being violent by smacking them. Personally, I believe that people who have committed henious crimes should live and pay for what they have done. Being executed may be the 'ultimate price', but being incarcerated for the rest of their natural lives is a far worse punishment, in my opinion. The economic argument is also very flawed - it currently costs the United States, per head, more to execute somebody (including all of the legal wranglings) than it does to imprison them for life. Basically, it costs the American taxpayer more to execute felons than it does to keep them locked up for life. If you want me to back up this claim with data, then I can. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Dorfliedot | Dec 17 2006, 08:13 AM Post #32 |
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Someone can also, be set up with DNA.. |
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| Dorfliedot | Dec 17 2006, 08:30 AM Post #33 |
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If want to punsh them take alway all stuff they like doing..watching t.v. , weight lifting. don't make prison fun.. My ex would see movie before I had seen it. were in prison. i believe in the chain gang. maybe, if they still had that no one want go back. |
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| Bill | Dec 17 2006, 11:05 AM Post #34 |
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I have to say all credit to Jeb for erring on the side of caution here. He could have dismissed this report and appealed to the "fry 'em" crowd but he chose not to. Good call! Brings a tear to my eye.
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| Bill | Dec 17 2006, 11:13 AM Post #35 |
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Not true. It costs more to execute someone in the US than it does to keep them imprisoned for life.
Build more prisons. Boosts the local economy, reduces unemployment and brings the knock-on economic advantages of those two things which would pay for the building and upkeep of the new prisons.
That's a discipline thing. What are the guards doing?
Ever been shot?
Must we speak in bumper stickers? The question is not whether the convict deserves to live. The question is who has the right to kill him. All moral codes allow for killing in self-defense only. If someone is locked up, ritually killing them is not self defense. Therefore, by what moral code is someone or something given the right to take the life of another? Whatsoever you do unto the least of My brothers, that you do unto Me. |
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| Bill | Dec 17 2006, 11:16 AM Post #36 |
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Having read some of the posts on this thread, I now wonder the same thing.
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| Deleted User | Dec 17 2006, 11:26 AM Post #37 |
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I am pro-death penalty. You take the life of the helpless and innocent, you pay the same price they did. I'm not pro-torture, however, and wouldn't enjoy seeing even a convicted killer have to unnecessarily suffer (although I do have to say that if they tortured an innocent, I wouldn't shed tears if they had to also suffer a little). A solution? The old-fashioned firing squad would be quick and serve the purpose. No "suffering" there! [/QUOTE] I agree with you. But only when there is unquestionable proof the person is guilty. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 17 2006, 11:54 AM Post #38 |
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Where did you find that out? I also resent that I am so heavily taxed on my already low wages that I have to claim income support which I am having trouble getting, and yet my taxes are paying for that lot to have Sky TV. So yes, please do show me the figures, I'd like to see them. |
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| Sandra | Dec 17 2006, 11:59 AM Post #39 |
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There is never unquestionable proof. Only what is currently known, this leads to the case that a judgement always has to be made on the evidence available at the time. Too often (in my opinion) when new evidence becomes available, a previous judgement has been shown to be wrong. |
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| theonlyfab4fan | Dec 17 2006, 12:48 PM Post #40 |
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
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Heidi I intended to give you a personal response to your quoting of me, but all who have posted after in support of my position have done so quite eloquently and there is no need for me to be repetitious. |
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You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' ! I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 17 2006, 01:00 PM Post #41 |
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i would rather have ten innocent people executed every year than have as we are now an extra 500 innocent people murdered. and actuarally there is unquestionable proof, now lets see murder suicide as we had in the summer down the road, cctv, dna, eye witnesses etc etc, but hey if some want to question it fine but all too often the questions are a load of shite. well it would cost more here for an execution as they only stay in for an average of six years. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 17 2006, 01:08 PM Post #42 |
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I mean DNA and/or CCTV. To me, that is unquestionable. |
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| Dorfliedot | Dec 17 2006, 01:12 PM Post #43 |
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You said, it better then I could Bill. Gosh, I wish I could express things the way you all do.. My wods just don't come out as right as yours do. |
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| theonlyfab4fan | Dec 17 2006, 01:19 PM Post #44 |
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
