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Two things a team cannot win with a weak one; Bullpen and bench
Topic Started: Jun 13 2008, 10:16 PM (163 Views)
moomoo24
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Right now both of ours suck. Molina is a good backup catcher but everyone else on the bench is worthless. Betemit's only value to the team is being able to strike out from both sides of the plate and play bad defense at multiple positions. The bullpen is harder to figure out because its harder to find good bullpen arms but it's still subpar. Come July these are the major issues Cashman needs to focus on. The lineup is good enough and you can win with front 4 of Wang-Pettite-Joba-Mussina but we're not going anywhere over the long haul if some improvements aren't made.
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Giambi_MVP_25
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He's never been good at building a bench or a bullpen. It's really getting annoying.
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HomieYank
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Posada throwing like Damon and the yankees carrying 20 relievers hurts the bench. I don't mind the pen lately with Mo, Veres, Ramirez, Farnswoth in a reduced role, and Geisse all pitching decent. Hawkins is terrible and Ohlendorf has been bad. Both should be replaced soon.
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Mattingly23
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Part of the problem with the bench is that this team is full of highly paid players who are regulars at every position. Remember when they tried to sign Mark Loretta, who would have been a great bench player? Why would he sign with the Yankees when he'd never play? That's why I liked how certain positions (usually LF, 2B before Knoblauch) were unsettled back in the day. You could play the hot hand and/or utilize your bench more. That and Homie's point about carrying 23 pitchers are big factors.
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HomieYank
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Giambi_MVP_25
Jun 13 2008, 09:19 PM
He's never been good at building a bench or a bullpen. It's really getting annoying.

Edwar: 2.50 era
Britton: 1.29 era
Bruney: 1.59 era
Albaladejo: 3.95 era
Rasner: 3.46 era
Joba: 2.67 era

A lot of the people Cash picked up to help the pen have pitched well when here. Unfortunately sh*t happens and some of them got hurt or had to be moved to the rotation. As for the bench it always gets better after the trade deadline.
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moomoo24
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Guys like Loretta should be money slapped to the point they have no choice but to come here in a reduced role. If we can throw millions at 16 year old pitchers who won't sniff the majors until 2014 we can do the same for role players who would actually provide something for the big league club.

Carrying 4 1B/DH types at a time and not having a pinch runner since Homer Bush is an absolute disgrace.
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YankeeBaseball
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He was never flashy but I liked Miguel Cairo as a bench guy. He could do a lot of things pretty well. :peace:
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Mattingly23
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Jun 13 2008, 10:29 PM
He was never flashy but I liked Miguel Cairo as a bench guy. He could do a lot of things pretty well. :peace:

Has(tm) did I.
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Venom
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Mattingly23
Jun 13 2008, 10:32 PM
YankeeBaseball
Jun 13 2008, 10:29 PM
He was never flashy but I liked Miguel Cairo as a bench guy. He could do a lot of things pretty well.  :peace:

Has(tm) did I.

:please: I very clearly remember You and Myself arguing about Cairo vs Wilson on AIM!
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HomieYank
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YankeeBaseball
Jun 13 2008, 09:29 PM
He was never flashy but I liked Miguel Cairo as a bench guy. He could do a lot of things pretty well. :peace:

I gotta disagree with you and Matty on this one. Miggy's best tool was popularity. He couldn't hit a lick and wasn't good defensively anywhere except 2B. He was really bad at 1B, poor at 3B, and decent at best at SS. He could steal you a base, I'll give him that, but that was about it.



Veras is sick!!!!!!!!!
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Mattingly23
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Venom
Jun 13 2008, 10:34 PM
Mattingly23
Jun 13 2008, 10:32 PM
YankeeBaseball
Jun 13 2008, 10:29 PM
He was never flashy but I liked Miguel Cairo as a bench guy. He could do a lot of things pretty well.  :peace:

Has(tm) did I.

:please: I very clearly remember You and Myself arguing about Cairo vs Wilson on AIM!

No, I defended Wilson in the role he played since he didn't have to play much to those who said he sucked, but I always liked Cairo more than him. Cairo could actually start if needed. Wilson couldn't.

If I had to rank the utility men in my main days has(tm) a Yankees fan, it would probably be as such:

1. Sojo
2. Velarde
3. Vizcaino
4. Cairo
5. Fox/Bush
6. Wilson/Bellinger
7. Betemit
8. Tolleson

I lumped Fox and Bush together since Homer didn't get much of a chance to play the field.
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moomoo24
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The bench just has never seemed to have any defined roles. Miguel Cairo was fine as a utlity infielder but he never should have been playing first and he's not even the guy you want to be your pinch runner.

How hard would it be to have a bench of Gardner as your backup outfielder and pinch runner, Gonzalez as your defensive infield backup, Molina backing up catcher and a better version of Shelley Duncan, a Jeff Conine a couple years ago vet who can play 1st and rightfield if need be?
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HomieYank
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moomoo24
Jun 13 2008, 09:40 PM
The bench just has never seemed to have any defined roles. Miguel Cairo was fine as a utlity infielder but he never should have been playing first and he's not even the guy you want to be your pinch runner.

