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Give it up for JORGE!
Topic Started: Jun 12 2005, 05:10 PM (247 Views)
Diehardfantic

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Mattingly23
Jun 14 2005, 02:02 PM
Diehardfantic
Jun 14 2005, 03:00 PM
To be fair, Giant fans must admit that Simms couldn't hold a candle to Joe Montana.

Montana is a legend. Nobody would argue Simms was better than him.

You got us in 91 though. That loss broke my heart. I still pray that Bahr's Field Goal goes wide. We'd have killed the Bills and steamrolled to that Super Bowl win.
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rsj23terp

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Diehardfantic
Jun 14 2005, 03:00 PM
To be fair, Giant fans must admit that Simms couldn't hold a candle to Joe Montana.

Of course not. Montana was the ultimate. Three Super Bowl MVP's (should have been four, SOMEBODY had to throw the ball to Rice.)

Simms isn't a legend like Montana is, but in the class of 80's NFL quarterbacks he's definitely in the top 10%.
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Mattingly23
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Diehardfantic
Jun 14 2005, 03:03 PM

You got us in 91 though. That loss broke my heart. I still pray that Bahr's Field Goal goes wide. We'd have killed the Bills and steamrolled to that Super Bowl win.

I taped that game. I need to dig it out of my bedroom closet the next time I am at my parents' house. Nothing like scoring all of your points on Matt Bahr field goals.

Simms was hurt though. He led the Giants to a 10-0 record, then got hurt in the Bills game. Kelly actually got hurt too, but he was back in the place of Reich by the playoffs. Thanks to having a legit backup in Hostetler, the Giants' season wasn't crushed by Simms' injury.
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Diehardfantic

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Hostetler was a Roethlisberger like fill in, in the fact that the offense was run real conservatively, even moreso than when Simms was under center, and he was able to win games due to defense, a good rushing attack, and some timely passes. The fact that Handley picked him to start over Simms the following season was a joke though.

That'd have been like Steve Bono being used over Joe Montana or Steve Young. Certainly a capable quarterback, but not in the league of the starter.
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rsj23terp

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Mattingly23
Jun 14 2005, 03:07 PM
Diehardfantic
Jun 14 2005, 03:03 PM

You got us in 91 though. That loss broke my heart. I still pray that Bahr's Field Goal goes wide. We'd have killed the Bills and steamrolled to that Super Bowl win.

I taped that game. I need to dig it out of my bedroom closet the next time I am at my parents' house. Nothing like scoring all of your points on Matt Bahr field goals.

Simms was hurt though. He led the Giants to a 10-0 record, then got hurt in the Bills game. Kelly actually got hurt too, but he was back in the place of Reich by the playoffs. Thanks to having a legit backup in Hostetler, the Giants' season wasn't crushed by Simms' injury.

To be fair, if Maurice Carthon's hands weren't made of stone the Giants would have scored 1 TD that day.

If Simms was the Giants QB through the season, they would have beaten the Bills by at least 10.

A lot of people forget that when Simms got hurt, he had thrown 15 TD's against only 4 INT's that year and was on his way to his best season.
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Strider
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Bleedrngrblue
Jun 14 2005, 08:51 AM
Strider
Jun 14 2005, 07:34 AM
And I'll be hating on the .230 loser too. Don't think I'll start appreciating it more because its gone and I'm seeing worse crap. Its the same thing I think when Giants fans say they liked Kerry Collins because the pieces of sh*t that preceded him sucked worse. All that means to me is they ALL sucked. If Eli throws 30 interceptions this season, I'll still hate Collins as much as I do now.

btw - Simms is overrated. He was nothing more than alright QB. And before you say it, I'll get it out: 22/25 with 3 TDs in the Super Bowl.....Nothing more than an alright QB.

Don't you agree he was a good leader on the field for that team as well? I think Phil Simms was much more than alright, my friend. Don't forget he played 8 games a year in a wind tunnell known as Giants stadium! No qb has been able to light it up unbelievably on a regular basis there. Its just not a good stadium to light it up offensively. ........I get your point though.....unless it was Bench, or Yogi himself behind the plate for us, you'd have a problem with it!

