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can we please keep track
Topic Started: Apr 9 2005, 02:20 PM (133 Views)
Zidanman
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of the hits and runs that happen right after mel stottlemyre visits the mound. i think it's important.
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HomieYank
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I don't think that would be a very telling stat. He'll only go out there if a pitcher is struggling already and people are on base. A better way to judge a pitching coach is start to start.
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Yanks212
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HomieYank
Apr 9 2005, 02:31 PM
I don't think that would be a very telling stat. He'll only go out there if a pitcher is struggling already and people are on base. A better way to judge a pitching coach is start to start.

Ok...then Mel still sucks at his job.

See Weaver, Vazquez, Contreras, Heredia etc.
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HomieYank
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Yanks212
Apr 9 2005, 01:34 PM
HomieYank
Apr 9 2005, 02:31 PM
I don't think that would be a very telling stat.  He'll only go out there if a pitcher is struggling already and people are on base.  A better way to judge a pitching coach is start to start.

Ok...then Mel still sucks at his job.

See Weaver, Vazquez, Contreras, Heredia etc.

Oh I'm not a Mel guy, not by a long shot. I just don't think you can judge pitching coaches by trips to the mound.
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Zidanman
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HomieYank
Apr 9 2005, 01:39 PM
Yanks212
Apr 9 2005, 01:34 PM
HomieYank
Apr 9 2005, 02:31 PM
I don't think that would be a very telling stat.  He'll only go out there if a pitcher is struggling already and people are on base.  A better way to judge a pitching coach is start to start.

Ok...then Mel still sucks at his job.

See Weaver, Vazquez, Contreras, Heredia etc.

Oh I'm not a Mel guy, not by a long shot. I just don't think you can judge pitching coaches by trips to the mound.

But isn't it bad that every time, seemingly, that he comes out, a hit happens to the very next batter?
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Yanksfan03
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Zidanman
Apr 9 2005, 03:02 PM
HomieYank
Apr 9 2005, 01:39 PM
Yanks212
Apr 9 2005, 01:34 PM
HomieYank
Apr 9 2005, 02:31 PM
I don't think that would be a very telling stat.  He'll only go out there if a pitcher is struggling already and people are on base.  A better way to judge a pitching coach is start to start.

Ok...then Mel still sucks at his job.

See Weaver, Vazquez, Contreras, Heredia etc.

Oh I'm not a Mel guy, not by a long shot. I just don't think you can judge pitching coaches by trips to the mound.

But isn't it bad that every time, seemingly, that he comes out, a hit happens to the very next batter?

I would think so.
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Mattingly23
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Silliness.
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Yanksfan03
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Name a pitcher that Mel has helped the last few years. I can't think of one.
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VICTORious
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mel f*cked doc up pretty bad and that was in the 80s
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Mattingly23
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Yanksfan03
Apr 9 2005, 04:17 PM
Name a pitcher that Mel has helped the last few years. I can't think of one.

I never thought I'd be saying this, but how about Tanyon Sturtze? He apparently turned things about after a chat with Mel at the hotel after he got rocked in that KC start last year.

On a larger scale though, I just don't buy that most pitching coaches greatly change any pitchers' careers, other than Leo Mazzone. Everyone thinks Rick Peterson does too, but he just got lucky to have 3 of the best young pitchers in the game in a market that has some patience. There are other cases where a particular coach might great affect a pitcher's career, but I don't think the pitching coach should get praise nor blame if a pitcher doesn't perform.

I'll assess the guys you mentioned:

Jeff Weaver was a nutcase, who couldn't handle NY. He showed potential in a big ballpark in Detroit with no pressure, but couldn't handle the bright lights. Now he's out in LA where it's laid back and where he grew up, pitching in a bigger ballpark again. He's more relaxed and he is able to be himself. I watched him pitch the other night and he was great in SF. I don't attribute that to a pitching coach. It's getting out of here.

Javier Vazquez showed some success in Montreal, pitched well his first half here, then apparently was hiding an injury which messed up his mechanics. I am sure Mel worked with him a lot, but maybe he never fully admitted to the injury, and he still hasn't worked things out in AZ. I think he will still be a good pitcher, but he has to work through his problems, which may or may not be affected by an injury. I don't look at him as a guy who couldn't handle NY.

