|
Good Riddance Sammy
|
|
Topic Started: Feb 18 2006, 12:58 AM (239 Views)
|
|
Mantlemurcer
|
Feb 18 2006, 12:58 AM
Post #1
|
Home of Champions
- Posts:
- 27,513
- Group:
- Moderator
- Member
- #5
- Joined:
- January 29, 2004
|
- Quote:
-
Good riddance, Sammy Friday, February 17, 2006 BY DAN GRAZIANO Star-Ledger Staff
Sammy Sosa, insulted by the Nationals' contract offer, is threatening to retire.
These are the kinds of threats you'd like to hear more of.
Kind of like your boss threatening to stop asking you to work weekends. NBC threatening to cut back on the cross-country skiiing coverage. Dick Cheney threatening not to invite you on his next hunting trip.
Seriously, haven't we had enough of Sammy Sosa by now? The guy pouted his way out of the toddlin' town that made him famous, asked Congress to believe he didn't speak English when they asked him about steroids, and then basically stole about $9 million from the Baltimore Orioles (who should have known better but never seem to).
Anybody who saw Sosa play in 2005 had to wonder how the ghost of Cesar Geronimo managed to come to life and swipe the uniform of a man who'd once hit 292 home runs over a five-year stretch.
Then again, nobody was really wondering, were they?
Ah, people can crow all they want about how there's no hard evidence against Smilin' Sammy, but by this point we're all free to suspect anything about these guys. And remember -- always remember -- that among all of the suspected steroid cheats, Sosa is the one who was once caught red-handed cheating at baseball in a different way. That's right. Sosa corked his bat.
So go on, Sammy, go. You don't want to play for peanuts? Fine.
Quit whining and go home.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Star-Ledger
|
|
|
| |
|
PavanosBalls
|
Feb 18 2006, 01:03 AM
Post #2
|
|
Unregistered
|
He could have retired mid-season last year and saved some dignity. f*cking egos. They are everywhere.
|
|
|
| |
|
HomieYank
|
Feb 18 2006, 02:41 AM
Post #3
|
- Posts:
- 12,064
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #198
- Joined:
- August 18, 2004
|
I can't stand the Idea of Sammy/Palmeiro/Giambi in the HOF, but I want Bonds there. Is that hypocritical of me? I just think Bonds earned it before his homerun explosion where the others really hadn't. I'm sure they busted their asses to be in such rediculous shape, but the fact is they turned fly balls into homeruns and DRASTICALLY improved their health and recovery by juicing. It bothered me when Pena and Cepeda got in and they didn't even cheat. These guys and maybe even McGwire just bother me as candidates.
|
|
|
| |
|
Mattingly23
|
Feb 18 2006, 03:52 AM
Post #4
|
- Posts:
- 18,455
- Group:
- Moderator
- Member
- #74
- Joined:
- April 29, 2004
|
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 01:41 AM
I can't stand the Idea of Sammy/Palmeiro/Giambi in the HOF, but I want Bonds there. Is that hypocritical of me? I just think Bonds earned it before his homerun explosion where the others really hadn't. I'm sure they busted their asses to be in such rediculous shape, but the fact is they turned fly balls into homeruns and DRASTICALLY improved their health and recovery by juicing. It bothered me when Pena and Cepeda got in and they didn't even cheat. These guys and maybe even McGwire just bother me as candidates.
I hear what you're saying. Even without roids Bonds was a 500/500 guy with Gold Gloves and MVPs. The other guys weren't.
|
|
|
| |
|
HomieYank
|
Feb 18 2006, 04:42 AM
Post #5
|
- Posts:
- 12,064
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #198
- Joined:
- August 18, 2004
|
- Mattingly23
- Feb 18 2006, 02:52 AM
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 01:41 AM
I can't stand the Idea of Sammy/Palmeiro/Giambi in the HOF, but I want Bonds there. Is that hypocritical of me? I just think Bonds earned it before his homerun explosion where the others really hadn't. I'm sure they busted their asses to be in such rediculous shape, but the fact is they turned fly balls into homeruns and DRASTICALLY improved their health and recovery by juicing. It bothered me when Pena and Cepeda got in and they didn't even cheat. These guys and maybe even McGwire just bother me as candidates.
I hear what you're saying. Even without roids Bonds was a 500/500 guy with Gold Gloves and MVPs. The other guys weren't.
