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| 2 Men Who Shouldn't Hunt Together!; unbelievable!! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 1 2006, 02:27 PM (947 Views) | |
| waitingforatrim | Nov 1 2006, 02:27 PM Post #1 |
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2 guys who DEFINITELY should not go hunting together!! Vice President Dick Cheney and Senator (and Presidential hopeful) John Kerry. Cheney because he shoots the people he goes hunting with. Kerry because he keeps shooting himself in the foot!!
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| Deleted User | Nov 1 2006, 02:42 PM Post #2 |
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Very funny.
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| fab4fan | Nov 1 2006, 03:29 PM Post #3 |
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Is there some sort of gene that prevents John Kerry from admitting that he made a mistake and apologizing for it? Yes, Kerry meant to diss Bush. NO DOUBT. But he called all the troops idiots (uneducated, stupid, whatever.) Just apologize to THEM. All his reliving the 2004 election is doing is throwing a life preserver out to SOS the repubs. And by not apologizing and admitting a mistake he is allowing this to be 'the story' leading up to the elections. Its easy to see with his attitude why some of his 'comrades in arms' went to the lengths they did to subvert his candidacy in 2004. |
| Mnisthiti mou Kurie! | |
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| Deleted User | Nov 1 2006, 03:36 PM Post #4 |
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I'll bet you one thing, and that's the press will not hold him accountable like they did Trent Lott, even though it's almost identical circumstances. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 1 2006, 03:39 PM Post #5 |
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Because the press favors democrats, right?
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| BeatleBarb | Nov 1 2006, 03:43 PM Post #6 |
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I guess it's that same gene George Bush has.
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| fab4fan | Nov 1 2006, 03:43 PM Post #7 |
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Absolutely
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| Deleted User | Nov 1 2006, 03:45 PM Post #8 |
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Well...Now that you mention it.... It will be interesting to me to see how this story is handled in the coming 7 days. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 1 2006, 03:50 PM Post #9 |
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One of Kerry's big problems is that he's still bitter over the Swiftboat ads. He spews nastier comments about this administration than anyone else on Capitol Hill does, in my opinion. And by not apologizing, he gave the GOP a loaded cannon for them to use. |
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| fab4fan | Nov 1 2006, 03:53 PM Post #10 |
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I know how it should be handled. John Kerry should say the words "I'm sorry" to the troops. Then this story goes away. Simple. |
| Mnisthiti mou Kurie! | |
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| Deleted User | Nov 1 2006, 03:57 PM Post #11 |
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I'd like to see him get "Lotted". |
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| waitingforatrim | Nov 1 2006, 04:50 PM Post #12 |
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That's exactly who he needs to apologize to. I'm not a Kerry fan, so he's my best buddy this week!! He may have handed the Republicans the means of keeping control of House AND Senate! |
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| Deleted User | Nov 1 2006, 06:03 PM Post #13 |
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Somebody wanna tell me where his apology is? "I'm sorry I botched a joke." doesn't cut it with me. He's such an arrogant pr*ck. Kerry's "apology" on Imus in the Morning |
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| BlueMolly2009 | Nov 1 2006, 07:48 PM Post #14 |
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John Kerry is like one of those kids who gets caught doing something they weren't supposed to, and he keeps saying, "I didn't do it." John Kerry is suffering what some people call, "Foot in Mouth" disease. He's not going to aplogize, because in his mind he thinks he didn't say anything bad. |
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Molly Myspace My Twitter My FriendFeed My Facebook ![]() Boston Chihuahuas (I took this while at a Starbucks) | |
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| beatlechick | Nov 2 2006, 02:36 AM Post #15 |
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In Paul's Arms!
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With one exception, one is the leader of the free world and shows it all the time. Do I think Kerry should apologize? Probably but let me say this, Cheney should apologize for making his comment about dunking in water and not saying that we torture. This debate more than goes 2 ways. And the latest ads from the RNC to scare voters to vote their way is ridiculous and shameful - RNC campaign videos. |
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| fab4fan | Nov 2 2006, 04:15 AM Post #16 |
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Cathy, No disrespect (I learned that from Andy, an incredibly patient chap, you may have heard of him ) but how does an advertisement that puts the words of our enemies on the screen qualify as being described as "ridiculous and shameful?"John |
| Mnisthiti mou Kurie! | |
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| Bill | Nov 2 2006, 05:31 AM Post #17 |
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You think that's exlcusive to Kerry? How many people are dead because of his mistakes? Too easy!
When you consider how much money the RNC paid for some of them to change their stories, yes, it's very easy. What's with the controversy here? What was wrong about what he said? How many Harvard graduates are serving in Iraq right now? How many golden boys with powerful fathers are there? And how many kids are their risking their lives in the hope that having been through this, they might just get to earn some of the privelege that certains others I could name get handed to them without any effort at all? They talk about a volunteer force. When the options are the army or homelessness, that kind of narrows the definition of "volunteer." Is this all the Republicans have got a week before the election?
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| Bill | Nov 2 2006, 05:36 AM Post #18 |
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Because of the implication inherant in them. The corolloary of all Republican advertising is, "Vote for us or DIE!!!" Again I ask, is that all they've got? What does it say about a party that they cannot give one positive reason to vote for them? All they can do is try to scare the sh*t out of people. That's what i call shameful. |
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| fab4fan | Nov 2 2006, 06:15 AM Post #19 |
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The answer is a lot less than if he had been elected and in power. Is 'Too Easy' Australian for touche or something like that?