Jose Contreras was a big mistake from the start. You can't give big money to someone you've never actually seen pitch. He's another headcase. The first year he was on and off again hurt, sent down, etc, etc. I just don't see him as a guy who will ever win big time games in a big market. You can say Chicago is a big market, but the White Sox are so sheltered, it's like a small market. I think he'll have some nice games, like his one the other day, some bad ones. I don't even know who their pitching coach is offhand, but I'd say even if he has a nice year, it wasn't him making the difference. It was going to a team that doesn't really matter.

Felix Heredia sucks. What did you want Mel to do? Tell him to stop hitting every batter? Heredia needs to either be out of the league or on a team like he was previously on like Cincy, making very little money and bouncing around to new teams here and there. If he wasn't making big money last year, he would have been gone quickly. He got some key outs after the Yanks claimed him in 2003, then for some reason they grossly overpaid him. If Rick Peterson does somehow turn him around, I'd be shocked. The Mets likewise would have gotten rid of his after ST if he wasn't making so much money.



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Zidanman
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hasn't sturtze's turnaround, which isn't totally a turnaround until he puts up a solid season all around, been in part of help from gordon and rivera. that's what i was lead to believe, that sturtze has gotten helped by them.
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Mattingly23
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Mr. Sunshine
Apr 9 2005, 04:26 PM
mel f*cked doc up pretty bad and that was in the 80s

Wow. Beyond silliness. Absurdness.

Something called cocaine f*cked up Dwight Gooden, not Mel Stottlemyre. I can't believe the ridiculous things I read on these message boards.

Quote:
 
hasn't sturtze's turnaround, which isn't totally a turnaround until he puts up a solid season all around, been in part of help from gordon and rivera. that's what i was lead to believe, that sturtze has gotten helped by them.


Who knows, like I said, I don't give credit or blame to pitching coaches for changes in performances very easily. I was just breaking out a name since Mini473 wanted one. I thought I read he talked to Mel after that bad start and they found something, but I just went back to yesterday's Newsday to quote and it was actually a conversation he had with Torre right after that KC start.

For the record, I agree with you that Sturtze hasn't completely turned things around until he does it a full season. One of these days I fear the same shitty pitcher will be back, which is actually why I would rather not have him as a spot starter this season. I like him better in this role all the time, not moving back and forth like he did last year, and the year before in Toronto.
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Zidanman
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Mattingly23
Apr 9 2005, 03:48 PM
Mr. Sunshine
Apr 9 2005, 04:26 PM
mel f*cked doc up pretty bad and that was in the 80s

Wow. Beyond silliness. Absurdness.

Something called cocaine f*cked up Dwight Gooden, not Mel Stottlemyre. I can't believe the ridiculous things I read on these message boards.

you'll hear it in person too. it's not like a message board features talk foreign to real life conversation. i've heard plenty of idiots about sports face-to-face. the only thing the internet does is take away accountability and make people talk like tough guys.
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Yanksfan03
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Zidanman
Apr 9 2005, 04:48 PM
hasn't sturtze's turnaround, which isn't totally a turnaround until he puts up a solid season all around, been in part of help from gordon and rivera. that's what i was lead to believe, that sturtze has gotten helped by them.

Same here.

If Sturtze was helped by Mel though. Then congrats, that's the one pitcher Mel has helped. Wow, what a pitching coach! Sign him to an extension. :-|
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Mattingly23
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Zidanman
Apr 9 2005, 04:50 PM
Mattingly23
Apr 9 2005, 03:48 PM
Mr. Sunshine
Apr 9 2005, 04:26 PM
mel f*cked doc up pretty bad and that was in the 80s

Wow. Beyond silliness. Absurdness.

Something called cocaine f*cked up Dwight Gooden, not Mel Stottlemyre. I can't believe the ridiculous things I read on these message boards.

you'll hear it in person too. it's not like a message board features talk foreign to real life conversation. i've heard plenty of idiots about sports face-to-face. the only thing the internet does is take away accountability and make people talk like tough guys.

