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You're not going to like this, but it's how I feel
Topic Started: Jun 10 2005, 11:33 PM (586 Views)
Strider
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Mattingly23
Jun 12 2005, 03:02 PM
VarsityVin
Jun 12 2005, 01:16 PM
Can we please stop the A Rod to Center Field bullsh*t, not happening!

I agree it's silly, but it's starting to get mentioned more, although these reporters could be making crap up. Here's Mike Lupica's opinion on it:

Quote:
 
Maybe next year A-Rod can take fly balls in center in the spring, see if he can catch them better than he can catch pop flies in the infield. Because more and more, it looks as if A-Rod, first-to-400 homers A-Rod, will eventually be something other than the Yankee third baseman of the future. He goes to center, or he goes to first. Maybe first is more likely.

1. Since I haven't read the article - was Lupica being sarcastic? If he wants to make an argument for him playing CF, I don't see why he'd mention that he struggles with pop ups. And the way he he wrote, "A-Rod, first-to-400 homers A-Rod".
2. Lupica's a dickhead.
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Bleedrngrblue
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rsj23terp
Jun 12 2005, 12:13 PM
moomoo24
Jun 12 2005, 11:08 AM
But we're not in essence giving up the farm if we just include the players Bleedrngrblue included.  Phillips is reaching Steve Balboni status with his AAA power numbers and we should deal him while his value is high.  Cabrera and DePaula aren't guys that take a team to the next level.  I say pull the trigger, like bleedrngrblue said, he'd be a #3/4 starter on this team and wouldn't be matching up against other teams aces.  I would take a rotation of Johnson, Mussina, Pavano and Zito in a heartbeat.

So you're working under the assumption that Oakland's scouts haven't come to the same conclusions you have about Phillips and others and would actually want them?

Oakland knows who the real Yankee prospects are, I have a hard time believing they would part with Zito without including at least one of Wang/Cano/Duncan. I'm not willing to give away any of them for a guy who hasn't done sh*t for 2 years and doesn't seem to have the type of personality that would fit in New York.

Not mentioning those guys in any potential trade for Zito is just plain silly. Oakland has scouts just like the Yankees do. They aren't going to take crap from our system for no reason.

I don't see why everyone has such a high opinion of Zito. He walks EVERYBODY. He hasn't been even a moderately consistent pitcher since 2002. His ERA has gone up the last 2 years, and his K/BB ratio has gotten worse over that same time. Its not because he's facing other team's aces that he's losing, its an ERA around 4.50.

If our prospects are so great, why not use them for someone who can actually help, not someone with his head up his ass? There's no rule that you HAVE to trade away players from your minor league system who might not pan out.

Moral of the story: unless you think Billy Beane is an idiot with a lousy scouting department -- good luck -- Zito would NEVER be dealt here for the players you propose. I guarantee he's got people who have scouted the Yankee organization fare more in depth than you have.

You can argue till you are blue in the face what Oaklands position will be, but the bottom line there is they want cheap players. The proof of that was dealing Mulder and Hudson. Andy Phillips is never going to get a real chance as a Yankee. Wang has proven he is capable of being a major leaguer. They aren't going to get much more than that for a guy who is a FA in a Year and a half at 28. they get too stingy and they get nothing but a compensatory draft pick, which is alot worse than a major league ready pitcher and a aaa infielder with pop in his bat. Plus a decent outfield prospect and possibly a decent pitcher out of the pen. Also ,I never said Byrnes was as good as O' Neill, that would be ridiculous. But he brings the same kind of energy, which this team sorely lacks. I'd rather see Byrnes diving for a ball that gets past him, than Sheff jogging to a ball and catching it off the hop any day!
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moomoo24
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Aside from you maybe confusing DePaula as a lefty you're dead on Bleedrngrblue.
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Bleedrngrblue
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moomoo24
Jun 12 2005, 08:25 PM
Aside from you maybe confusing DePaula as a lefty you're dead on Bleedrngrblue.

