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Atheism
Topic Started: Feb 6 2008, 09:46 PM (3,219 Views)
Mr Master52
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It's obviously impossible to convince any of you guys; but seriously Eirik, I'm in no way poor and 80% of my friends are atheists, my brother...idk and I don't WANT to go to the church we attend to, but I HAVE to. I have my own view of God, Allah, or whatever you call him in different languages, and my point of view embodies science, technology and all that.
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James
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Eirik
Jan 18 2010, 09:48 AM
I cannot stand the fact that you try to force your beliefs onto others. That has always been and always will be, the biggest flaw with Christianity.
Couldn't agree more. Nothing worse than someone who not only doesn't try to see an alternative view, but try to make you believe the same as they do. Not just in religion, either. Music, games, fashion - all of these things bring out the worst in some people.
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Eddie
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Wait, so you don't like going to church? Then why do you go??? Oh, that's right, cause if you don't, you go to hell. That's the thing with religion. Be controlled or you are going to HELL. Don't you see a problem with this theory mate? There are many, many, other religions, and nearly all have similar concepts. It's the only way they work. If there were no consequences, no one would go to church. Christianity wouldn't even exist today if a hell didn't exist.

Believe it or not mate, at one point, I was very religious. I even argued on a forum from your point of few. Then I got older and realized that this makes no sense.

How about this: if God is truly a loving god, why isn't everyone born aware of his awesomeness? Someone born on a deserted island will have NO knowledge of god or the morals of society, and thus will go to hell according to Christians. The theory is just too problematic. There are so many ways religion has crushed our society (stem cell research, slavery, LGBT rights, dark ages) that honestly make me sick thinking it.

Here's a thought: what if someone published a book today that said a prisoner executed 300 years ago had magical powers and was the savior? Most people would regard it as a fairy tale and nothing more. That's what people should do with the bible. The Odyssey by Homer is older than the bible, but in many ways, is just as illegitimate. To be honest, I bet if every single Christian had to read and understand every last word in the bible, people might see half the crap the church shields and will never talk about and drop their faith. I've never heard a sermon in my church going years on how the bible says we should care for our slaves...oh...wait.

Outside of fear, people want a crutch. They want to know that when grandma, mommy, or their little sister dies that they're having fun chilling out in heaven. They want to believe that on their death bed, the story is just beginning rather than ending. But that blame is misplaced. Using your Christianity, God took away your loved one, so why would you love him? Why wouldn't he take you both at the same time? It's frankly ridiculous. If time spent in church for lost loved ones was directed toward appropriate causes (i.e. modern medicine, criminal justice technology, etc), the world would be so much better. What disturbs me the most is that I have personally met a woman who lost her husband to ALS (basically a disease that slowly cripples the body; it kills, no effective treatments) and she deathly opposes steam cell research. This research could have saved her husband's life, but since fetuses that were going to be tossed anyway are being used, it's wrong. Seriously.

People can't handle that life ends at a point. Death is scary, and religion only sugar coats it. Sorry, but everything dies. One day, this universe and everything in it will be gone. The earth at one point will be scolded by the sun. Forever does not exist. The best way to look at it though is if death is so scary, wouldn't knowing you are going to live forever be even more terrifying? Think about it. At one point, you are going to do everything possible. What's after this? It would be eternal hell. It needs to end somewhere.

BLEH. I blame too many things on religion, but the world would be so much better off without it in my opinion. Maybe if people knew that death was going to happen, they would donate their 10% to cancer research or their nearest hospital instead of church so maybe they could live to 150 instead of 80.
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Mr Master52
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I despise the wave that's rushing through the world nowadays, atheists have, for no reason, started attacking religions, especially christianity, when, without christianity, our morale would be completely different for the worse, people would be extremely violent to each other, have no respect for each other, because all that was taught in the Bible. You can't prove I'm wrong and I can't prove I'm right, and the Crusades would be just a minor problem compared to the nuclear holocaust that would have happened 200 years ago if there "wasn't any church".
My religion teacher said that religion is one side of the coin of humanity, maybe some consider it the downside, but eradicating it would be idiotic.
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Nick
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Mr Master52
Mar 11 2010, 08:37 PM
I despise the wave that's rushing through the world nowadays, atheists have, for no reason, started attacking religions, especially christianity, when, without christianity, our morale would be completely different for the worse, people would be extremely violent to each other, have no respect for each other, because all that was taught in the Bible. You can't prove I'm wrong and I can't prove I'm right, and the Crusades would be just a minor problem compared to the nuclear holocaust that would have happened 200 years ago if there "wasn't any church".
My religion teacher said that religion is one side of the coin of humanity, maybe some consider it the downside, but eradicating it would be idiotic.
Reading through this... I read:
"Crusades would be just a minor problem compared to the nuclear holocaust that would have happened 200 years ago if there "wasn't any church". "

Wait a sec... We could have had a NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST 200 years ago?
1st actual NUKE: 1957, the Fat Man.
And I believe the A-Bomb was created early 1900s.