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| fab4fan | Nov 2 2006, 06:23 AM Post #20 |
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Okay here is one. Using the same economic indicators that had the democrats claiming the worst economy since Herbert Hoover and the depression, those same indicators now show an economy as good as any stretch EVER in the history of the United States. (Okay I oversold, but we were golden when President Clinton's economy had these almost comparable numbers -- they are a little better now. )Too easy! Now comes the hard part. Tell me one thing the democrats got, any subject. Your turn. |
| Mnisthiti mou Kurie! | |
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| beatlechick | Nov 2 2006, 07:34 AM Post #21 |
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Exactly, Bill. Why scare voters to vote the way you want them to unless you feel you don't have a leg to stand on and can only go this route. I say apologize to those of us who can, and do, think for ourselves for this ad is an insult. John and Chad, tell me.......what do the Republicans have that would make me, a thinking voter, want to vote for them? Subject, give any subject to convince me to vote Republican!! I am not exactly a Democrat who would only vote party lines, I vote for my feelings and whomever I think would best suit me, my family, and my friends views. I know there are some Republicans out there that may be worthy of my vote but I have yet to see any. BTW, Kerry did apologize
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| Bill | Nov 2 2006, 07:46 AM Post #22 |
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I'm not here to defend the Democrats, but it's clear that in the advertising stakes, they take the high road. And then there's the really subversive idea of not reducing income while increasing spending. Better to tax and spend than borrow and spend. Healthcare for everyone? That's a novel idea. And it's the hight of hypocrisy to shitcan the Dems for not knowing how to improve Iraq when the Republicans dont' know either and it was their idea! That's just off the top of my head. Of course, the most compelling thing they've got going for them is the fact that they won't be a rubber stamp for the incompetents in the White House. Obstruction is good if you're obstructing a dilution of democracy and freedom. |
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| Bill | Nov 2 2006, 07:50 AM Post #23 |
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And do you know what I think is really shameful? John Kerry makes an insensitive but intellectually defensible comment and the right wing bays for blood. George Bush says "Stay the course," like a mantra for three years, then turns around and says, "We've never been 'stay the course,'" and the right wing doesn't bat an eyelid! Is this Nineteen Eighty-Four or what? :rolleyes: Evidently, making ill-advised statements is forgivable so long as you do it ona daily basis, but not if you do it once or twice a year. |
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| mozart8mytoe | Nov 2 2006, 07:50 AM Post #24 |
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How is that? Senator Kerry attacked President Bush, albeit quite ineffectively, and alluded that servicemen are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Senator Lott praised Senator Thurmond and alluded that his support of segregation was good for the country. I thought the entire Lott media frenzy was overkill, as is this current Kerry frenzy, but other than that, how are they almost identical circumstances? And if the press is not holding Kerry accountable, why are we now talking about it? Why is it front page news?
This election sucked. The Republican motto was, Vote for us or the terrofacists will kill you. The Democratic motto was, Vote for us or the Republofacists will kill you. Neither side had anything positive to contribute. Neither side had any new ideas or any plan to make anything better. I already voted and I am pretty p*ssed at the poor choices I had. |
| Nurse, I spy gypsies. Run. | |
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| waitingforatrim | Nov 2 2006, 02:11 PM Post #25 |
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OK, Kerry has "apologized". But his wording is weird....he apologizes if his words were "misinterpreted". If you take his callous, stupid statement verbatim, there's no other way to interpret it. The fact that he left a word out of his "joke" changes the whole meaning of his "joke". He's still my best buddy today. He may have saved next week's election for quite a few Republicans!!
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| Deleted User | Nov 2 2006, 02:38 PM Post #26 |
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| fab4fan | Nov 2 2006, 03:32 PM Post #27 |
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Ah yes, another John Kerry, I'm smarter than you peons comment. ![]() I see a pattern here. What do you say my fella hick hoosier from Indianer?
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| fab4fan | Nov 2 2006, 04:04 PM Post #28 |
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Bill you're using the same old tired Reagan-era criticisms of tax cuts. The reality is, now as then, REVENUES ARE UP! If we don't put people in charge to screw it up by raising taxes we'll eat our way out of this defecit like we did Reagan's "burden on our children." Talk about hypocrites, Bill Clinton goes around the country saying he didn't need the $80,000 he got back because of the tax cuts. He could have given it back to the government. There is an IRS form to give money to the Treasury. When I hear about a DEM using that form I'll let you know. No one in the US, repeat no one in the US is refused health care if they walk into an emergency room or a county hospital. County hospital its free. As far as shitcanning the DEMS for not having a plan, they do have a plan. Pick up and leave. That is not a "thinking" option.