My bad......sorry.
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HomieYank
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You can argue till you are blue in the face what Oaklands position will be, but the bottom line there is they want cheap players. The proof of that was dealing Mulder and Hudson
They got alot more for those guys then we're talking about here. Just because the trade hasn't paid off this year doesn't mean Beane became stupid over night. They wrote a book about Bean being the pitcher, not the catcher if you know what i mean.
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Bleedrngrblue
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HomieYank
Jun 12 2005, 08:39 PM
Quote:
 

You can argue till you are blue in the face what Oaklands position will be, but the bottom line there is they want cheap players. The proof of that was dealing Mulder and Hudson
They got alot more for those guys then we're talking about here. Just because the trade hasn't paid off this year doesn't mean Beane became stupid over night. They wrote a book about Bean being the pitcher, not the catcher if you know what i mean.

Those guys are and were better than Zito is right now.
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HomieYank
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Bleedrngrblue
Jun 12 2005, 08:46 PM
HomieYank
Jun 12 2005, 08:39 PM
Quote:
 

You can argue till you are blue in the face what Oaklands position will be, but the bottom line there is they want cheap players. The proof of that was dealing Mulder and Hudson
They got alot more for those guys then we're talking about here. Just because the trade hasn't paid off this year doesn't mean Beane became stupid over night. They wrote a book about Bean being the pitcher, not the catcher if you know what i mean.

Those guys are and were better than Zito is right now.

Zito is still a lefty under 30 with a CY Young. The point is if we wouldn't do the trade why would Beane? Every team has an Andy Phillips and most teams have a Julio DePaula. From the Yankee standpoint I wouldn't trade Wang for Zito anyway.
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Bleedrngrblue
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HomieYank
Jun 12 2005, 09:07 PM
Bleedrngrblue
Jun 12 2005, 08:46 PM
HomieYank
Jun 12 2005, 08:39 PM
Quote:
 

You can argue till you are blue in the face what Oaklands position will be, but the bottom line there is they want cheap players. The proof of that was dealing Mulder and Hudson
They got alot more for those guys then we're talking about here. Just because the trade hasn't paid off this year doesn't mean Beane became stupid over night. They wrote a book about Bean being the pitcher, not the catcher if you know what i mean.

Those guys are and were better than Zito is right now.

Zito is still a lefty under 30 with a CY Young. The point is if we wouldn't do the trade why would Beane? Every team has an Andy Phillips and most teams have a Julio DePaula. From the Yankee standpoint I wouldn't trade Wang for Zito anyway.

Jorge DePaula is the correct name. Why wouldn't you trade Wang for Zito? That is a no brainer. Zito is a much better pitcher and has more potential for greatness than Wang ever will. Not a knock on Wang, just the facts. Every team has an Andy Phillips? What leagues are you watching? Andy Phillips has above average power, and not every team has players with that ability, that translate it to Major league homers. The BIG question mark with Phillips is, can he hit a breaking ball? I think the jury is still out on that.
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HomieYank
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Jorge DePaula is the correct name.
My bad, i know there was two, and i do/did like the good one.
Quote:
 
Why wouldn't you trade Wang for Zito? That is a no brainer. Zito is a much better pitcher and has more potential for greatness than Wang ever will. Not a knock on Wang, just the facts.
1) Wang is Cheaper and further from free agencey.
2)Barry Zito's Era is 3.21 at home and 5.26 away from the Collesium
3)Zito has 38 walks already this year and we have a pretty poor defensive team
4)This year Zito has an era over 5 against the Sox...both Sox. And an era over 6 against the Orioles. Last year his era against Boston was over 8. and in 2003, his best of the last 3 his era was 5.06 against the Sox.
and finally...
5) The Boston Red Sox OWN Barry Zito!

The point is Wang and Zito are putting up basically the same number's this year. The difference between the two isn't going to mean the difference between 4th and 1st place

Quote:
 
Every team has an Andy Phillips? What leagues are you watching?
Mostly the major Leagues, the one Andy Phillips isn't good enough to start in. I defended Phillips and want him on this team, but he's 27 and he's basically a right handed Russel Branyan. Guys like him get called up all the time. Ivan Cruz, Robert Thompson, Felix Jose. The indians have a guy in tripple a named Jeff Leifer(was in the second Colon trade, couldn't start for the expos). Brian Daubach is hitting(D-Rays). There's a guy in the Mexican league(tigers) who has similar if not better numbers than Phillips...37years old. They're all over the place. sh*t, even the A's have Dan Johnson who is hitting really well and is younger than Phillips. Beane simply isn't gonna want him.
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Bleedrngrblue
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HomieYank
Jun 13 2005, 06:26 PM
Quote:
 
