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Why....?
Topic Started: Dec 24 2006, 04:23 PM (127 Views)
rsj23terp

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Tiki has a good gain on first down, second and short yardage, and a passing play is called. Like clockwork.

Fire Coughlin. Fire Hufnagel.
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BleacherCreature

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rsj23terp
Dec 24 2006, 03:23 PM
Tiki has a good gain on first down, second and short yardage, and a passing play is called. Like clockwork.

Fire Coughlin. Fire Hufnagel.

Agreed.....On all 3 counts.

Both of thses guys need to be gone..I was a big supporter of Coughlin up until this season...But the way this team has brutally fallen apart and even failed to show up for games this season just leads me to believe that change needs to be made.....And it starts at the top....Coughlin needs to be held accountable for this mess...And Hufnagel just needs to be thrown in the trash....
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Giambi_MVP_25
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The playcalling has been terrible forever. A change definitely needs to be made.
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Gategem
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At least the front office sb happy it didn’t snow today. :laugh:
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Strider
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Forget that sequence. How about after a sack or penalty sets them back. The inevitable halfback dive off RT on 2nd & 17 that usually nets 0-3 yards and sets up a 3rd & long.

I stopped giving a f*ck about the 2006 season after the Bears loss. That loss + the Seahawks loss + the Colts loss told me that this team can't win a championship. And to me, unless you're a rebuilding team taking babysteps, it's title or nothing. Then the Titans loss told me that they'd implode and embarass themselves down the stretch like they did in 2003 and 2004. At this point, I no longer invest any emotion in them so I can step back and look at it objectively. And I laugh at this team. I was saying earlier that I followed the XFL, and the NY/NJ Hitmen weren't as sloppy or as difficult to watch.

And you guys know I wanted Santonio Holmes w/ the No. 25, right? Cano, about 10 minutes ago, was bitching about Kiwanuka struggling. After I addressed that, it led me to this (copy & pasted):

Quote:
 
By the way - I haven't paid much attention to him, so I just looked up Santonio Holmes numbers. He's got 700 yards (started just 2 games), dropped just 2 passes and he's catching 60% of the balls thrown in his direction. Just to give you an idea and help guage that percentage: Marvin is catching 62%, Chad Johnson is at 60%, Roy Williams is at 59%, T.O. is at 56% and Plaxico is at 54.1%

Ain't that a bitch. BUT, we have our pass rusher.


And that pass rush hasn't been excellent, hasn't it?

BTW - Coughlin has about 2-3 more seasons. There's a process. It starts with me hating the coach and wanting him fired. I started disliking Coughlin's bullshit and his bullshit offense from year 1. Now a lot of fans have caught on. Kinda like Fassel, who I wanted fired after 2001. And once that happens, the Giants give the coach 2 more years. So, expect to see Tommy on the sidelines next season.
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rsj23terp

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Strider, can I ask you something? Teams with top tier RB's, do they not force feed them the ball whenever they can?

Tomlinson, Alexander, Larry Johnson, Frank Gore, etc, etc.

Their teams feed them the ball until the other team stops it. The Giants have successful run plays all the time, but NEVER EVER follow it up with a run. I sat here today every 2nd and 3 or 4, and just say, "pass" and it comes. Its reached the point where I wonder how these guys became coaches.

I'm convinced Hufnagel thinks he's an offensive mastermind that is going to prove he can run a pass offense. Problem is, nothing in his playbook results in open recievers, and when it does, he doesn't have a QB who can get them the ball. I watch all these other games with recievers crossing the field WIDE OPEN. The Giants NEVER have that. Near as I can tell, they have 2 basic routes:

1) The go.

2) The comeback

That's it. They never run a slant or crossing pattern. Nobody is ever open that I can see. I realize Eli has taken several steps back, but is it possible that its due to a coaching staff that has its own agenda and refuses to play to the team's strengths? I just can't fathom WHY they think the Giants are a pass-first team. And here I thought Paul Hackett was the worst offensive coordinator in New York football history. Well, move over Paul, you've got company.
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Mantlemurcer
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Did you really expect them to win today? I can't believe they can still get in with a win next week. Of course, they'll get blown out in the 1st round. :wall:
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LEDZEP
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Close The Door, Put Out The Light ~~~~~~~~~~
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Giambi_MVP_25
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Quote:
 
He's got 700 yards (started just 2 games), dropped just 2 passes and he's catching 60% of the balls thrown in his direction.

He wouldn't have any of that with Eli throwing him the ball.
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Venom
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LEDZEP
Dec 24 2006, 09:06 PM
Close The Door, Put Out The Light ~~~~~~~~~~

COUGHLIN IS A DISGRACE
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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LEDZEP
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Dec 24 2006, 11:29 PM
LEDZEP
Dec 24 2006, 09:06 PM
Close The Door, Put Out The Light ~~~~~~~~~~

COUGHLIN IS A DISGRACE
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Strider
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rsj23terp
Dec 24 2006, 08:51 PM
Strider, can I ask you something?  Teams with top tier RB's, do they not force feed them the ball whenever they can? 

Tomlinson, Alexander, Larry Johnson, Frank Gore, etc, etc. 

