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problem with mo?
Topic Started: Mar 14 2005, 10:23 PM (663 Views)
Yanksfan03
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cmnyy
Mar 15 2005, 06:38 PM
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Sure, he's one of the great Yankees of all time. But the time is coming where we need to realize that Mo is now just a good closer at best and no longer on a different level than everybody else.


I'm not even saying that I disagree '03. But he still is one of the best, and I'm still glad that's he's the guy we're going to war with.

I'm not saying Mo is the worst option in the world, but I don't think he's the best closer in the game anymore.
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Yanksfan03
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Mantlemurcer
Mar 15 2005, 06:01 PM
Yanksfan03
Mar 15 2005, 04:20 PM
Mantlemurcer
Mar 15 2005, 05:16 PM
Yanksfan03
Mar 15 2005, 04:07 PM
Mantlemurcer
Mar 15 2005, 05:02 PM
Strider
Mar 15 2005, 03:54 PM
MM, if you're gonna bust balls because he left out "...one inning per appearance", then come on. How many innings did Rivera pitch? Guarantee it was under 100. Jeez-Louise-sweet Mary Joseph-lawdy lord-oh my guh'ness-heavenly father.....he pitched in 74 games. GASP! And to think, he's only making $10M per season. We're running a child labor sweat shop.  :crybaby:

It wasn't about him leaving out 1 inning per appearance, dumbass. Yeah, I called you dumbass.

The point is that the constant grind over the years has to catch up to you and Torre overworked him last year.

Yeah, the constant grind of throwing 95 innings a year tops has really started to take its toll. Wow, was he ever overused. :-|

This post proves how little you know about baseball...

and Olerud broke a bone.

Yeah, I know nothing about baseball. :-|

You base 90% of your opinion on your emotional reaction at that moment.

We're talking about a guy who averages less than 100 ip per season. We're not talking about guys like RJ, Schilling, Johnson, Clemens etc..., We're talking about guys who only have to go 3 innings an outing at most. I have a tough time with the fact that a guy who pitches less than 100 innings a year can break down as quickly as those other guys. It just makes the guy look like a wimp. I feel that way about pretty much every closer.
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Zidanman
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most closers are closers since they couldn't cut it as a starter. plus, since they are coming in for an inning or two throwing as hard as they can, they generally aren't a durable position
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Strider
Mar 15 2005, 04:11 PM
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Torre overworked him last year.


Every year, that same thing is said. Would you be happy with 25 appearances and 25 innings pitched? For $10M, I didn't know 74 games (1 inning pitched in the majority of them) out of 162 was too much to ask. Excuse me for being a dumbass.

And I won't pay the comment any mind, MM. We both know that you hope to have a son just like me someday.


You mean great great grandson don't you stryder? :D
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bballfreak

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Yanksfan03
Mar 15 2005, 07:04 PM
Mantlemurcer
Mar 15 2005, 06:01 PM
Yanksfan03
Mar 15 2005, 04:20 PM
Mantlemurcer
Mar 15 2005, 05:16 PM
Yanksfan03
Mar 15 2005, 04:07 PM
Mantlemurcer
Mar 15 2005, 05:02 PM
Strider
Mar 15 2005, 03:54 PM
MM, if you're gonna bust balls because he left out "...one inning per appearance", then come on. How many innings did Rivera pitch? Guarantee it was under 100. Jeez-Louise-sweet Mary Joseph-lawdy lord-oh my guh'ness-heavenly father.....he pitched in 74 games. GASP! And to think, he's only making $10M per season. We're running a child labor sweat shop.  :crybaby:

It wasn't about him leaving out 1 inning per appearance, dumbass. Yeah, I called you dumbass.

The point is that the constant grind over the years has to catch up to you and Torre overworked him last year.

Yeah, the constant grind of throwing 95 innings a year tops has really started to take its toll. Wow, was he ever overused. :-|

This post proves how little you know about baseball...

and Olerud broke a bone.

Yeah, I know nothing about baseball. :-|

You base 90% of your opinion on your emotional reaction at that moment.

We're talking about a guy who averages less than 100 ip per season. We're not talking about guys like RJ, Schilling, Johnson, Clemens etc..., We're talking about guys who only have to go 3 innings an outing at most. I have a tough time with the fact that a guy who pitches less than 100 innings a year can break down as quickly as those other guys. It just makes the guy look like a wimp. I feel that way about pretty much every closer.


