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Liberal for Life; The Abortion Discussion Thread
Topic Started: Jun 10 2006, 09:23 AM (3,016 Views)
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Alright, the time is now to wade into the waters of controversy. A thread about abortion. I am pro-life and can't wait for the US Supreme Court to overtune Roe v Wade. I feel it is coming soon. Why is it us liberals will fight against the death sentence yet support the death sentence of abortion?

Topic is now open for discussion but please remember to be civil to one another. Lets show those pm.com nazis that we can hold intelligent debate in posting freedom.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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I support the woman's right to choose what to do with her own body. I believe that abortion is something which should be carefully considered and presented along with a whole range of different options at that stage of a person's life, but it should remain an option. I was reading recently about at 12 year old girl in the UK who had become pregnant. She's opting to have the baby, but if she had wanted an abortion, I believe that the option of having one should have been open to her, as indeed it was.

A lot of people use different forms of contraception because they don't feel emotionally or financially ready for a child. Some people already have children and don't want any more - some people never want children. What if the contraception fails for these people? Adoption is the answer many anti-abortionists give, but there's a huge emotional pain of carrying a child to term and then giving it away. I believe that if people do not wish to have a baby, they should have the choice not to - and I also believe that everyone is entitled to a full sex life regardless of whether they want a child or not, so abstainance isn't a viable or realistic solution.

Abortion should not be used readily or easily, it should be a last option when everything else has failed or used to rescue emotionally vulnerable people (the very young, the raped, the victims of incest, people who have been abandoned by their partners) from a life they simply do not want. The lives of people who are already living are just as, or perhaps more important than the foetuses they feel they have to terminate... and it's something they will have to live with for the rest of their lives.

Regardless of whether abortion is legal, people will still find ways of having them. I'm in full support of state-sponsored abortion rather than people going to other countries to have the procedure done or perhaps even to 'back-street' clinics where the professionalism or hygiene of those who practise may be questionable. People will always want and always have abortions - let us help them the do it safely and without shame. It's the woman's body - it's the woman's right to choose.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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theonlyfab4fan
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
Andy said very well what I wanted to say myself.

I`ll be quite honest with you and tell that when I was younger I didn`t feel like this. I believed that abortion was wrong and it sickened and horrified me that people were allowed to do this. As I got older and I began to do volunteer work with underpriveledged kids. Many who had suffered horrible abuse and rampant neglect, babies born addicted to drugs, I began to think that these children certainly were done no favors by being given the gift of life and they have a quality of life that was so poor and inferior that they virtually had no chance of ever making anything of themselves short of a miracle.

I am thankful that I am past the stage in my life that I would have to make such a choice because I can only begin to imagine how traumatic a decision like that must be. I personally don`t think it is something that I would have ever chosen for myself, but I am certainly not going to set myself up as the voice and conscious for someone elses life and tell them they may not. However, I do not agree with late term abortion. I feel the first trimester is appropriate and after that I have a problem with it.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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Merry
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Both of you have spoken so elequently on the subject that I can't really add to it, other than to say that I agree with you. I'm not robotic, but you reflect my sentiments.

I don't think I would ever have chosen to go through an abortion myself, but I do believe a woman has the right to decide for herself what is best for her and her situation. A child shouldn't have to come into this world under the wrong circumstances and be made to suffer. The decision should never be dictated by anyone.


:) Merry


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kink
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on again, off again
JeffLynnesBeard
Jun 10 2006, 02:13 PM
I support the woman's right to choose what to do with her own body. I believe that abortion is something which should be carefully considered and presented along with a whole range of different options at that stage of a person's life, but it should remain an option. I was reading recently about at 12 year old girl in the UK who had become pregnant. She's opting to have the baby, but if she had wanted an abortion, I believe that the option of having one should have been open to her, as indeed it was.

A lot of people use different forms of contraception because they don't feel emotionally or financially ready for a child. Some people already have children and don't want any more - some people never want children. What if the contraception fails for these people? Adoption is the answer many anti-abortionists give, but there's a huge emotional pain of carrying a child to term and then giving it away. I believe that if people do not wish to have a baby, they should have the choice not to - and I also believe that everyone is entitled to a full sex life regardless of whether they want a child or not, so abstainance isn't a viable or realistic solution.

Abortion should not be used readily or easily, it should be a last option when everything else has failed or used to rescue emotionally vulnerable people (the very young, the raped, the victims of incest, people who have been abandoned by their partners) from a life they simply do not want. The lives of people who are already living are just as, or perhaps more important than the foetuses they feel they have to terminate... and it's something they will have to live with for the rest of their lives.

Regardless of whether abortion is legal, people will still find ways of having them. I'm in full support of state-sponsored abortion rather than people going to other countries to have the procedure done or perhaps even to 'back-street' clinics where the professionalism or hygiene of those who practise may be questionable. People will always want and always have abortions - let us help them the do it safely and without shame. It's the woman's body - it's the woman's right to choose.

Andy said it all.
Thanks.

The only thing I can add is that I don't even consider the foetus in its first days/ weeks after conception to be a living organism, because it isn't. Christians argue with themselves whether the "soul" enters the body right after it has been conceived or after some time etc, but all this does not make any sense to me since I am not a christian. Therefore, I don't believe it is "murder", as many say. Yes, it is not a pleasant procedure and should be the last option if something has gone wrong, but it should be every woman's right to choose nonetheless.

I would write more but the England game just started.
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Wow. What can I add to this discussion? :o Well said, everyone. You've thought of everything, and very nicely, too!
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waitingforatrim

I totally agree with what's been said here. I get alot of grief from my fellow conservative friends on this but I stand my ground.

I agree in a woman's right to choose.

Very well said everyone!
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Samwise
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Well, I can't add a whole lot to what's been said already - abortion is a complicated subject, and I have a difficult time articulating myself about it anyway. I'll admit I'm not a big fan of the idea, but I believe it should be left open as an option nevertheless.
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Sandra

Tony :)

As a member of both this board and PM.COM can I request that you change your description of the members of PM.COM to something a little less antagonistic.

I didn't participate on the thread at PM.COM on this topic but I read every word.

I'm undecided if I want to participated here or not.

Thanks Sandra
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Merry
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Oh I see what you're referring to, Sandra! I had barely taken that in when I posted! :blush:

I think most of us know we are above name-calling and sniping, that's not how we do things around here.

I just want to say I distance myself from that particular word, it's not merited. They have their own set of rules, and I respect them for that. Heaven knows, they have enough to deal with, as it is!



:) Merry


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maccagirl1428
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tonyhemp
Jun 10 2006, 04:23 AM
Alright, the time is now to wade into the waters of controversy. A thread about abortion. I am pro-life and can't wait for the US Supreme Court to overtune Roe v Wade. I feel it is coming soon. Why is it us liberals will fight against the death sentence yet support the death sentence of abortion?

Topic is now open for discussion but please remember to be civil to one another. Lets show those pm.com nazis that we can hold intelligent debate in posting freedom.

Im PRO CHOICE~A woman should have the right to chose its her body~

They will never overturn roe vs wade~you want woman,teens ect. to die???? Like they did in the 50s?

"Why is it us liberals will fight against the death sentence yet support the death sentence of abortion?"

IM not a 'liberal" I agree with the death sentence in some cases~

Or do you want some many woman having kids to die in child birth? Or how about this there are so many teens thorwing away there babies :angry: ~Or maybe having them going hungery is your style?
<_<
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
JeffLynnesBeard
Jun 10 2006, 05:13 AM
I support the woman's right to choose what to do with her own body. I believe that abortion is something which should be carefully considered and presented along with a whole range of different options at that stage of a person's life, but it should remain an option. I was reading recently about at 12 year old girl in the UK who had become pregnant. She's opting to have the baby, but if she had wanted an abortion, I believe that the option of having one should have been open to her, as indeed it was.

A lot of people use different forms of contraception because they don't feel emotionally or financially ready for a child. Some people already have children and don't want any more - some people never want children. What if the contraception fails for these people? Adoption is the answer many anti-abortionists give, but there's a huge emotional pain of carrying a child to term and then giving it away. I believe that if people do not wish to have a baby, they should have the choice not to - and I also believe that everyone is entitled to a full sex life regardless of whether they want a child or not, so abstainance isn't a viable or realistic solution.

Abortion should not be used readily or easily, it should be a last option when everything else has failed or used to rescue emotionally vulnerable people (the very young, the raped, the victims of incest, people who have been abandoned by their partners) from a life they simply do not want. The lives of people who are already living are just as, or perhaps more important than the foetuses they feel they have to terminate... and it's something they will have to live with for the rest of their lives.

Regardless of whether abortion is legal, people will still find ways of having them. I'm in full support of state-sponsored abortion rather than people going to other countries to have the procedure done or perhaps even to 'back-street' clinics where the professionalism or hygiene of those who practise may be questionable. People will always want and always have abortions - let us help them the do it safely and without shame. It's the woman's body - it's the woman's right to choose.

I can't say much more than what Andy has said. If abortions are made illegal, women will just find other ways to get them. They did before Roe v. Wade and they will if it oveturned.

I don't like labels either. I don't always take the liberal point of view, despite what same have said about me.
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maccagirl1428
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maccascruff
Jun 10 2006, 04:52 PM
JeffLynnesBeard
Jun 10 2006, 05:13 AM
I support the woman's right to choose what to do with her own body.  I believe that abortion is something which should be carefully considered and presented along with a whole range of different options at that stage of a person's life, but it should remain an option.  I was reading recently about at 12 year old girl in the UK who had become pregnant.  She's opting to have the baby, but if she had wanted an abortion, I believe that the option of having one should have been open to her, as indeed it was. 

A lot of people use different forms of contraception because they don't feel emotionally or financially ready for a child.  Some people already have children and don't want any more - some people never want children.  What if the contraception fails for these people?  Adoption is the answer many anti-abortionists give, but there's a huge emotional pain of carrying a child to term and then giving it away.  I believe that if people do not wish to have a baby, they should have the choice not to - and I also believe that everyone is entitled to a full sex life regardless of whether they want a child or not, so abstainance isn't a viable or realistic solution.

Abortion should not be used readily or easily, it should be a last option when everything else has failed or used to rescue emotionally vulnerable people (the very young, the raped, the victims of incest, people who have been abandoned by their partners) from a life they simply do not want.  The lives of people who are already living are just as, or perhaps more important than the foetuses they feel they have to terminate... and it's something they will have to live with for the rest of their lives. 

Regardless of whether abortion is legal, people will still find ways of having them.  I'm in full support of state-sponsored abortion rather than people going to other countries to have the procedure done or perhaps even to 'back-street' clinics where the professionalism or hygiene of those who practise may be questionable.  People will always want and always have abortions - let us help them the do it safely and without shame.  It's the woman's body - it's the woman's right to choose.

I can't say much more than what Andy has said. If abortions are made illegal, women will just find other ways to get them. They did before Roe v. Wade and they will if it oveturned.

I don't like labels either. I don't always take the liberal point of view, despite what same have said about me.

Yes they would but the danger in that if there done correctly the woman can bleed to death~I dotnt want to go back to them days~Hi Maccascruff
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maccascruff
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Women used to use coat hangars. Do we really want it to be like that again?
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maccagirl1428
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maccascruff
Jun 10 2006, 04:58 PM
Women used to use coat hangars. Do we really want it to be like that again?

I vote for NO~!
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Bill
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I'm with Tony.

Of course a woman has a right to choose what she does with her own body. We know what causes pregnancy and we know how to prevent it. If such precautions aren't taken, then why take it out on the baby?

Inevitably people will ask, "What about rape?"

Well, what about it? A baby conceived by rape is still a baby. I know that sounds harsh and it makes the violation even worse, but how is a baby conceived that way any less innocent than one conceived merely by "accident"?

You really don't fully appreciate the situation until it has effected you.

I'm not going to go into detail, suffice to say that if abortion were a valid option many years ago for a teenager who had been raped, then I wouldn't be here having this discussion.

Nobody knows when life begins. That's a matter of faith.
What is a matter of fact is that a feotus is something that, if left to nature, will grow into a human being. It must therefore be given all te rights that such a fact implies.
Put a puppet on it.
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Bill
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maccascruff
Jun 11 2006, 07:58 AM
Women used to use coat hangars. Do we really want it to be like that again?

That was before the pill, before safe IUDs, before spermicide and before easy access to condoms.

I'm sorry, but any couple (and I stress COUPLE because it takes two) who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy have no-one to blame but themselves. It does not follow that stopping medical abortions would lead to backyard abortions.

Surely what we should be striving for is not easy availability of abortion, but an elimintaion of the 'need' for it in the first place.
Put a puppet on it.
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wings4ever_vzla
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JeffLynnesBeard
Jun 10 2006, 11:13 AM
I support the woman's right to choose what to do with her own body.

yeah but since now it is not her own body..
there is a life!!!!
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I support the woman's right to choose what to do with her own body.


If it was only her body then I would have no problem with it, but there is a life growing inside hers. What about that childs right to live? What about your rights as a father?

Quote:
 
I believe that abortion is something which should be carefully considered and presented along with a whole range of different options at that stage of a person's life, but it should remain an option. 


Maybe options like abstinence or birth control BEFORE the pregnancy should have been considered.

