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Are you for or against the 'Right To Bear Arms' in the US?
I am FOR the right to bear arms 10 (28.6%)
I am AGAINST the right to bear arms 21 (60%)
Undecided 4 (11.4%)
Total Votes: 35
The Right To Bear Arms; For or against the right to own guns?
Topic Started: Sep 28 2006, 11:32 AM (1,699 Views)
JeffLynnesBeard
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Another day, another school siege and another gun-related death. It's almost ordinary now. These emotionally unbalanced people are obviously able to get hold of guns far too easily. Is the freedom of everyone being allowed to own guns worth the pain & death the misuse of guns cause? Please remember that being against the constitutional right to bear arms does not mean banning guns completely - there is a third way. If you have a third way, please tell us what it is.

Are you for or against The Right To Bear Arms? Please explain why you feel the way you do.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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BeatleBarb
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I believe in upholding the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution as it relates to individuals. I do, however, support bans on assault weapons, mandatory background checks, waiting periods, and other restrictions on gun sale or use.
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Bill
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Good answer Barb.

There are plenty of law abiding citizens with perfectly legitimate reasons for having weapons.

There are also a bunch of idiots who own guns when they shouldn't be allowed to even drive a car.

Gun control doesn't mean taking everyone's guns away. It means what it says - control. It's not really a question of yes, no or maybe. When the US constitution was written, "arms" were not as they are today. Controlling machine guns is not the same as taking away the right to bear arms.
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theonlyfab4fan
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Chris Rock had a pretty good idea in one of his routines. He said the problem lay not in the gun but in having access to the bullets. So his take was if you had to pay 5,000 dollars a piece for a bullet you might think a bit longer before you used it.

Of course that is absurd and yet.......... :D
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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maccascruff
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Having lived through the horror of Columbine in my backyard and hearing a play by play of it as it happened that horrible day, something has to be done to keep these idiots from having guns. The mother of one of the children killed at Columbine committed suicide in a gun shop. She asked to be shown how the gun worked and how to put the bullets in. When they did that for her, she grabbed the gun and killed herself right in the store.

Now, there has been another school shooting in my backyard. I heard this play out for a while on the radio yesterday. And he sexually assaulted these girls. The worst part is these chickens kill themselves so they are never brought to justice. That's what the Columbine shooters did. They have no idea of who this guy is.

When I was in high school back in the dark ages, we had race riots. Because of those, the doors to our school were locked once school began and you were not allowed in unless you could show you were a student or a parent.

The world is a sad place. :(
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maccascruff
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Now they are saying the guy lived in Bailey until recently. Wonder how old he was and what set him off.
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Bill
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I hate to sound cynical, but let me take a guess....

He was a quietly spoken chap. Kept pretty much to himself. Didn't say much. Had a regular, middle class upbringing. Bit of a loner. Had a keen interest in guns.
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maccascruff
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I'm sure that is the kind of thing they will say, Bill.

All of it sounds like me, too, except for the interest in guns. I have no interest in guns.

How do you predict who will do this?
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maccascruff
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He's a 54 year old male who was living out of his car. He has a criminal record, but they still don't know why he did it. They have found his car. Haven't talked about the criminal record yet.
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Bill
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Well for a start, you're female wich doesn't fit the profile. ;) Seriously though, that's pretty much how these people are invariably described. And it ends up in a "senseless" shooting. Sometimes the inference seems to be that if the culprit were poor or a non-white background, then it might make more "sense."
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Bill
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maccascruff
Sep 29 2006, 12:50 AM
He's a 54 year old male who was living out of his car. He has a criminal record, but they still don't know why he did it. They have found his car. Haven't talked about the criminal record yet.

Oh well. Shows how much I know. :blush:
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maccascruff
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I thought they'd say what you said, Bill. I do think these people have problems, but I wish there was a way to predict their behavior. Living out of a car--he probably didn't have much contact with people.

At least I go to work, even though I very much enjoy my alone time. I've lived alone since 1974.
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No, absolutely not. I am not some lily livered liberal and yes I am acquainted with guns I grew up with them. First in barracks and then with the troubles I knew how to use my mates personal weapon if we were attacked, it's okay he was a Police officer. Personally it amases me that the US governement has never used the National guard to protect it's citizens by condoning off areas and sweeping though them for illegal weapons. But can send the poor b*stards to Iraq.
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maccascruff
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The criminal record was minor.

I agree with Sadie. I don't like guns.
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theonlyfab4fan
Sep 28 2006, 02:28 PM
Chris Rock had a pretty good idea in one of his routines. He said the problem lay not in the gun but in having access to the bullets. So his take was if you had to pay 5,000 dollars a piece for a bullet you might think a bit longer before you used it.

Of course that is absurd and yet.......... :D

I know what you're talking about and I love it.

Chris Rock - Gun Control
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Big Beatle Fan
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MaccaByrd
Sep 28 2006, 04:02 PM
theonlyfab4fan
Sep 28 2006, 02:28 PM
Chris Rock had a pretty good idea in one of his routines.  He said the problem lay not in the gun but in having access to the bullets.  So his take was if you had to pay 5,000 dollars a piece for a bullet you might think a bit longer before  you used it.

Of course that is absurd and yet.......... :D

I know what you're talking about and I love it.

Chris Rock - Gun Control

That's f*cking hilarious. I love Chris Rock.
Every night I just wanna go out. Get out of my head. Every day I don't wanna get up. Get out of my bed.<a href='http://eapr-1/@0@Bradley@1@Georgia@' target='_blank'></a>
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BikerLikeAnIcon
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I don't think it's right to punish those responsible gun owners by taking away their right to bear arms just because there are maniacs out there.

Those kinds of people are gonna get firearms whether they are legal or not.

I wouldn't feel safe without a gun in the house to protect us.
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theonlyfab4fan
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Amendment II - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.



It is my personal opinion that in the historical context in which this amendment was written was in order for the country to raise an army on a moments notice.

I can`t imagine that the founding fathers would have wanted this country to hold so tightly and stubbornly to an idea when it is no longer practical and has become archaic. This country was founded on the very basis of challenging archaic notions that were harmful to the evolution of a free society.