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| Deleted User | Nov 2 2006, 07:21 PM Post #29 |
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Reasons to vote Republican? Lower taxes, low unemployment, a plan to help homeless people that got great write-ups in the press, millions in AIDS research money, the past housing boon, the stock market, Medicare reform, the option of privatizing your Social Security, etc. And yes, Kerry did apologize. But only after he was basically forced to. He drug his ass on it until it was too late. The funny thing to me is that the apology to the soldiers came only hours after the photo of the Marines with the sign went 'round the world in a flash. Co-inkydink? Nah. |
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| BlueMolly2009 | Nov 2 2006, 07:49 PM Post #30 |
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Geez, noone has brought up that some of the Democrats are backing away from "Mr Shoot at the Mouth" Kerry. But of course, some of the Democrats are going to shoot at the mouth that those who don't back Kerry aren't true Democrats. This is coming from a person who is not a Republican or Democrat, I'm just wishy washy moderate. |
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Molly Myspace My Twitter My FriendFeed My Facebook ![]() Boston Chihuahuas (I took this while at a Starbucks) | |
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| Bill | Nov 3 2006, 02:05 AM Post #31 |
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If revenues are up, explain to be how Bush turned a record surplus into a record deficit and who is going to pay for it. Please note that I answered your question. I note that you dodged Beatlechick's. One good reason please - backed up with facts and not fearmongering. |
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| Bill | Nov 3 2006, 02:11 AM Post #32 |
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But Chad, what about the fact that Kerry was demeaning Bush and not the troops with his comment? And the fact that he caved in to the Republican misrepresentation of his comments? Frankly, if what Kerry said had been the worst thing that Bush had done in the last two years, I'd be a big fan. If the troops want to get upset about something, someone ought to play them Bush saying that they've never been 'stay the course,' after years of telling everyone to support the troops by staying the course. |
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| fab4fan | Nov 3 2006, 02:50 AM Post #33 |
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Oh I have to laugh...not at you Bill, you obviously don't have access to all campaigning in the U.S. Here is a link to an ad played on WLS-AM Chicago, a radio station heard in 38 states and Canada. Ad for Rep candidate in Ohio |
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| fab4fan | Nov 3 2006, 02:53 AM Post #34 |
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I see you found Chad's reply after you queried me. Good thing, I'm still waiting for Bill O'Reilly to answer my e-mail and tell me what I think.
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| fab4fan | Nov 3 2006, 02:55 AM Post #35 |
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delete |
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| beatlechick | Nov 3 2006, 03:34 AM Post #36 |
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Thanks Chad for being man enough to actually answer my question and not make an uneducated comment. Your answers are pretty good however, from where I sit they aren't good enough especially on the AIDS front, something I am well educated on (to educated and experienced on). I don't play the stock market, don't make enough money, the homeless problem is ever growing here in California (we now have about a tenth of our population homeless in my hometown that only had like 1 for many many years) and especially in Los Angeles (try walking in any street downtown and not hit one within a few feet of any building). Housing? That's a joke! To many people are buying houses that they can't afford after a couple of years. I can never afford to buy a house, my boyfriend owns it but could never sell it because he can never afford to buy another one. We live in an area where the average 2-3 bedroom house of about 1200 sq ft runs at half a million dollars. As for the joke known as Medicare, not a very funny one at that. Every politician believes they can reform it yet it only gets worse. My boyfriend is on Medicare and I work for a company that deals with Medicare everyday. He has had one operation this year and pretty much needs a more serious one now but can't get it because he is only allowed one a year. The one he had earlier this year, a linguinal hernia, they kicked him out of the hospital the next day (not even 24 hours after the surgery) due to Medicare restraints. Yeah, good reform we have here. I am hearing from both Dems and Repub politicians in my state that privatizing SSI may not be the best approach but that idea started about the time Clinton took office not during the current administration. Sorry, for you guys these reasons may be good but for me they aren't good enough. Nice try, Chad. At least you made a good attempt. As for that picture, this is the first time I am seeing it and I was on the internet until late in the night. Good, funny picture. |
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| mozart8mytoe | Nov 3 2006, 04:00 AM Post #37 |
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This is easy. The surplus was turned into a deficit by spending more money than the government earned. That is basic math. Who will pay for it? Future generations. Not my problem. When Antarctica melts and the creditors come to collect, I will be living in a colony on Mars and drinking astromargaritas. |
| Nurse, I spy gypsies. Run. | |
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| mozart8mytoe | Nov 3 2006, 04:18 AM Post #38 |
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Voting Democratic or Republican has nothing to do with intelligence. There are some highly intelligent people on both sides. And some amazingly stupid people on both sides. How we vote is most often from a standpoint of emotion, economy, family or regional tradition, and sometimes, though not often, on the belief that a particular candidate might actually be the best person for the job. Unfortunately, our choices are not often that great. My options for US Senator this year: John Spencer, a misogynist who is not ever supported by his own party and who never stood a Chinaman's chance of winning. And Hillary Clinton. |
| Nurse, I spy gypsies. Run. | |
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| fab4fan | Nov 3 2006, 04:23 AM Post #39 |
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Is it just me or do the democratic leaning supporters on here seem to have lost their sense of humor to anyone else here? |
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| mozart8mytoe | Nov 3 2006, 04:31 AM Post #40 |
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Democrats have a wonderful sense of humor. Remember Bill Clinton? |
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| Bill | Nov 3 2006, 04:35 AM Post #41 |
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Okay, I deserve that. But you and Chad are not clones. How would YOU convince an open minded voter to vote Republican without resorting to scaremongering? Regarding the ads, I can't believe the one you posted was even allowed on the air. :angry: However, I would point out that the ad does not carry the endorsement of the DNC the way the Republican party lend their support to hateful attack ads and then claim it was nothing to do with them when they get called out on it.