I just wish these clowns never did that. Somebody actually told me recently they thought the best player they ever saw play was Thurman Munson...when I asked about Bonds they brought steroids up, which is just crap. Its annoying that what would have been has to be assumed at all in regards to this crap. Track is so dirty that I rarely even pay attention to who is doing what at the proffesional level. Outside of my races and other college races I could care less, although I am aware. Obviously I can't do that with baseball which makes it bother me even more.
|
|
|
| |
|
Yanksfan03
|
Feb 18 2006, 05:36 AM
Post #6
|
VC 4 Life.
- Posts:
- 23,470
- Group:
- VC_Members
- Member
- #56
- Joined:
- April 28, 2004
|
$50 says he's a Yankee by mid-March. :clap: :agent:
|
|
|
| |
|
PavanosBalls
|
Feb 18 2006, 08:20 AM
Post #7
|
|
Unregistered
|
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 01:41 AM
I can't stand the Idea of Sammy/Palmeiro/Giambi in the HOF, but I want Bonds there. Is that hypocritical of me? I just think Bonds earned it before his homerun explosion where the others really hadn't. I'm sure they busted their asses to be in such rediculous shape, but the fact is they turned fly balls into homeruns and DRASTICALLY improved their health and recovery by juicing. It bothered me when Pena and Cepeda got in and they didn't even cheat. These guys and maybe even McGwire just bother me as candidates.
I'm mixed on it because there's no real evidence to deprive. You won't have to worry about Giambi going in, but Sammy and Raffy on numbers deserve to be in the Hall. Unless revelations come out that they were using in their prime and it was substantiated, they deserve to be in. Worst case scenario is even if they got in and no evidence was ever brought out aside from what we have now to keep them out, at least you can respect the fact they had to skill to do what they did, do it at a high level that most couldn't do even with a performance advantage, and put in the hardwork that got the results out of the juicing. It wouldn't really hurt me though for those reasons above. They still did what they did when the emphasis wasn't on eradicating baseball of steroids. Hey, they put the work in and got the results. Palmeiro also had one of the best left-handed swings we'll ever see and was a gold-glove caliber fielder. He was durable too, which is a knock of supposed users.
|
|
|
| |
|
Mattingly23
|
Feb 18 2006, 10:56 AM
Post #8
|
- Posts:
- 18,455
- Group:
- Moderator
- Member
- #74
- Joined:
- April 29, 2004
|
Raffy's power as a Cub and Ranger before the year Canseco got there is pretty telling. Sosa was clearly juicing throughout his prime too. Bonds was amazing without the roids, and I agree Homie, I wish he never touched them. I'd still think he was a dickhead, but I'd respect him so much more.
|
|
|
| |
|
Mantlemurcer
|
Feb 18 2006, 12:53 PM
Post #9
|
Home of Champions
- Posts:
- 27,513
- Group:
- Moderator
- Member
- #5
- Joined:
- January 29, 2004
|
- Yanksfan03
- Feb 18 2006, 04:36 AM
Who? Sosa? :please:
|
|
|
| |
|
PavanosBalls
|
Feb 18 2006, 01:14 PM
Post #10
|
|
Unregistered
|
I looked up Palmeiro's stats and I don't see anything really drastic. He was a low-strikeout, decent OBP, good average type of hitter when he came up. It would make sense considering his swing and he seemingly had similar patience his entire career. His first real chance in 1987, he hit 14 HRs in 221 AB, which is definitely good power numbers. He certainly had power in him to do that. After that, he had two years of 8 HRs, then 14, 26, 22, 37, 23, 39, 39, and off he went. His breakout year was around his 26, 27th birthday which is normal for players where he hit .322 26 HRs and .532 SLG. When did Canseco say he helped him? Before 91? He hit .319 with 14 HRs and 89 RBI the year before as a 25 year old. Just following guys from a fantasy perspective, and ignoring how much I love Raffy's swing, if a guy put a year like that up at 25, I wouldn't say much would be out of character unless he started putting up 40 HRs right away. Really, him being a good hitter was in his character and the power development is natural for hitters. Or is he saying he started when he went into the 30s and Raffy would have never reached the 30s without him? I'm intrigued at what Canseco could have said, because there's not a point where you can really point at, unless you want to start with 37. His slugging percentage difference was only .022 different from his breakout power year(26) and his first 37 HR season. And let's be fair too, Arlington Stadium and Camden were where the majority of his HRs came. His 40 HR seasons were in those bandboxes. From the perspective of are his numbers out of character taking everything into consideration, including the fact that players evolve, there's actually less of case to be made than I thought and I never really looked them over. Plus, he was rushed up to the bigs. He only played Triple A one half year and hit 11 HRs in 214 AB. He had power in him.