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Only if it hasn`t been tampered with. Don`t know about the UK but there have been incidents here in the US where it has come out that people have been set up with false DNA evidence. One case, though not a murder case, involved a Dr. who was basically date raping his patients. He would give them the date rape drug while they were in his exam room. Have his way with them and thought none was the wiser. One young women though vaguely remembered what had happened to her when she came to, so she went to the Emergency room at the hospital where they did indeed collect semen. So the Dr. was compelled to give a blood sample. Guess what he did. He implanted a small tube in his arm containing the blood of someone else. The blood was drawn and tested and shown not to match the DNA from the semen sample. Case closed. Well this young woman was adamant that the test was wrong and made such a headache for her local DA that she forced them to test him again. Second time still no DNA match. The woman persisted for more than a year to clear her name and bring this man to justice. Finally a third test was ordered. This time smartypants Dr. goofed. HE no longer had the original blood sample that he was using to hide his own DNA, so he used another, and of course this time the DNA did not match, but it also didn`t match the DNA from the frist 2 tests. So you can see from this example that even DNA is not always the final word. |
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You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' ! I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN | |
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| Sandra | Dec 17 2006, 01:35 PM Post #45 |
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Fair enough but some questions I might have on just those particular issues. Was the DNA collected and stored properly? Was there any possibility of it being tampered with? Was it analysed properly? Is the pathologist reliable and above reproach (seems to me a home office pathologist was found lacking regrettably many years after some mothers had been wrongfully convicted of murder which many now believe to have been cot death) Is the man/woman in the red hood on the fuzzy CCTV picture the same man/woman who is standing in the dock now? At some point of course a judgement has to be made and whatever law applies has to be enforced but I think it is important that no evidence is treated as unquestionable. |
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| JanaW | Dec 17 2006, 03:53 PM Post #46 |
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Let me say this....and please don't take this as an excuse to get off onto a religious discussion. This is only an observation on my part. Also, without being stoned to death here (please no big rocks!)...let me say while I am Catholic and consider myself religious to a point...I am not a big believer in everything in the Bible. Anyway, that said....... If the Ten Commandments, which are supposed to be God's laws to us, say "Thou Shalt Not Kill" then where does it say...."Thou Shalt Not Kill, but it's okay to kill someone who killed someone else" Before anyone quotes me "An eye for an eye"...let me say that this is one reason I am not a big Bible person. If an Eye for an Eye means to kill or hurt those who have hurt you or yours..get even so to speak....then it contradicts everything else the Bible says. Biblically, how can we justify the ability to take one life to avenge another? Capitol Punishment is MANS law...not GODS law. If you believe in heaven, do you think when you die and stand before your maker that he will look back and say" Well you killed X number of men because you were only doing your job" You get into Heaven." and then turn to the criminal behind you and banish them to Hell because they also killed X number of people for for your own gain? don't you think both men are killing for their own gain? One to keep his job and the other...well there are many reasons. If I was the guy who was doing the injecting...I'd be considering the long term effects on me...and that means way long term...after death. |
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If slaughterhouses had glass walls the whole world would be vegetarian. Linda McCartney | |
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| JanaW | Dec 17 2006, 04:02 PM Post #47 |
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For those who say we need more prisons...it costs too much to keep people alive I say: Let's get on with our exploration of other planets. Find one where we can build a big world wide prison. Haul criminals (REAL criminals...murderers, rapists etc..) up there, put them into the prison and fly away. They won't need guards to keep them in ....where else do they have to go? They can't escape...where would they go? they can police themselves. We can drop off food supplies once a week and they are on their own. Problem solved? |
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If slaughterhouses had glass walls the whole world would be vegetarian. Linda McCartney | |
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| theonlyfab4fan | Dec 17 2006, 04:10 PM Post #48 |
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