Quote:
 
I was reading recently about at 12 year old girl in the UK who had become pregnant.  She's opting to have the baby, but if she had wanted an abortion, I believe that the option of having one should have been open to her, as indeed it was. 


In America a 12 year old in certain states can make the decision to abort without even talking to her parents. A child of that age would not be allowed to decide any other type of medical procedure. Does she waive her rights to sue if something goes wrong? Only an adult can do that.

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A lot of people use different forms of contraception because they don't feel emotionally or financially ready for a child.


Then maybe they shouldn't be having sex.

Quote:
 
Some people already have children and don't want any more - some people never want children.  What if the contraception fails for these people?  Adoption is the answer many anti-abortionists give, but there's a huge emotional pain of carrying a child to term and then giving it away.


And there isn't a huge emotional pain of killing your unborn child? If there isn't something is wrong there. We have made children something that is disposable and that is wrong. IMO.

Quote:
 
I believe that if people do not wish to have a baby, they should have the choice not to - and I also believe that everyone is entitled to a full sex life regardless of whether they want a child or not, so abstainance isn't a viable or realistic solution.


I can wholeheartedly agree with you about abstainance, however here in the 21st Century we have all sorts of forms of bith control up to and including sterilization. Don't want to be a father, get a vasectomy. Don't want to be a mother, get your tubes tied. Do something to your body, don't kill an innocents childs.

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Abortion should not be used readily or easily, it should be a last option when everything else has failed or used to rescue emotionally vulnerable people (the very young, the raped, the victims of incest, people who have been abandoned by their partners) from a life they simply do not want.  The lives of people who are already living are just as, or perhaps more important than the foetuses they feel they have to terminate... and it's something they will have to live with for the rest of their lives. 


Lets kill the rapists, not their victims.

Quote:
 
Regardless of whether abortion is legal, people will still find ways of having them.  I'm in full support of state-sponsored abortion rather than people going to other countries to have the procedure done or perhaps even to 'back-street' clinics where the professionalism or hygiene of those who practise may be questionable.  People will always want and always have abortions - let us help them the do it safely and without shame.


Gee don't we have morning after pills now? Women won't be going to back alleys, this is the 21st Century.

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It's the woman's body - it's the woman's right to choose


The body she is killing is not hers, sorry but thats the truth.
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Sandra
Jun 10 2006, 04:28 PM
Tony :)

As a member of both this board and PM.COM can I request that you change your description of the members of PM.COM to something a little less antagonistic.

I didn't participate on the thread at PM.COM on this topic but I read every word.

I'm undecided if I want to participated here or not.

Thanks Sandra

Actually that is directed to the Moderators and administrators, sorry it offended you.
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maccagirl1428
Jun 10 2006, 09:43 PM
tonyhemp
Jun 10 2006, 04:23 AM
Alright, the time is now to wade into the waters of controversy. A thread about abortion. I am pro-life and can't wait for the US Supreme Court to overtune Roe v Wade. I feel it is coming soon. Why is it us liberals will fight against the death sentence yet support the death sentence of abortion?

Topic is now open for discussion but please remember to be civil to one another. Lets show those pm.com nazis that we can hold intelligent debate in posting freedom.

Im PRO CHOICE~A woman should have the right to chose its her body~

They will never overturn roe vs wade~you want woman,teens ect. to die???? Like they did in the 50s?

"Why is it us liberals will fight against the death sentence yet support the death sentence of abortion?"

IM not a 'liberal" I agree with the death sentence in some cases~

Or do you want some many woman having kids to die in child birth? Or how about this there are so many teens thorwing away there babies :angry: ~Or maybe having them going hungery is your style?
<_<


Im glad you have an opinion about this subject, everyone should. You say you are PRO CHOICE, why not say pro death? Doesn't sound as good, does it.

Sorry to tell you but they will overturn roe vs wade, it is coming soon. As for women dying, I am against that as much as I am against abortion. I will say one thing though, if they wind up going down dark alleys to get this illegal (soon to be) procedure done it is their CHOICE. Something you I am sure of support. Thankfully we have morning after pills and they won't have to resort to such an extreme thing like they did in the 50s? It is after all the 21st Century.

By the way I would think throwing away babies was something you would support, free choice and all. Wonder what the ratio is of aborted children filling up the landfills to born children being left in the street? Either way sounds like your style.
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Bill
Jun 11 2006, 03:51 AM
maccascruff
Jun 11 2006, 07:58 AM
Women used to use coat hangars.  Do we really want it to be like that again?

That was before the pill, before safe IUDs, before spermicide and before easy access to condoms.

I'm sorry, but any couple (and I stress COUPLE because it takes two) who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy have no-one to blame but themselves. It does not follow that stopping medical abortions would lead to backyard abortions.

Surely what we should be striving for is not easy availability of abortion, but an elimintaion of the 'need' for it in the first place.

Couldn't have said it better Bill.
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beatlechick
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In Paul's Arms!
tonyhemp
Jun 10 2006, 11:30 PM
maccagirl1428
Jun 10 2006, 09:43 PM
tonyhemp
Jun 10 2006, 04:23 AM
Alright, the time is now to wade into the waters of controversy. A thread about abortion. I am pro-life and can't wait for the US Supreme Court to overtune Roe v Wade. I feel it is coming soon. Why is it us liberals will fight against the death sentence yet support the death sentence of abortion?

Topic is now open for discussion but please remember to be civil to one another. Lets show those pm.com nazis that we can hold intelligent debate in posting freedom.

Im PRO CHOICE~A woman should have the right to chose its her body~

They will never overturn roe vs wade~you want woman,teens ect. to die???? Like they did in the 50s?

"Why is it us liberals will fight against the death sentence yet support the death sentence of abortion?"

IM not a 'liberal" I agree with the death sentence in some cases~

Or do you want some many woman having kids to die in child birth? Or how about this there are so many teens thorwing away there babies :angry: ~Or maybe having them going hungery is your style?
<_<


Im glad you have an opinion about this subject, everyone should. You say you are PRO CHOICE, why not say pro death? Doesn't sound as good, does it.

Sorry to tell you but they will overturn roe vs wade, it is coming soon. As for women dying, I am against that as much as I am against abortion. I will say one thing though, if they wind up going down dark alleys to get this illegal (soon to be) procedure done it is their CHOICE. Something you I am sure of support. Thankfully we have morning after pills and they won't have to resort to such an extreme thing like they did in the 50s? It is after all the 21st Century.

By the way I would think throwing away babies was something you would support, free choice and all. Wonder what the ratio is of aborted children filling up the landfills to born children being left in the street? Either way sounds like your style.

Tony, while I respect your opinion I have totally disagree with it. I think that it is a woman's right to NOT carry that unwanted baby. Yes, I know there are plenty of people who want to adopt and I also know that this a very viable option. There are always options but if you are not that person carrying that little life inside of you, you have no idea how you would feel about carrying that little life. As for Roe v Wade being overturned, not a chance. There are to many people, both men and women, who can not be bought out by the religious right. To many people who don't want to see us go back to the back-alley doctors, to many people who don't want another person to die or become to scarred to carry a baby when they are able to. Do I think that birth control should be used? Most definitely but there are cases where that is not a viable option. Cases that inspite of birth control being used, and yes this does happen, the women becomes pregnant anyway. In the case of rape, chances are very good that a condom is not used. In my state of California, even if Roe v Wade were to be overturned, we have our own laws on abortion that can't be touched by anyone but the constituents of California. Being a woman and a Christian I think abortion, for myself only, is disgusting however I will not and can not tell another person that abortion is not their choice. I'm not living their life as they are not living mine. I would listen and try to advise but will not tell them that what they are contemplating to do is wrong.

Oh yeah, coat hangers were still being used when birth control became the norm.
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Sandra

tonyhemp
Jun 11 2006, 06:15 AM
Sandra
Jun 10 2006, 04:28 PM
Tony  :)

As a member of both this board and PM.COM can I request that you change your description of the members of PM.COM to something a little less antagonistic.

I didn't participate on the thread at PM.COM on this topic but I read every word.

I'm undecided if I want to participated here or not.

Thanks Sandra

Actually that is directed to the Moderators and administrators, sorry it offended you.

No need to apologise Tony lets just say that it is your opinion, it is not mine.
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I'm afraid my ears are a bit less open to men who are vehemently against abortion. And there tend to be more of them (I wonder why...). I did read all of your posts, guys, and certainly appreciate the good points raised and the consideration put into them. But I do think it comes down to whether you're able to put yourself in that position and what you make of it then.

As for rape - again, I don't mean to sound insensitive but I have a feeling that men can't as easily relate to rape victims as women can.

If that offends anyone, here's a less personal point: contraception does fail. What about that? Boo hoo, too bad for you? Is the mother's life less valuable than the fetus'?

Bill, I am very glad that you made it to this earth for whatever reason - we need people like you. But I can't imagine the hell that women go through when they're raped and then to find out that they are pregnant as a result. I could not do it and I am positive that most people could not.
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tonyhemp
Jun 11 2006, 06:30 AM
Im glad you have an opinion about this subject, everyone should. You say you are PRO CHOICE, why not say pro death? Doesn't sound as good, does it.

Sorry to tell you but they will overturn roe vs wade, it is coming soon. As for women dying, I am against that as much as I am against abortion. I will say one thing though, if they wind up going down dark alleys to get this illegal (soon to be) procedure done it is their CHOICE. Something you I am sure of support. Thankfully we have morning after pills and they won't have to resort to such an extreme thing like they did in the 50s? It is after all the 21st Century.

By the way I would think throwing away babies was something you would support, free choice and all. Wonder what the ratio is of aborted children filling up the landfills to born children being left in the street? Either way sounds like your style.

We don't call ourselves pro death for the same reason you don't call yourselves anti-choice.

So you do support the morning after pill but not abortion? You know, I believe it's called the early abortion pill over here. It terminates pregnancy in the earliest stages. Are you alright with abortion a couple of days after it is conceived and no later?
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Bill
Jun 11 2006, 03:48 AM
Nobody knows when life begins. That's a matter of faith.
What is a matter of fact is that a feotus is something that, if left to nature, will grow into a human being. It must therefore be given all te rights that such a fact implies.

I should really stop eating chicken eggs! :blink:
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theonlyfab4fan
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
Tony I totally respect what you have to say and you use many of the very same arguments that I used to use myself. As I stated earlier I didn`t always feel about abortion like I do now. But I do find one thing very puzzling. Is morning after pill really any different than an abortion. I believe the purpose is to make sure that if an egg did get fertilized during intercourse that it will not be able to implant. It doesn`t stop conception. And if you believe that life begins at conception then isn`t that killing a human life too. Furthermore birth control pills work by making the womb a hostile environment so that the fertilized egg cannot be implanted. It too does not stop conception, so are these forms of birth control murder?

With the advent of reliable early detection home pregnancy tests many women are able to make a decision and act well before the end of the first trimester of pregnancy.

I don`t think that it is a decision that should be taken lightly. I don`t think that it should be abused and I do know that there are women who are just lazy and careless and have many many abortions and that I have a problem with. A problem with those women and not the procedure.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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theonlyfab4fan
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Ah, I see Fiona made many of my arguments for me while I was composing my own post.

Very nicely said.

You make a very good point too about men not being able to fully realize a womens point of view in these matters. It isn`t a failing on their part that they can`t see it from our angle, merely a fact of nature. Just like there are many things we will never see from a male point of view because we lack the proper equipment.

Something else Tony said that I forgot to speak about. You asked what about the rights of the father. Unfortunately there are all too many fathers who like to strut and brag about their fertile prowess but have no interest in being a real parent. It is extremely difficult under the best of circumstances to raise a child properly and that difficulty is magnified when you have to do it alone. It can of course be done and be done well by one as many have. However ideally the odds are better for success in bringing up a well rounded fully functioning contributing member of society when you have two working together at it.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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youngformyage
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Just to point out:

Pro Choice means the Womans' right to choose, that is:

Whether to keep the baby

Have the baby adopted

Have an abortion.
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
I realize that there are many forms of contraception out there, but I had a teenager on pm.com ask me where they could be obtained. If you are a teenager and going to have sex and don't want to talk to your parents, you may well find yourself with an unwanted pregnancy. What to do then?

Bill, I'm really glad you made it to this earth.

I have been fighting for women's rights in many areas since the 70's and I will continue to do so. It's a woman's body and we have a right to choose what happens to it. And all the stuff about abstinence--that just isn't realistic with those raging hormones.
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Bill
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MaccaByrd
Jun 11 2006, 10:57 PM
tonyhemp
Jun 11 2006, 06:30 AM
Im glad you have an opinion about this subject, everyone should. You say you are PRO CHOICE, why not say pro death? Doesn't sound as good, does it.

Sorry to tell you but they will overturn roe vs wade, it is coming soon. As for women dying, I am against that as much as I am against abortion. I will say one thing though, if they wind up going down dark alleys to get this illegal (soon to be) procedure done it is their CHOICE. Something you I am sure of support. Thankfully we have morning after pills and they won't have to resort to such an extreme thing like they did in the 50s? It is after all the 21st Century.

By the way I would think throwing away babies was something you would support, free choice and all. Wonder what the ratio is of aborted children filling up the landfills to born children being left in the street? Either way sounds like your style.

