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| Obama; what do you think of him? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 25 2009, 11:45 PM (923 Views) | |
| 1337 Sk1llzz | Mar 22 2009, 07:42 PM Post #41 |
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I was trying to say, people let religion influence their choices and government too much. The U.S. was founded on seperation of church and state. People should vote based on their morals, ethics, and ideas, not based on what their religion tells them to do. |
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| Danielle | Mar 22 2009, 08:08 PM Post #42 |
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~: When it ends :~
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Agreed |
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| Jack Sam1 | Mar 22 2009, 09:31 PM Post #43 |
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DIY's Master Runecrafter. 96/99. DIY Editor
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This is where the argument gets jaded. Ask yourself this: What is more important: The Mother or the Child? For me, it is the mother. However, whilst I am pro-choice, I do not condone abortion as a form of contraception. If you have 2-3 abortions a year, that's when it get's ridiculous. |
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| Eddie | Mar 23 2009, 12:08 AM Post #44 |
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Paranormal DIY'er
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And why can't they be equal? |
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| Yowming41 | Mar 23 2009, 01:35 AM Post #45 |
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Well, I'm glad I disagreed with the common views so this hot debate was sparked! :O First of all, to 1337. I may be jumping to conclusions here, but you seem to have a really low opinion on Christianity. But that aside, you missed my main point. Yes, I am a Christian, and I do believe that the morals and ideals of Christianity would make for a better country if properly followed (obviously not everyone is perfect and it's easy to meet someone who is not the greatest example of their religion.) However, I'm not saying that a leader NEEDS to be a Christian to be a great leader. It's more to the point of, is Obama telling the truth. After all, if you don't care about his not being Christian, you have to realize that it makes him a liar, since he said he is, and lieing is not something I like in a leader of a country. But if you don't think he's a liar, then you must think he's a Christian, which would be bad for the country, right? Also, Leet, you said that people should vote based on "morals and ethics". Hmm. And where would those come from? You can't just be totally unbiased, have opinions not formulated by ANYTHING, word of mouth or parental guidance or religious instruction or something. Your worldview came from somewhere, and a lot of your worldview is formed by whatever religion you are. For example, if you're a Christian, you believe in morals and believe it's a sin to lie, steal, kill and so forth. If you're an atheist, you don't have morals set down by any religion or deity, you have whatever it is society, your parents, etc. tells you and what you decide for yourself. My point is, your opinions and your votes are going to be influenced by that kind of stuff, you cannot just leave your morals and worldview out of who you think will do the best for the country. As for all the abortion stuff, well, there's going to be endless debate on here about it. I know many of you will groan when I type this, but yes, I'm a Christian and believe abortion is wrong. Call me insensitive to the mother, I do not approve of murdering children. Obviously, there are some very 'hot-spot' type areas, like progressing from the 'just don't want a kid/can't be bothered to be careful' to things like rape, mother's life endangered, and such. There's a video I've watched that is a pretty good argument about abortion in general as well as some of those touchy issues. It's from a pro-life person, and yes, she is 12 years old, but I learned a few things from it and I think most of you can too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOR1wUqvJS4 I think that's most of the issues answered, feel free to ask more questions. |
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| Yowming41 | Apr 13 2009, 02:26 AM Post #46 |
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Umm, no one has replied to my semi-long post so I'm bumping it up :) |
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| Eddie | Apr 13 2009, 02:52 AM Post #47 |
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Because I agree with it Yow :P |
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| 1337 Sk1llzz | Apr 13 2009, 06:21 AM Post #48 |
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Well, Yow, I don't have anything against the Christian religion, mainly ideas that most Christians and conservatives share. For examples, "stop abortion and the slaughter of babies", and then "I support the penalty. But I am not saying all Christians are conservatives, because that's untrue. I guess I kinda of group them into the same category sometimes. I hope that answers your first question. Second, if Obama turned out not to be a Christian, I wouldn't care. If he came out during the campaign and said that, people would immediately accuse him of other untrue things. People (read: Fox News) claim he is a "secret" Muslim. Why would that be a problem? I read somewhere 70% of Muslims want to help stop terrorism, the other 30% are extremists or just don't like the U.S. This is another thing people tend to do that really bothers me, stereotype. Muslim doesn't equal terrorist. Finally, Religion sets most peoples morals, including mine seeing as I consider myself a Deist (google it). What I meant is that if you're in the voting booth, you shouldn't be saying "Obama may be a Muslim, so I won't vote for him." You should be saying, "I don't agree with Obama's economic or environment plans, so I won't vote for him." I won't get in to abortion. |