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| Bill | Nov 3 2006, 04:43 AM Post #42 |
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I knew there had to be a logical explanation! :lol: Regarding tax cuts, I'm not arguing the fact that Reagan's tax cuts increased revenue. And yes, so did Kennedy's. But as I have already pointed out, you will reach a point where tax cuts do not increase revenue. There will be a medium. Otherwise, if you follow the tax cut logic through, reducing tax to .01% will result in a $100 trillion increase in revenue. But that's not going to happen, is it? To keep repeating the mantra of "tax cuts increase revenue" is intellectually bankrupt. Smarter people than me can work out where the medium is but I wouldn't want to find out by accident. And while we're on it, WHO finally turned Reagan's deficit into a surplus? I'll give you two guesses. Two, because the answer is twofold: a democratic White House and Republican congress. Each avoided the other's excesses and the result was responsible fiscal management. That is a check and balance that America has been without for the last six years and you don't need me to tell you what came of it.
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| fab4fan | Nov 3 2006, 05:08 AM Post #43 |
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Bill, The current deficit came about because: 1) The economy is cyclical. 2) Federal policy was changed and taxes were increased. 3) Monetary policy was changed (MORE important than Federal policy) and interest rates were raised. 4) 9/11 Intellectually bankrupt or not it is a fact that there is a balance between tax cuts and tax hikes. On a percentage basis of GNP Bush's tax cuts were less than either Reagan's or Kennedy's (the largest on a % basis.) I know that is really simplistic but it seems to me there is some room for these tax cuts to continue. Curbing some spending would be good but right now the biggest increase in expenditures by the current administration have been in education and defense. Obviously none of us have a problem with education. In terms of defense, forgive me for believing it to be prudent given the statements of our enemies. Its okay to make the stretch that the groundwork has been laid out for a 1984 scenario (which isn't fear-mongering seeing as it hasn't happened in U.S. history) but it is fearmongering to think that some nuts unchecked for 10 years might, I dunno, turn into the 21st Century reincarnation of the Nazi party. As far as check and balances go there have been in my 47 years: 16 years of democrats in complete control 25 years of split-control 6 years of republicans in complete control I think we'd be just fine with 2 more years of Republican control.
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| fab4fan | Nov 3 2006, 05:15 AM Post #44 |
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Free speech! How long do you think it will take O'Reilly's staff to get that one on the Factor? :rolleyes: |
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| Bill | Nov 3 2006, 05:25 AM Post #45 |
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But why do you think that? You're not convincing me. I know things changed on Sept 11. You don't usually cut taxes at a time of war. Of all the things that got thrown out as a result of that, including privacy and due process, what was so sacred about tax cuts that they had to be delivered even when the nation was under attack? I never said the balance was intellectually bankrupt. That's not what I said at all. What I said was that it's intellectually bankrupt to automatically assume that any tax cut is going to result in a revenue gain. Stores get more sales when they lower their prices, but it only makes them more money if they keep their prices above their overheads. The trouble with tax cuts is that when politicians offer them, peole vote for them as a knee jerk reaction, not realising that it's THEIR shop that's going to close down if they can't meet the operating expenses, which keep going up and up under this manager. Cyclical economy? So you're saying that the blowout in deficits under Republican presidents and the control of the deficit under a Democrat is pure coincidence? Makes you wonder what they do all day. Curbing spending would be good. But who's going to do it when you've got Republicans controlling all levels of government? You say in one paragraph that spending should be curbed but in the next you say that another two years (is that all? :lol: ) of total Republican control would be just fine. I do see how the two statements can coexist. Not hounding you, just trying to understand your logic. I don't know who you're talking about turning into the 21st century Nazi party, but I do know that there is nothing left to stop president Bush from declaring you an illegal combatant and having you shipped off the Guantanamo to rot. Now you may well say, It ain't gonna happen, and I wouold agree with you. But what is there to stop him other than his own (rather dubious) self-control? And don't forget that every subsequent president will have that power too. You may be happy for Bush to wield it, but come and talk to me when you have a president you don't like and then you'll be scared! It's a bit like those mushroom clouds over Chicago. I don't think it's ever going to happen. But that's not enough. You have to ensure that it can't happen. And the way to do that is to secure the nation, not to go invading countries and inventing enemies and shitting yourself any time some cave-dweller makes a video that's basically the equivalent of a drunken rant. |
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| Bill | Nov 3 2006, 05:28 AM Post #46 |
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I love free speech, but it didn't stop NBC refusing to air the ad for the Dixie Chicks' movie. Hey wait a minute, I thought NBC were Liberofascists! (™M8MT)
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| beatlechick | Nov 3 2006, 06:24 AM Post #47 |
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Well said! My choices this year for governor is someone I have no respect for, Ahhnie, and someone else I have no respect for, someone that my party is endorsing but I can not vote for. My real choice, neither. I will not cast my ballot for either of them but will write in for someone who is a much better choice, Mickey Mouse!! Not doing it to be funny but doing it to make a point. This is how politics is becoming cartoonish characters who have little interest in serving their public, though I've got to hand it to Ahhnie he did learn some humility from last years debacle of a special election that he orchestrated to push his agenda. An agenda that flamed to defeat. And John, Democrats DO have a sense of humor. Bush is in office right? We are laughing so hard we are crying. I did ask an earnest and honest question that you pushed aside <_< but Chad tried to answer.