Jorge DePaula is the correct name.
My bad, i know there was two, and i do/did like the good one.
Quote:
 
Why wouldn't you trade Wang for Zito? That is a no brainer. Zito is a much better pitcher and has more potential for greatness than Wang ever will. Not a knock on Wang, just the facts.
1) Wang is Cheaper and further from free agencey.
2)Barry Zito's Era is 3.21 at home and 5.26 away from the Collesium
3)Zito has 38 walks already this year and we have a pretty poor defensive team
4)This year Zito has an era over 5 against the Sox...both Sox. And an era over 6 against the Orioles. Last year his era against Boston was over 8. and in 2003, his best of the last 3 his era was 5.06 against the Sox.
and finally...
5) The Boston Red Sox OWN Barry Zito!

The point is Wang and Zito are putting up basically the same number's this year. The difference between the two isn't going to mean the difference between 4th and 1st place

Quote:
 
Every team has an Andy Phillips? What leagues are you watching?
Mostly the major Leagues, the one Andy Phillips isn't good enough to start in. I defended Phillips and want him on this team, but he's 27 and he's basically a right handed Russel Branyan. Guys like him get called up all the time. Ivan Cruz, Robert Thompson, Felix Jose. The indians have a guy in tripple a named Jeff Leifer(was in the second Colon trade, couldn't start for the expos). Brian Daubach is hitting(D-Rays). There's a guy in the Mexican league(tigers) who has similar if not better numbers than Phillips...37years old. They're all over the place. sh*t, even the A's have Dan Johnson who is hitting really well and is younger than Phillips. Beane simply isn't gonna want him.

That's all fine and dandy. But as I said previously, Zito is 10 times the pitcher Wang is. Along those same lines, he is an innings eater, over 200 per season, and has K'd at least 145 hitters every season . You will never get Wang to have those numbers. I'd still take him in a heartbeat, and he will probably wind up here as a FA. If you liked Pettitte, you gotta love the idea of Zito in pinstripes. His career era is 3.50 whereas Pettites is 3.90.
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Bleedrngrblue
Jun 13 2005, 08:36 PM
HomieYank
Jun 13 2005, 06:26 PM
Quote:
 
Jorge DePaula is the correct name.
My bad, i know there was two, and i do/did like the good one.
Quote:
 
Why wouldn't you trade Wang for Zito? That is a no brainer. Zito is a much better pitcher and has more potential for greatness than Wang ever will. Not a knock on Wang, just the facts.
1) Wang is Cheaper and further from free agencey.
2)Barry Zito's Era is 3.21 at home and 5.26 away from the Collesium
3)Zito has 38 walks already this year and we have a pretty poor defensive team
4)This year Zito has an era over 5 against the Sox...both Sox. And an era over 6 against the Orioles. Last year his era against Boston was over 8. and in 2003, his best of the last 3 his era was 5.06 against the Sox.
and finally...
5) The Boston Red Sox OWN Barry Zito!

The point is Wang and Zito are putting up basically the same number's this year. The difference between the two isn't going to mean the difference between 4th and 1st place

Quote:
 
Every team has an Andy Phillips? What leagues are you watching?
Mostly the major Leagues, the one Andy Phillips isn't good enough to start in. I defended Phillips and want him on this team, but he's 27 and he's basically a right handed Russel Branyan. Guys like him get called up all the time. Ivan Cruz, Robert Thompson, Felix Jose. The indians have a guy in tripple a named Jeff Leifer(was in the second Colon trade, couldn't start for the expos). Brian Daubach is hitting(D-Rays). There's a guy in the Mexican league(tigers) who has similar if not better numbers than Phillips...37years old. They're all over the place. sh*t, even the A's have Dan Johnson who is hitting really well and is younger than Phillips. Beane simply isn't gonna want him.

