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Every time I think of you,I always catch my breath
Topic Started: Jun 10 2005, 06:34 PM (262 Views)
Strider
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Mattingly23
Jun 10 2005, 11:15 PM
HomieYank
Jun 10 2005, 11:11 PM
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In his best season here, he hit .284 with 14 homeruns and missed 66 games. He showed no signs of being durable and fragile .284 hitters who are closer to 30 than 20, they aren't that valuable to a "win now" franchise.
We all like a nice .330 hitter, but OBP is the more important stat and Johnson's was .422 that year. 70 walks and 60 runs in 96 games in your second year(2001 doesn't count) is plenty of promise. And that whole "win now" sh*t is why the yankees are where they are today. One thing you are 100% right about is that he couldn't stay healthy here and very few (2 or 3 tops) missed him when Vazquez was throwing well.

Exactly. This is why you try to have a nice mix of veterans and young players when trying to win. Don't sell your soul trying to win one season, then kill the next 5 seasons. That's what the Yankees have become. It's why Cano needs to stay in this lineup. It's why other young players need to be worked in if they can deal some veterans for prospects or younger big leaguers. If you have a win now philosophy of bringing all veterans with long-term deals, you end up with a very inflexible roster if they struggle, which is what the Yankees have now. Even Cashman has acknowledged it's a clogged roster. Strider knows it all though. He could be the manager better than Torre can. Hell, make him the manager/GM. He could do it. Strider knows it all, let him fix everything without struggling in the meantime and without actually developing any young players through your own farm system. Strider, bring up a title, win now boy!

How many old veterans have I wanted this team to get? Am I on the Clemens bandwagon? I've said this before but I've become used to repeating myself: I'm not a "win now" and nothing else type of fan. Don't be fooled because I was all for the Randy Johnson trade. I want to win now and the year after that x infinite. That's why I said, Vazquez, unlike some other guys, wasn't a quick fix bandaid. Homerun came here when he was 27 years old and Johnson was 25 at the time. Its not as if we traded the future for a 3 month old man rental. As much as you think I'm all about "the big signing" and "spend, spend, spend for the present", I'm not. And I've said it before but people like to ignore me when I'm making sense. Gasp in advance - I didn't want Carlos Beltran and I don't want Clemens. I want young players who fit the team's needs. If that young player who fits the team's needs is in the farm system, WONDERFUL. If not, then I believe in going after free agents or making trades to acquire those players. The Devil Rays have been doing the prospect thing for a while now. Where are they? Where will they be next season and the season after that? Damn, and they usually pick real high in the draft too. How could it be? How come Piniella wants ownership to spend more? Because most good teams are comprised mostly of free agents. Because most prospects fail. The veteran is more of a sure thing. And I'm not saying "old man for the short term" (I said it before, but people ignore stuff when I'm making sense <- said that before too, but people ignore stuff...). Shannon Stewart was 28 when I wanted to trade Nick Johnson for him. That's the kind of acquisition I'm talking about. A guy who was only 3 years older than Johnson and much more capable of helping the team now AND he's got more than 2 years left in the tank. A 28 year old All Star (he finished in the top 5 for MVP that year) is more valuable to a team like the Yankees than an a 25 year old who misses half the season. Am I wrong? Please, tell me if I'm wrong about that.

Also (since I missed it the first time), your response to what I said about Johnson earlier was weak. "Bad luck can't last that long." You're going on that? Dawg, you're smarter than that. Sheeeeet, I thought we were eye-to-eye on that whole "fate" and "luck" thing. Why cross fingers and hope that someday Nick can stay healthy when we can get an All Star 27 year old pitcher (just 2 years older than him) for him? And Nick showed no signs of being durable while here. Who breaks their hand while fouling off a pitch? He got hurt last year too. As I said, I don't remember you complaining about it when Javy was in the All Star game and Johnson was on the DL (his usual spot) with a broken lumbar.