We don't call ourselves pro death for the same reason you don't call yourselves anti-choice.

So you do support the morning after pill but not abortion? You know, I believe it's called the early abortion pill over here. It terminates pregnancy in the earliest stages. Are you alright with abortion a couple of days after it is conceived and no later?

Actually, the morning after pill brings on early menstruation before the egg can be fertilised. That's why it has to be taken within 48 hours. Abortion drugs like RU486 only work after conception.
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theonlyfab4fan
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http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationshi...ngafterpill.htm


This is a link to a brief article descibing how one form of the morning after pill works. It states that it is believed to work by preventing the release of an egg or by making the womb a hostile environment to prevent a fertilized egg from implanting. So it does not necessarily prevent fertilization.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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Bill
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MaccaByrd
Jun 11 2006, 10:51 PM

Bill, I am very glad that you made it to this earth for whatever reason - we need people like you. But I can't imagine the hell that women go through when they're raped and then to find out that they are pregnant as a result. I could not do it and I am positive that most people could not.

I fully understand your point Fiona but we have to remember that there is a second victim in such situations. And yes, I know that makes it even harder on the rape victim but as we constantly remind ourselves with regard to other issues,
Two wrongs don't make a right.

And to be realistic about it, unless a woman has actually been in the situation of having an unwanted pregnancy, then her view on the issue is just as abstract as any man's.

Speaking as a male who does not want children, I'm just as wary as any woman about unwanted pregancy. Fortunately for me, I know what causes it, and I know what steps to take to avoid it.
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kink
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MaccaByrd
Jun 11 2006, 03:51 PM
I'm afraid my ears are a bit less open to men who are vehemently against abortion. And there tend to be more of them (I wonder why...). I did read all of your posts, guys, and certainly appreciate the good points raised and the consideration put into them. But I do think it comes down to whether you're able to put yourself in that position and what you make of it then.

As for rape - again, I don't mean to sound insensitive but I have a feeling that men can't as easily relate to rape victims as women can.

If that offends anyone, here's a less personal point: contraception does fail. What about that? Boo hoo, too bad for you? Is the mother's life less valuable than the fetus'?

Bill, I am very glad that you made it to this earth for whatever reason - we need people like you. But I can't imagine the hell that women go through when they're raped and then to find out that they are pregnant as a result. I could not do it and I am positive that most people could not.

Thank you Fiona - great post.
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theonlyfab4fan
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Bill
Jun 11 2006, 03:33 PM
MaccaByrd
Jun 11 2006, 10:51 PM

Bill, I am very glad that you made it to this earth for whatever reason - we need people like you.  But I can't imagine the hell that women go through when they're raped and then to find out that they are pregnant as a result.  I could not do it and I am positive that most people could not.

I fully understand your point Fiona but we have to remember that there is a second victim in such situations. And yes, I know that makes it even harder on the rape victim but as we constantly remind ourselves with regard to other issues,
Two wrongs don't make a right.

And to be realistic about it, unless a woman has actually been in the situation of having an unwanted pregnancy, then her view on the issue is just as abstract as any man's.

Speaking as a male who does not want children, I'm just as wary as any woman about unwanted pregancy. Fortunately for me, I know what causes it, and I know what steps to take to avoid it.

Bill, you raise some very interesting and thought provoking points. I am glad that you are a careful thoughtful man who knows what he does and does not want. If all of those careful precations you have taken should fail, and it has been known to happen, because the only thing 100 percent is abstinence. What would you do if faced with impending unwated fatherhood. I am sure that you are one of the good ones that would bite the bullet and make it work. There are many men who aren`t like that and I think that women have to consider that too when they find themselves in that situation.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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Bill
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maccascruff
Jun 12 2006, 01:20 AM
I realize that there are many forms of contraception out there, but I had a teenager on pm.com ask me where they could be obtained. If you are a teenager and going to have sex and don't want to talk to your parents, you may well find yourself with an unwanted pregnancy. What to do then?

Get educated - that's what!

Are people suggesting that abortion is the solution to a f*cked-up sex education?

This is what I'm talking about! Eliminate the problem at the root! (no pun intended)

I'm in full agreement that abstinence is unrealistic, and some would even argue unnatural. So teach people safe sex!!! It's a no-brainer.

And if that doesn't work, then it's just another part of growing up - taking responsibility for your actions. Some people are sensible enough to wear seat-belts from the start. Some people have to be shocked into it by seeing their friend get a fractured skull. And others have to be that kid who gets the fractured skull.

Think about the people you went to school with. Now think about the first ones who had kids. I'll bet they were also the dumbest. Am I right? But they still took responsibility. There are no get-out-of-jail free cards.

Tony made the valid point about the paradox of being against the death penalty and for abortion. I'll take it one further and ask how it's possible to be a vegetarian and in favour of abortion. If we think it's morally or ethically wrong to kill an animal for human convenience (a position I have no problem with), then how can the same values system see nothing morally or ethically wrong with exstinguishing something that would have become a human being? It just doesn't make sense.
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theonlyfab4fan
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Bill there even some who still believe that is wrong to prevent conception from ever occurring. That sex is for procreation and no one should ever try and prevent a pregnancy. Most of us agree that that is a pretty archaic notion. Abortion is not something to be taken lightly. It should be a carefully well thought out decision and only a tool of last resort. I still believe that it isn`t up to me to tell someone else what is best for their life. Choice is what I am for.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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Bill
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theonlyfab4fan
Jun 12 2006, 01:37 AM
Bill, you raise some very interesting and thought provoking points. I am glad that you are a careful thoughtful man who knows what he does and does not want. If all of those careful precations you have taken should fail, and it has been known to happen, because the only thing 100 percent is abstinence. What would you do if faced with impending unwated fatherhood. I am sure that you are one of the good ones that would bite the bullet and make it work. There are many men who aren`t like that and I think that women have to consider that too when they find themselves in that situation.

Fair question. I'll try to be as honest as I can. The first thing I would do is sh*t myself. And I won't deny for a second that the option of an abortion would be incredibly tempting. But we would have to remember what it really involves. Again, I'll make the analogy with meat. Some eat meat and see nothing wrong with it. Others think it's wrong and refuse to touch it. But there's a group in the middle who think it's wrong, but do it anyway because it's just too hard not to. I think there are a lot of middle ground people on abortion who do think it's wrong but do it anyway because it's the easiest option.
I think in both cases, it's a detachment from the reality of what happens that stops people from being against it.

Luckily for me, I haven't been in that position - although there was a close call once. Close enough to make me start thinking about a ring and a house to rent in the suburbs. Mercifully, St Jude helped me out of that..... in more ways than one. :blush:
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theonlyfab4fan
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
I appreciate your honesty and I am truly thankful that you didn`t find yourself in a situation that was not of your choosing. God Bless Saint Jude.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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Bill
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theonlyfab4fan
Jun 12 2006, 01:55 AM
Bill there even some who still believe that is wrong to prevent conception from ever occurring. That sex is for procreation and no one should ever try and prevent a pregnancy. Most of us agree that that is a pretty archaic notion. Abortion is not something to be taken lightly. It should be a carefully well thought out decision and only a tool of last resort. I still believe that it isn`t up to me to tell someone else what is best for their life. Choice is what I am for.

Yes, the argument against contraception is that it goes against natural law. The problem with that argument is that it can also be used as an argument against driving cars, taking medicine and wearing clothes.

The difference is that the contraception debate (if there even is one) is about the theoretical life where the abortion debate is about an actual life. And that has to change things.


Just as an aside, if I learned that someone had an abortion, it wouldn't change the way I felt about them. Sorry if I'm beating the analogy to death here, but it's the same way a veggie would view a meat eater - you wouldn't stop being their friend (I would hope) - you just have a moral disagreement with a decision they have made. One that you will stand by and defend, while also standing by and defending the friend. That's a good paradox. :)
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
I agree completely with you, Bill, about sex education, but here in the US, churches are trying to prevent it from being taught in schools. They are winning. Why do you think that teenager on pm.com came to me, of all people. I have no children and never wanted one.

I used contraception and had one major scare in my life, too. It can fail. We did everything right, except total abstinence, which isn't realistic, IMO. Luckily, it was only a scare. We were looking at our options and because of medications I was on for some other health issues, my doctor was advising an abortion. Luckily, it didn't turn out that I was pregnant and I don't know what would have happened if it would have been that way. It wasn't and I didn't have to deal with it.

I've few regrets about never having children, but I do wonder about what will happen to me when I'm much older and have no one to help care for me.
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theonlyfab4fan
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Bill
Jun 11 2006, 04:02 PM
theonlyfab4fan
Jun 12 2006, 01:55 AM
Bill there even some who still believe that is wrong to prevent conception from ever occurring.  That sex is for procreation and no one should ever try and prevent a pregnancy.  Most of us agree that that is a pretty archaic notion.  Abortion is not something to be taken lightly.  It should be a carefully well thought out decision and only a tool of last resort.  I still believe that it isn`t up to me to tell someone else what is best for their life.  Choice is what I am for.

Yes, the argument against contraception is that it goes against natural law. The problem with that argument is that it can also be used as an argument against driving cars, taking medicine and wearing clothes.

The difference is that the contraception debate (if there even is one) is about the theoretical life where the abortion debate is about an actual life. And that has to change things.


Just as an aside, if I learned that someone had an abortion, it wouldn't change the way I felt about them. Sorry if I'm beating the analogy to death here, but it's the same way a veggie would view a meat eater - you wouldn't stop being their friend (I would hope) - you just have a moral disagreement with a decision they have made. One that you will stand by and defend, while also standing by and defending the friend. That's a good paradox. :)

That is a very good paradox. I do very much appreciate your point of view and I am glad that you are the kind of human being who is firm in your convictions without judging others for theirs. This kind of thinking is what helps make the world a better place.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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tonyhemp
Jun 11 2006, 06:30 AM

Im glad you have an opinion about this subject, everyone should. You say you are PRO CHOICE, why not say pro death? Doesn't sound as good, does it.

Sorry to tell you but they will overturn roe vs wade, it is coming soon. As for women dying, I am against that as much as I am against abortion. I will say one thing though, if they wind up going down dark alleys to get this illegal (soon to be) procedure done it is their CHOICE. Something you I am sure of support. Thankfully we have morning after pills and they won't have to resort to such an extreme thing like they did in the 50s? It is after all the 21st Century.

By the way I would think throwing away babies was something you would support, free choice and all. Wonder what the ratio is of aborted children filling up the landfills to born children being left in the street? Either way sounds like your style.

Pro Choice is not the same thing as Pro Death. Pro death would signify that if a woman gets pregnant, then she should always get a abortion, in the same way that pro life means; if a woman is pregnant she should never get an abortion. Pro Choice means that women should have the option to go either way.

This option, in my opinion, should contain a very strict set of rules in regards to the age of the fetus, situation of the Mother, and other important factors. Abortion should never be used as a birth control.

As for your comment on having morning after pills, yes, many affluent educated people do, but what about those that have little money and very poor sexual education? Those people will either have the baby and live an even more difficult life or, if abortion is made illegal, resort to back street abortions. There is no way anyone can say with confidence that back street abortions will not happen.

Finally, I find your last comment extremely offensive. Of course no one wants to see a baby who has actually come into the world thrown into a trash can. The whole point of abortion is to prevent an unwanted life from being created, not to kill one that already has been created. We're discussing abortion, not murder. Please keep your topics straight.

And before you say it, no, abortion is not murder. At least I don't believe it is until the fetus has actually developed a capacity to think. Is a comatose human really alive? Maybe they are technically alive, but do they really have any will to live?

I know that personally I would have a lot of trouble going through an abortion myself. In fact, I doubt that I would ever have one. While it is a woman's body, the father should have a definite say in the process as well (provided he's around). Abortion should not be an easy way out, but a very difficult to obtain last resort.
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
I hear around here of babies being found in toilets or dumpsters. Is that any way to treat a newborn baby. Most are found dead or near death and die.

I don't know what I would have done if I had ever been faced with an unwanted pregnancy. It never happened to me, but it did happen to some of my friends. I've known women who did have abortions and women who chose to have the baby. Some of the latter kept the child and some put the child up for adoption.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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If it was only her body then I would have no problem with it, but there is a life growing inside hers. What about that childs right to live? What about your rights as a father?

Of course, if that person is part of a couple, then the decision should be made jointly, but as the woman is the person who is going to have a potentially unwanted child and the person who will actually be undergoing the procedure then the decision is ultimately hers. Fathers have plenty of rights, but this is a subject in which the person who bears the pregnancy has the last say.

tonyhemp
 
JeffLynnesBeard
 
I believe that abortion is something which should be carefully considered and presented along with a whole range of different options at that stage of a person's life, but it should remain an option. 

Maybe options like abstinence or birth control BEFORE the pregnancy should have been considered.

I’m sure I covered this in my opening post. Many people use birth control and it fails. Abstinence is unrealistic.

tonyhemp
 
JeffLynnesBeard
 
A lot of people use different forms of contraception because they don't feel emotionally or financially ready for a child.

Then maybe they shouldn't be having sex.