If we had proper gun control then the average citizen wouldn`t be deluding themselves into believing that having a gun readily available in their homes really and truly provides them much protection. Especially if said gun falls into the hands of young people when they are going through emotionally turbulent times in their life.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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BikerLikeAnIcon
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What about hunter's rights to own firearms?
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BikerLikeAnIcon
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theonlyfab4fan
Sep 28 2006, 12:58 PM
Amendment II - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.



It is my personal opinion that in the historical context in which this amendment was written was in order for the country to raise an army on a moments notice.

I can`t imagine that the founding fathers would have wanted this country to hold so tightly and stubbornly to an idea when it is no longer practical and has become archaic. This country was founded on the very basis of challenging archaic notions that were harmful to the evolution of a free society.

If we had proper gun control then the average citizen wouldn`t be deluding themselves into believing that having a gun readily available in their homes really and truly provides them much protection. Especially if said gun falls into the hands of young people when they are going through emotionally turbulent times in their life.

I agree with your assessment of why the amendment was created in the first place. I totally agree with that

However, we DO NOT have proper gun control and even if we did, those who really wanted a gun could get one.

Call me archaic, but I think it's naive to believe that you can sweet talk your way out of getting killed my an intruder. I like to have the upper hand. It's sad that it has to be that way, but that's the world nowdays


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theonlyfab4fan
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Well I never said anything about being able to sweet talk an intruder out of harming you, but the fact is that an intruder already has the upper hand. The element of surprise is a great advantage. I think the argument that people who wish to do ill will will get guns anyway so therefore why bother is naive.
People with a drinking problem will drive drunk anyway so why bother to make it against the law? Sounds stupid doesn`t it.

Are you walking around your house with a loaded gun on your body? Do you have loaded guns strategically placed in many locations throughout your house? If the answer to these questions is no, then your precious gun is not doing you much good. You have small children in your house and I know you are a loving attentive parent, so I assume that you have the gun put where they can`t get to it and most likely unloaded in the worse case scenario that they did manage to find it. So someone breaks into your home with the intent to kill you and your family. They are already in and have the upper hand by the time you get that gun out of its well hidden hiding place and then you have to load it may very well be too late.

I suppose a false sense of security is better than none at all.

And let me just say for the record: I grew up with guns. My grandfather was a gunsmith and collector and he was a champion skeet shooter. I am an excellent shot myself. I do not have a gun in my house nor will I ever.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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BlueMolly2009
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This thread is probably going to get very heated because people get SO feaking passionate wehn it comes to gun control. I've seen so many threads in message boards about gun control go downhill fast. I hope people can be civil, which it has been so far. :)

I agree with the second ammendment, but I think the laws that are already out there should strongly be inforced instead of putting more laws out there. I agree in background checks and not giving guns to mentally ill people. But sadly, even if we banned guns people would still get them through blackmarket dealers. It's happening now with people stealing guns. Guns should be kept locked with the ammo in a different area. And I do agree addult weapons should be banned all together, there's no need for them unless you're in the military.
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theonlyfab4fan
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Here is just a small group of facts compiled by the CDC. None of the data goes beyond the year 2000. I don`t know what the current figures are , but I will look them up. However I doubt that the numbers have improved much and more than likely will be worse.





5 children were killed every day in gun related accidents and suicides committed with a firearm, from 1994-1998.
An average of 5 children were killed every day in gun related accidents and suicides committed with a firearm, from 1994-1998.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, National Injury Mortality Statistics, 1994-1998

40% of American households with children have guns.
Peter Hart Research Associates Poll, July 1999

22 million children live in homes with at least one firearm.
34% of children in the United States (representing more than 22 million children in 11 million homes) live in homes with at least one firearm. In 69 percent of homes with firearms and children, more than one firearm is present.
The RAND Corporation, "Guns in the Family: Firearm Storage Patterns in U.S. Homes with Children," March 2001, an analysis of the 1994 National Health Interview Survey and Year 2000 objectives supplement. Also published as Schuster et al., "Firearm Storage Patterns in U.S. Homes with Children," American Journal of Public Health 90(4): 588-594, April 2000

A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting, than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting, a criminal assault or homicide, or an attempted or completed suicide than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
Journal of Trauma, 1998
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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theonlyfab4fan
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Remember James Brady? Here are some facts put out by the Brady Center.

FIREARM FACTS

Firearms are so pervasive in America that sometimes we forget the price we pay for all-too-easy access to guns. Consider some basic facts...

Currently, an estimated 39% of households have a gun, while 24% have a handgun.[1]

There are approximately 192 million privately owned firearms in the U.S. - 65 million of which are handguns. [2]

Approximately 29% of adults personally own a firearm, and 18% personally own a handgun. [3]

In 1998, 30,708 people in the United States died from firearm-related deaths - 12,102 (39%) of those were murdered; 17,424 (57%) were suicides; 866 (3%) were accidents; and in 316 (1%) the intent was unknown. [4]

In 1998, firearms were used in more than 2 out of 3 murders committed in the U.S. Handguns were used in 51% of all murders.[5]

In 1998, 8 out of 10 of those murdered with firearms were murdered with handguns.[6]

In 1999, there were only 134 justifiable handgun homicides[7] by private citizens in the United States.[8]

Thinking of buying a gun to protect your home? You may want to remember that...

Guns kept in the home for self-protection are 22 times more likely to kill a family member or friend than to kill in self-defense.[9]

The presence of a gun in the home triples the risk of homicide in the home.[10]

The presence of a gun in the home increases the risk of suicide fivefold.[11]

Guns are a blight upon our young people. For instance...

In 1998, firearm homicide was the leading cause of death for black males ages 15-34. [12]

In 1998, gunshot wounds were the second leading cause of injury death for men and women 10-24 years of age - second only to motor vehicle crashes.[13]

In 1997, the firearm injury death rate among males 15-24 years of age was 42% higher than the motor vehicle traffic injury death rate.[14]

In 1998, more than 10 children and teenagers, ages 19 and under, were killed with guns everyday. [15]

In 1998, 77% of murdered Juveniles age 13-19 were killed with a firearm.[16]

Each year during 1993 through 1997, an average of 1,621 murderers who had not reached their 18th birthdays took someone's life with a gun.[17]

From 1993 through 1997, an average of 1,409 children and teenagers took their own lives with guns each year. [18]

Surprised? You shouldn't be, because...

