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Get me a bat for the bench
Topic Started: Aug 24 2005, 01:36 PM (305 Views)
cmnyy
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Mantlemurcer
Aug 25 2005, 10:53 AM
cmnyy
Aug 25 2005, 10:36 AM
Mattingly23
Aug 25 2005, 10:17 AM
I agree with cmnyy, but doubt Wagner would want to setup.  I could see the Mets tossing a lot of money his way.  I also read Philly is now interested in keeping him.


I also forgot LaTroy Hawkins, Kyle Farnsworth and BJ Ryan. Farnsworth and Ryan will certainly get opportunities to close, but worth looking into anyway. Personally, I have a feeling that Hawkins could be a low $$$ bargain, but that's just guessing.

:please: No Latroy Hawkins



Hey MM...


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Mattingly23
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I'm with MM on Hawkins. I used to like him, but he's clearly a choke artist at this point.
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Mantlemurcer
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cmnyy
Aug 25 2005, 10:56 AM
Mantlemurcer
Aug 25 2005, 10:53 AM
cmnyy
Aug 25 2005, 10:36 AM
Mattingly23
Aug 25 2005, 10:17 AM
I agree with cmnyy, but doubt Wagner would want to setup.  I could see the Mets tossing a lot of money his way.  I also read Philly is now interested in keeping him.


I also forgot LaTroy Hawkins, Kyle Farnsworth and BJ Ryan. Farnsworth and Ryan will certainly get opportunities to close, but worth looking into anyway. Personally, I have a feeling that Hawkins could be a low $$$ bargain, but that's just guessing.

:please: No Latroy Hawkins



Hey MM...

:unsure:
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cmnyy
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Mantlemurcer
Aug 25 2005, 10:57 AM
cmnyy
Aug 25 2005, 10:56 AM
Mantlemurcer
Aug 25 2005, 10:53 AM
cmnyy
Aug 25 2005, 10:36 AM
Mattingly23
Aug 25 2005, 10:17 AM
I agree with cmnyy, but doubt Wagner would want to setup.  I could see the Mets tossing a lot of money his way.  I also read Philly is now interested in keeping him.


I also forgot LaTroy Hawkins, Kyle Farnsworth and BJ Ryan. Farnsworth and Ryan will certainly get opportunities to close, but worth looking into anyway. Personally, I have a feeling that Hawkins could be a low $$$ bargain, but that's just guessing.

:please: No Latroy Hawkins



Hey MM...

:unsure:



[size=14]Blow Me! [/size]


;) :laugh:


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Mantlemurcer
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CM, I'm surprised you don't want Witasick :P


Guardado will probably be come free...I don't see the M's picking up the option, but who knows. :think:
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cmnyy
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Mattingly23
Aug 25 2005, 10:57 AM
I'm with MM on Hawkins. I used to like him, but he's clearly a choke artist at this point.



BTW Matt23 - I forgot your present:

Posted Image


:laugh: :peace:



Seriously, what if we could get him for a 1 year, 1-2 million $ deal? I think he'd be well worth that risk.






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PavanosBalls
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Mantlemurcer
Aug 25 2005, 09:53 AM
cmnyy
Aug 25 2005, 10:36 AM
Mattingly23
Aug 25 2005, 10:17 AM
I agree with cmnyy, but doubt Wagner would want to setup.  I could see the Mets tossing a lot of money his way.  I also read Philly is now interested in keeping him.


I also forgot LaTroy Hawkins, Kyle Farnsworth and BJ Ryan. Farnsworth and Ryan will certainly get opportunities to close, but worth looking into anyway. Personally, I have a feeling that Hawkins could be a low $$$ bargain, but that's just guessing.

:please: No Latroy Hawkins

i understand why you wouldnt want hawkins; hes definitely not a reliable pitcher in the clutch. however, what is true about hawkins is hes got as good stuff as gordon. i would gladly take him and gordon as a pair of setup men than what we currently have. hell come through more times than not. if the money is fair, you sign them both. i honestly doubt bj ryan would setup, but id give him a shot. i honestly think theres no chance on wagner. there are a ton of good teams that could be an elite closer away from helping them in the post-season.
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Mattingly23
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I'll check what that pic is from home later. I block them when I am at work because of people like you!