Again, unrealistic - it’s a really poor argument and yet I hear it time and time again. People have sex - it’s enjoyable, it makes people feel wanted, feel needed… people are not going to stop having sex.

tonyhemp
 
JeffLynnesBeard
 
Some people already have children and don't want any more - some people never want children.  What if the contraception fails for these people?  Adoption is the answer many anti-abortionists give, but there's a huge emotional pain of carrying a child to term and then giving it away.

And there isn't a huge emotional pain of killing your unborn child? If there isn't something is wrong there. We have made children something that is disposable and that is wrong. IMO.

I believe there is a much greater emotional pain in carrying a baby full-term and then giving it away than aborting a foetus. I don’t think that anyone thinks that children are disposable, that’s just melodramatic language.

tonyhemp
 
JeffLynnesBeard
 
I believe that if people do not wish to have a baby, they should have the choice not to - and I also believe that everyone is entitled to a full sex life regardless of whether they want a child or not, so abstinence isn't a viable or realistic solution.

I can wholeheartedly agree with you about abstinence, however here in the 21st Century we have all sorts of forms of birth control up to and including sterilization. Don't want to be a father, get a vasectomy. Don't want to be a mother, get your tubes tied. Do something to your body, don't kill an innocents childs.

Sterilization is too permanent. People reserve the right to change their minds on such subjects - people are required to have extensive counselling before a procedure such as sterilization (even after people have had children already) and I’m sure many minds are changed during the counselling.

tonyhemp
 
JeffLynnesBeard
 
Abortion should not be used readily or easily, it should be a last option when everything else has failed or used to rescue emotionally vulnerable people (the very young, the raped, the victims of incest, people who have been abandoned by their partners) from a life they simply do not want.  The lives of people who are already living are just as, or perhaps more important than the foetuses they feel they have to terminate... and it's something they will have to live with for the rest of their lives. 

Lets kill the rapists, not their victims.

It’s a shame you chose to ignore the whole of that paragraph and chose to make a remark which contradicts your opening post in which you said that you were against the death penalty.

tonyhemp
 
JeffLynnesBeard
 
Regardless of whether abortion is legal, people will still find ways of having them.  I'm in full support of state-sponsored abortion rather than people going to other countries to have the procedure done or perhaps even to 'back-street' clinics where the professionalism or hygiene of those who practise may be questionable.  People will always want and always have abortions - let us help them the do it safely and without shame.

Gee don't we have morning after pills now? Women won't be going to back alleys, this is the 21st Century.

I fail to see the fundamental difference between an abortion and the morning after pill - the only difference is time. The morning after pill does not prevent conception - the egg is almost certainly fertilized in some instances when the morning-after pill induces menstruation. If you make abortion illegal then people will have abortions illegally at much greater risk to their personal health and safety.

tonyhemp
 
JeffLynnesBeard
 
It's the woman's body - it's the woman's right to choose

The body she is killing is not hers, sorry but thats the truth.

The body is part of her - her egg. It is her responsibility to do what she feels is best for her and for the life that is inside her. Sometimes it really is better not to be born into what awaits some people. No money, no support, no future… perhaps in some circumstances it is the right and responsible action to abort.

Where does life begin? You could argue that the millions of sperm in each ejaculation are alive… because they are - they, along with eggs, are life itself. Do you want to ban masturbation? Would you like to lock up hundreds of thousands of spotty teenage boys for committing mass-murder on a daily basis? It’s all about where you draw the line. I think it’s near-hypocrisy to condone the morning after pill and then condemn abortion. By advocating contraception you are admitting that people take active steps to avoid having children - why not extend your line to condoning people having abortions and preventing unwanted lives? It amounts to the same thing… it’s all about avoiding bringing unwanted life into the world and, as long as it’s no later than the first trimester (preferably in the first month for me to feel truly comfortable about it) then I certainly support people’s rights to take that active step.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Bill
Jun 11 2006, 03:33 PM
I fully understand your point Fiona but we have to remember that there is a second victim in such situations.  And yes, I know that makes it even harder on the rape victim but as we constantly remind ourselves with regard to other issues,
Two wrongs don't make a right.

And to be realistic about it, unless a woman has actually been in the situation of having an unwanted pregnancy, then her view on the issue is just as abstract as any man's.

Speaking as a male who does not want children, I'm just as wary as any woman about  unwanted pregancy. Fortunately for me, I know what causes it, and I know what steps to take to avoid it.

Thanks for your replies, Bill. I have understood them all very well until now, I'm afraid. I think your last two paragraphs were a bit unreasonable. I'm sorry.

I don't believe that any man could be able to speculate the same way a woman could when it comes to things like pregnancy and other 'women's issues.' I mean - do men walk around at night knowing that any man could be a potential rapist? As far as the other stuff... well, we have all the bits! Do you think you know just as well as me what menopause would feel like? :P I think you get the picture.

When a man and a woman are in a serious relationship and there is an unwanted pregnancy - however much anguish the man might feel, I don't believe that it would be as much as the woman would. In fact, that man could flee the country and no one would bat an eyelash. A woman can't flee her pregnancy and if she tried to through an abortion she would face all kinds of problems. When a couple is pregnant, it is the woman who goes through the majority of mental, social, emotional, and all of the physical strain.

I am just a bit surprised at those last couple of comments! You may now retaliate. ;)
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Why take the fact that two people couldn't control themselves out on a fetus?

Making abortion OK just makes guilt-free sex that much easier. :( It's more than just a roll in the hay, folks. There's the very real possibility of concieving a life when you have sex. That's why it should be thought through carefully and not just jumped into hap-hazardly, regardless of how good it feels.

And the rape thing is tougher for me, but I lean more towards Bill's thinking on this.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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beep
Jun 11 2006, 09:31 PM
Why take the fact that two people couldn't control themselves out on a fetus?

Making abortion OK just makes guilt-free sex that much easier. :( It's more than just a roll in the hay, folks. There's the very real possibility of concieving a life when you have sex. That's why it should be thought through carefully and not just jumped into hap-hazardly, regardless of how good it feels.

And the rape thing is tougher for me, but I lean more towards Bill's thinking on this.

Just one question - why shouldn't sex be guilt free?
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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kink
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beep
Jun 11 2006, 11:31 PM
Why take the fact that two people couldn't control themselves out on a fetus?

I think it's more than just a couple not being able to control themselves. All the possibilities have already been mentioned.
Andy put it perfectly: why shouldn't sex be guilt-free? Since when is it something bad? One of our differences from animals is that we have sex for fun. How much more can we limit out instincts and impulses? Sex is something natural. Just because babies happen that way it doesn't mean anyone should stop having it.
Plus the foetus is not even a living organism. In psychology we don't even say the infant has a self. I find the whole "the foetus's rights" thing absurd. The foetus is part of a woman's body, not something independent that can have an opinion and rights. But then that's just me.

Edit:
One of the reasons I am pro-choice is that I believe parenting is the most demanding and responsible job in the world. When people who are not ready are 'forced' to have a child, chances are they are not going to be good parents. Human psychology is too complex and you never know how an unwanted child is going to influence the parents. Seriously, most of our issues begin in childhood, and it scares me to think how scarred some 'unwanted' children may end up. Even the 'wanted' ones may end up with terrible conflicts because of irresponsible parenting. I don't know, it's an issue that bothers me a lot...
Strawberry Fields: We put the FUN in dysfunctional.
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Sandra

MaccaByrd
Jun 11 2006, 07:19 PM
Bill
Jun 11 2006, 03:33 PM
I fully understand your point Fiona but we have to remember that there is a second victim in such situations.  And yes, I know that makes it even harder on the rape victim but as we constantly remind ourselves with regard to other issues,
Two wrongs don't make a right.

And to be realistic about it, unless a woman has actually been in the situation of having an unwanted pregnancy, then her view on the issue is just as abstract as any man's.

Speaking as a male who does not want children, I'm just as wary as any woman about  unwanted pregancy. Fortunately for me, I know what causes it, and I know what steps to take to avoid it.

Thanks for your replies, Bill. I have understood them all very well until now, I'm afraid. I think your last two paragraphs were a bit unreasonable. I'm sorry.

I don't believe that any man could be able to speculate the same way a woman could when it comes to things like pregnancy and other 'women's issues.' I mean - do men walk around at night knowing that any man could be a potential rapist? As far as the other stuff... well, we have all the bits! Do you think you know just as well as me what menopause would feel like? :P I think you get the picture.

When a man and a woman are in a serious relationship and there is an unwanted pregnancy - however much anguish the man might feel, I don't believe that it would be as much as the woman would. In fact, that man could flee the country and no one would bat an eyelash. A woman can't flee her pregnancy and if she tried to through an abortion she would face all kinds of problems. When a couple is pregnant, it is the woman who goes through the majority of mental, social, emotional, and all of the physical strain.

I am just a bit surprised at those last couple of comments! You may now retaliate. ;)

Fiona,

I don't think pregnancy is a woman's issue, abortion may be a different matter although preferably it should be a joint issue also.

I kind of understand Bill's point that each pregnancy unless you are experiencing it is an abstract concept. Even an individual who has had more than one pregnancy will have a different experience on each occasion.

My point of view is that pregnancy and abortion should be an individual couple or woman's decision.

Neither is an easy option there are consequences no matter which option individuals choose but fundementally the choice is with the couple or individual woman.

I declare an interest.

I have in a previous life delivered happy healthy babies :D - I've handed babies for adoption to social workers :( I have given advice on family planning and I have assisted with abortions not always an easy thing to do when it did not match my beliefs but it was not my role to judge others.
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beatlechick
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beep
Jun 11 2006, 01:31 PM
Why take the fact that two people couldn't control themselves out on a fetus?

Making abortion OK just makes guilt-free sex that much easier. :( It's more than just a roll in the hay, folks. There's the very real possibility of concieving a life when you have sex. That's why it should be thought through carefully and not just jumped into hap-hazardly, regardless of how good it feels.

And the rape thing is tougher for me, but I lean more towards Bill's thinking on this.

Chad I think that you have oversimplified what we are talking about. We aren't saying that a couple out of control has an abortion just because they don't want that child. What we are talking about is a couple that happen to get pregnant and for whatever circumstances feel it best that they don't have the baby. A person can take any form of birth control they so want to use but don't forget that it isn't a 100% proof. Nothing is except for complete abstinence. I don't necessarily agree with the "guilt-free" sex but having to get pregnant while hormones are raging isn't the best thing either. I'm just glad I live in a state where abortion is legal and nothing the federal gov't can do will overturn it. I'm also glad that in my state if you go through with the pregnancy but decide that you don't want the child you have an option to drop the baby off at any fire station or hospital within a few days of birth without any repercussions.
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youngformyage
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beatlechick
Jun 11 2006, 10:32 PM
if you go through with the pregnancy but decide that you don't want the child you have an option to drop the baby off at any fire station or hospital within a few days of birth without any repercussions.

Off topic a bit I know but in the UK its still a criminal offence to abandon a baby - a law dating back to the 19th century.
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beatlechick
Jun 11 2006, 05:32 PM
beep
Jun 11 2006, 01:31 PM
Why take the fact that two people couldn't control themselves out on a fetus?

Making abortion OK just makes guilt-free sex that much easier. :(  It's more than just a roll in the hay, folks. There's the very real possibility of concieving a life when you have sex. That's why it should be thought through carefully and not just jumped into hap-hazardly, regardless of how good it feels.

And the rape thing is tougher for me, but I lean more towards Bill's thinking on this.

Chad I think that you have oversimplified what we are talking about. We aren't saying that a couple out of control has an abortion just because they don't want that child. What we are talking about is a couple that happen to get pregnant and for whatever circumstances feel it best that they don't have the baby. A person can take any form of birth control they so want to use but don't forget that it isn't a 100% proof. Nothing is except for complete abstinence. I don't necessarily agree with the "guilt-free" sex but having to get pregnant while hormones are raging isn't the best thing either. I'm just glad I live in a state where abortion is legal and nothing the federal gov't can do will overturn it. I'm also glad that in my state if you go through with the pregnancy but decide that you don't want the child you have an option to drop the baby off at any fire station or hospital within a few days of birth without any repercussions.

To all of your replies above:

Sex has consequences and I do not believe in giving an easy out to people who do not take the initiative to either a) Take necessary precautions or b ) are not prepared to accept responsibility for what could possibly become of the act of sex.

If you're not ready for a child, don't fool around , if you do fool around, take precautions. You cannot make me believe that more than 4-5% of those having abortions took the right precautions to prevent pregnancy.

RAINN says that there's only a 5% chace of getting pregnant for "first time without protection" sex partners.

And a "responsible couple" can choose a more permanent measure than OTC or prescription birth control. I did.

And the whole "it's better to have an abortion than an unwanted child" argument is unbelievable to me. A neglected child is still alive.

Really, there's not much more for me to say here, as my stance involves personal experience and deep-seeded beliefs that were different years ago, but now will never sway. I am glad to debate any other topic here, but this one is one I cannot remain level-headed about at times, so I will bow out here.

I started the other "abortion" thread at PM.com, but never once posted in it, and I will refrain from posting here anymore, but I do honestly respect your opinions and beliefs on this subject, however wrong I think they are.
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theonlyfab4fan
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I AM THE BIGGEST JOHN FAN!
Beep I find your post moving, honest and completely level headed. While I know not of what experience you speak I do respect the fact that your view shall not be swayed and I think you have been very gracious in the way you explained yourself. I respectully agree to disagree. I admire your passion and your principles.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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theonlyfab4fan
Jun 12 2006, 12:04 AM
Beep I find your post moving, honest and completely level headed.  While I know not of what experience you speak I do respect the fact that your view shall not be swayed and I think you have been very gracious in the way you explained yourself.  I respectully agree to disagree.  I admire your passion and your principles.