I'm being honest when I say none of the Yankee fans I know in person fly off the handle and say dumb blanket statements like on message boards. I've heard some dumb things in the stands at games, I will give you that. That's also why I felt the need to yell at those booing Giambi in his Stadium home debut. I don't put up with ridiculous things being said, whether it is in person or on the Internet.

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If Sturtze was helped by Mel though. Then congrats, that's the one pitcher Mel has helped. Wow, what a pitching coach! Sign him to an extension.


I never said that, wiseass. You obviously didn't read everything I said. I'm fine with him walking away at the end of the year, if he really does. Like I said, I don't go overboard giving credit or blame to pitching coaches, unless everyone is underperforming. This is, for the most part, a veteran staff, so I am fine with a veteran pitching coach. I will say it again. The only pitching coach that I see out there that makes a HUGE difference is Leo Mazzone. He might rock back and forth like a moron, but the guy does get great performances out of pitchers everyone else thought were done.
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Zidanman
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here's my question: a lot of pitchers with some great raw talent have needed their pitching coach to work out their mechanical flaws and help them meet their potential. i think, if there's one spot in baseball where you don't play, but affect the outcome the most, aside from manager, is the pitching coach. two guys pop up in my head. roy halladay and ben sheets. both guys were hugely talented, but were performing mediocre in the bigs. the toronto pitching coach broke down halladay's mechanics, started him from single a up, and now halladay's an elite pitcher. ben sheets was throwing low 90s to mid 90s for the first part of his career, because of some bad mechanics. whomever the pitching coach for milwaukee was, changed it up last year, and now sheets is one of the best in league.

my question is, would you have the confidence had sheets or halladay been yankees that stottlemyre would have fixed their mechanics and turned them into pitchers that have met their potential. i can easily say, since i have no tangible examples of guys he's turned around, that no, he would not.
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Yanksfan03
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I do agree with Matt23 on one thing though, Doc wasn't screwed up by Mel. He, like his good buddy Darryl Strawberry, did too many drugs. :no1:
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Mattingly23
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Zidanman
Apr 9 2005, 04:55 PM
here's my question: a lot of pitchers with some great raw talent have needed their pitching coach to work out their mechanical flaws and help them meet their potential. i think, if there's one spot in baseball where you don't play, but affect the outcome the most, aside from manager, is the pitching coach. two guys pop up in my head. roy halladay and ben sheets. both guys were hugely talented, but were performing mediocre in the bigs. the toronto pitching coach broke down halladay's mechanics, started him from single a up, and now halladay's an elite pitcher. ben sheets was throwing low 90s to mid 90s for the first part of his career, because of some bad mechanics. whomever the pitching coach for milwaukee was, changed it up last year, and now sheets is one of the best in league.

my question is, would you have the confidence had sheets or halladay been yankees that stottlemyre would have fixed their mechanics and turned them into pitchers that have met their potential. i can easily say, since i have no tangible examples of guys he's turned around, that no, he would not.

Unfortunately that is one of my main problems with the Yankees and their fans as a whole. The Yankees and their fans don't have the patience to break down a pitcher and start from scratch. Even when they tried to do it with Contreras, they rushed him back up here, and no progress was made. I am pretty sure Halladay spent almost a full year, if not the whole thing, back down in the minors before he was brought back to Toronto. I wish this organization would be more patient with some players, but they're not. So to answer your question, Sheets and Halladay would have been traded for sh*t like Jesse Barfield before they were broken down and built back up again. I hate it, but it is true.

You did bring up two great examples of how coaching helped though. It's just they happened in very different organizations than the Yankees.
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TheOne
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Mattingly23
Apr 9 2005, 04:48 PM
Mr. Sunshine
Apr 9 2005, 04:26 PM
mel f*cked doc up pretty bad and that was in the 80s

Wow. Beyond silliness. Absurdness.

Something called cocaine f*cked up Dwight Gooden, not Mel Stottlemyre. I can't believe the ridiculous things I read on these message boards.


Quote:
 
hasn't sturtze's turnaround, which isn't totally a turnaround until he puts up a solid season all around, been in part of help from gordon and rivera. that's what i was lead to believe, that sturtze has gotten helped by them.