There's been 2 threads where we've gotten into it about Torre (in both of them I said I could do a better job than him) and in both of them you've stopped after I posted. But now, you wanna take your little shots. We're arguing Nick Johnson and you've got Homie on your side so you can slide in that little sarcasm. Go find my post and reply to that one. Address everything I said and I'll get into it there, Slick. Stop trying to make yourself look smart at other people's expense. I won't be the sucka and you should know that by now.
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Mattingly23
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You're skipping one thing I admitted. I said if they were going to trade NJ, I wanted it to be for a young pitcher. So while I hated giving up on NJ when they did, I was happy to get Vazquez, and frankly if I had my way, Javy would have been given another shot this season. I wasn't the one who started this thread. I like Nick Johnson. I am like cmnyy. I like the guy. I didn't want to deal him, but in the trade he was included in, it made some sense, especially with Giambi here. If Giambi was never signed, I would say you have to hold onto him. Like cmnyy, I will continue to like Nick Johnson, and root for him. I can wish he was still here without knocking the Yankees for dealing him. I don't blame them for pulling the trigger on the Vazquez deal. I blame them for giving up on him after a half a bad season. If Johnson were dealt for an older guy, I would be knocking them right now. They waited until a year later when they took that pitcher in his prime and dealt him for the 41 year old.
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Strider
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Mattingly23
Jun 10 2005, 11:43 PM
You're skipping one thing I admitted. I said if they were going to trade NJ, I wanted it to be for a young pitcher. So while I hated giving up on NJ when they did, I was happy to get Vazquez, and frankly if I had my way, Javy would have been given another shot this season. I wasn't the one who started this thread. I like Nick Johnson. I am like cmnyy. I like the guy. I didn't want to deal him, but in the trade he was included in, it made some sense, especially with Giambi here. If Giambi was never signed, I would say you have to hold onto him. Like cmnyy, I will continue to like Nick Johnson, and root for him. I can wish he was still here without knocking the Yankees for dealing him. I don't blame them for pulling the trigger on the Vazquez deal. I blame them for giving up on him after a half a bad season.

That was part of what I said.

Do you now understand that I'm not Mr. Win Now and FuŠk The Future? If not, I've got a few more paragraphs in me.
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cmnyy
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Mattingly23
Jun 10 2005, 11:43 PM
You're skipping one thing I admitted. I said if they were going to trade NJ, I wanted it to be for a young pitcher. So while I hated giving up on NJ when they did, I was happy to get Vazquez, and frankly if I had my way, Javy would have been given another shot this season. I wasn't the one who started this thread. I like Nick Johnson. I am like cmnyy. I like the guy. I didn't want to deal him, but in the trade he was included in, it made some sense, especially with Giambi here. If Giambi was never signed, I would say you have to hold onto him. Like cmnyy, I will continue to like Nick Johnson, and root for him. I can wish he was still here without knocking the Yankees for dealing him. I don't blame them for pulling the trigger on the Vazquez deal. I blame them for giving up on him after a half a bad season.



No love for Juan? :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby:

:laugh:


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Mattingly23
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Strider
Jun 10 2005, 11:44 PM
Mattingly23
Jun 10 2005, 11:43 PM
You're skipping one thing I admitted.  I said if they were going to trade NJ, I wanted it to be for a young pitcher.  So while I hated giving up on NJ when they did, I was happy to get Vazquez, and frankly if I had my way, Javy would have been given another shot this season.  I wasn't the one who started this thread.  I like Nick Johnson.  I am like cmnyy.  I like the guy.  I didn't want to deal him, but in the trade he was included in, it made some sense, especially with Giambi here.  If Giambi was never signed, I would say you have to hold onto him.  Like cmnyy, I will continue to like Nick Johnson, and root for him.  I can wish he was still here without knocking the Yankees for dealing him.  I don't blame them for pulling the trigger on the Vazquez deal.  I blame them for giving up on him after a half a bad season.

That was part of what I said.

Do you now understand that I'm not Mr. Win Now and FuŠk The Future? If not, I've got a few more paragraphs in me.

Got it. Save your time.

Cmnyy, I liked Juan Rivera, but I was fine with dealing him. He did well as a 4th OF on Montreal last year. I figure that's what he will always be, which isn't horrible, but is not worth getting upset over. If anything, I don't like having to move multiple young guys in each deal, which is another reason I dislike your Zito idea.