At that price I'd be ok with him as the last guy in the pen. I wouldn't want him in a primary setup role though. What I'd like is a crew of guys who can be trusted to set up Mo, but without set roles in the 7th and 8th. I want there to be options everyday and not have to worry about things like, "Oh Gordon is burning when he pees, so Sturtze has to move up to the 8th inning role, and who knows who will take the 7th inning role from him." I liked back in the day when Nelson or Stanton could come in, but it wasn't a set 7th or 8th inning guy. So I want to stockpile guys. Settle CF, but besides that, worry most about a deep pen. Go after all of the free guys, hoping to sign at least 2, maybe 3, plus bring Gordon back. The starters might pretty much be the same, but a year older, so it is key to have a deep pen be able to pick up the slack and not get burnt out.
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PavanosBalls
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Mattingly23
Aug 25 2005, 10:05 AM
I'll check what that pic is from home later.  I block them when I am at work because of people like you!

At that price I'd be ok with him as the last guy in the pen.  I wouldn't want him in a primary setup role though.  What I'd like is a crew of guys who can be trusted to set up Mo, but without set roles in the 7th and 8th.  I want there to be options everyday and not have to worry about things like, "Oh Gordon is burning when he pees, so Sturtze has to move up to the 8th inning role, and who knows who will take the 7th inning role from him."  I liked back in the day when Nelson or Stanton could come in, but it wasn't a set 7th or 8th inning guy.  So I want to stockpile guys.  Settle CF, but besides that, worry most about a deep pen.  Go after all of the free guys, hoping to sign at least 2, maybe 3, plus bring Gordon back.  The starters might pretty much be the same, but a year older, so it is key to have a deep pen be able to pick up the slack and not get burnt out.

honestly, i can argue with any of the main guys people want for the pen that they are no guarantee. billy wagner was not reliable in a tight spot in houston(chipper jones granny comes to mind) and has had no chance in phillie to save anything meaningful. bj ryan routinely gives up games to david ortiz. i think we all know of some of urbina's blunders. his hanging change to sammy sosa still hasnt landed. kyle farnsworth gave up some big hits in the 2003 playoffs and has never been known as reliable. latroy hawkins was at least was an elite setup man with the twins. i think hes just as trustable as the rest.
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Mattingly23
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I agree Wagner wouldn't sign to setup, but he's way less of a choke artist than Hawkins. Everyone gives up a HR or grand slam once in awhile. BJ Ryan has given up some big hits this at times this year, but as a setup guy, he would instantly go back to being one of the top 3, if not the best, lefty setup men in baseball.
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cmnyy
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Mattingly23
Aug 25 2005, 11:05 AM
I'll check what that pic is from home later. I block them when I am at work because of people like you!



Smart move.


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So I want to stockpile guys.



Me too. It seems tougher and tougher to find consistant bullpen fu<kers (from year to year) these days. So take a shot on tons of guys, like Hawkins.







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Mattingly23
Aug 25 2005, 11:17 PM
I agree with cmnyy, but doubt Wagner would want to setup. I could see the Mets tossing a lot of money his way. I also read Philly is now interested in keeping him.

They are about 8 million away from what he wants to stay in Philadelphia.
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canobaseball
Aug 25 2005, 10:42 AM
as for the pen, there are a few solid options out there, in particular closers that wed love for setup. bj ryan, kyle farnsworth, billy wagner, ugeth urbina. im convinced wagners ego is too big to setup. afterall, this guy did claim he was insulted getting offered 9 million dollars a year to close for houston. urbina is one of those guys that im not quite sure whether he accepted the setup role or it was just forced on him. he became one briefly in florida via trade after closing in texas, but took over that job. he went to detroit and closed, but after his mom was kidnapped and the organization doubted his return, they signed percival to close. getting traded to phillie basically returned his chance at any saves this year. he might still want to close though. it wasnt his choice, any of the situations he was in. im not so sure id like him. i mean, hes good, but the guys velocity has dipped and hes no longer the montreal urbina that we coveted. he might be worth too much trouble, money wise, to warrant a guy like him in our pen. i could see him turning into quantrill. i think the best hope is keeping gordon and hoping to lure a bj ryan or like cm is saying, guys like latroy hawkins into a setup role with gordon. id also move chacon into sturtze's role.