In 1998, 30,708 Americans were killed with firearms - in homicides, suicides and accidents. In comparison, 33,651 Americans were killed in the Korean War and 58,148 Americans were killed in the Vietnam War. [19]

In 1998 alone, licensed firearms dealers sold an estimated 4.4 million guns, 1.7 million of which were handguns.[20]

Sales of handguns per adult are now roughly twice the level of 40 years ago.[21]

Of all accidental fatalities involving firearms, 71% involve handguns.[22]

Finally, you may want to consider one more statistic...

In 1996, handguns were used to murder 2 people in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 30 in Great Britain, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany and 9,390 in the United States.[23]
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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Dorfliedot
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Undecided for I can't make up my mind. So, therefore I am not sure about safety or non safety of guns, etc
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Sher
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Against.

Just plain against.

Have you ever seen the episode of Family Ties where Stephen almost shoots Alex in the closet?

There are some pretty good statistical reasons (a lot posted above) as well. There's just no need for it.
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theonlyfab4fan
Sep 28 2006, 07:20 PM

Finally, you may want to consider one more statistic...

In 1996, handguns were used to murder 2 people in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 30 in Great Britain, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany and 9,390 in the United States.[23]


30 in Great Britain times five to compare populations is 150 against 9,390.


And, exactly what is your argument.
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theonlyfab4fan
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Iluvpeter
Sep 28 2006, 07:42 PM
theonlyfab4fan
Sep 28 2006, 07:20 PM

Finally, you may want to consider one more statistic...

In 1996, handguns were used to murder 2 people in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 30 in Great Britain, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany and 9,390 in the United States.[23]


30 in Great Britain times five to compare populations is 150 against 9,390.


And, exactly what is your argument.

My point is that the figures don`t lie. Why would anyone in their right mind want to have a gun in their home. Especially if they have children.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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Sandra

No reason that I can understand.
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theonlyfab4fan
Sep 28 2006, 07:45 PM
Iluvpeter
Sep 28 2006, 07:42 PM
theonlyfab4fan
Sep 28 2006, 07:20 PM

Finally, you may want to consider one more statistic...

In 1996, handguns were used to murder 2 people in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 30 in Great Britain, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany and 9,390 in the United States.[23]


30 in Great Britain times five to compare populations is 150 against 9,390.


And, exactly what is your argument.

My point is that the figures don`t lie. Why would anyone in their right mind want to have a gun in their home. Especially if they have children.


Sorry, betsy it's an expression we used here when there is no rational argument by the other side. The figures do not lie.

Gun deaths have probably gone up here in the meantime which will be due to illicit drug industry and the fact of no captial punishment.
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BeatleBarb
Sep 28 2006, 12:52 PM
I believe in upholding the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution as it relates to individuals. I do, however, support bans on assault weapons, mandatory background checks, waiting periods, and other restrictions on gun sale or use.

I agree with everything she said :P
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MaccaByrd
Sep 28 2006, 04:02 PM
theonlyfab4fan
Sep 28 2006, 02:28 PM
Chris Rock had a pretty good idea in one of his routines.  He said the problem lay not in the gun but in having access to the bullets.  So his take was if you had to pay 5,000 dollars a piece for a bullet you might think a bit longer before  you used it.

Of course that is absurd and yet.......... :D

I know what you're talking about and I love it.

Chris Rock - Gun Control

thanks for posting that. Needed a good laugh reading this very depressing thread.
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BikerLikeAnIcon
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theonlyfab4fan
Sep 28 2006, 02:05 PM
Well I never said anything about being able to sweet talk an intruder out of harming you, but the fact is that an intruder already has the upper hand. The element of surprise is a great advantage. I think the argument that people who wish to do ill will will get guns anyway so therefore why bother is naive.
People with a drinking problem will drive drunk anyway so why bother to make it against the law? Sounds stupid doesn`t it.

Are you walking around your house with a loaded gun on your body? Do you have loaded guns strategically placed in many locations throughout your house? If the answer to these questions is no, then your precious gun is not doing you much good. You have small children in your house and I know you are a loving attentive parent, so I assume that you have the gun put where they can`t get to it and most likely unloaded in the worse case scenario that they did manage to find it. So someone breaks into your home with the intent to kill you and your family. They are already in and have the upper hand by the time you get that gun out of its well hidden hiding place and then you have to load it may very well be too late.

I suppose a false sense of security is better than none at all.

And let me just say for the record: I grew up with guns. My grandfather was a gunsmith and collector and he was a champion skeet shooter. I am an excellent shot myself. I do not have a gun in my house nor will I ever.

You make very good points and I understand your views.



I don't remember saying "why bother" when it comes to gun control. I was simply stating the facts. We don't have proper gun control in this country, so you have to do what you have to do to protect yourself and your family. It is easy to get a gun, and despite laws on top of laws, criminals are gonna get guns no matter what. I'm not saying "why bother".

Our pistol is in a very strategic place in our bedroom and it is loaded and ready to shoot once you take it off safety. My kids don't as a rule go into our room. Even if Hayden found it, he is extremely responsible with guns and has shot my rifle and 410 shotgun and understands all about guns and their possibilities. He's not a snoop though, and he isn't left in the house un-supervised, so I'm comfortable with having it where it is for now.


I know this touches sensitive bones in some, but as hunters, we own several rifles and shotguns which are left unloaded until needed. Even if we didn't have the pistol for protection, I'd still be for the right to bear arms simply for hunting purposes.


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Big Beatle Fan
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I don't have kids but even if I did I'd still have guns. I have a pistol for protection. Yes I do. I know many of you disagree with that, but, I'm not going to be left being the one having a knife at a gunfight

I hunt too Tassy. Must be a southern thing ;)

Disagreements are what makes this world go around. No sense in name calling though.

Every night I just wanna go out. Get out of my head. Every day I don't wanna get up. Get out of my bed.<a href='http://eapr-1/@0@Bradley@1@Georgia@' target='_blank'></a>
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theonlyfab4fan
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Here is a bit from the Harvard research center.