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Jana, I agree. I too am not a Bible thumper but I do know a good deal about what it says even if I can`t quote chapter and verse, I do know how to find that info if needed. I have read the Bible cover to cover many many times in my life, and I have read many different translations of the Bible and other holy books of other religions as well. So if anyone wants to use the eye for an eye argument to support their stand on the death penalty they must also remember that that sentiment was expressed in the Old Testament. Jesus said turn the other cheek. He also said hang the law and the profits. Christians are supposed to derive the main body of their personal doctrine from the teachings of Jesus Christ (hence the name christian) and not the Old Testament which was judaic. It doesn`t take a rocket scientist that the God of the old testament was portrayed in a very different light from the God of the new testament. Jesus`s entire ministry was about reforming the jewish religion. Reform was not tolerated so a new religion was born out of that reformation. Just as Martin Luther attempted to reform Catholocism and when that prooved unsuccessful, Lutheranism was born. So isn`t the whole point of this exercise we call life to be about constantly striving to improve on what was provided to us by previous generations. Are we supposed to doggedly hold tightly to old ways just because they have been that way for centuries. If you want to break it down to an even simpler analogy, every parents goal is to give their children a better future than what was given them. That means that sometimes you have to do away with certain concepts you were taught to be proper in favor of adopting new ideas that will benefit your childrens lives more fully in the future. Thus giving them the tools to grow up to do even better with their kids than you did with yours. We are all in this together. |
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You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' ! I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 17 2006, 04:22 PM Post #49 |
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we could do that now on rockall. |
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| BlueMolly2009 | Dec 17 2006, 04:29 PM Post #50 |
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LOLcat Freak
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For those who say "Build more prisons", doesn't it cost money to build prisons, um tax money? Here in New York State we're taxed way too much and I doubt people would want more prisons being built because they are actually paying for it because of the taxes. BTW, I wanted to apologize to everyone for my first post here. I should have worded it better instead of acting like a b*tch. Thanks Andy and Betsy for pointing this out to me. I slipped up from how I have been trying to act. This will not happen again. |
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Molly Myspace My Twitter My FriendFeed My Facebook ![]() Boston Chihuahuas (I took this while at a Starbucks) | |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Dec 17 2006, 04:40 PM Post #51 |
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I've researched this subject thoroughly in the past few years because this is probably around the third time in the past two years I've engaged in this debate. There are plenty of examples available on the web, but this one gives examples from quite a few states and cites reliable sources. www.deathpenaltyinfo.org "The Death Penalty Information Center is a non-profit organization serving the media and the public with analysis and information on issues concerning capital punishment. The Center was founded in 1990 and prepares in-depth reports, issues press releases, conducts briefings for journalists, and serves as a resource to those working on this issue. The Center is widely quoted and consulted by all those concerned with the death penalty." |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| maccascruff | Dec 17 2006, 06:41 PM Post #52 |
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Sing the Changes
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With the cost of all the appeals, etc., and the US taxpayer often picks up the cost of the perp's attorney, it would be cheaper to lock them up. Also, it would give the medical world an opportunity to study people like serial killers and see why they do it and maybe prevent others from doing the same thing. No, I don't like the idea of cushy prisons, but I'm told that even though prisoners get to watch tv, etc., it still isn't much of a life. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Dec 17 2006, 06:42 PM Post #53 |
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OK Molly, thanks for that.
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| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 17 2006, 07:01 PM Post #54 |
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Guess that is where we differ, I'd rather see a guilty person go free then an innocent person executed. Life with no possiblity of parole. Peter, I wonder if it was your family who was wrongly convicted would you feel this way. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 17 2006, 07:19 PM Post #55 |
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One. I have known someone here in Winchester that was murdered. And a family who's daugther was murdered then the b*stard comes out and tries to get custody. They are both seperate cases twenty years apart. Two. three people i was related to in Northern Ireland were murdered. Three i had the misfortune to know people who went on to murder Four. I am sitting in an indian restuarant in Swindon after finsihing late on my own and a man and a woman are sitting on the table next to me. When he starts talking to me, a huge guy he is, i aint interested i am doing year end and just finshed my third 14 hour day on the trot. Turns out the lady is a Prison officer he is on a rehab weekend prior to release., two male officers are actually at the table at the door. He boasts he killed his wife and that the body was never found and they will never find it. I tell him if it was my sister i would be loving it that he was coming out because he'd be dead. His eyes went and i was just ready for him to throw a punch and lose his license but she told him to sit. Five Just google Naomi Bryant i did'nt know her. Six The death penalty is a deterrant Seven We had 70,000 innocent people in prison now. |
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| Bill | Dec 18 2006, 04:21 AM Post #56 |
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That's a great slogan until you or someone you love gets banged up on charges of something they didn't do. And you've already said that if anyone kills one of your loved ones, you'll kill theirs. Bit of a paradox there mate. Which is it to be? You've already made it clear that you're okay with killing innocents. That's some values system.
