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| Homie, Hughes Pitch Counts | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 2 2007, 09:14 PM (159 Views) | |
| HendoBaby | May 2 2007, 09:14 PM Post #1 |
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Not that this has to do with the injuries, but I was amazed to hear he has never thrown 90 pitches. I'm all for babying, especially in this day and age, but that seems a bit much. I'm not a doctor and I don't think there's a science to pitch count monitoring yet, but there's gotta be a middle ground between the Dusty Baker pitch em til they drop and the don't let a guy throw off-speed much as they develop and limit them to the point that they've never thrown more than 90 pitches. That just makes me think of a marathon runner that runs 10 miles every other day. At some point, they're going to have to be able to go the 25. That almost seems like too much babying. What happens when you want him once in awhile to give you 110 in a must have? He'll be so conditioned to that 90 at most IMO, he'll be at risk. |
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| HomieYank | May 2 2007, 09:24 PM Post #2 |
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I think he's pitched 90 before. Its just rare. He wasn't supposed to come up so early this year, the pitch count was supposed to be a progressive thing. A few years ago he had tendonitis and had to end his season early. Too make sure there wasn't a huge jump in innings or pitches to such a young arm they started with the innings/pitches monitoring. I don't think its about babying, its more about making sure there was never a huge spike in his IP year to year. Had he not pitched so few innings his first two pro years it would be different. |
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| HendoBaby | May 2 2007, 09:27 PM Post #3 |
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Not having thrown over 90 pitches is pretty pathetic IMO. I heard that this morning on ESPN Radio. How progressive can you get, 80 one year, 85 the next, 90 the next? That doesn't seem sound to me. I would think he'd start being conditioned to blow his wad early, since being on a pitch count that low is mighty weak. We're not talking a gradual workout progression where you get built up over weeks. This is years of not throwing more than 90. Years of being conditioned to not throw many pitches. I don't agree with that. Extend him once in awhile to 100, 105. And what's wrong with 98 if necessary instead of stopping at 90. Not all the time, but don't totally pussy him. That seems IMO better conditioning. I'm not a doctor, like I said, but there is no exactness to this issue. Just from what I understand of the body, I'd think letting him be conditioned to an EXACT amount that is pretty damn low is harmful in the long-term. Say you're at a gym one day and you're having a really good day, you feel strong. Are you stopping at the weight you usually do or you gonna go up a few pounds? And by going up a few pounds, you're bettering your condition for the next time. Why not for pitching? |
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| Bleedrngrblue | May 2 2007, 10:51 PM Post #4 |
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Is there any fight left in the dog.....?
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This pitch count crap is total garbage.It is ...in my humble opinion, the problem causing, rather than solving, arm problems for years now. |
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| Gategem | May 2 2007, 11:13 PM Post #5 |
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Member In Exile
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There was a relief pitcher, Mike Marshall, that had a totally different belief than the present day thinking of limited pitching counts. Dr. Marshall earned a PhD in Kinesiology and was a work horse in his tenure in the majors. I believe he holds the following records for relief pitchers: 1. Most appearances - 106 2. Most closing innings pitched - 208 3. Most consecutive appearances - 13 4. Most games finished – 84. OTOH I once read an article (I’m too lazy to research it again) that claimed that young pitchers (I believe 20 or younger) that are rushed all showed a marked reduction in velocity after a few years. I personally remember three, Don Gullet and Gary Nolan with the Reds and Doc Gooden with the Mets who had problems. Both Gullet and Nolan had arm injuries that destroyed their careers and beside the drug problems Gooden lost about 8 mph on his fastball. When he first came up to the Mets he threw 98, 99 mph occasionally touching 100 mph. Of course he had that curveball that I would rank only 2nd to Sandy Koufax who threw a power curve that no human being should be physically capable of throwing. |
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| Mantlemurcer | May 2 2007, 11:56 PM Post #6 |
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Home of Champions
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The really dumb thing is that pitchers get overused from little league all the way through high school. It's when they get to the pros that they get babied. I'm not comparing the talent level, but look how many pitches a player in the Japanse league throws and how different their conditioning is, including throw days. |
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| Bleedrngrblue | May 3 2007, 12:12 AM Post #7 |
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Is there any fight left in the dog.....?