:please: [size=7]NO FECKING WAY![/size] :no:

Snoop is our best starter! :rock:
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cmnyy
Aug 25 2005, 10:47 AM
Steven Goldman has a good list of FA's in this weeks PINSTRIPED BIBLE.



Quote:
 


RELIEVERS
Octavio Dotel, Kyle Farnsworth, Tom Gordon, Eddie Guardado (Mutal Option), LaTroy Hawkins, Roberto Hernandez, Trevor Hoffman, Bob Howry, Todd Jones, Braden Looper (Team Option), Jose Mesa (Team Option), Jim Mecir, Felix Rodriguez, B.J. Ryan, Julian Tavarez, Mike Timlin, Ugueth Urbina, Billy Wagner, Bob Wickman, Jay Witasick.


[size=14]What about signing Timlin[/size] ?

Gordon could pitch the 6th, Timlin pitch the 7th, make RJ :shocked: the flamethrowing setup guy and Mo closes. Then you could have Sturtze, Mendoza or DePaula as middle relief and Small in the long reliever/spot starter spot. Keep Proctor at Columbus for insurance.

This gives us a pretty young starting staff, with Small, Proctor or RJ ready to jump in when needed:

Moose
Chacon
Wang
Wright
Pavano

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Mattingly23
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The day the Yankees have a $16 million setup man is the day I will call for a salary cap, as against one as I am.
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cmnyy
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Mattingly23
Aug 25 2005, 04:50 PM
The day the Yankees have a $16 million setup man is the day I will call for a salary cap, as against one as I am.



They'll give Kevin Brown a shot at it this year (15 mill though).

I wouldn't be surprised to see Johnson out there eventually to be honest with you. Wherever he can help most is what you have to do.




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Mattingly23
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I don't ever want to see Kevin Brown in uniform on the bench as a Yankee, let alone on the mound. Also doing it for a couple of weeks is different than giving someone the job for a full season or two. Brown worked out of the pen coming back from his injuries with LA too, but it was never his set role.
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cmnyy
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Also doing it for a couple of weeks is different than giving someone the job for a full season or two.


Good point.


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Strider
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YankeeBaseball
Aug 25 2005, 04:49 PM
cmnyy
Aug 25 2005, 10:47 AM
Steven Goldman has a good list of FA's in this weeks PINSTRIPED BIBLE.



Quote:
 


RELIEVERS
Octavio Dotel, Kyle Farnsworth, Tom Gordon, Eddie Guardado (Mutal Option), LaTroy Hawkins, Roberto Hernandez, Trevor Hoffman, Bob Howry, Todd Jones, Braden Looper (Team Option), Jose Mesa (Team Option), Jim Mecir, Felix Rodriguez, B.J. Ryan, Julian Tavarez, Mike Timlin, Ugueth Urbina, Billy Wagner, Bob Wickman, Jay Witasick.


[size=14]What about signing Timlin[/size] ?

Gordon could pitch the 6th, Timlin pitch the 7th, make RJ :shocked: the flamethrowing setup guy and Mo closes. Then you could have Sturtze, Mendoza or DePaula as middle relief and Small in the long reliever/spot starter spot. Keep Proctor at Columbus for insurance.

This gives us a pretty young starting staff, with Small, Proctor or RJ ready to jump in when needed:

Moose
Chacon
Wang
Wright
Pavano

I wouldn't trust that rotation to bring me cup of coffee. Mussina, with his up & down-ness and low 4s ERA is not the ace of a championship team. Hell, Mussina a couple years ago when he was better wasn't an ace. We've all got our Chacon boners, but we have to chill with that. Six good starts doesn't make one a #2 starter on a team that should challenge for the championship. I don't want him being any more than a 4th. Wang wasn't that good when he was pitching. We all loved what he was doing, but let's be honest. Its not a big enough sampling and like Chacon, you don't wanna have to rely on him to be more than a 4th starter. Plus, he'll be coming off a shoulder injury that made him miss most of the previous season. Wright is like an ugly bitch after a Jenny Jones makeover. He's looking good right now, but based on history, you know its not gonna last. His makeup will wash off, the hairstyle will change, that corset and girdle won't be holding back his gut, he won't smell like peaches and almond, and his skin won't glow. No way it keeps up. He'll go back to being Jaret Wright. And its only been 2 starts. Chances are, he'll start sucking again before this year is done. Pavano is the epitome of a soft lesbian (not just in performance, but off-field behavior) and I want him off this team, by any means necessary. I'm getting in the ass of anyone who says, "He did well in the playoffs in 2003. It shows that he can be a big game pitcher." Also, that rotation is all righty. Not that its a big deal, but people usually try to avoid that. Its cool if you've got 5 good-great right-handers, but we don't.