Hear, hear. I can't agree with a lot of your views, Chad, but I can respect them.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Thank you both so much. It really means a lot to me. The respect is reciprocal, of course.
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Sandra

beep
Jun 11 2006, 10:38 PM
beep
Jun 11 2006, 01:31 PM
Why take the fact that

Sex has consequences and I do not believe in giving an easy out to people who do not take the initiative to either a) Take necessary precautions or b ) are not prepared to accept responsibility for what could possibly become of the act of sex.



I too have a lot of sympathy with that view point. I don't accept that people don't understand the consequences of having sex nor do I accept that they don't know how to prevent a pregnancy.

People are better educated in the last forty years than they have ever been yet there are many unwanted pregnancies perhaps more than ever before... so yes individual responsibility is vital but the responsibility of society in general is also an issue.

My response is different depending on which level I'm dealing with the issue.

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wings4ever_vzla
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~LovelyRita~
Jun 11 2006, 04:10 PM
tonyhemp
Jun 11 2006, 06:30 AM

Im glad you have an opinion about this subject, everyone should. You say you are PRO CHOICE, why not say pro death? Doesn't sound as good, does it.

Sorry to tell you but they will overturn roe vs wade, it is coming soon. As for women dying, I am against that as much as I am against abortion. I will say one thing though, if they wind up going down dark alleys to get this illegal (soon to be) procedure done it is their CHOICE. Something you I am sure of support. Thankfully we have morning after pills and they won't have to resort to such an extreme thing like they did in the 50s? It is after all the 21st Century.

By the way I would think throwing away babies was something you would support, free choice and all. Wonder what the ratio is of aborted children filling up the landfills to born children being left in the street? Either way sounds like your style.

Pro Choice is not the same thing as Pro Death. Pro death would signify that if a woman gets pregnant, then she should always get a abortion, in the same way that pro life means; if a woman is pregnant she should never get an abortion. Pro Choice means that women should have the option to go either way.

This option, in my opinion, should contain a very strict set of rules in regards to the age of the fetus, situation of the Mother, and other important factors. Abortion should never be used as a birth control.

As for your comment on having morning after pills, yes, many affluent educated people do, but what about those that have little money and very poor sexual education? Those people will either have the baby and live an even more difficult life or, if abortion is made illegal, resort to back street abortions. There is no way anyone can say with confidence that back street abortions will not happen.

Finally, I find your last comment extremely offensive. Of course no one wants to see a baby who has actually come into the world thrown into a trash can. The whole point of abortion is to prevent an unwanted life from being created, not to kill one that already has been created. We're discussing abortion, not murder. Please keep your topics straight.

And before you say it, no, abortion is not murder. At least I don't believe it is until the fetus has actually developed a capacity to think. Is a comatose human really alive? Maybe they are technically alive, but do they really have any will to live?

I know that personally I would have a lot of trouble going through an abortion myself. In fact, I doubt that I would ever have one. While it is a woman's body, the father should have a definite say in the process as well (provided he's around). Abortion should not be an easy way out, but a very difficult to obtain last resort.

the things is nowdays..ith so much informatio,,if a lady get pregnant and then kill the baby. becasue life begins in the moment the 2 cells get together


ladys should have the choice of getting care before having sex!!!
there arae a lot way to avoid it!!!

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wings4ever_vzla
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my sister was about to do it :blush:
but we talked to her so much
now her daughter..is the queen of the house..she shines our world.....
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JeffLynnesBeard
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wings4ever_vzla
Jun 12 2006, 02:23 AM
hey just changing a litle bit the topic
and as it is a liberal thread what is your opinion about
swingers

would you do it?
what do you think of the diferent kind of relatioship???

Can you start a different thread for that subject, please Pedro? That's going 'off-topic' a little too much! ^_^
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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ok B) Andy
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Sandra
Jun 11 2006, 09:15 PM
Fiona,

I don't think pregnancy is a woman's issue, abortion may be a different matter although preferably it should be a joint issue also.

I kind of understand Bill's point that each pregnancy unless you are experiencing it is an abstract concept. Even an individual who has had more than one pregnancy will have a different experience on each occasion.

My point of view is that pregnancy and abortion should be an individual couple or woman's decision.

Neither is an easy option there are consequences no matter which option individuals choose but fundementally the choice is with the couple or individual woman.

I declare an interest.

I have in a previous life delivered happy healthy babies :D - I've handed babies for adoption to social workers :( I have given advice on family planning and I have assisted with abortions not always an easy thing to do when it did not match my beliefs but it was not my role to judge others.

Well, I think it should be a joint thing and I know that many men are sympathetic and involved and sometimes appear to be going through more distress than the woman! But to say that a man who has never been pregnant can imagine just as well as a woman who has never been pregnant what it is like is a bit silly, in my opinion. I mean, my body does things that a man's does not which hints that I am able to bear a child. I admit that I don't know what it's like to have a penis, so there. :P
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Bill
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MaccaByrd
Jun 12 2006, 05:19 AM
Bill
Jun 11 2006, 03:33 PM
I fully understand your point Fiona but we have to remember that there is a second victim in such situations.  And yes, I know that makes it even harder on the rape victim but as we constantly remind ourselves with regard to other issues,
Two wrongs don't make a right.

And to be realistic about it, unless a woman has actually been in the situation of having an unwanted pregnancy, then her view on the issue is just as abstract as any man's.

Speaking as a male who does not want children, I'm just as wary as any woman about  unwanted pregancy. Fortunately for me, I know what causes it, and I know what steps to take to avoid it.

Thanks for your replies, Bill. I have understood them all very well until now, I'm afraid. I think your last two paragraphs were a bit unreasonable. I'm sorry.

I don't believe that any man could be able to speculate the same way a woman could when it comes to things like pregnancy and other 'women's issues.' I mean - do men walk around at night knowing that any man could be a potential rapist? As far as the other stuff... well, we have all the bits! Do you think you know just as well as me what menopause would feel like? :P I think you get the picture.

When a man and a woman are in a serious relationship and there is an unwanted pregnancy - however much anguish the man might feel, I don't believe that it would be as much as the woman would. In fact, that man could flee the country and no one would bat an eyelash. A woman can't flee her pregnancy and if she tried to through an abortion she would face all kinds of problems. When a couple is pregnant, it is the woman who goes through the majority of mental, social, emotional, and all of the physical strain.

I am just a bit surprised at those last couple of comments! You may now retaliate. ;)

Thank you, I shall. :D

All of your points are perfectly valid except for the fact that you haven't experienced it any more than I have. We're talking about ethical considerations here. And unless a woman has actualyl been in the position of having an unwanted pregnacy, then her presumptions about how it might feel are just that - presumptions.

Obviously, there are aspects of life that some of us will never epxerience because of our gender. I'll never have period pain, you'll never have a kick in the balls. No-one is disputing that. However, I think it's unfair to try and play the card that women have more of an understanding of the situation than men. Unless a woman has actualyl been pregnant, then she really doesn't know much more about it than I do. ;)
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Bill
Jun 11 2006, 03:46 PM
Tony made the valid point about the paradox of being against the death penalty and for abortion. I'll take it one further and ask how it's possible to be a vegetarian and in favour of abortion. If we think it's morally or ethically wrong to kill an animal for human convenience (a position I have no problem with), then how can the same values system see nothing morally or ethically wrong with exstinguishing something that would have become a human being? It just doesn't make sense.

Greta point Bill
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~LovelyRita~
Jun 11 2006, 04:10 PM
Finally, I find your last comment extremely offensive. Of course no one wants to see a baby who has actually come into the world thrown into a trash can. The whole point of abortion is to prevent an unwanted life from being created, not to kill one that already has been created. We're discussing abortion, not murder. Please keep your topics straight.

And before you say it, no, abortion is not murder. At least I don't believe it is until the fetus has actually developed a capacity to think. Is a comatose human really alive? Maybe they are technically alive, but do they really have any will to live?

I know that personally I would have a lot of trouble going through an abortion myself. In fact, I doubt that I would ever have one. While it is a woman's body, the father should have a definite say in the process as well (provided he's around). Abortion should not be an easy way out, but a very difficult to obtain last resort.

Rita, I thank you for taking part in this discussion, your views are appreciated. I am sorry you were offended by the last comment. But to people who are pro-life we are talking murder. Life is life, not something to be thrown away like disposable paper plates. You ask if a comatose human is really alive, I say hell yes they are alive. Who is to say they have no will to live nor may never awake from that coma. Are you advocating we start going through the coma wards and disconnecting their life support or food and water? Of course not, that would not be humane. Neither should abortion.
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Bill
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beep
Jun 12 2006, 08:38 AM

Sex has consequences and I do not believe in giving an easy out to people who do not take the initiative to either a) Take necessary precautions or b ) are not prepared to accept responsibility for what could possibly become of the act of sex.

If you're not ready for a child, don't fool around , if you do fool around, take precautions. You cannot make me believe that more than 4-5% of those having abortions took the right precautions to prevent pregnancy.

RAINN says that there's only a 5% chace of getting pregnant for "first time without protection" sex partners.

And a "responsible couple" can choose a more permanent measure than OTC or prescription birth control. I did.

And the whole "it's better to have an abortion than an unwanted child" argument is unbelievable to me. A neglected child is still alive.....

And that's really all there is to it.

Of course sex has consequences. I don't make the rules. That's just how it is. So you take the risk, or you take precautions. Most of the times when contraceptions fails, it's because it wasn't used properly. Again, it comes back to
E D U C A T I O N !

And yes, do you have any idea how many "unwanted children" are living great lives now? Life may be hard for them, but it is for lots of people. We rise above it.

The same argument is used to justify aborting feotuses who are diagnosed as having some kind of deficiency. That would have killed Stephen Hawking and Beethoven.
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Bill
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Just further to the guilt-free sex thing:

Everything is life has consequences. For every action, there is a reaction.
We laugh at the idiots who want to sue KFC for making them fat because sh*t, who knew that eating junk food makes you fat? We laugh at the dickheads who sue McDonalds because they spilt their coffee in their lap, and how could they have known that coffee was hot?

So it seems to me that that people who want abortions because they didn't know that having unprotected sex could make them pregnant are just as laughable as all the others. The question is whether we want to keep dumbing society down, or whether we want people who can take responsibility for themselves.

If abortion is a legitimate solution to unwanted pregnancy, then logically, free liposuction is the answer for people who make themselves obese on junk food.
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Bill
Jun 12 2006, 07:42 AM
The same argument is used to justify aborting feotuses who are diagnosed as having some kind of deficiency. That would have killed Stephen Hawking and Beethoven.


With all the advances in medicine would it be ok to abort children that you found out was handicapped? Male instead of female or vise versa? What if the child was going to be gay? Left handed? Republican? (last one was a joke)
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Question.

Fiona and I are in a loving, healthy relationship. For the purposes for this thread I'm willing to share one detail of our love life - we use the contraceptive pill as contraception. This particular pill is 99% effective if taken correctly. If Fiona has to take anti-biotics or is sick (both resulting in that contraception being not-as-reliable for seven days), then we use alternative means of contraception as an additional precaution. I'd say we're being responsible - neither of us want a child right now... maybe a long way down the road, but right now wouldn't be good for either of us.

Here's the question. Say Fiona becomes pregnant now despite all of our best efforts to prevent the pregnancy? Unlikely, you say? It's happened to my sister - her third child was conceived against impossible odds. So what should we do about it? Should Fiona give up her dreams of going to college next year, all of her plans to start a career than she wants and would enjoy or should we consider abortion as a very sensible option? I certainly don't want another child right now - I have two from my previous marriage and I would struggle to devote enough time to my two children if I had a third... they're pretty demanding things, children!

Now, is anyone going to stand on their soap box and tell me that Fiona and I should refrain from having a sexual relationship if we don't want children? Because I'm telling you, that isn't going to happen! It's not reasonable, it's not realistic. In our situation, I would be very glad to have the option of abortion open to us. I'm not saying that it would be the outcome of a pregnancy right now, but I'd say that there would be a moderate possibility that we would take that route, but only after copious amounts of discussions and probably plenty of heartbreak and tears. It'd be a nightmare situation and a pregnancy shouldn't be that way - it should be a happy occasion, a proud event which you'd want to share with your friends and invite their congratulations.

There are so many situations people find theirselves in. I agree with Bill to the extent that education is the answer to reduce teenage pregnancy (and STD's), but if abortion is made illegal, you may be 'saving' the unborn life, but you'd be destroying so many lives who are already here. I know that if Fiona had no option but to have a baby now - even after we'd taken all the precautions we could - her life would definitely feel as if it had been destroyed.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Bill
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Is it true that pregnancies can occur against people's best efforts.

But who is saying Fiona would have to give up her dreams? And are those dreams worth taking a life for? Because let's not much about, that's what we're talking about. Would you kill a cat so Fiona could go to college? If you wouldn't take an animal life for food, how can you possibly think of taking a human life for anything?

