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mussina
Topic Started: Aug 24 2005, 07:46 PM (401 Views)
rsj23terp

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RicFlair4Life
Aug 26 2005, 11:35 AM
Glavine needs 28 wins - he's been pitching great of late by the way - He's a lock whether he gets it or not - but he will and when he does, he will be one of the few to ever Win 300 in the  ERA of the 5 man rotation ...if Don Sutton is in - Tommy G is in....simple as that - this is a losing argument fellas.

I never said he wasn't in, I said he was borderline in comparison to Mussina's "no f*cking chance" status.

You can stop trying to make it an argument, i'm not biting.

But i'll bet you 50 bucks Glavine doesn't get 300 wins.
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VICTORious
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glavine has added a curveball and he will pitch at least 2 more years

meaning he doesnt need more then 14 wins in back to back seasons at the worst.

Chances are he could also pitch a third year.

I mean he is a soft tosser.

If i was a betting man i would bet he does. it.
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cmnyy
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Moose is no HOFer. He's never even been the best pitcher in his own league, let alone all of baseball, never won 20 games, never won a World Series, never won a Cy Young, and has never been particularly dominant for any extended period of time.

He goes down in that group of pitchers that were very effective for their entire careers but will end up with between 230 and 250 wins but I wouldn't even consider him having an outside shot to get in the Hall.


I'm not so sure about that Terps. He already has 223 wins. He has a career 3.63 ERA, pitching in the AL, with alot of years in that bandbox and the other years in a non-righty friendly park. And I could easily see him pitching for a few more years (hopefully with us). He might have a very legit shot.


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rsj23terp

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Mr. Sunshine
Aug 26 2005, 11:41 AM
glavine has added a curveball and he will pitch at least 2 more years

meaning he doesnt need more then 14 wins in back to back seasons at the worst.

Chances are he could also pitch a third year.

I mean he is a soft tosser.

If i was a betting man i would bet he does. it.

9.

11.

10.

Those are Glavine's win totals for the last three seasons. Lets say he wins 2 more games this year, hell, lets say he wins 3 more. That gives him 13 for the year and 275 for his career.

I'll say this, if he wants to hang around for 3 more years, he could do it, but it would really make me think less of him to hang around for an outside chance at 300 wins when he's CLEARLY not even close to the pitcher he was even 4 years ago.
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VICTORious
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he he wins 3 more this year he needs the same amount next year and hte year after that. Its not like he is trying to win 25 back to back.


those win totals are without the curveball and an incompetant met offense. Last year he shouldve had 18 to 20 wins, he was getting clemenseque support. Offense is better now.
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rsj23terp

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cmnyy
Aug 26 2005, 11:42 AM
Quote:
 
Moose is no HOFer. He's never even been the best pitcher in his own league, let alone all of baseball, never won 20 games, never won a World Series, never won a Cy Young, and has never been particularly dominant for any extended period of time.

He goes down in that group of pitchers that were very effective for their entire careers but will end up with between 230 and 250 wins but I wouldn't even consider him having an outside shot to get in the Hall.


I'm not so sure about that Terps. He already has 223 wins. He has a career 3.63 ERA, pitching in the AL, with alot of years in that bandbox and the other years in a non-righty friendly park. And I could easily see him pitching for a few more years (hopefully with us). He might have a very legit shot.

Fine, lets put everyone in. I'm not saying Moose hasn't had a great career, but in my opinion the HOF is for the absolute best. At what point in his career has Moose been the absolute best in his own league?

That would be "never." He's never carried a team on his back to any great accomplishment, never been a "must see" pitcher, and never done anything extraordinary in his career.

"Coming close" to a perfect game doesn't count in my opinion, lots of guys have come close. I just don't think the HOF is a place where guys who hang around and play on VERY good teams and accumulate wins belong. Moose left Baltimore as they were falling apart but they were a legit contender for at least 4 years of his career, then came to the Yankees where they won 4 of 5 World Series before he arrived. Don't give me "tough division" when he's played on two of the teams that made it tough during his career.