IV PERCEPTIONS AND MISPERCEPTIONS

16. Parental Misperceptions about their children and guns.
At family practice clinics in rural Alabama, over 400 parents were separated from their children, and both were asked questions about guns in the home.
Major findings: Over 1/3 of parents who reported that their son had not handled a household gun were contradicted by the child.
Publication: Baxley, Frances; Miller, Matthew. "Parental Misperceptions about their Children and Firearms" Annals of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine. in press.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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maccascruff
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I would never have a gun in my home. I don't hunt and never would. I don't believe in killing Bambi or any other living creature. We had friends when I was a kid who became one of those statistics. The father and four sons were getting ready to go hunting. The youngest boy was "checking" the gun. It went off and blew his brains out. :( Think they kept guns in their house after that? I know of now good use for a gun. I think guns should be outlawed period.

Why would anybody hunt? I have never understood that so-called sport? It's like the fox hunting in the UK. Hasn't that been outlawed, at long last?
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Big Beatle Fan
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maccascruff
Sep 29 2006, 12:00 AM
I would never have a gun in my home. I don't hunt and never would. I don't believe in killing Bambi or any other living creature. We had friends when I was a kid who became one of those statistics. The father and four sons were getting ready to go hunting. The youngest boy was "checking" the gun. It went off and blew his brains out. :( Think they kept guns in their house after that? I know of now good use for a gun. I think guns should be outlawed period.

Why would anybody hunt? I have never understood that so-called sport? It's like the fox hunting in the UK. Hasn't that been outlawed, at long last?

To each his own. I get really tired of hunter-bashers. That's another discussion for another thread.
Every night I just wanna go out. Get out of my head. Every day I don't wanna get up. Get out of my bed.<a href='http://eapr-1/@0@Bradley@1@Georgia@' target='_blank'></a>
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maccascruff
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Hunting was brought up earlier in this thread and not by me. I just commented on what I read in the thread.
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Well, anyway, anyone who has hunted for any amount of time knows that you do not load your rifle until you get to your destination. As a matter of fact, it is illegal to have the rifle loaded while riding with it in your vehicle. Huge fines for stuff like that if you get caught by the game warden. Therefore, if those folks were just "getting ready to go hunting" the guns should not yet have had shells in them. That's a tragic story Linda. I hate hearing things like that.

That's why it is very important to take gun safety/hunter education courses. I've been hunting since age 5 and never had a mishap. I was taught well.
Every night I just wanna go out. Get out of my head. Every day I don't wanna get up. Get out of my bed.<a href='http://eapr-1/@0@Bradley@1@Georgia@' target='_blank'></a>
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maccascruff
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This happened back in the late 60's. I don't think there were gun education courses then.
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In Paul's Arms!
maccascruff
Sep 28 2006, 05:00 PM
I would never have a gun in my home. I don't hunt and never would. I don't believe in killing Bambi or any other living creature. We had friends when I was a kid who became one of those statistics. The father and four sons were getting ready to go hunting. The youngest boy was "checking" the gun. It went off and blew his brains out. :( Think they kept guns in their house after that? I know of now good use for a gun. I think guns should be outlawed period.

Why would anybody hunt? I have never understood that so-called sport? It's like the fox hunting in the UK. Hasn't that been outlawed, at long last?

Unfortuntately I wish I could say there is no gun in this house. I don't feel safe with them even though my boyfriend is trained in their use. When I realize they are in this house, I feel less safe. Linda, I agree with you on hunting. Just like when the 2nd amendment was made, there was a time when it was needed but not now.

As for Sadie stating the crime rate going up in the UK because of no capital punishment, I say hogwash. We have capital punishment and yet the crime rate is still high.

Now if the question was whether or not I believe in the right to arm bears, Yes I believe in that.
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theonlyfab4fan
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Now if the question was whether or not I believe in the right to arm bears, Yes I believe in that.


:D Good one Cathy!!
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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Bambi? *poke* Bambi? Can you hear me?




...




NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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You need only look at the murder and the rate of crime involving guns. From the time of the aboltion of capital punishment to today. Why because you didnt hang so armed robbery which was in the main pick axe handels became guns. Once it became clear in the late seventies that life did'nt mean life, it soared yet again even with numerous redifinitions of murder in our legal system.

We now have armed Police patroling our cities 24 hours a day, not many but we do. Once you take the penalties away for anything legally it is hard to regain control.
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doris mendlovitz
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You Know i forget where I SAW it but there was an article once saying that the right to bear arms means you take a grissly or black bear withyou not to weapons. I had to vote now as that sounds too cruel to bears. I don't want the arms of bears.
love doris.
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BEATNUT



I believe there should be the right to Bare Breasts.. :D
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In Paul's Arms!
theonlyfab4fan
Sep 28 2006, 06:16 PM
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Now if the question was whether or not I believe in the right to arm bears, Yes I believe in that.


:D Good one Cathy!!

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Betsy, thanks for all of the great posts. Well, done!!!
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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
BEATNUT
Sep 28 2006, 06:41 PM
I believe there should be the right to Bare Breasts.. :D

Okay so Nutty you can start it by baring yours!!! :rofl:
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BEATNUT

beatlechick
Sep 29 2006, 01:46 AM
BEATNUT
Sep 28 2006, 06:41 PM
I believe there should be the right to Bare Breasts.. :D

Okay so Nutty you can start it by baring yours!!! :rofl:



Now Now, Ladies first. :D
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BeatleBarb
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Hey Beat....I hear you need some bare naked ladies. :D
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ogoble
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BEATNUT
Sep 29 2006, 02:08 AM
beatlechick
Sep 29 2006, 01:46 AM
BEATNUT
Sep 28 2006, 06:41 PM
I believe there should be the right to Bare Breasts.. :D

Okay so Nutty you can start it by baring yours!!! :rofl:



Now Now, Ladies first. :D

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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
BEATNUT
Sep 28 2006, 07:08 PM
beatlechick
Sep 29 2006, 01:46 AM
BEATNUT
Sep 28 2006, 06:41 PM
I believe there should be the right to Bare Breasts.. :D

Okay so Nutty you can start it by baring yours!!! :rofl:



Now Now, Ladies first. :D

Well, I guess that counts me out. I ain't no f*cking lady!! :P
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theonlyfab4fan
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Sep 29 2006, 12:44 AM
Well, anyway, anyone who has hunted for any amount of time knows that you do not load your rifle until you get to your destination. As a matter of fact, it is illegal to have the rifle loaded while riding with it in your vehicle. Huge fines for stuff like that if you get caught by the game warden. Therefore, if those folks were just "getting ready to go hunting" the guns should not yet have had shells in them. That's a tragic story Linda. I hate hearing things like that.