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| Blackt3ars | Apr 13 2009, 03:46 PM Post #49 |
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Confession and Gfx guardian
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Yow, very nice post :P . No one should base their opinion about their leader on what religion he believes in (unless it's the pope). However, if he were to say he was Christian, just to appeal to the American people, that I think you should take into consideration when creating an opinion. Though that does not immediately make him 'evil'. I know there are a lot of people who lie about their religious views to please the masses, and some of these people did good things for the people. But since I oppose lieing (even though I do it sometimes too), it would probably change my opinion negatively. And on the abortion thing (always a hot topic), did you know that in the '70s the crime rate dropped significantly. They discovered that this was due to the approval of abortion. Because women were allowed to have abortions, both father and mother could continue their education, causing less of them to resort to crime to make a living. Btw, for those that don't know, I'm pro-choice. As long as it's still inside the woman's body, it's hers to do with it whatever she wants. And those sperm cells? Hell, each man makes tons of them every day, so I don't mind losing those 40 thousand something. They'd die anyway. |
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| Hunter | Apr 13 2009, 06:34 PM Post #50 |
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Everything Went Numb
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Ugh... I could go on and on about how much I can't stand Obama.... I'd rather somebody pick a topic and I'd elaborate off of that. =) |
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| Yowming41 | Apr 14 2009, 01:24 AM Post #51 |
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First of all, thanks to all of you for being polite and such. Thoughtful posts too. Leet, what do you mean "I support the penalty"? Are you referring to the death penalty, i.e. no death for babies but yes death for criminals? If so, I agree with both of those because the babies haven't even done anything ( except annoy their mother-to-be, I guess). A criminal did something bad, he ought to be punished. Now, the idea of actual death for the criminal I'm not sure about...as a matter of innocent->no punishment criminal-> punishment, I can agree, but I am not sure if the death penalty is the right thing to do. But I hope I've explained the difference in killing babies and killing criminals. For Black and Leet, yes, it isn't so much the matter of Obama being Muslim or whatever he may be in reality, it's the fact that it's different (possibly) then what he said he is. That's a lie, plain and simple. I don't like lies in a presidential candidate. Do I tell them? Could he do good things even if he lied, or even if he admitted that he wasn't a Christian? Certainly. Christians don't have a monopoly on good things. But I just can't agree with Obama lieing to get people to vote for him. You may say "Ok, whatever, so he's not a Christian. So what?" But what if it was a situation like him lieing about taxes, the environment, abortion or another 'hot topic'? If he radically changed from what he said he would do to what he actually would do, that's a problem. And being a Christian means you do have different morals and values ect. than if you weren't, which would affect Obama's, or anyone's, decisions. I'm not sure if that helped, just my opinion. Also, Black, interesting fact there. Although, I think you'll agree that crime rate dropping may not be just attributed to one thing, although a significant and quick drop at the time of a change in opinion, ideas or actions of the population could definitly be from that one idea. The problem with abortion debating is that there's so many circumstances. It's not hard to say it's killing, but it's a little murkier when you're looking at a woman who was raped, or a high school couple who might have to drop out and have ruined(ish) lives because of the baby. I kinda support adoption, it's obviously not just that simple as "Here ya go, I don't have the time", but the basicness is letting others who can/want to take care of a baby take care of yours, who you don't want/can't take care of. Still, there's always the moral issue even amongst all the "What if"s. I have to say, I think abortion is murder pretty much all the time. Yes, for those who wonder, that includes rape and such. YES, before you tell me, I KNOW that those can be horrible things, I know they affect women's lives significantly, I know that the woman may have had a 'better' life if she just aborted the child. I know those things. But the child, I think, is still a child, still an innocent who was killed. As the girl in the video I posted sometime earlier (I think it was in the abortion debate) said, we have responsibilities, but rights come with those responsibilities, and we can't take away