No-one is suggesting you be celibate, but you have to accept the risks involved. And there are always risks. And if a pregancy occured, that's life. Sorry to sound harsh but that's life. You play the hand you're dealt.

My grandmother's life really was ruined and they were dirt poor to begin with. The alternative (not that there was one in those days) would be that I wouldn't be here to talk about it.

I would ask people to remember that before they ask me to put myself in anyone else's position. :(
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Well, if you weren't here, Bill, you wouldn't know anything about it. Those foetuses aborted are not yet people - I don't consider them human lives. They could develop into human lives, but they're not quite there yet. As I said, I don't feel comfortable with abortions beyond four weeks gone, but for the sake of practicality, I'm willing to support the first trimester limit. Having an abortion is nothing like killing a cat - and I'm surprised that an intelligent guy like you would make such a comparison.

Life, and all it's intricacies, gives us the option of abortion. Now that's life - facing up to the realities of the situations and doing the best thing. In your opinion, the best thing would be to have an unwanted child. In my opinion, I simply do not believe that it would be the best thing and people should have the option of doing what they believe is the best thing without having to suffer people attempting to force their beliefs onto them (something I know you're vehemently against) by banning abortion.

I do not like grapefruit therefore nobody should eat grapefruit. ;)

I am not pro-abortion, I am pro-choice.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Bill
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Sorry Andy, but you're spinning the facts to be something that's convenient to you.
Whether a feotus is sentient life or not is a matter of faith. The inescapable fact of the matter is that if you leave it alone, it becomes a human being. Do you not think that makes it a bit more important? You say that "life" has given us the option of abortion. Curiously enough, that's one of the best arguments for eating meat. But you're veggie. Why? Because you respect life. Well, so do I.

It's all very well for you to be the sensitive new age guy about it, but I thought you would have had a little more tact than to brush the possibility of two generations of my family not existing aside so casually. Are you not glad that your parents had you? Are you not happy that there was a sequence of events set in place that lead to your life? :huh:

I've been asked on this thread to consider lots of other people's situations, so how about all you enlightened folk taking a step back and consider someone elses? How would you like people talking like you should never have been born? :(

I've said far more than I ever intended to, but let me just say that none of the "nightmare" scenarios that anyone has come up with to justify abortion even come close to the hell my grandmother went through. I've seen what human beings can do in the face of adversity far greater than anyone has envisaged on this thread. Stop looking for an easy way out and take some responsibility for yourselves. :no:
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Bill
 
Sorry Andy, but you're spinning the facts to be something that's convenient to you.

No, in a political sense of the word, I am not spinning anything. I think you’ve been debating with Mike for too long, Bill. All I’m giving you is the way I see it - there’s no ‘spin’ involved.

Bill
 
Whether a feotus is sentient life or not is a matter of faith. The inescapable fact of the matter is that if you leave it alone, it becomes a human being. Do you not think  that makes it a bit more important? You say that "life" has given us the option of abortion. Curiously enough, that's one of the best arguments for eating meat. But you're veggie. Why? Because you respect life. Well, so do I.

As far as faith goes, you’re talking to the wrong person - I’m agnostic. Most of my beliefs are based on science and the possibility of the spiritual. If you’re talking about faith and the sanctity of life, then you have to go back to whether using contraception itself is a violation of your faith - you’re a Catholic, right? Shouldn’t we be feeling guilty about the times we’re actively preventing procreation using contraception? After all, if the sperm was allowed to fertilise the egg, then we’d have life! Surely we should be allowing it to happen? Well, of course not. My priorities lie more with the born than the un-born, which is exactly why I don’t eat meat - I respect the lives of the people and animals already here on the planet. I think the people already here deserve the best life they can possibly get. What’s the point in introducing unwanted life to the world whilst ruining an already existing life? It’s a lose-lose situation. I have respect for all life and would much rather see babies born that foetuses aborted, but sometimes it really is the best thing for people to do in their individual cases which no-one can legislate for.

Bill
 
It's all very well for you to be the sensitive new age guy about it, but I thought you would have had a little more tact than to brush the possibility of two generations of my family not existing aside so casually. Are you not glad that your parents had you? Are you not happy that there was a sequence of events set in place that lead to your life?  :huh:

That’s a rather abstract concept. Am I happy my parents had me? Well, there have been times in my life I would have said no, but I believe that I’m one of the fortunate. If my parents hadn’t have had me, then I wouldn’t be here to be considering whether I’m happy or not. It’s a fact - nothing you can do about it… you were conceived, you were born. If you hadn’t have been then you wouldn’t be here now! I’m happy you were born, but if you hadn’t have been born then there’s no way I could have known you to miss you! As for being a ‘sensitive new age guy’… well, no Bill, I’m just being me. I thought you would have known that by now. I’m arguing from the head, you seem to be arguing from the heart - not that that’s a bad thing.

Bill
 
I've been asked on this thread to consider lots of other people's situations, so how about all you enlightened folk taking a step back and consider someone elses? How would you like people talking like you should never have been born?  :(

No-one’s talking like you should never have been born. Truth is, I’m sure your grandmother had a choice even back then. She could have aborted the foetus which became one of your parents with relative ease if she’d have wanted to, regardless of whether it was legal or otherwise. If she hadn’t have wanted that baby badly enough then there are ways women can get rid of their unborn child without going to a clinic. That didn’t happen. What happened, happened. Honestly Bill, what right do you think people have telling women, “Tough luck, you’ve been unlucky, your contraception has failed, you’ve been raped, but that’s life - just get on with it! You must have that baby because it offends my morals if you don’t!” Don’t you hear how cruel and unfeeling that sounds? I wouldn’t presume to tell that person what they should or shouldn’t do in that situation.

Bill
 
I've said far more than I ever intended to, but let me just say that none of the "nightmare" scenarios that anyone has come up with to justify abortion even come close to the hell my grandmother went through. I've seen what human beings can do in the face of adversity far greater than anyone has envisaged on this thread. Stop looking for an easy way out and take some responsibility for yourselves.  :no:

Responsibility comes in many forms. I believe that abortion is in no way an ‘easy way out’. I know many people who have had abortions and the experience has affected them profoundly. None of them have gone into it easily nor without serious thought, but none of them have regretted it in the long run. Felt guilty, yes, but regretted it, no. Also, don’t assume what people here have seen and done. We all have our stories to tell.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Bill
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As far as faith goes, you’re talking to the wrong person - I’m agnostic.

You're missing the point mate. I said "faith" and you're assuming I'm talking about religion.
What you said previously was "Those foetuses aborted are not yet people - I don't consider them human lives." You don't consider them human lives. That's a matter of opinion. A matter of faith. Religion is neither here nor there - you're taking your belief that a feotus is not yet a human and calling it fact because that's the position you've decided to take.

What I'm talking is hard science. A feotus, if left alone, grows into a human being. And no-one on either side of the fence agrees on when one becomes the other. Therefore, the only ethical thing to do is to give it the benefit of the doubt. The same way that vegetarians give animals the benefit of the doubt that they probably don't want to be killed and eaten, despite their inability to tell us so.

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If you’re talking about faith and the sanctity of life, then you have to go back to whether using contraception itself is a violation of your faith - you’re a Catholic, right? Shouldn’t we be feeling guilty about the times we’re actively preventing procreation using contraception? After all, if the sperm was allowed to fertilise the egg, then we’d have life! Surely we should be allowing it to happen? Well, of course not.

I agree.

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My priorities lie more with the born than the un-born, which is exactly why I don’t eat meat - I respect the lives of the people and animals already here on the planet. I think the people already here deserve the best life they can possibly get. What’s the point in introducing unwanted life to the world whilst ruining an already existing life?

None at all. So don't f*cking do it! And if you do do it, then you have to take responsibility for what you've done. The life has already been called into existence.

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It’s a lose-lose situation. I have respect for all life and would much rather see babies born that foetuses aborted, but sometimes it really is the best thing for people to do in their individual cases which no-one can legislate for.

Again, "the best thing" is a matter of faith. Unless you can see into the child's and parents' future, then you don't know what is best. You're working on faith again.
My point is that we should take faith out of the equation entirely, work on what we know to be true and give the benefit of the doubt to what we don't know to be true.

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That’s a rather abstract concept. Am I happy my parents had me? Well, there have been times in my life I would have said no, but I believe that I’m one of the fortunate. If my parents hadn’t have had me, then I wouldn’t be here to be considering whether I’m happy or not. It’s a fact - nothing you can do about it… you were conceived, you were born. If you hadn’t have been then you wouldn’t be here now! I’m happy you were born, but if you hadn’t have been born then there’s no way I could have known you to miss you! As for being a ‘sensitive new age guy’… well, no Bill, I’m just being me. I thought you would have known that by now. I’m arguing from the head, you seem to be arguing from the heart - not that that’s a bad thing.


Of course it's an abstract concept. That's been my point all along. Pretty much everyone here is arguing in the abstract and those who think they have more experience of the possible ramifications actually have less than certain others who get accused of being abstract. ;) You see, on the one hand, you're crystal-gazing and deciding what is best for people when you really have no idea of how things will pan out in the long term, not it shouldn't be a great leap to imagine a different time line where my life never began. I'm sure many people would argue that it would be a good thing. Curiously, you're not one of them. ;)

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No-one’s talking like you should never have been born. Truth is, I’m sure your grandmother had a choice even back then. She could have aborted the foetus which became one of your parents with relative ease if she’d have wanted to, regardless of whether it was legal or otherwise. If she hadn’t have wanted that baby badly enough then there are ways women can get rid of their unborn child without going to a clinic.


Sorry Andy, but you really don't know what you're talking about there. This is the 1930s we're talking about. Small-town attitudes. And people who had more ethics than to resort to something like that. Sure, there was the coathanger option. Is that what you call relative ease? :huh: You really ought to check your history before saying something like that.

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Honestly Bill, what right do you think people have telling women, “Tough luck, you’ve been unlucky, your contraception has failed, you’ve been raped, but that’s life - just get on with it! You must have that baby because it offends my morals if you don’t!” Don’t you hear how cruel and unfeeling that sounds? I wouldn’t presume to tell that person what they should or shouldn’t do in that situation.

Steady on mate, you're the one who just told me my grandmother could have had an abortion if she'd really wanted to (against everything I know to be true). Do you hear how cruel and unfeeling that sounds? I would hope so. And I'm not talking about MY morals. I'm talking facts. A feotus IS life. There's not getting away from that simple fact. Just as there is no getting away from the fact that what's in a hamburger used to walk around. It's a harsh truth that many people find it too easy to ignore.

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Responsibility comes in many forms. I believe that abortion is in no way an ‘easy way out’.

You just said the "B" word! :P I thought we were talking science. ;)

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I know many people who have had abortions and the experience has affected them profoundly.

No argument there.
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None of them have gone into it easily nor without serious thought, but none of them have regretted it in the long run. Felt guilty, yes, but regretted it, no.

Debatable, but hardly the point. There are plenty of meat eaters who don't regret their decision. That's not going to stop you having a moral and ethical objection to that decision is it?
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Also, don’t assume what people here have seen and done. We all have our stories to tell.

Not making any assumptions mate. I've held back from telling my story for an awfully long time and I have plenty of misgivings about telling it now. Mostly, I told it to show people that I do have experience of the situation. And it's an experience that many here don't have. If people want to think about how the other side feels, the other side is in the uterus. Consider that side of the story. ;)
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JeffLynnesBeard
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I'm going to address three points you made and then leave this discussion alone because I believe we've made our positions clear and any further debate is unlikely to either reveal further opinions nor serve the purposes of this thread well.

Firstly, when I said that someone in the 1930's could abort with relative ease, I used the term 'relative ease' about the option of termination, not the procedure itself. There were many ways to get rid of an unwanted child way before the thirties such as drinking copious amounts of gin, getting repeatedly struck in the stomach by someone and, of course, the 'wire coat-hanger' option. None of these are pleasant, but they were all 'options' and people took them. That's what I meant by 'relative ease', not because they're easy methods, but they're widely-known and were widely used. I know what I'm talking about, I just perhaps didn't express myself using the most understandable vocabulary.

Secondly - this whole abortion/vegetarianism argument is interesting... I don't actually believe that it's exactly the same thing but, assuming that it is for a second - wouldn't you have to be a vegetarian yourself to make that argument, otherwise you're just as 'guilty' of disrespecting life as those you're targeting.

Lastly - I'm not deciding what's best for people, I believe that's what anti-abortionists are doing. I'm advocating allowing people to make a decision for themselves which they consider to be the best thing in those particular circumstances. I'm not pro-abortion, I consider it to be something which should only be undertaken after every other option has been discounted and after serious counselling - and certainly not as an alternative to contraception. However, I believe there are certain circumstances in which people believe that not having an unwanted child would be the best decision for them and I support their right to have that choice.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Bill
Jun 12 2006, 07:22 AM
Thank you, I shall.  :D

All of your points are perfectly valid except for the fact that you haven't experienced it any more than I have. We're talking about ethical considerations here. And unless a woman has actualyl been in the position of having an unwanted pregnacy, then her presumptions about how it might feel are just that - presumptions.