That's why it is very important to take gun safety/hunter education courses. I've been hunting since age 5 and never had a mishap. I was taught well.

Maybe Dick Cheney should have attended the same classes you took.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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theonlyfab4fan
Sep 29 2006, 02:24 AM
Big Beatle Fan
Sep 29 2006, 12:44 AM
Well, anyway, anyone who has hunted for any amount of time knows that you do not load your rifle until you get to your destination.  As a matter of fact, it is illegal to have the rifle loaded while riding with it in your vehicle.  Huge fines for stuff like that if you get caught by the game warden.  Therefore, if those folks were just "getting ready to go hunting" the guns should not yet have had shells in them.  That's a tragic story Linda.  I hate hearing things like that. 

That's why it is very important to take gun safety/hunter education courses.  I've been hunting since age 5 and never had a mishap.  I was taught well.

Maybe Dick Cheney should have attended the same classes you took.

hahaha Bets.....for sure!
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JanaW
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I had never personally owned a gun until three years ago. Our neighbors down the road had two big enormous dogs that they allowed to roam the countryside at night. When they came onto my property and attacked and brutally killed one of the cats I decided to buy a gun. I went the next day and bought a shotgun, and it sits by my front door. I have used it several times to scare off animals in the night. I have never shot an animal and don't plan to. We live a very great distance from any town. It would probably take law enforcement half an hour to get here going lights and sirens. Would I shoot someone who came into my home? Probably...absolutely.

All of this said, I was amazed at how easy it was to get the shotgun in the first place. I expected a long drawn out thing. I thought I would have to apply for a permit and once it was approved, I would be told to come back and get the gun. Not so. I filled out the paperwork, they checked to see if I had a felony record and I walked out of the store with the gun. Half an hour tops...and I was a gun owner. I was certainly shocked, and kind of concerned, so I talked to my sons who are police officers. They told me that applying for a permit to own a gun is really kind of misleading. It does not mean you won't use it in a crime....it only means you have never committed a crime....yet. It gives people a false sense of security. Like gates at an apartment complex.

Anyone can get a gun who wants one. They buy them illegally, they steal them, they borrow them, they inherit them from grandpa when he dies, or they take them from Daddys collection. What is the answer? To be honest, and I am not sure I like the idea...the only answer is to remove the guns totally. Take away the right to bear arms. I really would not want to have to run down the road in my nightie chasing a coyote off by throwing rocks, but I would do it if he kept some nut from killing kids in schools, or at McDonalds, or in parks.

At this point though, taking away the right to bear arms is useless. How would they get all of the guns back? Do you think people would just turn them in because they were supposed to? Do you think people would care that owning a gun would be illegal? Drugs are illegal, and people still get them. I can almost bet that some of those bodyguards who work for Paul are packing...and don't even begin to tell me they aren't.


I don't believe that there is truly an answer. Lets hear some more ideas on what to do to stop these nuts.
If slaughterhouses had glass walls the whole world would be vegetarian.
Linda McCartney
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mozart8mytoe
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This is indeed an interesting issue.

I hate guns. I have never touched one and I never will. I consider hunting barbaric and I see no reason why anyone who is not a member of the military or law enforcement needs to use a gun. However, I voted for the right to bear arms. I am always resistant when people want to tear apart the Constitution. The fact that I find hunting disgusting does not change the fact that millions of people disagree with me. There are probably many things I like doing that they would find disgusting. In my old age I have found that life is not about discouraging others against that which you do not like, but encouraging those few common interests we share.

If the government can take away this right, what other rights can it take away? If the right to bear arms is archaic because we have a pretty good army, is the right to free speech also archaic since we have no king. What about Amendment III: "No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law." This never happens, so maybe we should overturn it. Then there is Amendment IV: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." This has been violated many times and is being violated right now. We might as well dump it all together. What about Amendment IX: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." That simply has to go.

Once the people let their government take away some rights, others will quickly follow. The whole point of the United States is that it is supposed to be government of, by and for the people, not government over the people.

People die from guns. There are school shootings and accidents in the home and hunting mishaps. This seems to be the main argument people give in the abolition of Amendment II. But many people also die from automobile accidents. I have yet to see anyone advocate the abolition of cars. I do not have any statistics at hand and I am simply too lazy to look up any sources, but I have read that more people die in their own homes than anywhere else. People are shot, stabbed, electrocuted, poisoned, bludgeoned, strangled, they fall down, fall out, things fall on them, they have heart attacks, strokes and any number of medical problems in their own homes. Clearly our homes are deathtraps, but they are still legal. What about alcohol? How many people die because of that every year? Do not even think about outlawing it. You will have to pry my vodka from my cold dead hands.

On the other hand, cars, homes and alcohol (especially alcohol) all have a useful purpose. The only purpose of a gun is to kill.

The Supreme Court has often affirmed that today's National Guard is the well regulated militia mentioned in Amendment II. So if the National Guard is necessary to the security of a free state, the government shall not infringe on the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Most of the "experts" agree that to "bear arms" means to take up arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing, end them. So we citizens have the right to use our weapons in conjunction with the National Guard. But today's National Guard provides weapons. No need to bring Uncle Jethro's shotgun. Uncle Sam has his own.

The short sentence of Amendment II was written in 1789. The United States had no standing army. Many Americans were terrified that England would invade. The first line of defense was a bunch of dudes with hunting rifles. I am still amazed that England lost both wars.

Things have changed somewhat since then. If Gordon Brown decides to invade, we do not need to rely on all those people who keep arms to bear them. If our defense is private citizens and their gun collections, why do most of my tax dollars go to the Department of Defense and Department of Homeland Security? We have an Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, National Guard, Coast Guard, CIA, FBI and those X Files people. I think we are covered.