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| mozart8mytoe | Nov 3 2006, 06:38 AM Post #48 |
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Neither party has a monopoly on negative campaign ads. In 1856 the Democrats used scare tactics against John Fremont, the first Republican presidential candidate. They said that if a Republican won, the South would secede. Turns out they were right. In 1864 the Republicans attacked the Democrats for wanting "peace without victory". The Democrats attacked the Republicans for prolonging a bloody war. The "Radical Republicans" attacked both for being too soft and insisted that the South be demolished at all costs. Why does this sound familiar? In 1872, one Republican cartoon showed the Democratic candidate, Horace Greeley, handing a black man over to the KKK to be lynched while a black mother and child lay dead in the background. Another cartoon had Greeley shaking hands with John Wilkes Booth over Lincoln's grave. One Republican ad campaign in 1876: "Not every Democrat was a Rebel, but every Rebel was a Democrat." One Democratic ad said that Rutherford Hayes had shot his own mother. When Democrat Samuel Tilden publicly denounced the negative attacks by both sides, the Republicans charged that he was a drunk with syphilis. In 1896, The New York Times published articles by several psychologists "proving" that Democrat William Jennings Bryan was mentally imbalanced, though none agreed on an exact diagnosis. In 1900, Democrats complained that 41 year old Theodore Roosevelt was too young to be Vice President, should he have to take office (a valid concern, all things considered), despite the fact that Democratic candidate William Bryan was only 40. The 1928 campaign saw the first Catholic presidential candidate. Protestant ministers warned their congregations that Al Smith would have all Protestant marriages annulled, thus making all Protestant children illegitimate. Many even told their flock that a vote for Smith was a vote against Jesus and cause for eternal damnation. One of the more amusing attacks against Smith was that he was going to develop the new Holland Tunnel in New York so that it could reach the Vatican, although most voters saw this as highly improbable. On election day, Smith won 8 states and Hoover won 40. In 1960, former President Harry Truman said that anyone who voted for Nixon "deserved to go to hell". Kennedy suggested that Truman "try to refrain from raising the religious issue." In 1964, one of the most powerful campaign commercials ever produced shows a little girl sitting innocently in a field plucking a flower to the sound of a countdown. As the last petal falls, a mushroom cloud fills the screen and an excerpt from a Johnson speech calls for peace. The message was clear, a vote for Goldwater was a vote for nuclear war. Johnson immediately demanded the commercial be withdrawn, but the image remained, and was the first campaign ad I thought of when I started writing all of this. The Democrats had a series of negative attack ads planned for 1972, but after the Watergate break in at their national headquarters, the Republicans were fully prepared to counter every Democratic move. Not surprisingly, Nixon won in a landslide. In 1980, Democrats pointed out that Reagan had very little previous political experience (only two terms as a governor), despite the fact that before becoming President, Carter only had one term as a governor and one term as a state senator. In 1988 Republicans produced the Willie Horton ads. The message was simple, a vote for Dukakis was a vote for murderous rapists. In 1992, Republicans declared that a draft-dodging pot smoking hillbilly was unfit to be President, especially when the opponent was a decorated war hero. By 2000 they changed their minds. |
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| Bill | Nov 3 2006, 01:09 PM Post #49 |
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Cute point, but it means that whatever goes wrong in California is your fault. Even faced with terrible choices, it's the voter's duty to choose the lesser of two evils. Otherwise, you waive all right to complain about anything. I always said in the 2004 election that I don't blame the people who voted for Bush. They got what they deserved (and you can take that any way you like Fab! )No, I blame those who didn't vote against him. Even if all the options suck, you can choose whether to be part of the problem or part of the solution. People who don't vote, or throw their vote away, are no threat to politicians because they have chosen not to count. Why surrender the power you have over them? |
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| Bill | Nov 3 2006, 02:51 PM Post #50 |
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Of course, there is one positive thing to come out of this ad, Perhaps now that the shoe is on the other foot, the right wing might realise how ugly and undignified it is to cry "treason!" and "traitor!" at anyone who disagrees with their politics for any reason.
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| Deleted User | Nov 3 2006, 03:20 PM Post #51 |
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I've noticed it a tad.