That's all fine and dandy. But as I said previously, Zito is 10 times the pitcher Wang is. Along those same lines, he is an innings eater, over 200 per season, and has K'd at least 145 hitters every season . You will never get Wang to have those numbers. I'd still take him in a heartbeat, and he will probably wind up here as a FA. If you liked Pettitte, you gotta love the idea of Zito in pinstripes. His career era is 3.50 whereas Pettites is 3.90.

:please: forget the deceptive CAREER era argument. What has he done lately? He's been pretty mediocre the last few years.

plus Zito's got a fragile psyche and he's not even in NY yet. He'd collapse like a cheap pup tent before the all star break if he was forsed to deal with NY Yankees style pressure.

Das True. :peace:
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Bleedrngrblue
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YankeeBaseball
Jun 13 2005, 07:50 PM
Bleedrngrblue
Jun 13 2005, 08:36 PM
HomieYank
Jun 13 2005, 06:26 PM
Quote:
 
Jorge DePaula is the correct name.
My bad, i know there was two, and i do/did like the good one.
Quote:
 
Why wouldn't you trade Wang for Zito? That is a no brainer. Zito is a much better pitcher and has more potential for greatness than Wang ever will. Not a knock on Wang, just the facts.
1) Wang is Cheaper and further from free agencey.
2)Barry Zito's Era is 3.21 at home and 5.26 away from the Collesium
3)Zito has 38 walks already this year and we have a pretty poor defensive team
4)This year Zito has an era over 5 against the Sox...both Sox. And an era over 6 against the Orioles. Last year his era against Boston was over 8. and in 2003, his best of the last 3 his era was 5.06 against the Sox.
and finally...
5) The Boston Red Sox OWN Barry Zito!

The point is Wang and Zito are putting up basically the same number's this year. The difference between the two isn't going to mean the difference between 4th and 1st place

Quote:
 
Every team has an Andy Phillips? What leagues are you watching?
Mostly the major Leagues, the one Andy Phillips isn't good enough to start in. I defended Phillips and want him on this team, but he's 27 and he's basically a right handed Russel Branyan. Guys like him get called up all the time. Ivan Cruz, Robert Thompson, Felix Jose. The indians have a guy in tripple a named Jeff Leifer(was in the second Colon trade, couldn't start for the expos). Brian Daubach is hitting(D-Rays). There's a guy in the Mexican league(tigers) who has similar if not better numbers than Phillips...37years old. They're all over the place. sh*t, even the A's have Dan Johnson who is hitting really well and is younger than Phillips. Beane simply isn't gonna want him.

That's all fine and dandy. But as I said previously, Zito is 10 times the pitcher Wang is. Along those same lines, he is an innings eater, over 200 per season, and has K'd at least 145 hitters every season . You will never get Wang to have those numbers. I'd still take him in a heartbeat, and he will probably wind up here as a FA. If you liked Pettitte, you gotta love the idea of Zito in pinstripes. His career era is 3.50 whereas Pettites is 3.90.

:please: forget the deceptive CAREER era argument. What has he done lately? He's been pretty mediocre the last few years.

plus Zito's got a fragile psyche and he's not even in NY yet. He'd collapse like a cheap pup tent before the all star break if he was forsed to deal with NY Yankees style pressure.

Das True. :peace:

I disagree. Not saying I'm right, just a feeling. I think he would LOVE to dissapear in this rotation and just pitch every fifth day. He is the anchor in Oakland , and much like Mussina mentally, I don't think that is something he wants to be. Pitching behind RJ and Moose, I think he would be a huge asset on this team. He is just waiting it out in Oakland, knowing they aren't keeping him.
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We just disagree about Zito. I could see him turning into Weaver on us.

Plus, I'd like to keep our young guys, for once. ;)
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Strider
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Zito would lose his mind the minute he's told he has to cut his hair.
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Bleedrngrblue
Jun 13 2005, 08:55 PM
I disagree. Not saying I'm right, just a feeling. I think he would LOVE to dissapear in this rotation and just pitch every fifth day. He is the anchor in Oakland , and much like Mussina mentally, I don't think that is something he wants to be. Pitching behind RJ and Moose, I think he would be a huge asset on this team. He is just waiting it out in Oakland, knowing they aren't keeping him.

Nobody "disappears" in New York when you have a recognizable name and a Cy Young on your mantle.

I just don't think we need any more "names" who can't deliver under the gun. We've got a roster full of those guys.