Their teams feed them the ball until the other team stops it.  The Giants have successful run plays all the time, but NEVER EVER follow it up with a run.  I sat here today every 2nd and 3 or 4, and just say, "pass" and it comes.  Its reached the point where I wonder how these guys became coaches. 

I'm convinced Hufnagel thinks he's an offensive mastermind that is going to prove he can run a pass offense.  Problem is, nothing in his playbook results in open recievers, and when it does, he doesn't have a QB who can get them the ball.  I watch all these other games with recievers crossing the field WIDE OPEN.  The Giants NEVER have that.  Near as I can tell, they have 2 basic routes: 

1)  The go. 

2)  The comeback

That's it.  They never run a slant or crossing pattern.  Nobody is ever open that I can see.  I realize Eli has taken several steps back, but is it possible that its due to a coaching staff that has its own agenda and refuses to play to the team's strengths?  I just can't fathom WHY they think the Giants are a pass-first team.  And here I thought Paul Hackett was the worst offensive coordinator in New York football history.  Well, move over Paul, you've got company.

Well, if you ask Tom that, he'll tell you to compare Tiki's carry totals to the one's pre-Coughlin. He'd also say that Tiki's touched the ball 359 times this season, an average of 23.9 times per game. That, in addition to Jacobs' 111 touches, puts the averages up to 31.8 touches per for the backs. That isn't exactly playing keep-away from them.

And to be fair, he'd have a point. The Chargers backs average 30.4 touches. Tomlinson just does more with his and their offense, as a whole, is more efficient. Also, except for the Seahawks, the Giants have more weapons in the passing game; weapons who would pop off if ignored for too long. Larry Johnson has Tony Gonzalez and their best wideout, Eddy Kennison, has 47 catches. San Diego has Tomlinson and Gates, and some guys at receiver. On the 49ers, the receivers are Antonio Bryant and Arnaz Battle. The temptation for the Giants to go away from the run is greater because Burress is capable of 60-yard receptions like the one we saw today and Shockey is the "sparkplug." I also think that because Eli was the 1st overall and cost a lot, they'd hate to think (or admit) that he has to be cocooned and the team would have to win with him, not because of him. And, except the Carolina game - when receivers were dropping balls and Weinke was throwing passes like Eli - when was the last time the defense got a stop on 3rd down? That, plus the offense having so many "nothing" drives in the first halves, and they rarely have a lead to sit on. If they simply tried to pound it like the 2005 Steelers, teams would stack the box more often. And this offensive line isn't powerful enough (and it can't go 10 snaps without a penalty or breakdown) to face a 4-4 front and just bully the defense. Nor is Eli accurate or consistent enough to take full advantage of the secondary being one short.

Long story longer: That's why I don't have that much of a problem with the run:pass ratio. If I have a complaint there, it's when they chose to run or pass. I think the play-calling and the play design is more to fault. They play to their strengths, and when it's taken away, they can't adjust. Just like the players, the coaches don't respond well to adversity. If you've read and remembered my posts, I've been pointing to the Vikings game in 2005. When Eli went into that tailspin, I kept bringing it up. They exposed him and this passing offense with Cover 4 and Quarters defense. This is the best I could find online:

Posted Image

Something like that, except the safeties are at normal depth and stay in that 2-deep zone, while the corners drop way back into coverage and man the deep corners. So it's 4 DBs, each responsible for a deep quarter of the field. The linebackers spread out and go into what I call "bubble zones" and occupy the middle of the field underneath. It's perfect for taking away what the Giants like to do. You run that go route to Plaxico, he doesn't get a step because the corner's already dropped back and he's bracketed by a safety (Eli threw a few picks into those coverages last year, trying to force it to him). If he runs a deep in route - like he scorched the Rams on - then Eli's going to have to make an accurate throw it over the linebackers and catch him crossing before the FS and SS can coverge. But like I said, it requires an accurate throw. They like to use Shockey on shallow drag routes and curls. Against that defense, he's running at linebacker depth, therefore into traffic, and he won't get much separation - as you pointed out. After the Vikings intercepted Eli 4 times and made this "high-powered" offense look like sh*t, they faced that and similar defenses the rest of the season. How do you combat that? Get conservative and run the ball more and hitch, hook and curl them underneath. That WR screeen they've fallen in love with this year, they could've used that a year ago. It's pretty much Prevent defense, just with the secondary less deep. How many times have you seen teams pick a Prevent apart underneath with 4 yards here, 7 yards there and move it methodically? sh*t, we see it every time the Giants have a small lead to protect. They also have a running back who can catch. I'm making this post longer than it should be, but I have to include certain things to illustrate my point: Going over the tapes last year, I counted 7 interceptions thrown by Eli while Tiki was open in the flat for an easy completion. I counted 4 touchdown passes Eli could've had to Tiki but either missed on the throw or didn't look to him. Those defenses leave the flats wide open for swing passes. They could've done that. But they refused to settle for that 4-yard gain. We had Johnny Unitas back there, so chuck it!