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| Deleted User | Nov 3 2006, 08:10 PM Post #52 |
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But I thought tax cuts would drive up unemployment?? Jobless claims fall to five year low |
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| Bill | Nov 4 2006, 01:39 AM Post #53 |
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There's lots of work available in New Orleans. |
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| ogoble | Nov 4 2006, 01:50 AM Post #54 |
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True, but as a veteran of war myself, Kerry has now lost all the respect I didn't have for him already. |
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| Bill | Nov 4 2006, 01:57 AM Post #55 |
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So how do you feel about John Boehner blaming the generals in Iraq for the mess rather than Rumsfeld, their boss? |
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| fab4fan | Nov 4 2006, 02:42 AM Post #56 |
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Hey Cathy, My fragile male psyche was wounded when you insinuated I wasn't a 'thinking voter.' :rolleyes: Then it was shattered when you questioned my 'testicular verility.' Luckily, my mommy called me on the way home tonight and I stopped by and picked up a favorite meal, keftedes (greek meatballs.) So tonight I'm just sipping an Ouzo and eating my keftedes and soothing my fractured self by just reading these pages for the next couple of days. Of course I'll be on here to congratulate you and your fellow Dems on your anticipated landslide victories on Tuesday. Just gonna recharge my jets for the Anybody But Hilary campaign that begins on Wednesday. (I'll offer a 2 for 1 trade. You guys don't nominate anyone named Clinton(Hilary) and we won't nominate anyone named Bush(Jeb.) Then we'll throw in Cheney for free.)
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| Bill | Nov 4 2006, 02:55 AM Post #57 |
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Speaking as someone who would be glad to see a reduction in Republican power, I hereby promise that IF the Dems win control of either house, there will be NO in-yer-face triumphalism from me the way there was fromthe Republicans in 2004. Anyone else want to join me? PS: John, are you saying Saddam Hussein is in with a chance? :lol: |
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| ogoble | Nov 4 2006, 03:16 AM Post #58 |
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Well, IMO, ultimate blame falls on our commander-in-chief. The "mess" in Iraq has been brought on because the U.S. has overstayed their welcome in their country. After the toppling of Saddam, we should have set up a strict timeline for helping them: -establish a government of their choice, -build up and train their Army to combat terrorism, -and repair damages done by the U.S. when we invaded their country. -then LEAVE! IMO, our troops should have been sent home a long long time ago. The longer we stay, the more resentment they feel towards our country. And instead of us being regarded as the heros that we were for ending Saddam's Tyranny, we are now viewed as the Tyrants ourselves. We should let the Iraqi people be Iraqis and quit believing that we can make them change and start living & thinking like we do here in America. |
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| Bill | Nov 5 2006, 03:06 AM Post #59 |
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Thank you Olen. It's interesting that you go one step further. I think the jury is still out on who is controlling who between Bush and Rumsfeld. In any case, I should have put the comment in context:
So in essence, what he seems to be saying is that it's the generals on the ground who are to blame for the situation in Iraq, not the executive. Bush claims to take advice from the generals, but the generals take orders from Bush and Rumsfeld. The reason I bring this up is because Kerry is getting villified for making a lame joke about Bush that was deliberatly misconstrued as a slur against the troops. The House majority leader made a much more overt slur against the troops a few days earlier and nobody said a thing. It all seems a little weird to me. I had to laugh when Bush quoted Kerry's just against him verbatim. I did lose respect for John Kerry this week. Not because of what he said initially, but because he caved in to the misrepresentation of his comment. That's the worst thing about the Democrats; they always internalise the Republicans' bullying. |
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| fab4fan | Nov 5 2006, 05:21 AM Post #60 |
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Deliberately misconstrued? This from someone who parsed a 20 some-odd minute rant by Rush Limbaugh to 2 highlighted sentences to prove :rolleyes: that that was ALL that Rush had said and meant? Now you have 1 sentence from a guy and you're gonna dream up words he never said and say that is what he meant to say. Really Bill, you buying that? There are a lot of us who believe what came straight from the horse's mouth! |
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| fab4fan | Nov 5 2006, 05:57 AM Post #61 |
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Olen, Thank you for you well thought out opinion and for being man enough to state it. I agree with some of what you said, in terms of who ultimately is responsible for things not having gone as well as they should have and the rules for the plan after Saddam was removed. The timeline I felt was unrealistic for the goals to be achieved before we leave. As for being viewed as tyrants, I agree that is how the insurgents (have we all agreed that's what we'll call them or do we need that trademark thingy and a -ofacists added to it to satisfy all parties) view us but I think we still have the peace-loving common folk, the huge majority. Your last statement I take exception with. I don't see it as Americans trying to tell Iraqi's how to live and think like us. It's how we act out our differences about how we live and think. Now that I just disagreed with you you're not gonna drive from Alabama to Chicago to come and behead me. You might respond and challenge, you might ignore me, hell you might flip me the bird. (make sure there are no kids around ) That's all we're trying to get them to do. Put your guns, knives and swords down and figure out a way of divying up enough oil so that every man, woman and child can live comfortably and then each one of you can go to the mosque of your choice. For God's sake these people are killing each other over how they dress and pray to the same Mohammed. Most Americans stopped doing that a long time ago. (for the majority here, in America, that means Jesus.) But that is unimportant. Whether its Jesus, Mohammed, Yahweh, Buddha or nobody just stop killing!I don't know if anyone saw it but last week CNN showed what they called an insurgent propaganda video. In it they showed an insurgent sniper lining up an American soldier. They stopped showing the tape at the moment the sniper fired his shot that blew out the American's brains. We have an orthodontist in town who collects Halloween candy from the kids in town. He pays two bucks a pound for rock candy, no chocolate, stuff that travels well. Last year he collected 800 pounds of candy. Then he paid to ship it to the troops so they could pass it out to Iraqi children. Watch the propaganda tape. You'll see that the American who had his head blown off was walking amongst Iraqi kids. He was handing them stuff. I wonder if it was any of the candy my kids sent to the kids in Iraq? :angry: |
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| Bill | Nov 5 2006, 06:21 AM Post #62 |
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Kerry's story is that he mis-spoke and meant to say, "You get US stuck in Iraq." It may have been what he meant to say, but it wasn't and he has no-one to blame but himself. However, I'm sure Bush didn't mean to say, "They never stop thinking of ways to hurt Americans, and neither do we." Bush said he never stops thinking of ways to hurt Americans. Do you think that's what he really meant? If so, then why aren't you campaigning against him? If not, then you've got to give Kerry a pass too.