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KOCUR

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Steinbrenner will sign Glavine just so he gets 300 in Pinstripes....
25 Wins is attainable for him
I'm not making this an arugument - I agree w/ you Mussina has NO chance...NONE.
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cmnyy
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You're right Terps - he has never been the best. But he has been very good on a very consistent basis. And the HOF seems to favor long term consistence over dominance.

Personally, I'm not sure I agree with that policy either. You watched alot of Winfield's career and all of Mattingly's, and who was the better player? It really isn't even close in my mind. Mattingly was the best in the game for a few years, while Winfield never was. Yet who's in, and who has no shot?

And as I said earlier, if we're going to raise the standards for hitters in today's day and age, shouldn't the opposite hold true for pitchers? Shouldn't the 300 win bar now be 250 wins, if not even less?

BTW - HOF convos are always interesting, aren't they? One of the things that makes baseball the greatest game (blow me Strider ;) :P :laugh: ).



:peace:


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rsj23terp

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RicFlair4Life
Aug 26 2005, 11:57 AM
Steinbrenner will sign Glavine just so he gets 300 in Pinstripes....
25 Wins is attainable for him
I'm not making this an arugument - I agree w/ you Mussina has NO chance...NONE.

I'm certain 25 wins is attainable. I'm saying I don't think he'll get it, though I think that Glavine will make the Hall despite my objections.

I like to think the Hall is for guys who you would tell your kids and grandkids about. Pedro, Rocket and Unit are all certainly on that list, and Maddux is too for the simple fact that he did it all without much raw athleticism or dominating "stuff."

I can't even imagine sitting down and saying, "Son, you should have seen Tom Glavine throw the ball 5 inches off the outside corner for his entire career and get strike calls. What a force."

That's the frustrating part, he didn't throw a strike for 10 YEARS!!! He'll get in, but i'm going to go to his induction with a giant poster that says "If Ques-Tec existed in 1993, your career would have been 3 years long."
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cmnyy
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RicFlair4Life
Aug 26 2005, 11:57 AM

I'm not making this an arugument - I agree w/ you Mussina has NO chance...NONE.



No, I'm making the argument. SO BLOW IT OUT YOUR ASSPIPE!


:laugh:


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rsj23terp

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cmnyy
Aug 26 2005, 12:07 PM
BTW - HOF convos are always interesting, aren't they? One of the things that makes baseball the greatest game (blow me Strider :love: ).

:peace:

One of my favorite things about baseball is the HOF discussions.

I don't think there should be a statistical watermark for HOF entry. If you want to use a number as a guideline, that's fine by me, but a number alone shouldn't not guarantee you entry into the Hall. That goes towards my objection -- even before steroids -- for Palmeiro as an HOFer.

There is something to be said for hanging around and being productive and consistent long enough to put up those numbers, but how have those numbers influenced the era in which you played? Were you the face of that era or did you hang in the background and accumulate your stats?

I think 250 wins is a good guideline for pitchers these days, but i'll give you a hypothetical:

Moose finishes with 265 wins but never wins a WS or Cy Young. Glavine retires after this year with 275 and his full trophy case. Both got past the "guideline" of 250 wins.

If you had to pick one, obviously you'd pick Glavine. And that's my point, there is no rule that says because you had a long career and won a lot of games you should get entry to the Hall. When Moose goes out there and pitches a shutout in the clinching game of the World Series, then we can talk.

By the way, i'm talking myself into Glavine more and more here.
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donuts

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Mussina is a good pitcher who the Yankees, fans; and prior to this, the media has made out to be a great pitcher. He most certainly is not. He is very good and has his moments. He is also an excellent fielder. He was and never will be an Ace of any staff let alone a Hall of Famer.
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BronxBomber
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donuts
Aug 26 2005, 02:36 PM
Mussina is a good pitcher who the Yankees, fans; and prior to this, the media has made out to be a great pitcher. He most certainly is not. He is very good and has his moments. He is also an excellent fielder. He was and never will be an Ace of any staff let alone a Hall of Famer.