Tarkenton and Tittle. But that was before Giants Stadium. But I attribute it more to the fact that this team has just never had a great QB since Tarkenton. We can't blame it all on the wind.

I'm not asking for the greatest catchers of all-time. Come on now. But I would take I-Rod. :D

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Not entirely true. When the Giants had to throw the ball before they got Morris, Simms threw for over 4,000 yards in 1984.


With 22 touchdowns and 18 interceptions and he completed 53% of his passes that season. Yard totals don't mean much to me. Namath threw for 4,000 in '67 but it came with 28 interceptions and a low completion percentage. Montana never threw for 4,000 but he piled up the TDs and had a great TD/INT ratio.

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Whatever. You never saw him play. He's not overrated. He's not in the Hall of Fame or anything. The Giants didn't have a big-time passing attack under Parcells. They pounded the ball with Morris and OJ.


I understand that Parcells' system is smashmouth. Pound the ball and tell the QB don't f*ck anything up. So you'd expect not a lot of yards or touchdowns. Be efficient and limit the chances so the you limit the mistakes - like Roethlisberger. But his TD/INT ratios weren't good and completion percentages before 1990 were all low. In the full seasons he played (14 or more), he averaged 31 pass attempts per game which is actually more than Marino's career average (30 per).

I think he's overrated because a lot of Giants fans think he should be a Hall of Famer. Sports radio folks and a few people I know (older people who watched him). I don't have a problem with the guy. I didn't see him play but he's been the Giants best QB since 1969. But he wasn't as good as someone like Roman Gabriel who isn't as big a name as him.
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Mattingly23
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Quote:
 
Hostetler was a Roethlisberger like fill in, in the fact that the offense was run real conservatively, even moreso than when Simms was under center, and he was able to win games due to defense, a good rushing attack, and some timely passes. The fact that Handley picked him to start over Simms the following season was a joke though.

That'd have been like Steve Bono being used over Joe Montana or Steve Young. Certainly a capable quarterback, but not in the league of the starter.


Quote:
 
If Simms was the Giants QB through the season, they would have beaten the Bills by at least 10.

A lot of people forget that when Simms got hurt, he had thrown 15 TD's against only 4 INT's that year and was on his way to his best season.


Oh yeah, Simms was clearly better than Hostetler. Even worse than Ray Handley (Terp had promised me never to say his name again) picking Hoss over Simms was Dan Reeves forcing Simms into retirement after a very effective 1993 season in favor of Dave Brown. Both Handley and Reeves set the Giants back with those decisions.

Quote:
 
I understand that Parcells' system is smashmouth. Pound the ball and tell the QB don't f*ck anything up. So you'd expect not a lot of yards or touchdowns. Be efficient and limit the chances so the you limit the mistakes - like Roethlisberger. But his TD/INT ratios weren't good and completion percentages before 1990 were all low. In the full seasons he played (14 or more), he averaged 31 pass attempts per game which is actually more than Marino's career average (30 per).

I think he's overrated because a lot of Giants fans think he should be a Hall of Famer. Sports radio folks and a few people I know (older people who watched him). I don't have a problem with the guy. I didn't see him play but he's been the Giants best QB since 1969. But he wasn't as good as someone like Roman Gabriel who isn't as big a name as him.


I'm not saying Simms never threw the ball or was the best in the league, but he was perfect for the Giants, and if anything, is underrated among fans throughout the league. There were several HOF QBs that overshadowed him and that's fine, but Simms was never overrated. Never. Seriously, I am not being a dick when I say this, but if you watched him play every Sunday for your team, you would never use the word overrated to describe him.
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rsj23terp

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Strider
Jun 14 2005, 03:19 PM
I understand that Parcells' system is smashmouth. Pound the ball and tell the QB don't f*ck anything up. So you'd expect not a lot of yards or touchdowns. Be efficient and limit the chances so the you limit the mistakes - like Roethlisberger. But his TD/INT ratios weren't good and completion percentages before 1990 were all low. In the full seasons he played (14 or more), he averaged 31 pass attempts per game which is actually more than Marino's career average (30 per).