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| Dorfliedot | Nov 5 2006, 06:25 AM Post #63 |
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Bush said That? That is hick of funny.I say he choose his words wrong.
:lol:
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| Bill | Nov 5 2006, 06:26 AM Post #64 |
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Not true Fab. The soldier survived. |
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| fab4fan | Nov 5 2006, 06:45 AM Post #65 |
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Seriously? The guy was shot in the head by a sniper and survived? Well that changes everything about my story.
The guy is luckier than Lazarus. |
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| Bill | Nov 5 2006, 06:55 AM Post #66 |
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I just thought you were saying the guy had been killed. Misunderstandings can happen. Sorry about mine. Without wanting to sound callous, regardless of what he was doing at the time, he was part of an invading force, and there are those who want to repel that invasion. That's what happens in a war. If you had the enemy in your sights, under what circumstances would you not fire? War is hell. We would all do well to remember that.
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| fab4fan | Nov 5 2006, 07:08 AM Post #67 |
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I really didn't know. I still think the report said he had been, but I hope you're right. Wouldn't that be invade-ofacists(tm)? Is it fair to call a military force that is staying at the behest of the newly freed until they can protect themselves invaders or occupiers? I mean most of the troops are being used for training the Iraqi military and for rebuilding. If the new Iraqi government wants us to leave tomorrow I doubt Bush or anyone else in the administration would tell them no. Just for the record everybody did hear the Iraqi PM say he expects to be able to enforce self-rule within 3 years. I say we give it to him. Finally an Iraqi with a backbone! One who understands that to have peace in Iraq it must be the Iraqis who expel the insurgents. |
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| Dorfliedot | Nov 5 2006, 07:11 AM Post #68 |
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I am just glad I didn't see that on the news. I would had nightmares.
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| fab4fan | Nov 5 2006, 07:13 AM Post #69 |
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Hey Dorothy I just realized I stole your avatar. SORRY. (your's is better) |
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| Dorfliedot | Nov 5 2006, 07:21 AM Post #70 |
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Cool! Thank You. If you want to steal it go head. |
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| Bill | Nov 5 2006, 01:01 PM Post #71 |
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It's just a simple statement of fact. The government that troops are there are the behest of is the same government that grew out of elections set up by the invading invading force, so that's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. When I say "invading forces," there's no moral subtext to that. We can spend the rest of our lives arguing the rights and wrongs of the invasion, but the inescapable fact is that US forces are invaders and occupiers of the country. So put yourself in the sniper's position. A member of an invading force is trying to win the favour of your countrymen's children with candy. You have a clear shot. Do you take it? In the same position, I don't think you'd think twice about it. I feel deeply for the soldier and I hope he survives and makes a full recovery. But we shouldn't act all shocked when people try to repel and invasion. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 5 2006, 07:22 PM Post #72 |
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You make it sound like we're Germany and they're the French Resistance. And just because the terrorists may have that warped and twisted view, it doesn't make it so.
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| Bill | Nov 6 2006, 03:42 AM Post #73 |
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Ah but Chad, you're making a moral judgement about each invasion, Germany invading France=bad, America invading Iraq=good. That's fine if you want to see it that way, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. If someone invaded your country, you would repel them by any and all means possible and you wouldn't give a toss if people fighting alongside you were American, Canadian, Mexican or freelance. Likewise, if you invade another country, expect to be repelled by any and all mean possible. You can't expect the insurgents to just pack up and go away because America are the good guys. It ain't gonna happen. You know far more than me about military history and strategy, so you don't need me to tell you basic facts of warfare.
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| Deleted User | Nov 6 2006, 01:40 PM Post #74 |
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Not if they were going to set me and my family free from oppression. |
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| Bill | Nov 6 2006, 01:55 PM Post #75 |
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Debatable. They may be opressors, but at least they're you're oppressors and you don't have foreigners trying to change things without asking you. That's the current Republican platform isn't it?