someone else's rights because we don't want to fulfill our own responsibilities. Well, it kind of makes sense, I think. Huh, I haven't mentioned Obama all that much for this being a debate about him :p But abortion came into context (why does abortion invade every debate we have? Lol.) Ah yes, and Hunter, let me think of some topics...uh...Eligibility issue, abortion (it's a little overcooked by now so maybe pick another, although we never seem to stop talking about it :P), the environment (say, offshore drilling, global warming), immigration (illegal and legal), foreign policies, public education, service (things like being drafted to the army, I don't think we do that now but there are things like that being discussed, also the civilian national force Obama has mentioned to be 'as well funded as the military' for 18-25 year olds or so)...uhh.....what have I missed? Racism maybe? Though that's not a thing you can say "If you elect me, I'll stop racism"... Wow. Long post. Put away the reading glasses, you're done. But don't you dare forget to reply! |
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| 1337 Sk1llzz | Apr 14 2009, 02:43 AM Post #52 |
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What I mean is, Christians conservatives seem hypocritical when they say killing others is wrong, but then they support the death penalty. They don't believe in revenge, but in punishment by God. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" seem familiar? This applies to both parties, not just criminals. I personally don't believe in the death penalty. "An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind" |
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| Blackt3ars | Apr 14 2009, 12:42 PM Post #53 |
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So, recently Obama removed several restrictions from the whole thing with Cuba (read it here) What do you guys think of that? In my eyes it's a good thing, since in a certain way it feels like the US tries to dominate Cuba (though I'm not completely familiar with the history behind it). |
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| Yowming41 | Apr 14 2009, 08:48 PM Post #54 |
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Uhhh...well, the thing is, the people who are punished are being, well, being punished. They did something wrong, they are being punished for it. They 'deserve' that death penalty. Killing other people is wrong when they don't do anything to deserve it. I know I just said that, but it seems like the answer to your question. And like I said already, I'm not sure about the 'rightness' of the penalty, I don't know if it is wrong and am not sure if it is biblical (something that's important for me but not for some). I guess maybe we should have a debate thread on that. |
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| James | Apr 19 2009, 08:09 PM Post #55 |
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Im pretty sure i've posted here before, but I can't find my post... So i'll post again :). I don't mind him, as long he's a good president im fine. Although I really won't praise him just because he's black, as I wouldn't praise someone for being white asian or otherwise. |
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| Yowming41 | May 16 2009, 02:04 PM Post #56 |
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Jim, what do you mean to 'praise him because he's black'? You mean, because he's black he's automatically better somehow, or you support black leaders, or...? |
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| James | May 16 2009, 02:49 PM Post #57 |
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Yow, im not trying to be racist and I do believe that everyone is equal etc. But the fact is he's just the same as any other president and I feal he is gaining much more praise than he deserves. (Not saying he's a bad guy of course.) |
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| 1337 Sk1llzz | May 17 2009, 08:14 PM Post #58 |
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Yow, what I'm getting at is, most conservatives are Christians, and most church-every-Sunday Christians are conservatives. Christians preach the fact that they and their God are all-merciful and all-forgiving. Yet, they support the death penalty. I find that incredibly hypocritical. |
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| Yowming41 | May 18 2009, 07:48 PM Post #59 |
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Jim, thanks for the update. I think it makes sense to judge someone more on what they do then how nice it is that an African American got the presidency. Good point. L337, you say that Christians say that their God is all-merciful and forgiving. But Christians also say that sinners deserve to, and will, go to Hell. Death's got nothing on that. It's a lot worse, and it doesn't stop. The Christian message is meant to give people the chance to avoid Hell and go to Heaven (If you really want me to explain it all ask for a pm). What I mean to say is that Christians say that their message is one of forgiveness, and it is, but that doesn't mean no-one's sins will go unpunished. The Christian God is a just God and he intends to extract justice for every sin. What Christians believe is that he gave us a way to avoid that. I hope I've explained it well enough. |
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| Dark Kirby 0 | Aug 18 2009, 06:18 PM Post #60 |
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Same shit, different asshole. |
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