Ain't no way in a cow's ass hole and Betty Sue's pet goat's small intestines....will Randy Johnson become a setup man. (1) He won't want to do it. (2) The Yankees won't want him to do it. (3) He's been a starter his entire career and he's someone that likes to throw a lot to get going. As an 8th inning man, he wouldn't have that chance. He'd have to warm up quick. There's the get up, sit down, get up again aspect of relieving. (4) If we don't trust him the first 7 innings of the game, there's no way we should have confidence in him for the 8th in a tight game. (5) A team in the Yankees position shouldn't be experimenting like this with a 42 year old with bad knees and back. It would have the potential (probable) of blowing up in their faces. (6) If Randy Johnson was still a flamethrower, he wouldn't be the big soft f@g he is.

A bullpen of Sturtze, Small, DePaula, and Mendoza - I'd have even less confidence in that one than I do our current pen. DePaula struggled when he was up here. And didn't he have arm problems? Sturtze will be 35 and based on this season, he's shown that he's not someone you should trust. Since leaving here, Mendoza has sucked, gotten injured, sucked some more, and gotten injured again. Small is cool, for what he is. He's the new Tanyon. We give him credit because of how much he's sucked before and its a good story, but you shouldn't have confidence in him. There's a reason he's 33 and has never done anything.

Timlin is pushing 40 and I'd prefer Farnsworth and some other guys I've said before, but I wouldn't mind getting him as a plan B or C.
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PavanosBalls
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ok, back to the pen, since my 6 hour departure. i would say that we should all get wagner out of our heads, since that guy is an elite closer. theres just too much of a market for that kind of guy. the reason the yankees were able to get "closers" like steve karsay and tom gordon to setup here was because neither were regarded as very good closers. atlanta didnt even keep karsay in the closing job at the end of his season there and the white sox never committed to a closer. the offers they would have gotten to close would have been from low to mid level teams. a guy like wagner could sign anywhere he wants to close if there isnt a closer there.

as far as urbina. ya know something. i just dont buy that this guy is going to setup willingly. as i said, all the situations where he set up where not on his own accord, but basically by force. he still has the stats to be wanted out there, and dare i say, a contending team, ala the cubs, white sox, might pursue him if they dont get wagner

bj ryan seems like the type of guy that would remain a closer. it seems just his style to want to be the last option. his strikeout numbers are absolutely insane, and hed be a pleasure to have in our pen, but we gotta be realistic. orioles have dough. if they decide they dont want billy wagner, which i dont think they would anyways, just throw a bucket of money at ryan, which they have, especially with the tv deal they got with the nationals.

kyle farnsworth. i get the sneaking suspicion this guy will be coveted more than hes worth. some people around here know my opinion on him. hes not the type of guy you want with the spotlight on him in new york. this guy overthrows and makes some of his pitches straight as an arrow. id love him going to battle with me during a brawl, but im not sure you want to rely on him.

now, whether ive wrongly written off these guys above as options for next years pen, thats one thing, but i do think the team needs to concentrate on guys like gordon, timlin, and hawkins. all have post-season experience and have been very successful in a setup role in the al.

if i had my way. id have a pen next year similar to this

chacon
timlin/hawkins
gordon/hawkins
rivera
a capable left-hander that does better against lefties
and maybe if theres no one worthwhile in free agency, you allow this spot for a youngster or veteran
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PavanosBalls
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i might add that i think the good part of latroy hawkins is the fact teams will back away from him, at least the teams in need of a closer, since he demonstrated he cannot handle that role. but a role he clearly can handle is setup and thats what i think he'll get paid to do. there will be a little bidding war based on his favor as a middle reliever, but teams arent going to go nuts to pay a setup man. thats where the yankees have an advantage. they can give him a mil or two more if necessary
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