How hard would it be to have a bench of Gardner as your backup outfielder and pinch runner, Gonzalez as your defensive infield backup, Molina backing up catcher and a better version of Shelley Duncan, a Jeff Conine a couple years ago vet who can play 1st and rightfield if need be?

They are basically going to have that bench with Betemit instead of a Conine. I also expect Betemit to be traded at some point since he has no role on this team.
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Mattingly23
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Cairo and all other utility men who are natural middle infielders should never play first base, but it's become the rage in baseball the past 5 or so years. There should be a corner guy who backs up first and third, a la Ron Coomer, and even what Ensberg could have been if he remembered how to hit.
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Venom
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moomoo24
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Casey Blake is a free agent after this year and the Indians are going nowhere. He's playing 3rd and they have Marte waiting. A Betemit for Blake deal actually would make some sense for both teams. I wouldn't mind expanding it and trying to get Dellucci back too.
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HomieYank
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If the Tigers fall far enough out of it I wouldn't mind getting Thames back. He can play 1B and OF and though he isn't on base often, the guy flat out mashes.
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HomieYank
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Venom
Jun 13 2008, 09:48 PM

:yes: :clap:
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HomieYank
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moomoo24
Jun 13 2008, 09:49 PM
Casey Blake is a free agent after this year and the Indians are going nowhere.  He's playing 3rd and they have Marte waiting.  A Betemit for Blake deal actually would make some sense for both teams.  I wouldn't mind expanding it and trying to get Dellucci back too.

Thats a very good Idea. I don't know about Dellucci though. I'd rather get Gardner up here.
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Mattingly23
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My friend used to call Coomer, "Mini Giambi." He looked like his younger (although older), smaller brother (not Jeremy), and had a lot of the same mannerisms.
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YankeeBaseball
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HomieYank
Jun 13 2008, 10:51 PM
moomoo24
Jun 13 2008, 09:49 PM
Casey Blake is a free agent after this year and the Indians are going nowhere.  He's playing 3rd and they have Marte waiting.  A Betemit for Blake deal actually would make some sense for both teams.  I wouldn't mind expanding it and trying to get Dellucci back too.

Thats a very good Idea. I don't know about Dellucci though. I'd rather get Gardner up here.

Girardi already said he doesn't want to bring Gardner up because he wants him to play every day. :gaysmile:
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HomieYank
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YankeeBaseball
Jun 13 2008, 09:54 PM
HomieYank
Jun 13 2008, 10:51 PM
moomoo24
Jun 13 2008, 09:49 PM
Casey Blake is a free agent after this year and the Indians are going nowhere.  He's playing 3rd and they have Marte waiting.  A Betemit for Blake deal actually would make some sense for both teams.  I wouldn't mind expanding it and trying to get Dellucci back too.

Thats a very good Idea. I don't know about Dellucci though. I'd rather get Gardner up here.

Girardi already said he doesn't want to bring Gardner up because he wants him to play every day. :gaysmile:

Maybe for like a playoff push if not sooner. Once he's gotten like 450 ABs down there they can bring him up.
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HomieYank
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Cashman is going to have to trade Farnsworth to get him out of the 8th inning. Kinda like Proctor last year. I think Farsworth could be pretty decent if they get him out of that inning, but Girardi doesn't seem to want to do it.
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Mattingly23
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moomoo24
Jun 13 2008, 10:29 PM
Guys like Loretta should be money slapped to the point they have no choice but to come here in a reduced role. If we can throw millions at 16 year old pitchers who won't sniff the majors until 2014 we can do the same for role players who would actually provide something for the big league club.

Carrying 4 1B/DH types at a time and not having a pinch runner since Homer Bush is an absolute disgrace.

I just read through this again. If Loretta took more money to backup Cano and Jeter, who rarely take days off, over going to a team where he'd play more, wouldn't that be the more accurate definition of "whoring it up," a popular VC phrase for a player in a slump?

He was coming off a nice year for Boston and was offered more of a chance to play with Houston. Even if their middle infield spots were as tough to penetrate as the Yankees, in the NL he'd at least get the chance to pinch hit almost every day.

This just goes back to my original point regarding guys like Loretta. If second base was still unsettled, or there was the possibility of a platoon at one of the infield positions, guys would still sign as backups with the Yankees. These days there's very little chance to play, unlikely injuries notwithstanding.

Combine that with Homie's point about carrying so many pitchers, and it becomes tough to build a real bench like they had in the days of guys like Raines. I think if they do go with the young outfielders in the next few years, veteran outfielders will be interested in signing as backups because there will be chances to play if the youngsters struggle.

I absolutely agree about your 1B/DH point though. It's a team full of DHs, which makes it tough to get guys playing time, as well.
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moomoo24
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It's a chicken or the egg scenario. You could just as easily say that if we didnt have so many DH's and a guy like Loretta on the bench maybe you DH Cano or Jeter every once in awhile to give them a half day off. Either way a guy like that I think can be sold on the chance to win and not play as much if you pay him 4 million instead of the 2.5 Houston offered him.
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