Interestingly, I originally voted that I am for the right to bear arms, but after typing this up I can see no reason why you or I need to raise our weapons against our enemies. We have very well trained people to do that.

Amendment II says nothing about hunting or self defense. It says that the people have the right to raise their weapons in defense of their country as part of the National Guard. Since our military is more than capable, do we civilians really need the right to store weapons in the incredibly unlikely event that we would need to take up arms in defense of our country?

Maybe Amendment II should be amended to James Madison's original draft. "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."
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JanaW
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Very well put M8.

I really consider the right to bear arms question a mute point. It is written into the Constitution, and I don't expect it will ever change. No matter what some people do or do not want. I don't especially like having a gun, nor does it give me any false sense of security. I keep it only to make a loud noise to chase off predatory animals. I do think, like I said, I would try to use it to defend myself if the need arose.

I would be more interested in hearing from parents who have school age children. What are you doing to teach your children how to protect themselves at a mall or school or playground, if someone should start shooting? We teach children about Stranger Danger, Saying No To Drugs, etc., but can you teach them to protect themselves against this type of thing? What should our school systems do to eliminate these things?
If slaughterhouses had glass walls the whole world would be vegetarian.
Linda McCartney
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doris mendlovitz
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I remember incollege tthe subject came up only the article said that if you were to read the right to bear arms correctly it has nothing to do with weopans it has to do with Bears. I think if they tried to put leashes on some of the larger bears in order that the bears may keep their arms and take them into battle we would have fewer wars. We would have to come up with better ways to take care of polar bears, grizzlies, brown bears. and such. Our founding fathers need to reword it.
Poor creatures ,but the constitution sayas we have the right to keep them
love doris.
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JanaW
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I remember incollege tthe subject came up only the article said that if you were to read the right to bear arms correctly it has nothing to do with weopans it has to do with Bears. I think if they tried to put leashes on some of the larger bears in order that the bears may keep their arms and take them into battle we would have fewer wars. We would have to come up with better ways to take care of polar bears, grizzlies, brown bears. and such. Our founding fathers need to reword it.
Poor creatures ,but the constitution sayas we have the right to keep them



Doris I'm not sure what college you attended, or what article you read, but Amendment II states nothing about bears. That discussion is a joke.

For those of you who are not familiar with the Second Amendment it reads as follows:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Simply stated this means that a well regulated militia (army...National Guard) is necessary to the well being of a free state. In order to protect a state and keep it free from intruders, the people have the right to keep and use arms (weapons, guns) to protect the state. It gives individuals the right to own arms to protect their borders.

If the authors of the 2nd Amendment could have foreseen the debate, they might have phrased the amendment differently, because much of the debate has centered around the way the amendment is phrased. It does NOT give people the right to own arms to kill, injure, rob or harm others without provocation.
If slaughterhouses had glass walls the whole world would be vegetarian.
Linda McCartney
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doris mendlovitz
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I 'll bet if that militia went walking down the street withbears on leashes I bet there would be less tendencey to fight.
The article was about the spelling of Bear .
I would rather a bunch of bears then I would a bunch of guns any day.
love doris.
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maccascruff
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I have never touched a gun nor will I ever do so. I have no need for them. If someone comes into my house, they will win because of the element of surprise anyway.
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Gun safety and education is the key. Stupid gun owners kill people.

I concur with Barb's original statement.
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beep
Sep 29 2006, 09:45 AM
Gun safety and education is the key. Stupid gun owners kill people.


:wub:
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BEATNUT

BeatleBarb
Sep 29 2006, 02:12 AM
Hey Beat....I hear you need some bare naked ladies. :D


You volunteering Barb?? :D
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beatlespud
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BEATNUT
Sep 29 2006, 05:28 PM
BeatleBarb
Sep 29 2006, 02:12 AM
Hey Beat....I hear you need some bare naked ladies.  :D


You volunteering Barb?? :D

I'll settle for bare arms ;) or legs :hyper:









Dean
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doris mendlovitz
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I also like the idea of Bears keeping their arms.
love doris.
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The Sound of a Gun


The Sound of a Gun
From Man on the Line
by Chris de Burgh

Year Released: 1984

Playing Time: 4:30


I have seen the diamond stylus,
Cut a groove from north to south,
Heard them calling from the islands for a better day,
One by one they tell their story,
One by one it's just the same,
"They've taken our leaders,
And all their believers are paralysed,
And now we can't turn back - somebody is watching you!
Don't turn round - yesterday's gone!
And even the children are waking at midnight in tears,
Didn't anyone hear? Mother, mother, mother..."

Hush child go to sleep, it's only the sound of a gun,
Hush child go to sleep, it's only the sound of a gun;

Looking out my bedroom window,
I remember early days,
When the shot that wounded millions took our breath away,
But now the shadow of a gunman,
With his balaclava eyes, is making the news,
Calling out the warnings on the telephone,
"You're in the line of fire - wish there was another way!
Line of fire - anything goes,"
And who is the winner, and what will the minister say,
At the end of the day? Never, never, never, never!

Hush child go to sleep, it's only the sound of a gun,
Hush child go to sleep, it's only the sound of a gun;

This is bella soma, this is bella soma...
Mother, mother, mother...

Hush child go to sleep, it's only the sound of a gun,
Hush child go to sleep, it's only the sound of a gun,
Hush child go to sleep, it's only the sound of a gun,
Hush child do not weep,
It's only the sound of a world on the run,
You're hearing the sound of a gun;

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mozart8mytoe
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Teach your children well.

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mozart8mytoe
Sep 30 2006, 02:58 PM
Teach your children well.

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Innocent little children with tools of destruction... It's disgusting.
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Peter
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I agree with Sadie.
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theonlyfab4fan
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
Peter
Sep 30 2006, 05:40 PM
I agree with Sadie.

So do I. Sadie is a wise woman.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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maccagirl1428
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i think it depends~me my hubby my family we dont any guns we dont need them some of our friends do ~i guess it depends on the person myabe they should only have the police with guns i bet crime would go down. :mellow:
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
MaccaByrd
Sep 30 2006, 09:13 AM
mozart8mytoe
Sep 30 2006, 02:58 PM
Teach your children well.