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| Bill | Dec 18 2006, 04:25 AM Post #57 |
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I've said this before, but it's worth repeating: As a Christian, I'm a New Testament kind of guy. Much of Christ's mission was to explain, and in some cases debunk the Old Testament. I'm no biblical scholar, but the only passage I'm aware of that deals with the concept of capital punishment is the stoning. Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Not "without really bad sin like killing someone or something," just "without sin." There's your answer. |
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| Bill | Dec 18 2006, 04:30 AM Post #58 |
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No it isn't. Show me one criminal who allows for getting caught. The criminal mind works differently to the minds of people who would thing that the threat of death would be a good enough reason not to do something. Having already vowed to go after the familiesof those who would do your loved ones harm, would the threat of the death penalty be enough to stop you? I'd wager not. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 04:33 AM Post #59 |
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It deters them from killing again, does it not? |
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| theonlyfab4fan | Dec 18 2006, 04:42 AM Post #60 |
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What deters them from killing again is, incarceration, not the death penalty as Bill pointed out. A goood many of them fall under the category of "it only happens to someone else, not me". |
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You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' ! I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN | |
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| Bag O' Nails | Dec 18 2006, 04:43 AM Post #61 |
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MaccaMomma
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That's because we house, feed, educate and give them free legal services for 20 years before they are executed. Building more prisons so that we can continue to do the above is absurd. What are the guards doing? Do you know any American prison guards? I do. I know several. It is not a "fun" job. Being in a violent, negative atmosphere with rapists, murders, etc. is a depressing job. They are exposed to violence, hatred, pornography, racial hatred, gangs, etc. on a daily basis. Should we have more prisons for the sake of providing more jobs? While it's a necessary job that someone has to do, I would rather encourage better job opportunities than asking for more prison guards. Ever been shot? Nope; I'm still alive. But I'm sure if I was shot in the head, it would be so quick that it would be virtuously painless. Maybe they should be executed the same way in which they murdered their innocent victims. I've never seen that bumper sticker, but if you do, let me know...I may buy it.
That IS the question, Bill. Do YOU think they deserve to live? Self defense? You would ask a woman who is being raped and then murdered to kill her attacker first? You would ask a child who was kidnapped and murdered to kill? Remember, these are helpless, innocent victims, unable and obviously unsuccessful to defend themselves. I'm sure if they did everything in their power to get away. So now that they're dead, it's the murderer's turn. |
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| Bill | Dec 18 2006, 04:44 AM Post #62 |
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Your logic is that it removes the ability for them to kill again. So does locking them up. QED.
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| Bag O' Nails | Dec 18 2006, 04:44 AM Post #63 |
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MaccaMomma
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Betsy, What say ye about my last question? (Gacy, Bundy, etc) |
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| Bag O' Nails | Dec 18 2006, 04:45 AM Post #64 |
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Sounds good to me. Ever see "Escape from NY?" |
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| theonlyfab4fan | Dec 18 2006, 04:47 AM Post #65 |
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Heidi, I can only bring myself to respond to your last argument in your lengthy breakdown of the points you were trying to make. What makes you think you (or anyone else for that matter) have the right to decide who lives or dies? |
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You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' ! I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN | |
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| Bill | Dec 18 2006, 04:51 AM Post #66 |
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Heidi, you're confusing the right to live with the right to kill. Show me any moral code that allows for killing another human, when not in self defense. It just doesn't work that way. I would be inclined to agree that a bullet in the head would be relatively quick and painless. But that's what they thought about lethal injection - that's how this whole discussion started, remember? And can I take as a corollary of your argument, that you wouldn't advocate the death penalty for murderers who shot their victims in the head, since it's so humane? Nothing personal, but I find the bloodlust of those who claim to abhor violent crime rather disturbing. :hmm: There's no way you could pay me enough to be a prison guard. I have every respect for the profession. But if you don't give them the volume and resources they need for the job, then the job isn't going to get done. You don't need to be James Baker to figure that out. Obviously things need to be improved. But you don't improve anything with institutionalised legalised ritual homicide. I'm not trying to make everything about Iraq, but perhaps the $9 billion that is missing there could have built a few prisons and paid for a few more guards. Why aren't those who are outraged over the cost of keeping prisoners as outraged about that? When it comes to law and order, like everything else, you get what you pay for. So anyone who says, "Hey, sh*t happens," to the missing 9 billion, don't talk to me about wasting taxpayers' money on anything. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Dec 18 2006, 05:06 AM Post #67 |
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MaccaMomma
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Is that a yes or no on those murderers I mentioned? I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but I really want to know what you think about that. I could ask pro-choice people the same question you asked me. Who decides? Society. |
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| Bag O' Nails | Dec 18 2006, 05:07 AM Post #68 |