The better roid argument is always Sosa in my eyes. Raffy's raw hitting ability and swing is being totally ignored now based on the steroids controversy. Sosa's numbers were for the dogs before he became a powerhitter, although I'm not saying he definitely did. I just think Raffy deserves credit. It's easy for people to sit down that don't hit the gym, don't have the ability, and judge these athletes as all juiced up, taking away credit whenever possible. I can't take away all of Raffy's credit.
|
|
|
| |
|
PavanosBalls
|
Feb 18 2006, 01:37 PM
Post #11
|
|
Unregistered
|
Homie, look up Raffy's stats and can you honestly say you're shocked? I think it was much more gradual than it's made sound, and considering how young he was when he was up, it makes a lot of sense to me his numbers knowing what I do about Raffy.
|
|
|
| |
|
HomieYank
|
Feb 18 2006, 02:49 PM
Post #12
|
- Posts:
- 12,064
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #198
- Joined:
- August 18, 2004
|
- PavanosBalls
- Feb 18 2006, 12:37 PM
Homie, look up Raffy's stats and can you honestly say you're shocked? I think it was much more gradual than it's made sound, and considering how young he was when he was up, it makes a lot of sense to me his numbers knowing what I do about Raffy.
Not completely shocked, but still completely un impressed. There was a couple of 8 homer seasons, full seasons before he started hitting 20, but like you said he was entetering that age when he had his first power year, plus he started striking out more, which could be looked at as evidence to the HRs going up, and baseball itself was transforming at the time(although now we know why). Thats besides the point though, since he actually tested positive after benig ratted on by Canseco, I don't think we need to argue the steroids thing. Proof that he took it is enough evidence for me. Add the steroids to the parks, the lineups, two expansion years, the biggest joke of a gold glove ever, and the fact that he only had one real hall of fame type season. The guy has always been a compiler, and I would have had him on the fence even if he didn't cheat. Without looking guess how many RBI the guy has, then look at the actual total, its crap. He has some of the most watered down numbers ever.
I'll admit though, I just don't like the guy. And the fact that Frank Thomas is "on the fence" for alot of experts is a Joke when you think that Palmeiro is probably gonna get in.
|
|
|
| |
|
PavanosBalls
|
Feb 18 2006, 02:56 PM
Post #13
|
|
Unregistered
|
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 01:49 PM
- PavanosBalls
- Feb 18 2006, 12:37 PM
Homie, look up Raffy's stats and can you honestly say you're shocked? I think it was much more gradual than it's made sound, and considering how young he was when he was up, it makes a lot of sense to me his numbers knowing what I do about Raffy.
Not completely shocked, but still completely un impressed. There was a couple of 8 homer seasons, full seasons before he started hitting 20, but like you said he was entetering that age when he had his first power year, plus he started striking out more, which could be looked at as evidence to the HRs going up, and baseball itself was transforming at the time(although now we know why). Thats besides the point though, since he actually tested positive after benig ratted on by Canseco, I don't think we need to argue the steroids thing. Proof that he took it is enough evidence for me. Add the steroids to the parks, the lineups, two expansion years, the biggest joke of a gold glove ever, and the fact that he only had one real hall of fame type season. The guy has always been a compiler, and I would have had him on the fence even if he didn't cheat. Without looking guess how many RBI the guy has, then look at the actual total, its crap. He has some of the most watered down numbers ever. I'll admit though, I just don't like the guy. And the fact that Frank Thomas is "on the fence" for alot of experts is a Joke when you think that Palmeiro is probably gonna get in.
Consistancy should be what you look at from Palmeiro though. And his "compiler" years weren't being dwarfed. He was still one of the top sluggers in the league. I remember wanting him badly when the rumors were putting him in LF, but he wanted to stay at 1B. I recall there was a game where Torre actually used Dale Polley to play the matchups on Palmeiro to end the game, and I'm pretty positive he could have used Wetteland. Palmeiro was respected big-time. I agree that he isn't Frank Thomas at all or even Jim Thome. I think you are being a bit biased, while I'm probably biased being not as anti-steroid as the average person. He showed he was a capable hitter even at the beginning unlike Sosa.
|
|
|
| |
|
HomieYank
|
Feb 18 2006, 03:01 PM
Post #14
|
- Posts:
- 12,064
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #198
- Joined:
- August 18, 2004
|
- PavanosBalls
- Feb 18 2006, 01:56 PM
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 01:49 PM
- PavanosBalls
- Feb 18 2006, 12:37 PM
Homie, look up Raffy's stats and can you honestly say you're shocked? I think it was much more gradual than it's made sound, and considering how young he was when he was up, it makes a lot of sense to me his numbers knowing what I do about Raffy.
