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Rumours
Topic Started: Jun 1 2010, 09:01 PM (169 Views)
Venom
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Rumour has it Ichiro is unhappy in Seattle and wants out. :think:

I've always thought Ichiro was overrated and his salary is ridiculous, but imagine him in RF batting 2nd? :drool:

SS - Jeter
RF - Ichiro
1B - Tex
3B - A-Rod
2B - Canoo
C - Posada
DH - SLUG
CF - Granderson
LF - Gertner

:jerk:
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Grandy4MVP
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Let's package something (including Joba) and get him and Cliff Lee over here.
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Yanksfan03
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Sori4Mvp
Jun 1 2010, 09:06 PM
Let's package something (including Joba) and get him and Cliff Lee over here.
:rock:
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Strider
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Why would Ichiro bat behind Jeter?
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HomieYank
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Gets on base less...gets more hits...makes more contact. I get it.
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Strider
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Having Jeter on in front of him would limit Ichiro's steal attempts. And part of the Ichiro package is him stealing 35-40 and being a distraction to the pitcher. Jeter's .380-.400 OBP could be put to use in the 2 hole like Johnson's was supposed to.

Disclaimer: The Yankees won't get Ichiro.
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YankeeBaseball
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Get me Junior Griffey and while you're at it, Hattenberg ! :rock:
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HomieYank
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Strider
Jun 3 2010, 06:37 PM
Having Jeter on in front of him would limit Ichiro's steal attempts. And part of the Ichiro package is him stealing 35-40 and being a distraction to the pitcher. Jeter's .380-.400 OBP could be put to use in the 2 hole like Johnson's was supposed to.

Disclaimer: The Yankees won't get Ichiro.
Stealing a base advances you 1 base with the possibility of making out AND erasing a potential run (Ichiro in particular is caught 2 times every 10 times he tries to steal a base). The person behind you getting on base advances you at least 1 base with no threat of an out. The Yankees have an OBP around .370, the Mariners about .315. It doesn't matter where you hit him in the lineup, stealing bases would less important, less necessary, and less smart if Ichiro was a Yankee rather than a Mariner, meaning obviously that he should do it less often.

Why would you base where a guy hits in a lineup on a secondary skill that you are asking him to utilize less often?

For the record I dont' think it matters who hits 1st or 2nd in that scenario and Strider is right, Ichiro will NOT be a Yankee.
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Strider
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Because I like to fully utilize the abilities of the players. Having Ichiro here and making him a 20-steal guy would be a restriction of his talents. One of his best attributes is speed and the disruption he causes when he gets on base. In the situations where Jeter would be on in front of him, that would be taken away. If you're playing percentages: Ichiro successfully advances a base in 80% of his steal attempts. Jeter, right now, is getting on base 35.3% of the time. Ichiro taking off has a 20% chance of creating an out, and letting him stay put with Jeter batting has a 65.7% chance of creating an out - and most likely an out without the runner advancing. I think the steal attempt is worth it. I like speed and aggressiveness in a lineup, regardless of how much power there is. If your guys are able to steal at a high percentage, let them run and put as much pressure on the pitcher and defense as possible.
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HomieYank
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Speed is NOT Ichiro's best asset. The fact that he can hit .370, and regularly hits .350 is. He doesn't have the ML record for steals in a season, he holds the ML record for hits in a season. If you put him up first then you drastically limit the number of people that he will have on base when he gets those hits. For what? A 10 steal advantage over Jeter over the course of 162 games? Thats 1 extra base every 16 games. On a team like the M's that makes sense, when literally every hitter in your lineup gets on base close to 40% of the time it doesn't.

You like steals because they are fun to watch and they are uncommon. Championship teams rarely lead the league in steals.
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moomoo24
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You're both right and wrong to an extent.

Championship teams rarely lead the league in stolen bases but the Yankees, Phillies, Rays, Red Sox have all been in the top 10 or 11 the last few years. I don't care that Sabermetrics try and say attempting to steal a base isn't a smart move, if you have the type of team that can do it it's a huge weapon.

And Strider, the thing about Ichiro is he doesn't walk much. For a guy that has an OBP of .380 every year he averages 47 walks a year. With all the singles he gets you would hope that should Jeter be on base he'd be able to go 1st to 3rd, still giving Ichiro a chance to run. So if he was to traded to the Yankees today and walked even another 50 times, how many times is Jeter on base, maybe 20 of them? And in that case, for 20 times a year I'll be OK with Ichiro not being able to steal because there's still 2 on for Tex and A-Rod.

With that said, he's not going to be a Yankee.
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HomieYank
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moomoo24
Jun 4 2010, 08:17 AM
You're both right and wrong to an extent.

Championship teams rarely lead the league in stolen bases but the Yankees, Phillies, Rays, Red Sox have all been in the top 10 or 11 the last few years. I don't care that Sabermetrics try and say attempting to steal a base isn't a smart move, if you have the type of team that can do it it's a huge weapon.

And Strider, the thing about Ichiro is he doesn't walk much. For a guy that has an OBP of .380 every year he averages 47 walks a year. With all the singles he gets you would hope that should Jeter be on base he'd be able to go 1st to 3rd, still giving Ichiro a chance to run. So if he was to traded to the Yankees today and walked even another 50 times, how many times is Jeter on base, maybe 20 of them? And in that case, for 20 times a year I'll be OK with Ichiro not being able to steal because there's still 2 on for Tex and A-Rod.

With that said, he's not going to be a Yankee.
Sabermetrics actually say stealing bases is a good weapon if you can be successful 80% of the time (which Ichiro AND Jeter are). Stolen bases are so situational (well they are supposed to be anyway) that you can't measure their worth with statistics.

I actually like stolen bases. A lot. Track coach, remember? I just acknowledge that on a good team they are less necessary. If Ichiro comes here and steals 30 bases instead of 39 I won't think its a huge deal.

I seriously don't see a huge difference between which guy bats where because they are both pretty much the same hitter. Its just that to me the question should not come down to steals because neither player is making 20 million dollars because of stolen bases. The question is do you want Jeter and his near .400 OBP batting ahead of Tex/ARod or Ichiro and do you want Ichiro getting 230 hits a year with nobody on base a third of the time? Seriously I see no difference.
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