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MaccaMomma
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Nobody has the right to kill the INNOCENT. If you do, then you deserve the same fate. |
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| Bill | Dec 18 2006, 05:11 AM Post #69 |
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Don't avoid the question Heidi. Yo know very well what I'm talking about. Who has the right to kill the guilty? What they deserve is neither here nor there. We are talking about the right to kill. Who has the right to kill? |
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| theonlyfab4fan | Dec 18 2006, 05:16 AM Post #70 |
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
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Well , then let me ask you this. What have we as a society learned to improve the future and possibly identify markers that can pinpoint an individuals propensity to commit the crimes that these people did that you have mentioned by executing them? Of course there is also the old adage that 2 wrongs do not make a right. And one more thing. Do you think that any of the victims families felt any sense of peace once those individiuals had their own lives ended. I can only speak from my own personal experience, and that answer is an unequivocal NO!!!!! So, if you have had a family member of your own brutally murdered and can honestly say you feel differently then perhaps we can reach an understanding. I can only speak from my own experience. I have not had a moments peace since that horrid day on September 29, 1980 when my dear dear cousin (who was more a brother to me) was found dead and rotting in a ditch on interstate I95 in Fayetteville North Carolina. He was bound, gagged and shot 5 times in the head execution style. So, tell me. What is your personal experience with this hot topic? |
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You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' ! I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN | |
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| Reverend Dave | Dec 18 2006, 05:20 AM Post #71 |
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I may regret getting into this, but what's life without a little bungee jumping? The Bible does specifically say that killing is wrong. It also says that we should obey the laws of the land, so there can sometimes be a conflict there if the law of the land allows killing. On a more specific level, when I served on jury duty in Califonia my faith in the judicial system was completely shattered. The other jurors wanted nothing more than to go home. One juror even said she'd vote whichever way would get her home sooner. When they were picking us jurors, the man who sat next to me after he was chosen smiled and whispered, "Let 'em fry". The very first thing said in the deliberation room was, "Do we even have to talk about this? Guilty. I gotta go to work." This was not a capital case, but the potential punishment was severe. A man's life was in the hands of 12 people who mostly hated him for interrupting their routine. This was not even a clear case of guilt. It was basically one person's word against another's. This was a case that should have been discussed by us jurors thouroughly. We should have deliberated, as juries are supposed to. Instead we argued about going home. Prospective jurors on a capital case are asked if they could hand out the death penalty if the defendant is found guilty. If they say no, they are excused. The system basically only allows for people who are pro-death penalty to sit on capital trials. If that's not bias, I don't know what is. If the death penalty is a deterrent, why does Texas – which executes more people than any other state – have almost more murders than any other state? If they execute the most people, shouldn't they have the least murders? Most people who murder are not psychologically qualified to care whether they live or die. In most killings, the consequences of the act are an afterthought. How do you deter against something when the people doing it don't care what happens to them or don't think about it until it's too late? This doesn't mean there should be no punishments. There should be severe punishments for severe crimes, but if you think the punishment is a deterrent, you're ignoring violent psychology. Instead of worrying about the costs of executing people versus building more prisons, maybe we should start worrying about educating people and giving children loving environments so they don't grow up feeling hopeless and rejected. I think it's time we try to create a world where murder is the extreme rarity, not a political issue. |
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With great power comes great responsibility. With great age.... What was I going to say? | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 05:47 AM Post #72 |
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The death penalty is the ONLY guarantee they don't kill again. |
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| JeffLynnesBeard | Dec 18 2006, 06:37 AM Post #73 |
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Wonderful post, Dave - thank you. |
| ...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. | |
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| Dorfliedot | Dec 18 2006, 06:44 AM Post #74 |
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The only one who has right to judge and make that choice over life or death is god. Jesus.. Mstthew 5:38-45 38 “YOU heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ 39 However, I say to YOU: Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him. 40 And if a person wants to go to court with you and get possession of your inner garment, let your outer garment also go to him; 41 and if someone under authority impresses you into service for a mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one asking you, and do not turn away from one that wants to borrow from you [without interest]. 43 “YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous |
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| JanaW | Dec 18 2006, 06:45 AM Post #75 |
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Excellent post Reverend Dave. You said it far better than I could ever say it. Thank you. |
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If slaughterhouses had glass walls the whole world would be vegetarian. Linda McCartney | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 01:04 PM Post #76 |
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why don't you read posts? |
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| Bill | Dec 18 2006, 01:10 PM Post #77 |
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Says who? If the judicial and penal system worked as it should, then life imprisonment would mean the same. Stop embracing the possibility of failure as justification for not trying.