How could we have had a nuclear holocaust without the actual nuclear weaponry to do so?




Another random point:
Humans are always concerned about self-preservation, no matter whom. They will not be 100% selfless, as Jesus supposedly was. Humans still have the old primal instinct, which is also tied in with adrenaline, which has probably kept millions going.

Humans are also usually believing that they're always correct. What happens when two sides disagree? Fight.

Examples of such are:
The Crucifixion.
Hundred Year's War.
WWI
WWII
Korean War
Vietnam War
Cold War
Etc.. Etc...


Notice that most, if not all, fights are about oppression and becoming the alpha male(or country as the case may be).

I also agree with Eddie's last post. People need a crutch. Religion is that post.


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Eddie
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Mr Master52
Mar 11 2010, 08:37 PM
I despise the wave that's rushing through the world nowadays, atheists have, for no reason, started attacking religions, especially christianity, when, without christianity, our morale would be completely different for the worse, people would be extremely violent to each other, have no respect for each other, because all that was taught in the Bible. You can't prove I'm wrong and I can't prove I'm right, and the Crusades would be just a minor problem compared to the nuclear holocaust that would have happened 200 years ago if there "wasn't any church".
My religion teacher said that religion is one side of the coin of humanity, maybe some consider it the downside, but eradicating it would be idiotic.
Thanks for your support Nick. I agree.

@Master

We aren't attacking every religion. If you want to practice Christianity, realizing that the church is separate from the state and would be tolerant of conflicting lifestyles (other religions, nontraditional/unmarried families, homosexuality), no one would have the problem. Atheists find it insanely annoying that Christians think their novel is law, and anything that opposes it must be hearsay.

You've made a lot of bold statements there, but I can prove that there is a correlation between religion and theft, poverty, murder, IQ, and generosity. Generally, the more religious and area becomes, the worse these scores will be. This is illustrated through the table below. Please feel free to verify with the sources if you do not believe me (or whoever authored the table).

Posted Image

Additionally, I disagree with your statement that religion maintains order. I do not know your age, but hopefully at one point you will study world history. The Catholic church kept literacy rates down, only taught clergy to read the bible, and generally abused their power. Without the church laying such a violent political precedent, the world could have actually been better "if there wasn't any church."
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Eirik
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HAHAHA^5

Atheists attack religions "for no reason"? David, have you heard about the Dark Ages. Did you know what your kind did you those who chose not to believe in words written in a book? They burnt them, they beheaded them and they ripped out their guts and hang them out in the streets. So now you're saying that we are ATTACKING you? LOL
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Saj_61
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I suppose without christianity we wouldnt have all those funny offensive jokes about them. Kinda Stumped on thinking of other good points about it.

Also nice table eddie. Gotta love how the general trend shows more religious areas being worse than the less religious areas.
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Eddie
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Eirik
Mar 12 2010, 06:55 AM
HAHAHA^5

Atheists attack religions "for no reason"? David, have you heard about the Dark Ages. Did you know what your kind did you those who chose not to believe in words written in a book? They burnt them, they beheaded them and they ripped out their guts and hang them out in the streets. So now you're saying that we are ATTACKING you? LOL
It's also worth noting that the church killed literacy. At the time, only the clergy was educated. They could read and write in Latin. Linguistically speaking, because of the church, there was no language at the time. Everything was vernacular (spoken).
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Eddie
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If God is real, why does he let priests rape little boys (click here for a CNN article)? 140 cases that the church was covering up just came out.
Edited by Eddie, Mar 17 2010, 10:44 PM.
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Eirik
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It seems that this thread has turned into a debate about Christianity, instead of Atheism, but I don't mind.

I must say that I have now lost all my trust and belief when it comes to the Catholic Church. I never believed in god, but I used to believe that Christianity and more specific, the Catholic Church, offered people something good. After the recent events I will now describe, I have completely changed my mind.

The first thing is the horrible things that Alex' link spoke of (read it!). A few days after that came out in the news, some Norwegian Catholic priests confessed that they have violated and sexually abused young alter boys. I cannot blame this on the Church, as crimes like these happen in many orginizations, not just the church. HOWEVER, the way the Catholic Church has dealt with these events, disturb me.