Obviously, there are aspects of life that some of us will never epxerience because of our gender. I'll never have period pain, you'll never have a kick in the balls. No-one is disputing that. However, I think it's unfair to try and play the card that women have more of an understanding of the situation than men. Unless a woman has actualyl been pregnant, then she really doesn't know much more about it than I do.  ;)

I respectfully disagree. A woman who has had a child knows a thousand times better than I what pregnancy and birth is like but she probably knows about a thousand and a half times better than a man. Yes, things like the feelings we experience during periods is one indication but there is also an emotional clue known as the 'mothering instinct'.

I feel a bit silly continuously debating this small detail, but you have to remember that it came from my original post that women who are pro-life have a little more authority on the personal side of abortion.

Oh, and just to answer the question you posed to Andy earlier. If, for some unexplainable reason, I would only be able to go to college by killing a cat - I would probably not do it. If, however, I would only be able to go by aborting a cat fetus - then, yes, I probably would. Assuming I had the mother cat's permission, of course. ;)
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Bill I applaud you for stating your ground. I couldn't say it better if I tried.

To those who believe differently you are entitled to your views and I thank you for your willingness to discuss them. Neither side may never change the others but who knows.
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tonyhemp
Jun 12 2006, 07:39 AM
~LovelyRita~
Jun 11 2006, 04:10 PM
Finally, I find your last comment extremely offensive. Of course no one wants to see a baby who has actually come into the world thrown into a trash can. The whole point of abortion is to prevent an unwanted life from being created, not to kill one that already has been created. We're discussing abortion, not murder. Please keep your topics straight.

And before you say it, no, abortion is not murder. At least I don't believe it is until the fetus has actually developed a capacity to think. Is a comatose human really alive? Maybe they are technically alive, but do they really have any will to live?

I know that personally I would have a lot of trouble going through an abortion myself. In fact, I doubt that I would ever have one. While it is a woman's body, the father should have a definite say in the process as well (provided he's around). Abortion should not be an easy way out, but a very difficult to obtain last resort.

Rita, I thank you for taking part in this discussion, your views are appreciated. I am sorry you were offended by the last comment. But to people who are pro-life we are talking murder. Life is life, not something to be thrown away like disposable paper plates. You ask if a comatose human is really alive, I say hell yes they are alive. Who is to say they have no will to live nor may never awake from that coma. Are you advocating we start going through the coma wards and disconnecting their life support or food and water? Of course not, that would not be humane. Neither should abortion.

I'll admit, the comatose part was a bad analogy. I didn't really think that one through.

As for the rest of your argument, I guess that's just an agree to disagree type situation. I don't see a very young fetus as anymore alive than an egg or sperm, you do.
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SherryO
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JeffLynnesBeard
Jun 12 2006, 02:37 PM

Lastly - I'm not deciding what's best for people, I believe that's what anti-abortionists are doing. I'm advocating allowing people to make a decision for themselves which they consider to be the best thing in those particular circumstances. I'm not pro-abortion, I consider it to be something which should only be undertaken after every other option has been discounted and after serious counselling - and certainly not as an alternative to contraception. However, I believe there are certain circumstances in which people believe that not having an unwanted child would be the best decision for them and I support their right to have that choice.

Very well said. I do think that is what most, not all certainly, potential parents are thinking when they consider this option. What is best? What may be best in your eyes, may not be in mine. I would think that too, there is a certain element of selfishness in this decision. Of course, there is. We are, in our heart of hearts, concerned with our fundamental survival, & anything that will effect that in a positive/negative way. Not all people rise above bad life situations, Bill. It can destroy them emotionally, physically, & mentally. In those cases, I believe it is for the best that the child not be born. I agree that getting an abortion should not be the "easy" way out, but it should always be an option that is open.
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Bill
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Not trying to sound harsh or anything, but to the people who say that an unwanted pregnancy would be an intolerable burden I have to say this - do you have any idea how pissweak that sounds? We all have adversities to face. Most of them can't be fixed by surgery. So we deal with it. I never got to go to college either and it wasn't because of a baby. I never did one useful thing before I was 30. God only knows what I might have been able to do through my 20s if I didn't have people holding me back. Now the best years of my life are gone. Wasted. I'll never get them back. Yes, I claim to be a victim of circumstance. But so what? You play the hand you're dealt and get on with life. I'm in my mid 30s and still making up for lost time, but I'm working on it. I can't just go to the doctor and say "fix it." If I could I would. But I can't. So the idea that people deserve a way to get out of taking responsibility for what they've done with their lives just doesn't wash with me.

Andy, your list of "options" that might have been available to terminate the pregnancy are utterly perverse.

I can't yet call myself a vegetarian - more of a recovering carnivore. I'm working on it. I'm on record supporting animal rights so I don't think it's reasonable to say that I have to be a vegetarian to justify my view on abortion. What it gets down to is that I respect life. I want to give life a chance. However, while I respect animal life, I still regard human life as being more important. And any way you look at it, a feotus is human life.
Now Andy, you made to disctinction between the born and the unborn. I concede that point. But I think you ought to concede that you're arguing a technicality. It's still life. And abortion exstinguishes that life. There's no getting away from that fact. So it becomes a question of whether we really respect life, or if we only respect it when it suits our lifestyle to do so.

Anti-abortionists are not deciding what is best for people any more than vegetarians are. We take a moral and ethical stand. If someone finds themselves with an unwanted pregnancy, that probably isn't what's best for them. But by then, it's too late to think about what's best - you just have to deal with the situation. Taking a life is not what I consider to be dealing with it. It's those who would say "better to just get rid of it" who are being patriarchal and trying to say what is best for others.


Lastly, a personal note. This isn't directed at any one person....
I thought long and hard before posting my story. It's an intensely private thing which I have previously shared only with my very closest friends. I could count on one hand the number of people who know about it. I would never have posted it on the Macca board, although I was tempted to several times. But I figured it would be appropriate to mention it here since we're all friends.
I have to say that I expected my story to be treated with a little more respect and sensitivity than it was.
I'll know better next time. :(
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Bill, I'm sorry if you feel like your story hasn't been treated with respect and sensitivity, but it would be impossible to give a pro-choice view, supporting people's right to have an abortion without you feeling like it's a personal affront and for that, I apologise. It must have taken you courage to share that with us - family history, especially that sensitive, is always personal and, as we've repeatedly said, we're glad you're here as a result of such horror and adversity. It does not change my view on allowing people to have that choice and it would not stop me from stating my opinion on the matter here - it's always going to be a sensitive subject.

The primary difference between anti-abortionists and vegetarians that I can see is that (all but a tiny minority of) vegetarians are not actively seeking to make eating meat illegal. Yet many anti-abortionists are actively campaigning to make abortion illegal. There are no countries across the world in which eating meat is illegal and yet there are many countries who have banned abortions and the United States is having a rocky time of it at the moment with the many anti-abortionists lobbying for the criminalisation of abortion in their particular state. Vegetarians are not attempting to take away the choice of eating meat (or not) from people. Anti-abortionists are, however, attempting to take away the choice of having an abortion from people.

I am sorry that you found my list of examples of non-surgical abortion perverse, but they were (and probably still are in places across the world) methods of aborting an unwanted child... and, believe me, that particular gruesome list is not exhaustive. I could give other examples of ways people have aborted unwanted foetuses & embryos over history, but I'll spare you the details as you naturally found the examples I already gave distasteful. My intention was not to 'gross you out', merely to demonstrate that people will find a way regardless of legality or availability of abortion clinics. They're facts - unfortunately - and they play a large part in my decision that legal, clean, sterile, medical abortions are a much better option than something that can hurt, maim and even kill you.

As for the born and the unborn both being life - I suppose I can conceed that I'm arguing a technicality, but it's a pretty damn huge technicality. For example, pain receptors do not begin to appear until the seventh week of pregnancy. The thalamus, the part of the brain which receives signals from the nervous system and then relays them to the cerebral cortex, starts to form in the fifth week. However, other anatomical structures involved in the nociceptic (feeling pain from tissue damage) process are not present until much later in gestation. Links between the thalamus (an area of the brain that helps process information from the senses and transmit it to other parts of the brain) and cerebral cortex aren't forged until around the 23rd week. (Source: Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology. (1997).)

Yes, a foetus/embryo is a life - and it's a life which would probably develop into a human being as we recognise one (it's not a guarantee - many preganancies do not go full-term naturally), but - to me - it's just not the same as a person who has been born, a fully functioning, thinking person. If that's a technicality, then yes, I'm arguing a technicality. As I said, at that stage of it's development, is it any more 'life' than a sperm and an unfertilised egg?

I respect your moral and ethical stand but I respectfully disagree with you. Can you respect my point of view and also agree to disagree? I only rejoined this thread because I believed that you deserved an answer to your points and also to reassure you that I do appreciate you sharing your personal information and to apologise if I have seemed uncaring. I will, however, attempt to bow out gracefully at this point if nothing further truly needs to be addressed.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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Bill
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Thanks Andy. Of course I respect your point of view - it's your reasoning that I disagree with.

There are certain vegetarians who do want to see meat banned. Obviously they're on the lunatic fringe and it's wrong to associate everyone who holds the principles of vegetarianism with the lunatic fringe. That's why I find it a little bit annoying (and I'm not saying you did this) to be associated with the more extremist factions of the anti-abortion crowd just because I happen to share their principles. I've never advocated an outright ban and I wouldn't. An outright ban would mean that a woman couldn't get an abortion even if it would endanger her life to deliver the baby. I've never had a problem with abortions to protect the mother's life. That's self defence. And i don't know of any moral or ethical system that does not allow for taking a life in self defence.

As I mentioned earlier, the backyard abortions you describe come from a time before contraception was easily accessible. Anyone in this day and age who doesn't obtain contraception and learn how to use it properly has only themselves to blame.
Like I've said all along, I am pro-choice. An unwanted pregnancy is the result of NOT availing yourself of the myriad of choices that are already available. Abortion is not pro-choice. It's a get-out-of-jail card for NOT making the right choices.

I think it's obvious that an embryo is more of a life than a sperm or egg. Each carries only half the genetic code. Put the two together and you have human life.

I'm glad you made the point about pain receptors. We all know that there were times when people believed that fish, animals, and even babies couldn't feel pain. The belief was based purely on the fact that they are unable to say, "f*ck off, that hurts." Whether a feotus feels pain is another unknown. Faced with such an unknown, we can assume it doesn't until we find proof that it does. Or we can assume it does until we find proof that it doesn't. I'll opt for the latter option. Give it the benefit of the doubt. Give life a chance. ^_^
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beatlechick
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Bill, I'm sorry too that your life story wasn't given the respect that it should have. I guess we're all to wrapped up in what we wanted to say and your story got lost. Fortunately you seem to have come out okay. Unfortunately the children that I know that weren't wanted didn't.

You know, Bill, that I highly respect you and your opinions no matter what the issue is. I also respect the fact that you told this group about your story and wish I could convey how I feel about it.

And yes, back alley abortions are still performed in places like Mexico, VietNam, Africa, and the Middle East.
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theonlyfab4fan
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Thankfully Bill you had the choice to become a vegetarian. No one told you had to and no one told you mustn`t.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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SherryO
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Bill
Jun 13 2006, 04:24 AM

As I mentioned earlier, the backyard abortions you describe come from a time before contraception was easily accessible. Anyone in this day and age who doesn't obtain contraception and learn how to use it properly has only themselves to blame.
Like I've said all along, I am pro-choice. An unwanted pregnancy is the result of NOT availing yourself of the myriad of choices that are already available. Abortion is not pro-choice. It's a get-out-of-jail card for NOT making the right choices.

I'm sorry, Bill. You're wrong. I was not informed, or educated by either my parents, or my public school education as to when I could, or couldn't get pregnant. I assumed, that there were times when I couldn't. I took the chance, & paid for it. I don't regret, or have any still lingering sense of guilt. Why? Because, not only did I not want the child, period, I didn't wish to carry it. How could I have known then that it would be my only chance at a child? I didn't. So, you may,respectfully, be thankful for your life, & I am thankful for the life I chose. Even if it was the only time, ever, that I could have had a child.
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maccascruff
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I don't think a lot of kids are informed. My mother has yet to tell me how babies are made. She told my sister after her honeymoon, not before. A lot of unwanted pregnancies do come out of ignorance. I truly believe that. I also believe in a woman's right to choose and always will. I don't think a fetus is a baby. I only believe in abortion in the first trimester--not after that.

Bill, I'm glad you are here to tell your story. My parents didn't think I'd ever marry, so they made me take secretarial courses instead of college prep courses. I refused to be a secretary all my life and I managed to put myself through college. No, I didn't do it right out of high school. I spent many years being a secretary and saving money so I could do it. You can still get yourself to college.

I also wanted to say that on my father's side, my grandmother had 12 babies between the ages of 14 and 36. I never got up the courage to ask her how they stopped having babies. I still can't imagine what it was like. One was stillborn, but there were 11 children in a house. My father talks of being fed heated water because there was no food. I know this was before contraception was available, but something happened when my grandmother reached age 36.

My mother's mother had 13 children in 20 years. How did they stop having children? I was only a child when she died and never realized what she had done.