RJ, Clemens and Schilling pitch once in every five days while Rivera has to be loose and ready to pitch in almost every game. How many times have RJ or the other guys you mentioned pitched in back to back games? Once or twice in their careers? Rivera has done it 21 times last season. He has also pitched three games in row 7 times and four games in a row twice. Thats just last season. Who knows how many times he has done it in his career? That definetly takes a toll on a pitcher.

Closers have a much shorter period when they are truly "effective". Thats just a fact. Its amazing Rivera has even lasted this long. He is definetly not the pitcher he once was but he is still damn good.
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Mar 15 2005, 12:09 AM
We don't need a damn scouting report to know what Wang throws. Before MM brought him up, I had never heard of the guy but I know he throws 87-88 mph with no movement and he doesn't have a breaking ball. How? Every pitcher in our minor leagues is Paul Quantrill w/o the experience.

[size=14]Wrong, Again ! [/size]

Read 'em and weap Stryder:

Suddenly it happened. Chien-Ming Wang once again became the guy that they once thought he would be. It may have gradually began in AA Trenton but it was obvious when he pitched for the Clippers. All of a sudden, he was that big time pitcher that the Yankees thought he would be. He is throwing 96 MPH again with that good slider and incredible command. However, it is probably more so that we just forget that, after undergoing the serious surgery that he did, the recovery time for returning to complete form is over two years. Well, the real Chien-Ming Wang is back and the Yankees are thrilled, with good reason. In Columbus, Wang compiled a 2.01 ERA and posted a 5-1 record. The lanky righty has a chance to make the big club at some point in 2005 after his dominating performance at AAA last season...

But, once he learned to trust his naturally electric heater, his success increased immensely in 2004, especially when you have a fastball that ranges anywhere from 92-95 MPH, touching 97-98 MPH on several occasions. But, the thing that impresses teammates and coaches about Wang is that there have been multiple cases in which he's been noted as reaching velocities of 97 MPH in the eighth inning. ...

Out of all his pitches, though, the one he does business with is his splitter. When, he is on, it is is nearly unhittable. If he can keep it consistent, it will be his biggest weapon against lefty hitters...

"Tiger" Wang has strikeout potential to go along with great control. Righties look foolish off him but getting lefties out will be the key to his future. - Pinstripesplus

:smirk:


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If Wang could turn out to be a great pitcher for us that would be nice. But how many good players has our farm system developed since '96?
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Mar 15 2005, 05:30 PM
:please:

And you know you can't knock Strider's arguments. These threads always end the same way: Strider getting in the last word then you (or whoever) giving up. Either you think I'm incorigible or you realize I've got the sh*t on smash and you can't debate my points. It should be the latter. Even the great Mattingly23 shut the f*ck up when I cornered him in our Joe Torre (cuz we've had many arguments) argument. I think you people just need to give it up and start agreeing with me. You can't prove me wrong.

:please: I don't want to make a fool out of ya.
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Mar 15 2005, 11:07 PM
Strider
Mar 15 2005, 05:30 PM
:please:

And you know you can't knock Strider's arguments. These threads always end the same way: Strider getting in the last word then you (or whoever) giving up. Either you think I'm incorigible or you realize I've got the sh*t on smash and you can't debate my points. It should be the latter. Even the great Mattingly23 shut the f*ck up when I cornered him in our Joe Torre (cuz we've had many arguments) argument. I think you people just need to give it up and start agreeing with me. You can't prove me wrong.

:please: I don't want to make a fool out of ya.

:laugh:
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Gategem
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I am not a Yankee fan even though I don’t hate them either. So I can be objective about this. Mo is the greatest closer in the history of the game. Other teams have to change their game because they know that if they are behind in the ninth inning and Mo’s coming in the game is over for them. Mo has been consistently super year after year. Most relievers give you a couple of great years and then they are garbage for awhile and then maybe they bounce back. If I was starting a team Mo would be my closer. But the guy is getting older and sooner or later he is going to break down. The guy has to be ready every day and he can’t sit on his ass or exercise for four days until the next start. You also have to add the warm-up time to the actual innings he pitches. If Mo goes down for the year you may be looking up at the Orioles this year.

BTW most pitchers don't have the mental makeup to do what Mo does.
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cmnyy
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Mar 15 2005, 08:18 PM
Strider
Mar 15 2005, 12:09 AM
We don't need a damn scouting report to know what Wang throws. Before MM brought him up, I had never heard of the guy but I know he throws 87-88 mph with no movement and he doesn't have a breaking ball. How? Every pitcher in our minor leagues is Paul Quantrill w/o the experience.