Not completely shocked, but still completely un impressed. There was a couple of 8 homer seasons, full seasons before he started hitting 20, but like you said he was entetering that age when he had his first power year, plus he started striking out more, which could be looked at as evidence to the HRs going up, and baseball itself was transforming at the time(although now we know why). Thats besides the point though, since he actually tested positive after benig ratted on by Canseco, I don't think we need to argue the steroids thing. Proof that he took it is enough evidence for me. Add the steroids to the parks, the lineups, two expansion years, the biggest joke of a gold glove ever, and the fact that he only had one real hall of fame type season. The guy has always been a compiler, and I would have had him on the fence even if he didn't cheat. Without looking guess how many RBI the guy has, then look at the actual total, its crap. He has some of the most watered down numbers ever. I'll admit though, I just don't like the guy. And the fact that Frank Thomas is "on the fence" for alot of experts is a Joke when you think that Palmeiro is probably gonna get in.
Consistancy should be what you look at from Palmeiro though. And his "compiler" years weren't being dwarfed. He was still one of the top sluggers in the league. I remember wanting him badly when the rumors were putting him in LF, but he wanted to stay at 1B. I agree that he isn't Frank Thomas at all or even Jim Thome. I think you are being a bit biased, while I'm probably biased being not as anti-steroid as the average person. He showed he was a capable hitter even at the beginning unlike Sosa.
oh. Yeah, I TOTALLY agree that his stats are/seem 100% less fake than Sammy's.
|
|
|
| |
|
PavanosBalls
|
Feb 18 2006, 03:03 PM
Post #15
|
|
Unregistered
|
To be fair, Sosa was raw and unpolished, but I'm not going to argue for him.
|
|
|
| |
|
HomieYank
|
Feb 18 2006, 03:05 PM
Post #16
|
- Posts:
- 12,064
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #198
- Joined:
- August 18, 2004
|
You could say the same thing about McGwire too. really if anybody were to hit 70 it would be him. He was breaking homerun records his rookie season. But having studied steroid and knowing how much it helps your durability, recovery, confidence ect, I can't believe he'd have done what he did without them. especially given the fact that he was injury prone. Without roids Palmeiro was probably a .279, 500+, 1400+ player with a .830something OPS...in those parks
|
|
|
| |
|
PavanosBalls
|
Feb 18 2006, 03:07 PM
Post #17
|
|
Unregistered
|
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 02:05 PM
You could say the same thing about McGwire too. really if anybody were to hit 70 it would be him. He was breaking homerun records his rookie season. But having studied steroid and knowing how much it helps your durability, recovery, confidence ect, I can't believe he'd have done what he did without them. especially given the fact that he was injury prone. Without roids Palmeiro was probably a .279, 500+, 1400+ player with a .830something OPS...in those parks
McGwire worked out like a beast though. He put the work in. Yeah, the steroids enhance the work, but I hate the way steroids discount people's hard-work. You actually need to workout harder than ever to get results; you can't just do what you normally do. I saw McGwire hitting the gym like a fiend, eating plates of ribs, pounding protein, swinging the bat. How many juicers have forearms as big as his were?
|
|
|
| |
|
HomieYank
|
Feb 18 2006, 03:23 PM
Post #18
|
- Posts:
- 12,064
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #198
- Joined:
- August 18, 2004
|
- PavanosBalls
- Feb 18 2006, 02:07 PM
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 02:05 PM
You could say the same thing about McGwire too. really if anybody were to hit 70 it would be him. He was breaking homerun records his rookie season. But having studied steroid and knowing how much it helps your durability, recovery, confidence ect, I can't believe he'd have done what he did without them. especially given the fact that he was injury prone. Without roids Palmeiro was probably a .279, 500+, 1400+ player with a .830something OPS...in those parks
McGwire worked out like a beast though. He put the work in. Yeah, the steroids enhance the work, but I hate the way steroids discount people's hard-work. You actually need to workout harder than ever to get results; you can't just do what you normally do. I saw McGwire hitting the gym like a fiend, eating plates of ribs, pounding protein, swinging the bat. How many juicers have forearms as big as his were?