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Good points MM. I think kids in high school are way overused. The bigger issue to me though, is these 11, 12, 13 year old kids being taught sliders and knucklers and curves. They should be throwing nothing but fastballs and straight changes at that age. It leads to alot of problems down the road since they are still growing and dont have the physically developed arm to withstand all that stress |
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| HendoBaby | May 3 2007, 10:16 PM Post #8 |
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Getting overused in little league could be causing injuries though. It might not actually be conditioning them. Todd Van Poppel is widely considered to have been ruined from overuse in High School. I'm for a middle ground between throw em til they drop and babying them. Baby them, but let them throw a lot on needed occassions and don't be afraid to let them over the pitch count a little. And when you got a big lead, like Hughes had the other day, go ahead and pull them. |
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| HomieYank | May 4 2007, 06:48 PM Post #9 |
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In 04 he threw 5 innings plus whatever he did in High School. In 05 he threw 85 innings. I don't think 90 is a drastically low pitch count for a 19 year old with a modest professional inning total who never threw a curveball prior to that season and experienced tendonitis the year before. The Yankees don't do this with every prospect. Clippard for example threw 149 pitches as a 19 year old in his second year. It all depends on what type of pitcher they are working with. House, Your gym analogy isn't exactly the same as this. Its not intensity that is being monitored, its volume. So he'll go up in weight, but he won't do extra sets/reps than normal. What I do know is that sports training usually evolves for a reason. Warning: Boring track analogy... Take track and field for example. I've worked with and competed against coaches with old school beliefs and practices. They ran high volume weeks and did a lot of overdistance work (not completely unlike what we are talking about). I never saw or experienced significant results with that type of program, and many very strong athletes regressed with them. Years later I broke the SUNYAC conference 400m record training at distances well below 400 meters...all because my coach understood that the "short" is what dictates the "long". That could be the philosophy behind Hughes' progression. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on arms. Legs are my department. I guess we'll just see what happens. I honestly don't think there is an exact science for this anyway. Either method can succeed and either can fail. |
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| HendoBaby | May 4 2007, 09:08 PM Post #10 |
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That's just as bad as being overworked in my opinion. So this guy hasn't been conditioned at any point to throw over 90 pitches. Who knows how his body will respond when they dare to put him over that mark. 90 is pretty low, especially for a strikeout pitcher. |
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| Bleedrngrblue | May 5 2007, 10:20 AM Post #11 |
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Is there any fight left in the dog.....?
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I'm no expert, but I'm old school, and continuous throwing was ok so long as it was limited to no breaking stuff, to build arm strength. Its the breaking stuff in most cases that destroys the arm over time. I think too many coaches have lost site of that fact. Especially at the high school level. There is no substitute for a well placed fastball with movement on it, and an occasional change of speed. |
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| HendoBaby | May 5 2007, 10:20 PM Post #12 |
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Good point. Pitchers don't locate the fastball like they used to. That Boeck yesterday had nice off-speed, but he got wrapped since he couldn't locate the fastball. |
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| HomieYank | May 6 2007, 04:50 PM Post #13 |
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What do ML pitchers average per start? I'm assuming its in the 105-115 range. Its not like Hughes is throwing 80-85 pitches and topping out at 90. He's throwing 90-95 every outing. He's never been taken out because of performance...maybe once. |
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| Bleedrngrblue | May 6 2007, 06:42 PM Post #14 |
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Is there any fight left in the dog.....?
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Homie...thats all well and good, but the kid should have pitched to 115 or so a few times already. These pitch counts keep getting smaller and smaller, whats next, a pitcher per inning! Its nothing short of the pusssification of Major league pitchers. Too much data and not enough sweat and guts! |
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| HomieYank | May 6 2007, 06:53 PM Post #15 |
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Data? Its a bit conservative, but when in doubt I think you have to er on the side of caution. He was 18-19 years old on a 90 pitch limit and this is a big deal? Now he is 20 on a 90-95 pitch recomendation(he would have went over in the no hitter). There is no reason for him to be throwing 115 pitches in any ballgame, especially minor league games that don't count. Either you believe in progression or you don't. If you believe in progression, then what they're doing is fine, perhaps a bit conservative. If you don't believe in progression then yes, they are being too conservative. |
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| Grandy4MVP | May 7 2007, 03:50 PM Post #16 |
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I'm more against the over-babying like this then I am against what Dusty f*cking did. I think Prior was going to be doomed like this no matter what, some guys just aren't durable. I'm for a middle ground though as well, but the Yanks are grooming their perfect pitcher. A 5 innings guy so f*cking Torre can over manage and pitch 5 to 6 guys a night out of the pen! Way to go boys! :rock: :clap: |
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