[size=14]Wrong, Again ! [/size]

Read 'em and weap Stryder:

Suddenly it happened. Chien-Ming Wang once again became the guy that they once thought he would be. It may have gradually began in AA Trenton but it was obvious when he pitched for the Clippers. All of a sudden, he was that big time pitcher that the Yankees thought he would be. He is throwing 96 MPH again with that good slider and incredible command. However, it is probably more so that we just forget that, after undergoing the serious surgery that he did, the recovery time for returning to complete form is over two years. Well, the real Chien-Ming Wang is back and the Yankees are thrilled, with good reason. In Columbus, Wang compiled a 2.01 ERA and posted a 5-1 record. The lanky righty has a chance to make the big club at some point in 2005 after his dominating performance at AAA last season...

But, once he learned to trust his naturally electric heater, his success increased immensely in 2004, especially when you have a fastball that ranges anywhere from 92-95 MPH, touching 97-98 MPH on several occasions. But, the thing that impresses teammates and coaches about Wang is that there have been multiple cases in which he's been noted as reaching velocities of 97 MPH in the eighth inning. ...

Out of all his pitches, though, the one he does business with is his splitter. When, he is on, it is is nearly unhittable. If he can keep it consistent, it will be his biggest weapon against lefty hitters...

"Tiger" Wang has strikeout potential to go along with great control. Righties look foolish off him but getting lefties out will be the key to his future. - Pinstripesplus

:smirk:


Fu<kin' A! You have to love that scouting report. (I still haven't seen him pitch though.) That's the best scouting report I've seen on one of our guys in a hell of a long time. Wow!

:rock: :rock: :rock:


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cmnyy
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Gategem
Mar 15 2005, 11:14 PM
I am not a Yankee fan even though I don’t hate them either. So I can be objective about this. Mo is the greatest closer in the history of the game. Other teams have to change their game because they know that if they are behind in the ninth inning and Mo’s coming in the game is over for them. Mo has been consistently super year after year. Most relievers give you a couple of great years and then they are garbage for awhile and then maybe they bounce back. If I was starting a team Mo would be my closer. But the guy is getting older and sooner or later he is going to break down. The guy has to be ready every day and he can’t sit on his ass or exercise for four days until the next start. You also have to add the warm-up time to the actual innings he pitches. If Mo goes down for the year you may be looking up at the Orioles this year.

BTW most pitchers don't have the mental makeup to do what Mo does.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :rock: :rock: :rock:



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YB, you missed my post that followed MM posting the scouting report. I said that I don't care what they say. Wasn't Irabu the Japanese Roger Clemens? Wasn't Kaz Matsui supposed to have a stronger arm than Bernie Williams? And just last year - weren't we told that Scottie Proctor could gas it up to 100 mph? Where was that sh*t? You can wipe up baby sh*t with those scouting reports. WANG THROWS 87-88 MPH WITH NO MOVEMENT AND HE DOESN'T HAVE A BREAKING BALL.

^ I hope he tears something in his arm and comes back 10 notches short on the fastball. Just to prove me right.
------------------------------------------------------------
Grown Drew - make a fool out of Strider? Not in your wildest dreams. The smart part of your brain is saying, "Give it up old fella, the young boy is right. You know it," but the sunshineyness is what's forcing you to fight it.
--------------------------------------------------------
CM, you're right about what you had said. You said something like "could be" or "you can make an argument for". But that's still wrong. Derek hasn't been the best player on his team in 5 years.
------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
 
If Mo goes down for the year you may be looking up at the Orioles this year.


:no2: The Yankees might get more wins from the starting rotation alone than the Orioles have total. The Yanks might be the only team in baseball that could afford to lose any 1 player and still be a lock for 90 wins. The most indispensable player right now is probably Randy Johnson and last year, we won 101 games without him. For us to stink enough to be looking up at the O's, that would mean that every save would be blown without Rivera. No.
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not saying dump Mo or anything like that. We don't have a replacement and there is no "he's better and we can just sign him". He's what we've got and I accept that. He's still one of the best (atleast at compiling good #s in the regular season off the D'Rays and Tigers). But all that "When Mo is in, its game over" sh*t is soooo done with me. Yes and I WOULD take Gagne over him.
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Yanksfan03
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Mar 16 2005, 01:44 AM
YB, you missed my post that followed MM posting the scouting report. I said that I don't care what they say. Wasn't Irabu the Japanese Roger Clemens? Wasn't Kaz Matsui supposed to have a stronger arm than Bernie Williams? And just last year - weren't we told that Scottie Proctor could gas it up to 100 mph? Where was that sh*t? You can wipe up baby sh*t with those scouting reports. WANG THROWS 87-88 MPH WITH NO MOVEMENT AND HE DOESN'T HAVE A BREAKING BALL.