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| Deleted User | Nov 6 2006, 02:14 PM Post #76 |
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Debatable up to a point. If you're as oppressed as the Iraqis were, how else would you get out from under it? An outside force is your only chance. Just ask France, Belgium and Holland. We invaded them, too. Remember, we were welcomed by the Iraqi citizens. And the only people you see wanting us out are terrorists and insurgents. We haven't seen the ginormous "Yankees go home" protests by common citizens and I would bet we don't see them anytime soon. Don't blur the line between the insurgents and the general public. The insurgents are not killing us because we are there. They shoot at us because they hate everything we stand for. The fact that we're there is just a convenience for them. |
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| Bill | Nov 6 2006, 02:37 PM Post #77 |
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Oh, I think you're giving us the party line now Chad! Many of the average Iraqis who welcomed the overthrow of Saddam are now turning around and saying, "You still here? And why do we still not have clean water or a reliable electricity source?" There's no analogy with Europe because that was a counter invasion which was obviously preferable to the previous one. And need I remind everyone who let the terrorists in and how? The Iraqis know that too. The operation didn't end with "Mission Accomplished" so you ought to ask some of those Iraqis who welcomed US troops in 2003 how they feel about things right now. There's also the issue of self-respect. How does it feel being beholden to another country? Let's not blur the lines between genuine miscalculations and events that Blind Freddy could have seen coming. All of the insurgent problems were foreseen and all the warnings were ignored. They were ignored by the same people who are still running the war. Someone once said a definition of insanity is doing the same thing expecting a different result. It's too easy to say they hate everything we stand for. Like freedom? Some people have different ideas about what freedom actually is. I think Olen put it best when he said (and I'm paraphrasing because I'm lazy) that it's wrong to expect Iraqis to aspire to having a country like America. You don't have to hate America to object to and fight against its presence in the middle east. Although I grant you, it helps. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 6 2006, 03:16 PM Post #78 |
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It's not a party line, Bill. Where are the videos of thousands of Iraqis screaming at us to leave? Tthere were another 109 villages given clean water about a month ago. Did you expect all 26,000,000 Iraqis to have clean water by now? It's a slow road with thousands of miles of pipe to be ran and hundreds of treatment facilities to be built to replace God knows how many wells. It's not our fault that there were years of neglecting the water system there, and insurgents blow up their own sh*t. And maybe we should just "bring the boys back home" and not worry about the insurgents who have also blown up most of the power grids. I keep asking myself, "Why the hell does someone cripple their own infrastructure and hurt the very people they claim to represent?" We had Iraq above their pre-war electricity output in July 2004. We should have quit while we were ahead and left then, I guess. |
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| beatlechick | Nov 7 2006, 02:33 AM Post #79 |
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Hey you got it, besides at this point I don't like Hilary anyway. John, you know I love you **now where the hell did I put that whip!?!** Ah yes, here it is oh and the other one, too!! ![]() Bill, I will be voting but can not vote for people I have no respect for. Y'know it's the.............principles.............................................................................. THING!!!!!
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| Bill | Nov 7 2006, 03:18 AM Post #80 |
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That's all I ask Cathy. Chad, I think part of the reason resources are so stretched in Iraq is because the Iraqi government has been so slack about.... well, actually being the Iraqi government. There really does need to be a timetable. There's been way too much time spent on "as they stand up, we'll stand down." The time has come to say, "If you lot DON'T stand up, we WILL stand down." I'm not in favour of an immediate withdrawal but I am in favour of making moves towards one and imposing some consequences on those who so horribly underestimated the magnitude of the job. As I keep reminding people, even conservative estimates at the Pentagon had a complete withdrawal by the end of 2004. Yet just about all the same people are still running the show. That can't be good business. |
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| mozart8mytoe | Nov 7 2006, 03:50 AM Post #81 |
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™8MT I palindrome I?
Just part of that damn liberal media conspiracy.
Some of the people killing our troops might agree with one of you and disagree with the other.
So if Hugo Chávez invaded the US to free us from The Devil's oppression, you would fight alongside the Venezuelan army? Or would you get any weapon you could find and blast those foreign b*stards the hell out of your country? |
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| Deleted User | Nov 7 2006, 04:13 AM Post #82 |
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I agree with you here to a point. We have to make sure they are standing. But, they need a good prodding, and neither Repubs, and especially not Dems, have offered it up yet. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 7 2006, 04:19 AM Post #83 |
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I am not now, nor have I ever felt oppressed. And from my perspective the only Americans who feel oppressed are Liberals. If Chavez, or any other foreign entity were to come upon our shores, I would fight to the death to defend this greatest nation on earth. If Al-Qaida came ashore, how many Americans would fight alongside them? Now, to give credit to Bill for an earlier post, if we were invaded and taken over by an enemy and some country came to liberate us, then I would fight next to the allies until either mine or my enemy's blood spilt out onto the ground. |
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| mozart8mytoe | Nov 7 2006, 05:23 AM Post #84 |
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Perspective is everything. You say you are not oppressed. Hugo Chávez says you are. If Venezuela were the most powerful country in the world, how many people would agree with him and disagree with you? You say Iraqis are oppressed. Some of them seem to think they are not. Some of them seem to think they are being oppressed by a foreign presence on their soil.
We might disagree, but maybe some Iraqis think Iraq is the greatest nation on earth. Maybe they are willing to spill their enemy's blood to defend their soil. If you kill foreign troops in your country, you are a patriot. If they kill foreign troops in their country, what are they? |
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| fab4fan | Nov 10 2006, 04:38 AM Post #85 |
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Sweet mamasita, how the hell did I miss this?
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:angry: However, I would point out that the ad does not carry the endorsement of the DNC the way the Republican party lend their support to hateful attack ads and then claim it was nothing to do with them when they get called out on it.



oh and the other one, too!! 

2:01 PM Jul 11