Believe it or not I agree with you on this part. He likely worked out harder than anyone in baseball, they all did, but they wouldn't have been able to had they been clean. Thats just the law of overload, they would have got hurt. You juiced for a while right? Am I way off on the effects? The reason track is so dirty is that almost all improvement occurs while recovering from workouts, so my knowledge on the subject is geared towards track. I can see Mac in the Hall because I honestly think he would have done most of what he did anyway, but he also may have been one of those injury prone guys that just couldn't get it together long enough to get in.
Everything concerning steroids is so missconstrude. Most people don't know that Carl Lewis was likely on way more crap than Ben Johnson the year of all that controversy. The reason I hate it is because it creates all these annoying what if conversations and most people really don't understand them at all, myself included. When people completely discredit Bond's career it drives me crazy. The man's swing is perfect.
|
|
|
| |
|
PavanosBalls
|
Feb 18 2006, 03:28 PM
Post #19
|
|
Unregistered
|
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 02:23 PM
- PavanosBalls
- Feb 18 2006, 02:07 PM
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 02:05 PM
You could say the same thing about McGwire too. really if anybody were to hit 70 it would be him. He was breaking homerun records his rookie season. But having studied steroid and knowing how much it helps your durability, recovery, confidence ect, I can't believe he'd have done what he did without them. especially given the fact that he was injury prone. Without roids Palmeiro was probably a .279, 500+, 1400+ player with a .830something OPS...in those parks
McGwire worked out like a beast though. He put the work in. Yeah, the steroids enhance the work, but I hate the way steroids discount people's hard-work. You actually need to workout harder than ever to get results; you can't just do what you normally do. I saw McGwire hitting the gym like a fiend, eating plates of ribs, pounding protein, swinging the bat. How many juicers have forearms as big as his were?
Believe it or not I agree with you on this part. He likely worked out harder than anyone in baseball, they all did, but they wouldn't have been able to had they been clean. Thats just the law of overload, they would have got hurt. You juiced for a while right? Am I way off on the effects? The reason track is so dirty is that almost all improvement occurs while recovering from workouts, so my knowledge on the subject is geared towards track. I can see Mac in the Hall because I honestly think he would have done most of what he did anyway, but he also may have been one of those injury prone guys that just couldn't get it together long enough to get in. Everything concerning steroids is so missconstrude. Most people don't know that Carl Lewis was likely on way more crap than Ben Johnson the year of all that controversy. The reason I hate it is because it creates all these annoying what if conversations and most people really don't understand them at all, myself included. When people completely discredit Bond's career it drives me crazy. The man's swing is perfect.
I used it briefly, but it wasn't for me. I thought to myself, why am I doing this and stopped. Had I been an athlete needing an edge, maybe that'd have been my reason. I wasn't dillusional when I did pro wrestling; I just wanted to have fun, work a few shows. It wasn't a dream, so I didn't take it for that reason.
Yeah, steroids obviously better your performance, but who knows. There's plenty of guys that bust their ass like fiends and don't take steroids. Maybe Mac hits 63 instead of 70. We have no idea. Maybe he had just a little too much muscle. The guy did, as you said, come into the league and hit 49 HRs.
Yeah, overall as a player, you won't find many better than Bonds was. I give you enormous props for that and not discrediting him. Plus, he DOES bust his ass. He's worked out with a trainer for a long-time, which wasn't exactly necessary with the natural skill he has. I respect the f*ck out of guys with talent that combine it with work ethic. I get the vibe Manny Ramirez and Bernie Williams for example didn't bust their ass.
|
|
|
| |
|
HomieYank
|
Feb 18 2006, 03:35 PM
Post #20
|
- Posts:
- 12,064
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #198
- Joined:
- August 18, 2004
|
- PavanosBalls
- Feb 18 2006, 02:28 PM
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 02:23 PM
- PavanosBalls
- Feb 18 2006, 02:07 PM
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 02:05 PM
You could say the same thing about McGwire too. really if anybody were to hit 70 it would be him. He was breaking homerun records his rookie season. But having studied steroid and knowing how much it helps your durability, recovery, confidence ect, I can't believe he'd have done what he did without them. especially given the fact that he was injury prone. Without roids Palmeiro was probably a .279, 500+, 1400+ player with a .830something OPS...in those parks
McGwire worked out like a beast though. He put the work in. Yeah, the steroids enhance the work, but I hate the way steroids discount people's hard-work. You actually need to workout harder than ever to get results; you can't just do what you normally do. I saw McGwire hitting the gym like a fiend, eating plates of ribs, pounding protein, swinging the bat. How many juicers have forearms as big as his were?