Who knows, like I said, I don't give credit or blame to pitching coaches for changes in performances very easily. I was just breaking out a name since Mini473 wanted one. I thought I read he talked to Mel after that bad start and they found something, but I just went back to yesterday's Newsday to quote and it was actually a conversation he had with Torre right after that KC start.

For the record, I agree with you that Sturtze hasn't completely turned things around until he does it a full season. One of these days I fear the same shitty pitcher will be back, which is actually why I would rather not have him as a spot starter this season. I like him better in this role all the time, not moving back and forth like he did last year, and the year before in Toronto.

That's sunshine for you, he doesn't know what he's talking about!!!
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amit
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The best pitching coach in the Yankee organization is Gil Patterson, who's in Columbus right now. Patterson is the one who turned Halladay into a Cy Young winner and Ted Lilly to an All-Star.

I hope he's the PC next season.
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Yanksfan03
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TheOne
Apr 9 2005, 06:13 PM
Mattingly23
Apr 9 2005, 04:48 PM
Mr. Sunshine
Apr 9 2005, 04:26 PM
mel f*cked doc up pretty bad and that was in the 80s

Wow. Beyond silliness. Absurdness.

Something called cocaine f*cked up Dwight Gooden, not Mel Stottlemyre. I can't believe the ridiculous things I read on these message boards.


Quote:
 
hasn't sturtze's turnaround, which isn't totally a turnaround until he puts up a solid season all around, been in part of help from gordon and rivera. that's what i was lead to believe, that sturtze has gotten helped by them.


Who knows, like I said, I don't give credit or blame to pitching coaches for changes in performances very easily. I was just breaking out a name since Mini473 wanted one. I thought I read he talked to Mel after that bad start and they found something, but I just went back to yesterday's Newsday to quote and it was actually a conversation he had with Torre right after that KC start.

For the record, I agree with you that Sturtze hasn't completely turned things around until he does it a full season. One of these days I fear the same shitty pitcher will be back, which is actually why I would rather not have him as a spot starter this season. I like him better in this role all the time, not moving back and forth like he did last year, and the year before in Toronto.

That's sunshine for you, he doesn't know what he's talking about!!!

Just wait... Victor Zambrano for 2005 NL Cy Young, I'm telling you, it WILL happen. And Beltran will hit .230. :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
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TheOne
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Yanksfan03
Apr 9 2005, 06:56 PM
TheOne
Apr 9 2005, 06:13 PM
Mattingly23
Apr 9 2005, 04:48 PM
Mr. Sunshine
Apr 9 2005, 04:26 PM
mel f*cked doc up pretty bad and that was in the 80s

Wow. Beyond silliness. Absurdness.

Something called cocaine f*cked up Dwight Gooden, not Mel Stottlemyre. I can't believe the ridiculous things I read on these message boards.


Quote:
 
hasn't sturtze's turnaround, which isn't totally a turnaround until he puts up a solid season all around, been in part of help from gordon and rivera. that's what i was lead to believe, that sturtze has gotten helped by them.


Who knows, like I said, I don't give credit or blame to pitching coaches for changes in performances very easily. I was just breaking out a name since Mini473 wanted one. I thought I read he talked to Mel after that bad start and they found something, but I just went back to yesterday's Newsday to quote and it was actually a conversation he had with Torre right after that KC start.

For the record, I agree with you that Sturtze hasn't completely turned things around until he does it a full season. One of these days I fear the same shitty pitcher will be back, which is actually why I would rather not have him as a spot starter this season. I like him better in this role all the time, not moving back and forth like he did last year, and the year before in Toronto.

That's sunshine for you, he doesn't know what he's talking about!!!

Just wait... Victor Zambrano for 2005 NL Cy Young, I'm telling you, it WILL happen. And Beltran will hit .230. :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Hilarious!!!
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Mattingly23
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amit
Apr 9 2005, 06:29 PM
The best pitching coach in the Yankee organization is Gil Patterson, who's in Columbus right now. Patterson is the one who turned Halladay into a Cy Young winner and Ted Lilly to an All-Star.

I hope he's the PC next season.

Yeah, they hired Patterson late, or else I am sure he'd have either Neil Allen or Rich Monteleone's position up here. It'll probably come down to Allen or Patterson next season. Lilly did pitch well down the stretch in Oakland the previous season though, didn't he?
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