We need guys who are dedicated to making a name for themselves and getting better year by year, not reclamation projects.

This is all my opinion of course, and as evidenced by the discussion so far, yours is different.
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moomoo24
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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I personally feel like he would be great here but I can see the argument against him. Anyway it was good having a good baseball discussion without too many lesbian comments going around. :laugh:
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moomoo24
Jun 13 2005, 11:49 PM
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I personally feel like he would be great here but I can see the argument against him. Anyway it was good having a good baseball discussion without too many lesbian comments going around. :laugh:

You spoke too soon...

He's a soft lesbian. He's struggling on a team in a town in a state where there's almost no pressure. (1) People lose 10% just by putting on the uniform. When was the last time somebody came here and saw their ERA go down? (2) Besides the New York adjustment, he'd have to adjust to the Yankees. That's huge for a guy who likes to grow his hair long, snuggle with stuffed animals, play guitar in the clubhouse, and do Yoga. Everyone talks about how much of an office atmosphere the Yankees locker room is; its the opposite in Oakland. (3) His stuff is overrated. He's got an 87 mph fastball and a rollercoaster curve. If that curve isn't looping and his location isn't great, he's got nothing. (4) He'd feel restricted here. He's one of those that those people like to call "free spirits". He would feel confined and he doesn't fit in with anyone - maybe Giambi - on the team. Can you imagine him sitting next to Brown or Randy Johnson, hugging his green horse?
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Bleedrngrblue
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rsj23terp
Jun 13 2005, 09:30 PM
Bleedrngrblue
Jun 13 2005, 08:55 PM
I disagree. Not saying I'm right, just a feeling. I think he would LOVE to dissapear in this rotation and just pitch every fifth day. He is the anchor in Oakland , and much like Mussina mentally, I don't think that is something he wants to be. Pitching behind RJ and Moose, I think he would be a huge asset on this team. He is just waiting it out in Oakland, knowing they aren't keeping him.

Nobody "disappears" in New York when you have a recognizable name and a Cy Young on your mantle.

I just don't think we need any more "names" who can't deliver under the gun. We've got a roster full of those guys.

We need guys who are dedicated to making a name for themselves and getting better year by year, not reclamation projects.

This is all my opinion of course, and as evidenced by the discussion so far, yours is different.

The same crap being brought up about Zito and his mental toughness was said about Mussina. As for keeping our young guys, I don't really think the 2 year difference between Wang and Zito is significant. If anyones curve isn't breaking well and their location is poor they have nothing! So that is one piss poor argument! Do not compare a guy who is a career AL pitcher, to f*cknuts Weaver, the psychotic pussy, there is no comparison. Zito is "colorful", he is allowed to be that in Oaktown, it plays well to all the fruits and nuts out there. The Yankees of the last 10 years are riddled with so called malcontents and flakes on the roster, for the most part, they have worked out, I see no legitimate reason Zito wouldn't. And Strider, for a guy who can't pitch, he strikes out more guys than Pavano or Wang ever will, which would help our pussy ass defense! A guy pitching every third start behind Johnson and Mussina, is alot looser, than a guy who is expected to deliver an ace outing, and faces alot of number 1 pitchers. I'd say that is equivalent to dissapearing.
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Strider
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I didn't say he can't pitch. The man won a Cy Young. And I know his ERA is pretty good in his last few starts and he's had a few tough-luck losses. HOWEVA, I think his stuff isn't that good and everything about him screams "New York failure".
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Strider
Jun 14 2005, 07:06 AM
I didn't say he can't pitch. The man won a Cy Young. And I know his ERA is pretty good in his last few starts and he's had a few tough-luck losses. HOWEVA, I think his stuff isn't that good and everything about him screams "New York failure".

I gues I just look at it differently. I see a guy who is better than Pavano, better than Wang will ever be, and yes, better than Kevin Brown at this point in their careers. At 27 years of age, I still see potential and upside. I don't think he has pitched to his ability very much at all till recently.
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Even in his Cy Young season I would have said that he isn't fit for NY and pinstripes. When Amit comes around, ask him what I've always said about Zito.