Nick Johnson AND Juan Rivera - two young guys gone (plus Choate).

Dioner Navarro AND Brad Halsey - another two young guys gone (plus Vazquez, who is still relatively young).
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HomieYank
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Strider
Jun 10 2005, 10:38 PM
Mattingly23
Jun 10 2005, 11:15 PM
HomieYank
Jun 10 2005, 11:11 PM
Quote:
 
In his best season here, he hit .284 with 14 homeruns and missed 66 games. He showed no signs of being durable and fragile .284 hitters who are closer to 30 than 20, they aren't that valuable to a "win now" franchise.
We all like a nice .330 hitter, but OBP is the more important stat and Johnson's was .422 that year. 70 walks and 60 runs in 96 games in your second year(2001 doesn't count) is plenty of promise. And that whole "win now" sh*t is why the yankees are where they are today. One thing you are 100% right about is that he couldn't stay healthy here and very few (2 or 3 tops) missed him when Vazquez was throwing well.

Exactly. This is why you try to have a nice mix of veterans and young players when trying to win. Don't sell your soul trying to win one season, then kill the next 5 seasons. That's what the Yankees have become. It's why Cano needs to stay in this lineup. It's why other young players need to be worked in if they can deal some veterans for prospects or younger big leaguers. If you have a win now philosophy of bringing all veterans with long-term deals, you end up with a very inflexible roster if they struggle, which is what the Yankees have now. Even Cashman has acknowledged it's a clogged roster. Strider knows it all though. He could be the manager better than Torre can. Hell, make him the manager/GM. He could do it. Strider knows it all, let him fix everything without struggling in the meantime and without actually developing any young players through your own farm system. Strider, bring up a title, win now boy!

How many old veterans have I wanted this team to get? Am I on the Clemens bandwagon? I've said this before but I've become used to repeating myself: I'm not a "win now" and nothing else type of fan. Don't be fooled because I was all for the Randy Johnson trade. I want to win now and the year after that x infinite. That's why I said, Vazquez, unlike some other guys, wasn't a quick fix bandaid. Homerun came here when he was 27 years old and Johnson was 25 at the time. Its not as if we traded the future for a 3 month old man rental. As much as you think I'm all about "the big signing" and "spend, spend, spend for the present", I'm not. And I've said it before but people like to ignore me when I'm making sense. Gasp in advance - I didn't want Carlos Beltran and I don't want Clemens. I want young players who fit the team's needs. If that young player who fits the team's needs is in the farm system, WONDERFUL. If not, then I believe in going after free agents or making trades to acquire those players. The Devil Rays have been doing the prospect thing for a while now. Where are they? Where will they be next season and the season after that? Damn, and they usually pick real high in the draft too. How could it be? How come Piniella wants ownership to spend more? Because most good teams are comprised mostly of free agents. Because most prospects fail. The veteran is more of a sure thing. And I'm not saying "old man for the short term" (I said it before, but people ignore stuff when I'm making sense <- said that before too, but people ignore stuff...). Shannon Stewart was 28 when I wanted to trade Nick Johnson for him. That's the kind of acquisition I'm talking about. A guy who was only 3 years older than Johnson and much more capable of helping the team now AND he's got more than 2 years left in the tank. A 28 year old All Star (he finished in the top 5 for MVP that year) is more valuable to a team like the Yankees than an a 25 year old who misses half the season. Am I wrong? Please, tell me if I'm wrong about that.

Also (since I missed it the first time), your response to what I said about Johnson earlier was weak. "Bad luck can't last that long." You're going on that? Dawg, you're smarter than that. Sheeeeet, I thought we were eye-to-eye on that whole "fate" and "luck" thing. Why cross fingers and hope that someday Nick can stay healthy when we can get an All Star 27 year old pitcher (just 2 years older than him) for him? And Nick showed no signs of being durable while here. Who breaks their hand while fouling off a pitch? He got hurt last year too. As I said, I don't remember you complaining about it when Javy was in the All Star game and Johnson was on the DL (his usual spot) with a broken lumbar.