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 01:11 PM Post #78 |
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I can show you plenty , dear boy, i'll take you to liverpool and ulster anytime. |
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| Bill | Dec 18 2006, 01:13 PM Post #79 |
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Explain yourself.
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 01:13 PM Post #80 |
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actually no locking them up does not deter them from killing, they killing other prisoners ( or do they not count in your moral perspective ). |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 01:17 PM Post #81 |
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Society. By the way self defense has no grounding in Christianity, some moral values you have. |
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| Bill | Dec 18 2006, 01:20 PM Post #82 |
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Well I'm a member of society. Can I go and kill someone now? See what an absurd and circular argument that is? I've already dealt with the possibility of killing other prisoners - that's a flaw in the penal system. But if you want to pointscore on moral codes, why care about prisoners being murdered? I never said they didn't count and I don't know how you made that leap. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 01:23 PM Post #83 |
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And if Communism worked it'd be the worldwide political system of choice. Maybe we gave up on it too quickly? When a person is in jail, there is ample chance to kill again, be it guards, other in- mates or "calling shots" from inside. I don't want the penalty doled out all willy-nilly. It's only for the worst of the worst. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 01:30 PM Post #84 |
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But you are quite prepared to allow the killing of 500 innocents. now to me that is some value system you have, why because i would put in place as many fail safes as i could to minimise the lost of innocent life you would allow the inexplicable rise to continue. sh*t what a word when i have just awaken. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 01:35 PM Post #85 |
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well maybe if you looked out of your window ( metaphorically you are in Australia) and had a look at other societies, you wouldn't utter such rubbish. there are several societies were you can go and kill someone. the leap is obvious for the opportunity to kill again is still there. please refer to Naomi Bryant if you want to know about opportunities to kill again. |
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| Bill | Dec 18 2006, 01:37 PM Post #86 |
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I dont' accept the analogy. Communism failed because of human frailty. Power corrupts. Which leads us nicely to your last point about the worst of the worst - that's what they said about the prisoners in Guantanamo. David Hicks was caught guarding a tank. Work that out! :hmm: The power to take a life - any life - is a huge thing. And as communism has taught us, power corrupts, no matter how noble the intent. |
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| Bill | Dec 18 2006, 01:44 PM Post #87 |
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Peter, calm down mate! Where did I say anything about being happy to allow 500 murders? What was that about reading posts? I have kept my comments to things you have actually said, not my own reimaginings of them. It's a completely ridiculous claim that executing people would save others. Show me anyone who is alive today because someone else was executed. Nobody can because the argument is entirely theoretical. I'm not suggesting for a moment that the penal system is perfect, but that's not an excuse to go killing people. The argument for the death penalty is always a self defeating arguement. As for British justice, you've run out of continents to plunder, so you're going to have to work something out.