You wanna know why I nit-pick and complain, and why I wanted Coughlin fired and could've give a f*ck about him leading them to a division title? Because every f*cking week I'd watch the tape and see the same things from the defenses and the same things from Coughlin/Hufnagel's offense. Where were the adjustments? And people were wondering how it was possible for Eli to have gone into such a slump. Simple: inexperienced, inaccurate QB + coordinator and coach who have him consistently throwing 20-yard passes into Quarters defense = 12 second half INTs and 3 more in the playoffs.

You know when they made the adjustments and started using shorter routes? Against the Falcons this year. It took them that long. But, to their credit, it's what's kept Eli's completion percentage from dropping further. It dipped from over 70% the first few weeks into the low 60s and it's settled around 58-59. :clap:

In addition to that, the play-call sequence is predictible. And usually on that 2nd & 4 pass, they're looking to take a big bite. They don't want 5 yards and a 1st down, they want the big play. The result of that is usually 3rd & 4. And lately, it's been 3rd & long after a penalty or sack pushes them back.

Part of the problem with the lack of separation is the play-calling, and part of it is that the receivers aren't good route runners. That's part of the deal with having big receivers. They don't have the start 'n stop quickness, footwork and agility to run precise routes. Shockey, for his size, does a pretty good job, but that's it. And with his role in the offense, he's given a limited number of routes to run. Plaxico, whatever should be a sharp break gets rounded off. You put him on a post and it looks something like the letter "r." I don't think it's because he's a f*ck-up why that is, though. I think being that tall and having long legs, it's probably hard to control. Tim Carter was running good routes in pre-season, but that went to hell. When you don't have great route runners, even if there's a speed advantage, corners usually aren't burned badly enough to not be able to react while the ball is up. That's why damn near every catch has to be made in traffic. Nothing comes easy.

Another part of the problem is spacing is poor. They'll have two receivers in the same area running similar depth routes too often. I once saw Plaxico on an 8-yard hitch with Carter from the slot running a 5-yard out. That's four players being drawn to the same area, and a 3-yard buffer is nothing. They don't use crossing routes enough (which often kills man coverage if you've got speed at receiver), with Toomer out, nobody runs the deep out well enough (plus Eli tends to sail it out of bounds a lot) and the quarterback doesn't have the accuracy to fit it in the window consistently against a Cover 2.

For this team, Hacket would actually be better than Hufnagel. He was a moron as a play-caller, but I liked him as a play designer. He'd spend 90% of the game running quick outs, swing passes and draws, but when he broke something out, it would be good. And his offense was designed to quickly get the ball out of the QB's hand and let the receivers get YAC. The Giants offense has more talent than those Jets teams' did. If Eli could have as high a completion percentage as Pennington did (that'll be the day), this offense would be so much more efficient and they'd do a lot more damage than the Jets' did.

And I always wonder, especially since it's been brought up that the front office might make Coughlin fire Hufnagel: If Coughlin had a problem with the play-calling, why, as a head coach and an offensive coach himself, wouldn't he make him change, get on the same page, or even take over the play-calling? Is it that he's a hands-off coach? Is it that he actually likes the job Hufnagel has done? He doesn't get nearly enough blame for this sh*t.
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Strider
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Giambi_MVP_25
Dec 24 2006, 11:09 PM
Quote:
 
He's got 700 yards (started just 2 games), dropped just 2 passes and he's catching 60% of the balls thrown in his direction.

He wouldn't have any of that with Eli throwing him the ball.

True. Although Roethlisberger is having a worse year. He's completing just 0.6% more and they're around the same in yards, but he's got fewer TDs and leads the league in INTs. But it's something that Holmes, under those conditions, has put up those numbers as the slot receiver. And he's averaging 10.3 yards/punt return.

Not a model citizen, but he has good speed and can run routes. Just to expound on what I said in the last post - he would've brought what this wide receiver group is missing. He doesn't have blazing speed (about a 93-94 if you're creating him in Madden), but he was the best route runner in the draft (Jason Avant was 2nd best, by the way). And except for the freakishly athletic ones, route running is generally what sets the top receivers apart. Torry Holt doesn't have great size, leaping ability or blazing speed (similar speed to Holmes), but he'll run the sh*t outta route and he's got great hands. Jimmy Smith wasn't all that big and he wasn't fast, but Champ Bailey said he was tough because he was the best route runner in the league. I'd give that title to Marvin, but f*ck it, Champ said it so it's got some validity.

He and Jonathan Scott were my guys. Scott dropped because he's not as strong as his size would indicate and played with no leverage or power when run blocking, but he, in my opinion, was the second best pass blocker in the draft. Amazing instincts, technique and quickness. He's starting at RT for the Lions now. And because of his weakness, I don't even think that's a spot where he can succeed. The stats back up what I thought. They're averaging just 2.92 YPC running behind him, but he's given up 3 sacks in 11 games. And I don't think you can teach his instincts and quickness against the speed rush, but you can force him into the weight room and teach him to get low when he's run blocking. Not a bad 3rd round project. He's who I wanted them to groom to take over for Luke. Well, let's just hope that Guy Whimper is the next Walter Jones.
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BleacherCreature

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Damn, Strider..... Way to drop the knowledge....No sh*t.

:rock:
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