I'll bet though that Simms threw a far great percentage of his passes in "passing downs" when the defense was prepared for it. Simms completion percentage was due in large part to the fact that there was no such thing as a west-coast offense, and most of his passes were deep outs or long seam passes in 2nd and 3rd and long situations. Of course, you didn't see him play, so all you have to go on is the numbers.

The Giants offense -- with the notable exception of Super Bowl XXI, when they threw on 11 first downs (coincidentally Simms completed all 11 passes) -- was based on run, run, pass.

Your comparison to Roethlisberger is a little silly, given the fact that the majority of his completions occurred within 7-10 yards of the line of scrimmage, including about a million WR-screens to Hines Ward. I can count on one hand the number of times Simms threw one of those in his entire career that I saw.

And as far as Marino goes, he actually averaged 34.5 passes per game for his career to Simms 28.5, and played in a 3-WR pass-offense for his entire career. Given the fact that they had essentially the same yards-per-attempt (7.3 for Marino to 7.2 for Simms) that works out to 42 yards more per game for Marino. I also can't remember more than a few instances when the Giants would be inside the 5 and throw the ball. Marino had quite a few more of those play-fake TD passes or fades from that deep because they didn't have a reliable running game.

For the record, I don't think Simms is a Hall of Fame QB, but he's certainly well above average for the era he played.
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Strider
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Quote:
 
Your comparison to Roethlisberger is a little silly, given the fact that the majority of his completions occurred within 7-10 yards of the line of scrimmage, including about a million WR-screens to Hines Ward. I can count on one hand the number of times Simms threw one of those in his entire career that I saw.


I wasn't comparing him to Benny. I meant "Limit the number of attempts...." like what the Steelers did with him.

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And as far as Marino goes, he actually averaged 34.5 passes per game for his career to Simms 28.5, and played in a 3-WR pass-offense for his entire career.


8358 divided by 17 season divided by 16 games is how I did it. And I said in the "full seasons" Simms played. He missed a lot of games in his career. But in the years he played 14 or more games, he averaged 31.

I just told 23 in a PM that an argument can be made that he's a HOFer. There's guys in the Hall who accomplished less than him. Broadway Joe didn't do anything Simms didn't (except make a guarantee and get pussy in Studio 54 every Tuesday) and he's in.
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rsj23terp

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Strider
Jun 14 2005, 03:47 PM
Quote:
 
Your comparison to Roethlisberger is a little silly, given the fact that the majority of his completions occurred within 7-10 yards of the line of scrimmage, including about a million WR-screens to Hines Ward. I can count on one hand the number of times Simms threw one of those in his entire career that I saw.


I wasn't comparing him to Benny. I meant "Limit the number of attempts...." like what the Steelers did with him.

Quote:
 
And as far as Marino goes, he actually averaged 34.5 passes per game for his career to Simms 28.5, and played in a 3-WR pass-offense for his entire career.


8358 divided by 17 season divided by 16 games is how I did it. And I said in the "full seasons" Simms played. He missed a lot of games in his career. But in the years he played 14 or more games, he averaged 31.

I just told 23 in a PM that an argument can be made that he's a HOFer. There's guys in the Hall who accomplished less than him. Broadway Joe didn't do anything Simms didn't (except make a guarantee and get pussy in Studio 54 every Tuesday) and he's in.

I agree with you on Namath, but not just because his stats suck, but because he won exactly 2 playoff games in his entire career. No player has benefitted more from one week than Joe Namath has. He wasn't even the best player on the field in Super Bowl III.

But I don't like your fuzzy math with the pass attempts. Its attempts divided by games played. That's as complicated as it needs to get. You can't say, "in seasons where he played 14 or more games" because that leaves out 1990 which was his most efficient and best season.

It doesn't jive my friend, sorry. The numbers are what they are.
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Strider
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I included 1990 cuz he played 14 games that season. Had 311 attempts.

Is it fair to count '83 when he threw 13 passes or '87 or '91 or '92? Those numbers would throw off a more accurate average because he missed a lot of games.

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I agree with you on Namath, but not just because his stats suck, but because he won exactly 2 playoff games in his entire career. No player has benefitted more from one week than Joe Namath has. He wasn't even the best player on the field in Super Bowl III.


Wasn't he the only QB to win SB MVP without throwing a TD? An image and a guarantee.
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