Very true and well put donuts :yes:
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rsj23terp

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donuts
Aug 26 2005, 03:36 PM
Mussina is a good pitcher who the Yankees, fans; and prior to this, the media has made out to be a great pitcher. He most certainly is not. He is very good and has his moments. He is also an excellent fielder. He was and never will be an Ace of any staff let alone a Hall of Famer.

Nicely said, rook.
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PavanosBalls
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ok. ill waiver on my mussina opinion, if for nothing else he has wasted a bit of his talent. he could have been better. career wise, hes a really good pitcher. not a hall of famer. i was convinced enough on mussina. i will never buy glavine as a hall of famer.
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Mattingly23
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canobaseball
Aug 26 2005, 06:59 PM
i will never buy glavine as a hall of famer.

You have over 60 current big leaguers going into the Hall, which would be by far a record amount for one era, but Glavine isn't one of them?
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amit
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donuts
Aug 26 2005, 10:36 PM
Mussina is a good pitcher who the Yankees, fans; and prior to this, the media has made out to be a great pitcher. He most certainly is not. He is very good and has his moments. He is also an excellent fielder. He was and never will be an Ace of any staff let alone a Hall of Famer.

I actually think Moose is underrated by most Yankee fans.
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VICTORious
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he was overrated a few years in his first two years as a yankee.

when they had the moose crap stewing all over the city.

He is rated just fine now.
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amit
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If you look at this board you'd think he's Sterling Hitchcock.
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Mattingly23
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amit
Aug 27 2005, 01:17 AM
donuts
Aug 26 2005, 10:36 PM
Mussina is a good pitcher who the Yankees, fans; and prior to this, the media has made out to be a great pitcher.  He most certainly is not.  He is very good and has his moments.  He is also an excellent fielder.  He was and never will be an Ace of any staff let alone a Hall of Famer.

I actually think Moose is underrated by most Yankee fans.

Exactly. One 3 people, maybe 4, see it. Me, you, Terp, and I think MM. Does MM rip on him? I'm not sure on that one. Cano supports his career, so he could get thrown in too. Everyone else treats him like Hitchcock, as Amit said.

Quote:
 
he was overrated a few years in his first two years as a yankee.


Moose was great his first year here.
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VICTORious
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he was great, but the fans were acting like he had one of the greatest pitching years ever.

Did he get his era below 3?
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Mattingly23
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Mr. Sunshine
Aug 27 2005, 01:30 AM
he was great, but the fans were acting like he had one of the greatest pitching years ever.

Did he get his era below 3?

3.15. He was 17-11, but should have won upwards of 23 games with run support. They never scored for him in 2001.
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KOCUR

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Holy Shet listen to FruitAss parade goin on in here....

23 games He shoulda won???

- Here's the bottomline on Mussina -

He has never embraced NYC - He has ZERO relationship with the fans - NONE - He gives nothing - He is a bad clubhouse guy in the sense he's there for HIMSELF and to do a JOB ...He's here b/c we grossly outbid Baltimore....and he still waited out as long as he could.....

- He's been beaten badly in big spots....he implodes....He's a perfectionist who has trouble adapting ..when his stuff is off...IT"S OFF....When the ump Fecks him...Him loses it...then gets hit hard....

Not a likable guy....very rarely rarely mentioned by fans when talking about the club....Never won 20 Games - not overpowering....

He's a 3rd Starter paid like a Superstar $88 mill was a disgrace...Pedro never even got that or Clemens...
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rsj23terp

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Mattingly23
Aug 26 2005, 07:13 PM
canobaseball
Aug 26 2005, 06:59 PM
i will never buy glavine as a hall of famer.

You have over 60 current big leaguers going into the Hall, which would be by far a record amount for one era, but Glavine isn't one of them?