These two women are heroes to me for the way they raised these large families, but I would like to know how they stopped having babies.
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theonlyfab4fan
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Bill, I too respect your opinion and applaud you for sharing your very personal story. That takes a lot of courage and you certainly didn`t owe it to us, so thankyou. One thing you say that strikes me odd is the fact that you keep referring abortion as a get out of jail free card. To me that indicates that you liken parenthood to prison confinement. Perhaps others may feel the same and not only do they not want to be confined to that prison but the children that would be raised by a person with an attitude like that would be better off being raised by someone else or not at all.

My mother didn`t want me and she made sure on a daily basis that I was reminded just how much I ruined her life. To be quite honest with you, even though I have had a good adult life, there have been many times when I wished that she had never had me. It is a painful thing to live with knowing that you were not wanted and no matter what you do in your life or how old you get the only surviving parent you have can`t even bear to look at you nor speak to you.
You say you want to save humanity but it`s people that you just can`t stand
John came to me in a dream and this is what he said. "I had a vision of a man on a flaming pie, and he told me that Betsy with a B not Lisa with a L is the biggest fan of mine". John trumps 'the boss' !

I WAS ROBBED BY THAT DEVIL WOMAN

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SherryO
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maccascruff
Jun 13 2006, 02:24 PM

These two women are heroes to me for the way they raised these large families, but I would like to know how they stopped having babies.

They likely had hysterectomies (spelling?). Another option that I will not choose, or having my tubes tied. I can conceive, I just can't carry. Knowing what I know now, I would still make the same decision. I was young, frightened, unemployed, & couldn't see myself tied to the father for the rest of my life. Bill can call me p*ss-assed weak, but I felt that for myself, the guy, & this entity it was, & still is the best option. I am not MOMMY material. I am not remotely maternal. I like kids, but am relieved when they go home. I lack the patience, & now know that I would end up bitter, & angry for the life that could have been, if my choice had been different. My father felt trapped in a life he didn't want, but was forced to accept by my mother being pregnant. We, his children, suffered because he hated us for making him be something he didn't want to be. A father. He took his pain out on us. We didn't ask to be born. Why would I make history repeat itself? I wouldn't have made the "best" of it. So, don't hand me that crap, either. Respectfully.
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
I know my father's mother did not have a hysterectomy at 36. She had one in her 60's. I can remember when she had the surgery. So, I don't know what they did to stop having all those babies. She was having one a year.
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SherryO
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maccascruff
Jun 13 2006, 02:38 PM
I know my father's mother did not have a hysterectomy at 36. She had one in her 60's. I can remember when she had the surgery. So, I don't know what they did to stop having all those babies. She was having one a year.

Then, I have no idea. Sorry, I just figured it was the most likely cause.
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maccascruff
Sing the Changes
I don't know either and she has passed away, so I can't ask her. My father is 82, but I'm sure he wouldn't know.
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SherryO
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theonlyfab4fan
Jun 13 2006, 02:32 PM

My mother didn`t want me and she made sure on a daily basis that I was reminded just how much I ruined her life. To be quite honest with you, even though I have had a good adult life, there have been many times when I wished that she had never had me. It is a painful thing to live with knowing that you were not wanted and no matter what you do in your life or how old you get the only surviving parent you have can`t even bear to look at you nor speak to you.

I understand that pain. That is why I made my decision. I didn't want to end up doing that. It's all well, & fine to tell people to get on with their lives, but respectfully, Bill, until you've walked a mile in my shoes,don't judge, or "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". I am not proud of it, but it was a long time ago. I have moved on with my life, & I'm not going to spend the rest of it wondering about the "what ifs'",or justifying it to others. I did what I thought was best, & you may question my reasons until the cows come home. I'm thankful that I had the option, & I don't think anyone should say whether or not I have the right. This is my life, & I will live it, make mistakes, make bad decisions, & I'll learn, & maybe become a better person for it.
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Bill
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SherryO
Jun 14 2006, 12:13 AM
Bill
Jun 13 2006, 04:24 AM

As I mentioned earlier, the backyard abortions you describe come from a time before contraception was easily accessible. Anyone in this day and age who doesn't obtain contraception and learn how to use it properly has only themselves to blame.
Like I've said all along, I am pro-choice. An unwanted pregnancy is the result of NOT availing yourself of the myriad of choices that are already available. Abortion is not pro-choice. It's a get-out-of-jail card for NOT making the right choices.

I'm sorry, Bill. You're wrong. I was not informed, or educated by either my parents, or my public school education as to when I could, or couldn't get pregnant. I assumed, that there were times when I couldn't. I took the chance, & paid for it. I don't regret, or have any still lingering sense of guilt. Why? Because, not only did I not want the child, period, I didn't wish to carry it. How could I have known then that it would be my only chance at a child? I didn't. So, you may,respectfully, be thankful for your life, & I am thankful for the life I chose. Even if it was the only time, ever, that I could have had a child.

Clearly Sherry, your issues are with your parents and with your education system, not those who have an ethical objection to abortion.

I won't ask for details, but it boggles the mind that people can not know how pregnancy happens.
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Bill
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theonlyfab4fan
Jun 14 2006, 12:32 AM
Bill, I too respect your opinion and applaud you for sharing your very personal story. That takes a lot of courage and you certainly didn`t owe it to us, so thankyou. One thing you say that strikes me odd is the fact that you keep referring abortion as a get out of jail free card. To me that indicates that you liken parenthood to prison confinement. Perhaps others may feel the same and not only do they not want to be confined to that prison but the children that would be raised by a person with an attitude like that would be better off being raised by someone else or not at all.

My mother didn`t want me and she made sure on a daily basis that I was reminded just how much I ruined her life. To be quite honest with you, even though I have had a good adult life, there have been many times when I wished that she had never had me. It is a painful thing to live with knowing that you were not wanted and no matter what you do in your life or how old you get the only surviving parent you have can`t even bear to look at you nor speak to you.

It's just an expression. Clearly the baby is not wanted, for whatever reason.

And I can certainly empathise with your situation. But is life really so bad that you'd rather you didn't have it? And equally, I think we're all been through phases where we wished we hadn't been born.

Your mother's problem is that she doesn't understand that whatever happened in her life was her own doing. You didn't do anything to her.
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Bill
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SherryO
Jun 14 2006, 12:36 AM
maccascruff
Jun 13 2006, 02:24 PM

These two women are heroes to me for the way they raised these large families, but I would like to know how they stopped having babies.

They likely had hysterectomies (spelling?). Another option that I will not choose, or having my tubes tied. I can conceive, I just can't carry. Knowing what I know now, I would still make the same decision. I was young, frightened, unemployed, & couldn't see myself tied to the father for the rest of my life. Bill can call me p*ss-assed weak, but I felt that for myself, the guy, & this entity it was, & still is the best option. I am not MOMMY material. I am not remotely maternal. I like kids, but am relieved when they go home. I lack the patience, & now know that I would end up bitter, & angry for the life that could have been, if my choice had been different. My father felt trapped in a life he didn't want, but was forced to accept by my mother being pregnant. We, his children, suffered because he hated us for making him be something he didn't want to be. A father. He took his pain out on us. We didn't ask to be born. Why would I make history repeat itself? I wouldn't have made the "best" of it. So, don't hand me that crap, either. Respectfully.

I'm not calling you pissweak Sherry. But respectfully, knowing what you know now, you probably wouldn't have made the same mistake in the first place. Am I right? ;)

As for walking a mile, I made it clear very early in the piece that I don't judge people who have had to make that decision and it doesn't change how I view them. However, that's not going to stop me feeling the way I feel about the issue of abortion. How can it?

I'm not being prescriptive here, but if I were in your position, I would be most p*ssed off with your parents for not teaching you how to avoid making the same mistakes they did. Some parents like to get back at their kids by not teaching them. :(

Thank you for sharing your experience. I assure you, there's no disrespect. :)
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theonlyfab4fan
Jun 13 2006, 02:32 PM
Bill, I too respect your opinion and applaud you for sharing your very personal story. That takes a lot of courage and you certainly didn`t owe it to us, so thankyou. One thing you say that strikes me odd is the fact that you keep referring abortion as a get out of jail free card. To me that indicates that you liken parenthood to prison confinement. Perhaps others may feel the same and not only do they not want to be confined to that prison but the children that would be raised by a person with an attitude like that would be better off being raised by someone else or not at all.

My mother didn`t want me and she made sure on a daily basis that I was reminded just how much I ruined her life. To be quite honest with you, even though I have had a good adult life, there have been many times when I wished that she had never had me. It is a painful thing to live with knowing that you were not wanted and no matter what you do in your life or how old you get the only surviving parent you have can`t even bear to look at you nor speak to you.

Your mother had a problem, it wasn't you, it was herself. I am sorry she took it out on you but am greatful that you are here alive instead of having been aborted all those years ago. We all have problems either growing up or in adulthood. We manage to adapt or fix them. Some counseling may do you good.
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SherryO
Jun 13 2006, 02:36 PM
maccascruff
Jun 13 2006, 02:24 PM

These two women are heroes to me for the way they raised these large families, but I would like to know how they stopped having babies.

They likely had hysterectomies (spelling?). Another option that I will not choose, or having my tubes tied. I can conceive, I just can't carry. Knowing what I know now, I would still make the same decision. I was young, frightened, unemployed, & couldn't see myself tied to the father for the rest of my life. Bill can call me p*ss-assed weak, but I felt that for myself, the guy, & this entity it was, & still is the best option. I am not MOMMY material. I am not remotely maternal. I like kids, but am relieved when they go home. I lack the patience, & now know that I would end up bitter, & angry for the life that could have been, if my choice had been different. My father felt trapped in a life he didn't want, but was forced to accept by my mother being pregnant. We, his children, suffered because he hated us for making him be something he didn't want to be. A father. He took his pain out on us. We didn't ask to be born. Why would I make history repeat itself? I wouldn't have made the "best" of it. So, don't hand me that crap, either. Respectfully.

I am sorry you have such a low opinion of yourself but I do think you would have made the best of it. People don't always repeat their parents mistakes.

My mother had a hell of a childhood, her father beat her constantly, raped her more then once, and in the end murdered her mother (and got away with it). My mom ran away from home and eventually got pregnant. As my dad says abortion was never a thought with her. He did the honorable thing and eventually married her. Her life was hell but she made sure my sister and I had a good life. She never even hit us as she felt that would be validating her upbringing. She eventually divorced my dad and made a life for herself and her children. People do overcome adversity.
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mozart8mytoe
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Every sperm is sacred.

Menstruation is murder.

I do not believe that Roe v Wade will be overturned any time soon. Various cases will reach the Supreme Court, as they have for the past 30 years, and decisions will be made on one side or the other. Even if it were rescinded, that would not automatically make abortion illegal. That would simply allow the states to legislate the issue freely. Some states would prohibit it while others would sanction the procedure.

The battle will rage on no matter what the Supreme Court does.

I am possibly one of the few people I know who has no strong opinion on this very divisive subject. I have read plenty of literature/propaganda from both sides. I have spoken to people who feel very strongly on both sides. I can agree with some of the arguments, but I always find others truly ludicrous.

What I do know is that I am very uncomfortable with politicians dictating which kind of medical procedures should be available to me. If all the doctors say it is a bad procedure then I am more likely to go along. Candidates looking for votes probably do not have my best interests in mind.

I am also uncomfortable with killing. More so than with the politicians. Does life begin at conception, somewhere during gestation, birth, 40? How would I know. A fetus does not have a fully developed brain. True, but then neither does an infant. Killing an infant is murder. Not many people would argue with that. Besides, I have met plenty of 40 year olds who do not have a fully developed brain.

For a brief period in high school I thought I was pregnant. My first reactions had nothing to do with babies or doctors or elected officials. I was too busy tearing all of the hair out of my head. At the time I was vehemently anti-abortion. But I did consider it as an option because, legally, it was. Then as now I would have told anyone that adoption is a better option, but could I have gone through nine months of high school while pregnant? I know others have, but I am not them. Odds are I would have dropped out. This would have been a catastrophic career move.

I told my sister I might be pregnant. As a bleeding heart liberal and a rabid Catholic, she was no help. I told some friends. Some advised abortion. Some advised adoption. One even thought I should keep it. The only thing worse I can imagine than killing a baby is having me as a mother.

I never told my father. He still does not know. Don’t anybody tell him, ok?

By the sweet sacred grace of Buddha, Muhammad, Jesus, Krishna, Artemis, L Ron Hubbard, whatever, some blood and tissue shot out of me and I learned I was not pregnant. I was more relieved than a trucker finding a pit stop after downing a six pack.

Did I learn my lesson and stop having sex? Yeah, right. Was I lacking in reproductive education? Not at all. My school told us plenty. Did I at least use contraception more? Who says I never did before.

The one thing that did change from this experience was my stubborn belief that my political view was the right one. I think that was the problem. It was a view based on politics, not humanity. Since then I now see that this is not merely a political issue. In fact, it should not be political at all. Saying something is right or wrong to win an election does not make it right or wrong. Believing that something is right or wrong because of your religions convictions does not make it right or wrong for people with other religions views.

So who is right and who is wrong? I do not know. But I do know that no matter how fervently someone feels about this, they do not have the answers any more than those who feel equally impassioned on the opposite side.
Nurse, I spy gypsies. Run.
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JeffLynnesBeard
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Great post, Moz and thanks for sharing your personal experience.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
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