If any other orginization had discovered that one of its members had violated a young boy and broken the law in the most horrible manner, they would have not only fired him, but also seen it as their duty to report him to the police. The Catholic Church on the other hand, decided that they would not report the Norwegian priest to the police (it later came out that the Pope himself, on behalf of the Catholic Church, had paid the young alter boy considerable amounts of money (and of course, the promise of eternal glory in the afterlife) for his silence, or as the Vatican expressed it - "discreteness"). And not only that, the Catholic Church did not even fire the priest and he is to this day, still a priest.

The fact that the Pope himself has refused to to talk about the events, makes me lose more faith in the orginization. When they are the most powerful orginization in the entire world, they can simply mot behave the way they have.

I would like to see you stand up for the Church now David.
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Mr Master52
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I was checking some sites yesterday and I stumbled upon an interesting argument. I am sorry I can't respond to all of your above posts at once because I'm busy having a life with meaning, so here goes:

Say there's no God. Me and Eirik die, for example. So Eirik was right, nothing happens.
Say there's a God. Me and Eirik die, I was right, I get rewarded and Eirik goes to hell.

RATIONALLY SPEAKING, which is what atheists always demand, it is pointless being an atheist, because it is an indifferent-lose situation, while christianity has the best cards here. This, of course, applies to every other religion. I don't mean to pump up Christianity with this one, this train of thought proves that Atheism is irracional. Even if the chance of there being a God are below 1%, the best scenario for an atheist is the worst scenario for eg. Christians.

Now there is an atheist response to this argument which I am going to post here:

There is a God:

You are a good atheist-> you go to heaven
You are a good christian -> you go to heaven
You are a bad atheist -> you go to hell
You are a bad christian -> you go to hell

There is no God

[Indifference]

This is however FALSE because it assumes that a good atheist will automatically go to heaven.
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Mr Master52
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Oh btw I'm not afraid of dying; on the contrary! I would rather die than live forever because it would be selfish and everyone has to make space for the newer generations.
Wait 2 years and we'll (probably not) find out who was right after all...
If you were right, you can't laugh me in the face, because we would get the same thing: nothing.
If I was right, then I get to lol


Edited by Mr Master52, May 15 2010, 09:27 AM.
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Eirik
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The classic "What if" statement. Well, what if when you die, you turn into an alien and live a second life on planet Shitface? There are an infinite amount of answers to the question "What happens when you die?". I'm not gonna waste my life "believing" in something. I do not believe in anything but myself and barely that. According to my brain, the signals coming from my eyes tell me that this apple in front of me is red. My friend would confirm this; the apple is indeed red. However, I do not believe that this is true. Maybe there is no apple? Ever heard of the "brain in a vat" theory?

When there are NO real truths in the world, why waste your time on belief? I never cared about what happens after death and I never will care. Therefore, you can take your religion and promises of someting better in the great beyond and shove it up your ass :).
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Eddie
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Sort of the same way here. I'm not going to waste my time on something I know deep down I believe in. I'm strong enough to walk without a crutch.
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Mr Master52
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Eirik you're not an atheist you're an agnostic. You don't care.
And my point was that it is statistically irational to be someone that doesn't believe in Salvation. You might as well start your own church like in "Blasphemy" (a book I just read), but it's still better than nothing.

So all this atheist attacks are a payback for 300 year old murders? I thought atheists were more mature and didn't attack people for whatever their ancestors did 10 generations back...
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Eirik
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Oh I am an atheist.

To believe in God, is to believe in a lie. To believe in God is to blind your eyes from the truth. I will not be blinded.
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Eddie
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Mr Master52
May 23 2010, 04:39 PM
Eirik you're not an atheist you're an agnostic. You don't care.
And my point was that it is statistically irational to be someone that doesn't believe in Salvation. You might as well start your own church like in "Blasphemy" (a book I just read), but it's still better than nothing.

So all this atheist attacks are a payback for 300 year old murders? I thought atheists were more mature and didn't attack people for whatever their ancestors did 10 generations back...
Given science has proven absolutely nothing about God's existence or how a heaven could exist, the chance of heaven being real is around .05%. Don't believe me? Take every science book (well-credited without religious affiliation) in the world and see how many devote an entire section to the science of heaven. That small of a percent should show you how scientifically regarded "heaven" is. It's like saying there's a planet existing in a magical, different world and we believe it because some 5,000 year old book said it was there. My chance of going to your heaven is practically 0%, .05% less than yours.

It is statistically irrational for me to design my life around a religion when it is statistically likely to not be real (99.95% guaranteed it's fake).

BTW - you're forgetting everyone gets an afterlife in your religion. Blasphemy would be just as bad.
Edited by Eddie, May 25 2010, 07:25 PM.
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Mr Master52
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Why are we even wasting our time with this when this is obviously leading nowhere
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