His ERA is similar to Pavano's (this season) and atleast 45 is doing what he's doing in New York. We don't know what an Oakland 4.47 translates to over here. Especially when you factor in his personality and its contrast to "The Yankee Way". Wang has started 7 games in his career. We don't know if he'll be better or worse than Zito. But he is pitching to a better ERA (4.44) right now. He's not worth what it would cost to get him. He wouldn't be the cause of a turnaround this season and if you're thinking of the future, he isn't an elite starter.
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Zito's laid back lifestyle would never play here. He's probably the other guy that was playing the bongos naked with Matthew McConaughey.
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Jun 14 2005, 08:31 AM
Zito's laid back lifestyle would never play here.  He's probably the other guy that was playing the bongos naked with Matthew McConaughey.

You make it sound as if he's just laid back. Laid back people can get by fine in New York. Its neo-hippy semi-quacks like Zito who don't or wouldn't.
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Bleedrngrblue
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I beg to differ on the future part. A 27 yo with his credentials , who is a lefty to boot, is definitely an elite starter! I am always skeptical of supposed personality flaws. Remember, Justice, Fielder, and Sheff were all supposed to be headaches in the locker room. No one came to the Yankees with more of an aloof reputation than Moose, and he turned out just fine. I'd definitely be willing to take a chance on Zito, because he is a lefty, and has always pitched in the Mens league! Of course there have been bad attitudes that lingered after guys came here, Mel Hall, Polonia, Ricky, Tartabull, even Reuben the first time. But I'd take the chance. As much as I love what Wang has done on this team, I don't ever see him becoming dominant. He hasn't dominated anyone, and although he throws a heavy ball, he can't blow people away!
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HomieYank
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This year he has pitched well at the Collesium, and Bad everywhere else. He walks alot of batters, which will hurt him more on a bad deffensive team. And Boston owns him. I don't think the personality argument matters compared to the fact that he can't pitch against Boston.




Quote:
 
A guy pitching every third start behind Johnson and Mussina, is alot looser, than a guy who is expected to deliver an ace outing
He didn't pitch great last year or the year before behind Hudson and Mulder. I know they called them the Big 3, but Zito was deffinetly 3
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Bleedrngrblue
Jun 14 2005, 09:02 AM
I beg to differ on the future part. A 27 yo with his credentials , who is a lefty to boot, is definitely an elite starter! I am always skeptical of supposed personality flaws. Remember, Justice, Fielder, and Sheff were all supposed to be headaches in the locker room. No one came to the Yankees with more of an aloof reputation than Moose, and he turned out just fine. I'd definitely be willing to take a chance on Zito, because he is a lefty, and has always pitched in the Mens league! Of course there have been bad attitudes that lingered after guys came here, Mel Hall, Polonia, Ricky, Tartabull, even Reuben the first time. But I'd take the chance. As much as I love what Wang has done on this team, I don't ever see him becoming dominant. He hasn't dominated anyone, and although he throws a heavy ball, he can't blow people away!

Hey, you're talking to Mr. "Who the f*ck cares about chemistry". I don't have a problem with taking on the guy who has the a-hole reputation or is aloof like Mussina. But I'm talking about neo-hippy semi-quacks. I don't think Zito would be comfortable here.
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cmnyy
Jun 10 2005, 11:40 PM
Yanksfan03
Jun 10 2005, 11:36 PM
Lets trade two of our three most valuable chips for a piece of sh*t.  Good thinking.  :thumbup:



You know what dude - I've disagreed with alot of sh*t you've said over the years, but I've always disagreed with you respectfully. I've even defended you a number of times.

And whenever you disagree with me, you do it like that. "Stupidity"

Fu<k you man. Seriously.

YF03 nuts up again and gets cum sprayed all over his face...

It's fine when people throw out opinions, REALISTIC ones, this one is...Would I do it? No, Cano and Duncan could be playing alongside eachother next season(I'm still hanging onto this season, barely) at 1B and 2B, Wang will definately be in the rotation since Browney will be gone, I doubt we go after another pitcher...

But a team to look out for to try and aquire a Zito, Kip Wells, Jaime Moyer, or even a Jason Jennings is Baltimore. Not really any big names, but if they can get one of these guys along with getting Erik Bedard back from the DL...They will be for real, good for Lee :crybaby:.
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