Believe it or not I agree with you on this part. He likely worked out harder than anyone in baseball, they all did, but they wouldn't have been able to had they been clean. Thats just the law of overload, they would have got hurt. You juiced for a while right? Am I way off on the effects? The reason track is so dirty is that almost all improvement occurs while recovering from workouts, so my knowledge on the subject is geared towards track. I can see Mac in the Hall because I honestly think he would have done most of what he did anyway, but he also may have been one of those injury prone guys that just couldn't get it together long enough to get in. Everything concerning steroids is so missconstrude. Most people don't know that Carl Lewis was likely on way more crap than Ben Johnson the year of all that controversy. The reason I hate it is because it creates all these annoying what if conversations and most people really don't understand them at all, myself included. When people completely discredit Bond's career it drives me crazy. The man's swing is perfect.
I used it briefly, but it wasn't for me. I thought to myself, why am I doing this and stopped. Had I been an athlete needing an edge, maybe that'd have been my reason. I wasn't dillusional when I did pro wrestling; I just wanted to have fun, work a few shows. It wasn't a dream, so I didn't take it for that reason. Yeah, steroids obviously better your performance, but who knows. There's plenty of guys that bust their ass like fiends and don't take steroids. Maybe Mac hits 63 instead of 70. We have no idea. Maybe he had just a little too much muscle. The guy did, as you said, come into the league and hit 49 HRs.
I hope it didn't seem like I was judging, like Canseco said when done correctly they can help a person live to be 100 years old. In sports though, since not everbody is using them, the people who do bother me. This isn't the case, but if for example the 4 guys who finished ahead of me at nationals were juicing it could have cost me something really special since I wasn't doing it. Again, not the case, but there are examples where it is for other guys that aren't using. I know a few guys that use or used it in Highschool. Most of them look like water baloons now because they don't know how to work out or like idiots they just didn't.
|
|
|
| |
|
PavanosBalls
|
Feb 18 2006, 03:38 PM
Post #21
|
|
Unregistered
|
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 02:35 PM
- PavanosBalls
- Feb 18 2006, 02:28 PM
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 02:23 PM
- PavanosBalls
- Feb 18 2006, 02:07 PM
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 02:05 PM
You could say the same thing about McGwire too. really if anybody were to hit 70 it would be him. He was breaking homerun records his rookie season. But having studied steroid and knowing how much it helps your durability, recovery, confidence ect, I can't believe he'd have done what he did without them. especially given the fact that he was injury prone. Without roids Palmeiro was probably a .279, 500+, 1400+ player with a .830something OPS...in those parks
McGwire worked out like a beast though. He put the work in. Yeah, the steroids enhance the work, but I hate the way steroids discount people's hard-work. You actually need to workout harder than ever to get results; you can't just do what you normally do. I saw McGwire hitting the gym like a fiend, eating plates of ribs, pounding protein, swinging the bat. How many juicers have forearms as big as his were?
Believe it or not I agree with you on this part. He likely worked out harder than anyone in baseball, they all did, but they wouldn't have been able to had they been clean. Thats just the law of overload, they would have got hurt. You juiced for a while right? Am I way off on the effects? The reason track is so dirty is that almost all improvement occurs while recovering from workouts, so my knowledge on the subject is geared towards track. I can see Mac in the Hall because I honestly think he would have done most of what he did anyway, but he also may have been one of those injury prone guys that just couldn't get it together long enough to get in. Everything concerning steroids is so missconstrude. Most people don't know that Carl Lewis was likely on way more crap than Ben Johnson the year of all that controversy. The reason I hate it is because it creates all these annoying what if conversations and most people really don't understand them at all, myself included. When people completely discredit Bond's career it drives me crazy. The man's swing is perfect.
I used it briefly, but it wasn't for me. I thought to myself, why am I doing this and stopped. Had I been an athlete needing an edge, maybe that'd have been my reason. I wasn't dillusional when I did pro wrestling; I just wanted to have fun, work a few shows. It wasn't a dream, so I didn't take it for that reason. Yeah, steroids obviously better your performance, but who knows. There's plenty of guys that bust their ass like fiends and don't take steroids. Maybe Mac hits 63 instead of 70. We have no idea. Maybe he had just a little too much muscle. The guy did, as you said, come into the league and hit 49 HRs.