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Innocent little children with tools of destruction... It's disgusting.

This makes the point. Thanks for it Moz8 and Fiona.
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BlueMolly2009
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Children shouldn't be allowed to even practice with a gun and if their parents are caught teaching them holding a gun they should have their kids taken away from them.
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mozart8mytoe
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If I had children it would take a lot of people with a lot of guns to even try to take them away from me.

A government that too easily separates children from their parents is more dangerous than a government that too easily goes to war.
Nurse, I spy gypsies. Run.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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mozart8mytoe
Oct 1 2006, 12:10 PM
If I had children it would take a lot of people with a lot of guns to even try to take them away from me.

A government that too easily separates children from their parents is more dangerous than a government that too easily goes to war.

I have to agree. There have been so many instances of 'social sevices' in the UK taking children away from parents due to unproved allegations. They have destroyed people's lives.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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I believe that some people have missed the point of the thread. It's not a choice between everyone having the right to bear arms or banning gun ownership - there's a middle ground. My point being that while the right to bear arms is a part of the American constitution, everyone has a right to own a gun if they wish and it can be argued that any gun control is a violation of an American's rights. I do not agree with hunting, but if people want a gun to hunt at least they have a legitimate reason to own a gun. I would offer the theory that the majority of gun owners in America do not have a legitimate reason for gun ownership.

It is a well-known fact that you're more likely to be shot by a member of your family who owns a gun than you ever are of being shot by a stranger or an intruder. Owning a gun for self-defence and to 'protect your family' is therefore counter-productive and a part of the problem, not the solution.

Kellermann
AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, et al. "Suicide in the home in relation to gun ownership." New England Journal of Medicine. 1992; 327: 467-472. & Kellermann AL. "Injuries and Deaths Due to Firearms in the Home." Journal of Trauma, 1998; 45(2):263-67
The risk of suicide is five times greater in households with guns.  What's more, tragic stories of accidental or unintentional shootings from the careless storage of guns at home are all too common. The statistic noted above bears repeating: a gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a criminal, unintentional, or suicide-related shooting than to be used in a self-defense shooting.


My point is that we live in a less - and not more - safe world in which individuals have the constitutionally protected right to own guns. I accept that some people may have a reason to own a firearm and those people should be allowed to apply for a license to keep guns, but it's far too easy for individuals who are not responsible citizens to own guns. This is why we end up with high school shootings & the high incidences of gun crime that is currently 'enjoyed' by the US. These are the reasons why I am against the right to bear arms and believe it to be the worst thing about the otherwise great country that is The United States of America.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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maccascruff
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Andy, you are so right. One of the reasons I have never owned a gun is because I have suffered from depression since I was 12. I know there have been times in my life when I would have committed suicide if I owned a gun. Thankfully, no gun has ever or ever will be in my home.

I hear about way too many gun accidents in homes, whether they be with guns that are kept for protection or for hunting. If the guns are not in gun safes, little ones can get their hands on them, no matter what you have taught them. I totally agree with you about owning a gun for self protection is hog wash. Guns are met to hurt and kill and they often kill the wrong person.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Perhaps some people are responsible enough to own guns, but gun ownership should be a lot more stringent than it currently is and a privilege, not a right. How many shootings have we seen recently? How many people need to die before something is done to limit the amount of weapons in society? Perhaps the damage is already done and any legislation would now be futile... but doing something has got to be better than doing nothing.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
Wise words, Andy. I hope Congress and state legislatures will take up gun control. We definitely need stricter gun control in this country.
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Merry
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I wish we DID have more stringent laws regarding gun control, but I don't see it happening.There are too many members of the NRA who will make sure of that.

I'm totally against gun ownership for private use...I know most will feel that my stance is too off the wall, and people should have one for their protection if they feel the need, but really...there are too many cases of accidental shootings as well as shootings commited in the heat of anger.

I'm so glad we never had one at our house. My ex had a bad temper, and I dread to think what may have happened had he owned one!


:) Merry


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BlueMolly2009
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Why should they make new llaw and just enforce the laws that are out there already? Why make new laws and waste taxpayers dollers and just enforce the gun laws out there? The government doesn't want to enforce the gun control laws that are already on the books, so the anti-gun lobbiest will ask for new laws without thinking of the taxpayers.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Why? Because the most determined gun nut can hire a lawyer and argue that it his is fundamental right to own a gun because it's in the American constitution. As I said, it needs to be a privilege, not a right.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
BlueMolly2006
Oct 4 2006, 09:45 AM
Why should they make new llaw and just enforce the laws that are out there already?  Why make new laws and waste taxpayers dollers and just enforce the gun laws out there?  The government doesn't want to enforce the gun control laws that are already on the books, so the anti-gun lobbiest will ask for new laws without thinking of the taxpayers.

How can they enforce laws that are virtually non-existent? If gunshows were better regulated in most states, where you can buy the gun and take it home with you without any background check, than the problem wouldn't be as bad. But since these are moneymakers, why does Walmart feel the need to sell rifles, those states in question have overlooked them. My state is one of the toughest states to buy firearms, and the gunshows are very regulated, but Walmart still sells rifles in some places here, and pawnshops are supposed to submit for the background check, but guns still find their way into people's hands anyway.
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Bill
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Here's a question, not intended to be too distracting, but it probably will be.....

How come the ones who invoke the sanctity of the US constitution with regard to gun control are the same ones who look the other way when the president assumes powers he doesn't have? I'm speaking specifically of bypassing the courts and stating that he is in charge of the federal government.
Just a thought....
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theonlyfab4fan
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Bill
Oct 5 2006, 06:37 AM
Here's a question, not intended to be too distracting, but it probably will be.....

How come the ones who invoke the sanctity of the US constitution with regard to gun control are the same ones who look the other way when the president assumes powers he doesn't have? I'm speaking specifically of bypassing the courts and stating that he is in charge of the federal government.
Just a thought....

Excellent thought.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

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Bill
Oct 5 2006, 02:37 AM
Here's a question, not intended to be too distracting, but it probably will be.....

How come the ones who invoke the sanctity of the US constitution with regard to gun control are the same ones who look the other way when the president assumes powers he doesn't have? I'm speaking specifically of bypassing the courts and stating that he is in charge of the federal government.
Just a thought....