There's been 2 threads where we've gotten into it about Torre (in both of them I said I could do a better job than him) and in both of them you've stopped after I posted. But now, you wanna take your little shots. We're arguing Nick Johnson and you've got Homie on your side so you can slide in that little sarcasm. Go find my post and reply to that one. Address everything I said and I'll get into it there, Slick. Stop trying to make yourself look smart at other people's expense. I won't be the sucka and you should know that by now.

1)I'm not exactly on a side in this one. Infact I think you guys kindoff agree.
2)I was against the Shannon Stewart thing because he was in his walk year and was basically a fast DH. I wanted Jeter to lead off, NJ to hit second(higher obp then Stewart) and Soriano to get an RBI slot in the lineup.

What we gonna do right here is go back...way back....back into time...
...Just to clear things up. Homie doesn't have beef with the NJ for Vazquez trade. Homie has beef with the following.

1) Everybody not in the David Justice trade going to Cinncinati for Denny Neagle
Not only could we have won the WS without Denny Neagle, but we could have kept Willy Mo Pena(clause or no clause), who we had to trade to get Henson Back. AND we wouldn't have had to Kiss Henson's ass and give him all that money and a no trade clause to get him to stay in our system.

2) Diangelo Jiminez for Jay Whitasick
Not because of Jiminez, because of Whitasick. We had Uggie Urbina for Jiminez straight up!!!! how you gonna go and trade for a garbage reliever having a carrer year as a 7th inning guy in San Diego instead?? again....Who did Florida give up for Uggie? know what, don't even tell me.

3) Rushing Drew Henson
I don't know if many people remember, but Henson was hitting in the .320s when he was promoted(at 21 or 22) to Columbus. Would he have been a bust anyway? who knows. Was he worth more to the yankees with better stats at a lower level? Yes(Clause or no Clause!)

4) Lowell for Yarnall and Claussen for Boone
I know it sounds stupid, but I'm going with Strider's name rule on this one. His name was Ed Yarnall!!!! Don't get me wrong, I loved Scott Brocius in 98, and Hignsight is 20/20, but I didn't want Lowell dealt for a lower level prospect. Lowell was the safer bet. Strider is right, most prospects don't work out. Say what you want about how Claussen is pitching now and about the home run. I thought it was alot for Boone when we already had Ventura(very similar stats).

Anyway I'm sure there are more I can't think of. OH, the Irabu deal, but whatever, Rivera turned out to be a dick and Homer Bush turned out to be cool. T

he point is you can't overvalue prospects as players or you'll pass on good trades, but you can't give them away like they are worthless or you'll end up having to trade one you know will be good.
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Mattingly23
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I'm in 100% agreement with all 4 of Homie's points and it's not hindsight. I felt that way about every one of those deals at the time they were made.
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Strider
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3) Rushing Drew Henson
I don't know if many people remember, but Henson was hitting in the .320s when he was promoted(at 21 or 22) to Columbus. Would he have been a bust anyway? who knows. Was he worth more to the yankees with better stats at a lower level? Yes(Clause or no Clause!)


He would have been a bust anyway. How much help and time and extra work did he get down at AAA? Nothing helped. And he can't play QB either. It'll be real fun watching him ride the bench in Dallas. It was real fun watching him suck against the Bears.
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HomieYank
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Strider
Jun 10 2005, 11:23 PM
Quote:
 
3) Rushing Drew Henson
I don't know if many people remember, but Henson was hitting in the .320s when he was promoted(at 21 or 22) to Columbus. Would he have been a bust anyway? who knows. Was he worth more to the yankees with better stats at a lower level? Yes(Clause or no Clause!)


He would have been a bust anyway. How much help and time and extra work did he get down at AAA? Nothing helped. And he can't play QB either. It'll be real fun watching him ride the bench in Dallas. It was real fun watching him suck against the Bears.

The point is he always had power. Even when he sucked his doubles and Home run totals were high, and in Trenton(or Norwich whatever the hell it was) he was hitting in the .300s. If they didn't have to rush him because of the insane contract he had(which itself was because of trading him in the first place) he would have had some value, not that they would have traded him anyway($$$ :wall: ) But you get the idea...if it weren't for number 1 i don't think number 3 would have been an issue.
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Strider
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True.
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