I hope it didn't seem like I was judging, like Canseco said when done correctly they can help a person live to be 100 years old. In sports though, since not everbody is using them, the people who do bother me. This isn't the case, but if for example the 4 guys who finished ahead of me at nationals were juicing it could have cost me something really special since I wasn't doing it. Again, not the case, but there are examples where it is for other guys that aren't using. I know a few guys that use or used it in Highschool. Most of them look like water baloons now because they don't know how to work out or like idiots they just didn't.
Nah, you can judge me. I have no real athletic ability at all, so I have no idea what I'd do in a situation where I was against others.
It gives an unfair edge, but then again, doesn't genetics give an unfair edge? You might have more testosterone levels in your body than the next guy or you might have more muscle fiber or ability to improve. Black guys certainly have performance advantage ssuch as that.
|
|
|
| |
|
HomieYank
|
Feb 18 2006, 03:40 PM
Post #22
|
- Posts:
- 12,064
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #198
- Joined:
- August 18, 2004
|
- Quote:
-
I give you enormous props for that and not discrediting him. Plus, he DOES bust his ass. He's worked out with a trainer for a long-time, which wasn't exactly necessary with the natural skill he has. I respect the f*ck out of guys with talent that combine it with work ethic. I get the vibe Manny Ramirez and Bernie Williams for example didn't bust their ass. Griffey was the biggest example of that. Give Griffey Bond's work ethic and intelligence and wow, who all time would have been better? Nomar to me seems like he works a little too hard, I've always felt bad for him because I think him being injury prone is caused by how hard he works.
|
|
|
| |
|
PavanosBalls
|
Feb 18 2006, 03:45 PM
Post #23
|
|
Unregistered
|
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 02:40 PM
- Quote:
-
I give you enormous props for that and not discrediting him. Plus, he DOES bust his ass. He's worked out with a trainer for a long-time, which wasn't exactly necessary with the natural skill he has. I respect the f*ck out of guys with talent that combine it with work ethic. I get the vibe Manny Ramirez and Bernie Williams for example didn't bust their ass.
Griffey was the biggest example of that. Give Griffey Bond's work ethic and intelligence and wow, who all time would have been better? Nomar to me seems like he works a little too hard, I've always felt bad for him because I think him being injury prone is caused by how hard he works.
Agreed wholeheartedly on Nomar. I've said it in the past too.
On Griffey, yeah, you can say work ethic could partially explain why he's been so injury riddled. He certainly had that God-given ability and that swing, but if he took the game more seriously off the field(I'm assuming like you), he could have been even better and maybe avoided the injuries. Griffey was so quick through the zone though, you wonder how he could have improved. It was amazing.
How about Scott Rolen? He seems to get hurt and play hurt a bunch, and he looks like a beast. Same with Chipper Jones. I wonder if they're too big and strong for their own good.
|
|
|
| |
|
HomieYank
|
Feb 18 2006, 03:49 PM
Post #24
|
- Posts:
- 12,064
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #198
- Joined:
- August 18, 2004
|
- PavanosBalls
- Feb 18 2006, 02:38 PM
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 02:35 PM
- PavanosBalls
- Feb 18 2006, 02:28 PM
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 02:23 PM
- PavanosBalls
- Feb 18 2006, 02:07 PM
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 02:05 PM
You could say the same thing about McGwire too. really if anybody were to hit 70 it would be him. He was breaking homerun records his rookie season. But having studied steroid and knowing how much it helps your durability, recovery, confidence ect, I can't believe he'd have done what he did without them. especially given the fact that he was injury prone. Without roids Palmeiro was probably a .279, 500+, 1400+ player with a .830something OPS...in those parks
McGwire worked out like a beast though. He put the work in. Yeah, the steroids enhance the work, but I hate the way steroids discount people's hard-work. You actually need to workout harder than ever to get results; you can't just do what you normally do. I saw McGwire hitting the gym like a fiend, eating plates of ribs, pounding protein, swinging the bat. How many juicers have forearms as big as his were?
Believe it or not I agree with you on this part. He likely worked out harder than anyone in baseball, they all did, but they wouldn't have been able to had they been clean. Thats just the law of overload, they would have got hurt. You juiced for a while right? Am I way off on the effects? The reason track is so dirty is that almost all improvement occurs while recovering from workouts, so my knowledge on the subject is geared towards track. I can see Mac in the Hall because I honestly think he would have done most of what he did anyway, but he also may have been one of those injury prone guys that just couldn't get it together long enough to get in. Everything concerning steroids is so missconstrude. Most people don't know that Carl Lewis was likely on way more crap than Ben Johnson the year of all that controversy. The reason I hate it is because it creates all these annoying what if conversations and most people really don't understand them at all, myself included. When people completely discredit Bond's career it drives me crazy. The man's swing is perfect.