Glavine is no Jake Peavy.
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15always
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donuts
Aug 26 2005, 03:36 PM
Mussina is a good pitcher who the Yankees, fans; and prior to this, the media has made out to be a great pitcher.  He most certainly is not.  He is very good and has his moments.  He is also an excellent fielder.  He was and never will be an Ace of any staff let alone a Hall of Famer.

I agree with that.

Mussina lets too many things distract him. He takes the creature of habit thing way too far ~ that I think is what stops him from being a great pitcher because at times he does show signs of being a great pitcher. The other times ~ he's just aggravating as all hell to watch because you know how much better he can be.
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Strider
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15always
Aug 27 2005, 10:42 AM
donuts
Aug 26 2005, 03:36 PM
Mussina is a good pitcher who the Yankees, fans; and prior to this, the media has made out to be a great pitcher.  He most certainly is not.  He is very good and has his moments.  He is also an excellent fielder.  He was and never will be an Ace of any staff let alone a Hall of Famer.

I agree with that.

Mussina lets too many things distract him. He takes the creature of habit thing way too far ~ that I think is what stops him from being a great pitcher because at times he does show signs of being a great pitcher. The other times ~ he's just aggravating as all hell to watch because you know how much better he can be.

I KNEW I'd see you in this thread eventually, 15. Your hatred for Mussina is strong.

But most of us are with ya. He's 10x the lady that you are. :yes:
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15always
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Strider
Aug 27 2005, 01:40 PM
15always
Aug 27 2005, 10:42 AM
donuts
Aug 26 2005, 03:36 PM
Mussina is a good pitcher who the Yankees, fans; and prior to this, the media has made out to be a great pitcher.  He most certainly is not.  He is very good and has his moments.  He is also an excellent fielder.  He was and never will be an Ace of any staff let alone a Hall of Famer.

I agree with that.

Mussina lets too many things distract him. He takes the creature of habit thing way too far ~ that I think is what stops him from being a great pitcher because at times he does show signs of being a great pitcher. The other times ~ he's just aggravating as all hell to watch because you know how much better he can be.

I KNEW I'd see you in this thread eventually, 15. Your hatred for Mussina is strong.

But most of us are with ya. He's 10x the lady that you are. :yes:

strider ~ you know I don't hate him.... I do however want to throw the tv out the window at times when I'm watching him.
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Strider
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15always
Aug 27 2005, 03:35 PM
Strider
Aug 27 2005, 01:40 PM
15always
Aug 27 2005, 10:42 AM
donuts
Aug 26 2005, 03:36 PM
Mussina is a good pitcher who the Yankees, fans; and prior to this, the media has made out to be a great pitcher.  He most certainly is not.  He is very good and has his moments.  He is also an excellent fielder.  He was and never will be an Ace of any staff let alone a Hall of Famer.

I agree with that.

Mussina lets too many things distract him. He takes the creature of habit thing way too far ~ that I think is what stops him from being a great pitcher because at times he does show signs of being a great pitcher. The other times ~ he's just aggravating as all hell to watch because you know how much better he can be.

I KNEW I'd see you in this thread eventually, 15. Your hatred for Mussina is strong.

But most of us are with ya. He's 10x the lady that you are. :yes:

strider ~ you know I don't hate him.... I do however want to throw the tv out the window at times when I'm watching him.

TV out the window = hate. You would stab him in the eye with a crochet needle if you got the chance. You know it........you know it!



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cmnyy
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Strider
Aug 27 2005, 01:40 PM


But most of us are with ya. He's 10x the lady that you are. :yes:



I doubt that. :love: :love: :love:





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Strider
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cmnyy
Aug 27 2005, 06:16 PM
Strider
Aug 27 2005, 01:40 PM


But most of us are with ya. He's 10x the lady that you are. :yes:



I doubt that. :love: :love: :love:

Not saying that 15a isn't a wonderful lady, just that Mussina is a sexy bitch who plays violin and does ballet.
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