Bill, you can bet if a Democrat were president, they would have a different view. :lol: It all depends on who's in charge.
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maccascruff
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The NRA sadly has a very strong lobby and there probably will not be new laws passed without many more deaths. I find that very sad.

As for what Bill said, somebody did and continues to not follow the Constitution with regards to a certain war. Doesn't matter if he is Democrat or Republican. The Constitution of this country should apply to him.
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maccascruff
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JeffLynnesBeard
Oct 4 2006, 01:22 PM
Why? Because the most determined gun nut can hire a lawyer and argue that it his is fundamental right to own a gun because it's in the American constitution. As I said, it needs to be a privilege, not a right.

This is exactly right, Andy. These people do hire lawyers and argue they have a right to own a gun. Nobody but criminals need thise weapons of war in their home. They are met to kill and they do--over and over and over.
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Bill
Oct 5 2006, 01:37 AM
How come the ones who invoke the sanctity of the US constitution with regard to gun control are the same ones who look the other way when the president assumes powers he doesn't have? I'm speaking specifically of bypassing the courts and stating that he is in charge of the federal government.

The only thing the US Constitution says about gun control is:

Amendment II – 1789
 
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.


As for President Bush bypassing the courts, some would say he has not. Some would say he has the authority to do so as granted by Congress in 2003. Some would say President Clinton did the same thing (to a much smaller degree).

As for President Bush saying he is in charge, few modern presidents have not done so.
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Bill
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Again, not to drag this thread OT, but....

Some might say that Congress granted Bush the authority to bypass the courts but they would be kidding themselves. All the act says is that the President is authorised to fight terrorism, not to dodge the constitution. You could use the same logic to argue that if the president deems is necessary to eat babies in order to fight terror, then he is authorised under the act to do so.

In any case, doesn't the constitution override any laws that may be enacted contrary to it?
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maccascruff
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I think if we had a fair court system, the Constitution would take precedence on what Congress authorized Bush to do. Instead, we have Attorney General Gonzalez. :angry:
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mozart8mytoe
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Bill
Oct 6 2006, 11:07 AM
Again, not to drag this thread OT, but....

Too late.

Bill
Oct 6 2006, 11:07 AM
All the act says is that the President is authorised to fight terrorism, not to dodge the constitution. You could use the same logic to argue that if the president deems is necessary to eat babies in order to fight terror, then he is authorised under the act to do so.

Hey, whatever it takes to fight those terrofacists. But when you consider how difficult it is for the president to swallow a pretzel, I think the babies are safe.

Bill
Oct 6 2006, 11:07 AM
In any case, doesn't the constitution override any laws that may be enacted contrary to it?

No. The US Constitution is a living document. It is meant to be amended and interpreted as situations change. Many laws have been written that might be unconstitutional and many have been written that blatantly are. That is where the Supreme Court comes in.

If the Democrats want to call President Bush a facist dictator, that is ok. I know the Republicans would do the same if a Democrat were president under the same circumstances. But when President Bush does indeed go too far there is always someone willing to take it to court and the Supreme Court has and will take him down a peg or two as needed. Bush can never be reelected, but most of Congress can. Republican or Democrat, they are watching the numbers and they hear the people (not that they always listen).

The thing is, plenty of presidents have assumed greater power than their predecessors. In the long run it makes the office stronger, which I think is a good thing. Most 19th Century presidents were pretty weak. Does that mean the president is allowed to go too far? Of course not, but who decides what is too far, the Democrats or the Republicans? Fortunately, neither. Those three branches have a funny way of keeping things in check.
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maccascruff
Oct 6 2006, 11:44 AM
I think if we had a fair court system, the Constitution would take precedence on what Congress authorized Bush to do. Instead, we have Attorney General Gonzalez. :angry:

I just keep reading this repeatedly and I am not really sure what you mean.

The Supreme Court interprets the Constitution. The Attorney General has no control over the Supreme Court.

I agree that our court system is unfair. I think most people would, Democrat or Republican. Each side just thinks it leans too far in the other direction.
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The office of the President of the United States to be stronger is a good thing. No WAY JOSE.
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theonlyfab4fan
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No. The US Constitution is a living document. It is meant to be amended and interpreted as situations change.


Didn`t you also say on an earlier thread that you are not in favor of tearing apart the constitution.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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Iluvpeter
Oct 7 2006, 05:24 AM
The office of the President of the United States to be stronger is a good thing. No WAY JOSE.

Compared to the interpretations of presidents like Buchanan and Hoover, absolutely.

theonlyfab4fan
Oct 7 2006, 05:55 AM
Didn`t you also say on an earlier thread that you are not in favor of tearing apart the constitution.

Probably. I would vehemently oppose a complete rewrite, but we cannot consider it entirely set in stone. That would leave us still with the 3/5 compromise. Article Five even tells us exactly how to make amends. I have absolutely no problem with changes like the Fourteenth Amendment, but I have serious problems with candidates who want to make changes for no other reason than to solicit votes.

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What more power does the president need since they declare war when they feel like. From the states point view the corresion of state power verus federal power has that been a good thing.
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Bill
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mozart8mytoe
Oct 7 2006, 03:17 PM

Hey, whatever it takes to fight those terrofacists.  But when you consider how difficult it is for the president to swallow a pretzel, I think the babies are safe.

Touche!

mozart8mytoe
Oct 7 2006, 03:17 PM

No. The US Constitution is a living document. It is meant to be amended and interpreted as situations change. Many laws have been written that might be unconstitutional and many have been written that blatantly are. That is where the Supreme Court comes in.

Works for me! But they have to get things in the right order. If the constitution needs changing, then change it and then enact the new laws. For better or worse though, getting people to vote in favour of the referendu, would be tricky. But that doesn't justify trying to get around it by enacting an unconstitutional law and hoping nobody challenges it.
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maccascruff
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Bill
Oct 8 2006, 07:33 AM

But that doesn't justify trying to get around it by enacting an unconstitutional law and hoping nobody challenges it.

And this is where the Attorney General comes in. He has given Bush advice about some things that I consider to go against the Constitution and nobody challenges it or it takes years to challenge it.
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