I used it briefly, but it wasn't for me. I thought to myself, why am I doing this and stopped. Had I been an athlete needing an edge, maybe that'd have been my reason. I wasn't dillusional when I did pro wrestling; I just wanted to have fun, work a few shows. It wasn't a dream, so I didn't take it for that reason. Yeah, steroids obviously better your performance, but who knows. There's plenty of guys that bust their ass like fiends and don't take steroids. Maybe Mac hits 63 instead of 70. We have no idea. Maybe he had just a little too much muscle. The guy did, as you said, come into the league and hit 49 HRs.
I hope it didn't seem like I was judging, like Canseco said when done correctly they can help a person live to be 100 years old. In sports though, since not everbody is using them, the people who do bother me. This isn't the case, but if for example the 4 guys who finished ahead of me at nationals were juicing it could have cost me something really special since I wasn't doing it. Again, not the case, but there are examples where it is for other guys that aren't using. I know a few guys that use or used it in Highschool. Most of them look like water baloons now because they don't know how to work out or like idiots they just didn't.
Nah, you can judge me. I have no real athletic ability at all, so I have no idea what I'd do in a situation where I was against others. It gives an unfair edge, but then again, doesn't genetics give an unfair edge? You might have more testosterone levels in your body than the next guy or you might have more muscle fiber or ability to improve. Black guys certainly have performance advantage ssuch as that.
Thats true, not only that but geography and money also play a big role in how well a person can train and what kind of coaches he or she has access too. Genetics to me are fair though your born with them and do what you can with them. My stance on steroids in sports are they should either be leagel and everyone should be on them, or nobody should.
|
|
|
| |
|
HomieYank
|
Feb 18 2006, 03:55 PM
Post #25
|
- Posts:
- 12,064
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #198
- Joined:
- August 18, 2004
|
- PavanosBalls
- Feb 18 2006, 02:45 PM
- HomieYank
- Feb 18 2006, 02:40 PM
- Quote:
-
I give you enormous props for that and not discrediting him. Plus, he DOES bust his ass. He's worked out with a trainer for a long-time, which wasn't exactly necessary with the natural skill he has. I respect the f*ck out of guys with talent that combine it with work ethic. I get the vibe Manny Ramirez and Bernie Williams for example didn't bust their ass.
Griffey was the biggest example of that. Give Griffey Bond's work ethic and intelligence and wow, who all time would have been better? Nomar to me seems like he works a little too hard, I've always felt bad for him because I think him being injury prone is caused by how hard he works.
Agreed wholeheartedly on Nomar. I've said it in the past too. On Griffey, yeah, you can say work ethic could partially explain why he's been so injury riddled. He certainly had that God-given ability and that swing, but if he took the game more seriously off the field(I'm assuming like you), he could have been even better and maybe avoided the injuries. Griffey was so quick through the zone though, you wonder how he could have improved. It was amazing. How about Scott Rolen? He seems to get hurt and play hurt a bunch, and he looks like a beast. Same with Chipper Jones. I wonder if they're too big and strong for their own good.
I hated how Rolen was portrayed when that whole Phillies thing was happening. He seems to me like one of the most genuinly competetive and hard working guys in the game, and he plays the game "the way it should be played". He's old school, i've always been a big fan.
Chipper, eh. If he could play third well despite his size i'd like him more.
|
|
|
| |
|
PavanosBalls
|
Feb 18 2006, 04:34 PM
Post #26
|
|
Unregistered
|
Chipper's one of the best switch-hitters in the history of the game though. Hard-working. Tall and athletic. Career OPS is like .950. I like him a lot as a player. Just wish he could kick that injury proneness that he's gotten lately.
|
|
|
| |
|
PavanosBalls
|
Feb 18 2006, 04:57 PM
Post #27
|
|
Unregistered
|
Another thing special about Chipper, since I'm looking over some old-timers stats. He is basically equal from both sides of the plate. That is tremendous to be that well versed from both sides, and basically eliminate matchup disadvantages.
sh*t, he'll already be 34 years old. His best years could be behind him. Shame
|
|
|
| |
|
The Yankee Faithful
|
Feb 18 2006, 06:15 PM
Post #28
|
- Posts:
- 464
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #333
- Joined:
- February 6, 2005
|
K thnx bye Sosa
|
|
|
| |
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
|