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 01:51 PM Post #88 |
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The analogy works fine. It's the human condition that can't be trusted in either scenario. David Hicks was sentenced to die? |
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| Bill | Dec 18 2006, 01:59 PM Post #89 |
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No, he hasn't been brought to trial yet. My point is that the Guantanamo prisoners are labelled the worst of the worst. It's a label that is used to justify all kinds of things that shouldn't be tolerated in a civilised society when it doesn't always fit. Guy who guarded a tank is among the worst of the worst? Who decides who the worst of the worst are? Where do we draw the line? Whither the culture of life? |
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| Dorfliedot | Dec 18 2006, 02:25 PM Post #90 |
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Peter, I know you seen a lot as a cop. and know it most been hard for you. But, I still think you shouldn't kill unless it is self defence.. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 02:32 PM Post #91 |
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Hicks is a nutter. Does he deserve to die? No, maybe not. Will I feel sorry for him? No. He was guarding an Al-Qaeda tank. Who decides? A jury of your peers, based on a strict set of guidelines. It's as fair as anything. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 02:34 PM Post #92 |
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We have had over a hundred murderers that have been released back into the community to kill again, now had they been hanged they wouldn't have killed again. Trying the Home office site for confirmation that is undeniable, but it is a pig of a site. And, anyway most of the embrassing statistics actually come out in written parliamentary answers so as to keep the noise down. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 02:36 PM Post #93 |
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that has nothing to do with it, my life expereinceds before and after that time are more relevant. killing in self defence has no room in the christian belief. i am not a christian. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 02:40 PM Post #94 |
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cheeky b*stards they put murder in the category of " voilenc against the person" but rape is a seperate catergory, why if rape isnt an "violence against the person" i am sodding tony blair. |
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| Bill | Dec 18 2006, 02:41 PM Post #95 |
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Chad, Hicks was guarding an al Qaeda tank from an invading force which breaks absolutely no law and that's why he's been held without charge for five years while they try and invent a law to charge him under. So he gets banged up and described as the worst of the worst when he doesn't have a single victim while Osama goes free. That's all you need to know about what "the worst of the worst" can mean. It's just a label people use to try and defend the indefensible. I think the good reverend has told us all we need to know about the imperfections of the jury system. Peter, Those murderers who re-offended did so because they were released not because they weren't killed. That's my whole point. Holes in the legal and penal systems are NOT justification for legalised homicide. |
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| Dorfliedot | Dec 18 2006, 02:43 PM Post #96 |
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Religion as nothing really to do with this. I was not rise as a christian I had many religion but, was mainly rise by Jehovah witness. and there belief is not to kill or go to war.. Also, They don't believe in exception blood in death matter.. Or christmas , halloween or any that stuff. but, I do Base some of it on the bible. but, mainly what I believe in.. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 02:51 PM Post #97 |
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I prefer the guarantee of a loop rather than a legal system which will always ve financially constricted. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 02:55 PM Post #98 |
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Then Hicks is a bad analogy, right? How about Indiana State Trooper David Camm who killed his wife, son and daughter here locally. There was evidence of the daughter having been molested in the days before her death as well. It's pretty cut and dry that he's "the worst of the worst". And he's the type of person that I have no problem saying deserves to die. I'd gladly make that call. He took two beautiful children to their graves. F*ck 3 hots and a cot for him every day for the rest of his life. F*ck his taxpayer supported free schooling and free TV. F*ck his taxpayer bought free workout equipment and basketball goal. The problem with life in prison is a prisoner adapts. After a while the punishment fades and they go about daily life. You may adapt room temperature as your body temp when the switch is thrown, but you don't adapt to dying. |
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| Bill | Dec 18 2006, 03:10 PM Post #99 |
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Hicks is an illustration of how the slogan "the worst of the worst," is misused. You have eloquantly stated the case for why Camm deserves to die and I have no argument with that. You have not shown me how that gives another the right to kill him. Proponants of the death penalty always focus on the right to live. What is at issue is the right to kill. And I thought we agreed that it's wrong to kill. That's the ethical paradox that can never be got around. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 18 2006, 03:15 PM Post #100 |
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No i disagree with the notion that it is wrong to kill. If one accepts that it is right to kill in self defence how can one say it is wrong to kill. At this moment i want to kill the sod who complied this Home office report and it's tables, deliberately designed to confuse and obfuscate. Damn where is mozzie when i am on a roll. |
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8:21 AM Jul 11