^ I hope he tears something in his arm and comes back 10 notches short on the fastball. Just to prove me right.
------------------------------------------------------------
Grown Drew - make a fool out of Strider? Not in your wildest dreams. The smart part of your brain is saying, "Give it up old fella, the young boy is right. You know it," but the sunshineyness is what's forcing you to fight it.
--------------------------------------------------------
CM, you're right about what you had said. You said something like "could be" or "you can make an argument for". But that's still wrong. Derek hasn't been the best player on his team in 5 years.
------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
 
If Mo goes down for the year you may be looking up at the Orioles this year.


:no2: The Yankees might get more wins from the starting rotation alone than the Orioles have total. The Yanks might be the only team in baseball that could afford to lose any 1 player and still be a lock for 90 wins. The most indispensable player right now is probably Randy Johnson and last year, we won 101 games without him. For us to stink enough to be looking up at the O's, that would mean that every save would be blown without Rivera. No.
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not saying dump Mo or anything like that. We don't have a replacement and there is no "he's better and we can just sign him". He's what we've got and I accept that. He's still one of the best (atleast at compiling good #s in the regular season off the D'Rays and Tigers). But all that "When Mo is in, its game over" sh*t is soooo done with me. Yes and I WOULD take Gagne over him.

Yup, Mo still does a good job for us, I just don't celebrate like the game is over when he comes in like so many other people do.
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Mantlemurcer
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Mar 16 2005, 12:44 AM
YB, you missed my post that followed MM posting the scouting report. I said that I don't care what they say. Wasn't Irabu the Japanese Roger Clemens? Wasn't Kaz Matsui supposed to have a stronger arm than Bernie Williams? And just last year - weren't we told that Scottie Proctor could gas it up to 100 mph? Where was that sh*t? You can wipe up baby sh*t with those scouting reports. WANG THROWS 87-88 MPH WITH NO MOVEMENT AND HE DOESN'T HAVE A BREAKING BALL.

^ I hope he tears something in his arm and comes back 10 notches short on the fastball. Just to prove me right.
------------------------------------------------------------
Grown Drew - make a fool out of Strider? Not in your wildest dreams. The smart part of your brain is saying, "Give it up old fella, the young boy is right. You know it," but the sunshineyness is what's forcing you to fight it.
--------------------------------------------------------

A. Irabu was touted by the Yankees themselves, Steinbrenner in particular (though he later blamed his "Baseball People")
B. No one knew anything about Kaz Matsui, least of all the Mets. They did a rotten scouting job.
C. Yeah, Scott Proctor can hit 100. Big deal. Notice, no one ever said he had good stuff, just fast stuff. It was the Yankees way of trying to make believe we got something good back.
D. The Wanger is getting good scouting from other teams and legitimate sources (besides me). This isn't Yankee front office hype.

E. Never underestimate your elders Strizzle. They can open a can of whoop ass faster than you can get the wrapper off a ring-ding.
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Gategem
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Mar 16 2005, 12:44 AM
------------------------------------------------------
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If Mo goes down for the year you may be looking up at the Orioles this year.


Yes and I WOULD take Gagne over him.

You don't know how Gagne is going to pitch under the pressure of pitching for the Yankees in New York. You don't even know how Gagne is going to do this year. Except for Mo most top relief pitches have some good years and then some bad years.

Okay I exaggerated with the Orioles. But your not going to beat out Boston without him and certainly ain’t going anywhere in the playoffs without him. Wasn’t it Yogi that said if you ain’t got a bullpen you ain’t got nothing or something like that.

BTW is Yogi the only manager that ever got fired from two clubs the year after he had his team in the WS?
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Strider
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But your not going to beat out Boston without him


Yeah, he really is the difference against Boston.
---------------------------------------------------------

Scott Proctorr has never hit 100 mph. He was usually around 94 and the highest he hit was 97. And no he wasn't holding back on velocity to focus on location and movement. He had no location or movement. He was just chuckin' it like Bret Favre.

People knew about Kaz. He was a superstar. The first time he was mentioned over here, it was on the Yankees board. We were hearing about all his suitors. Everyone thought he could pick a ball up and throw. Everyone thought he had played SS before. They were wrong.

A lot of prospects get good reports from the scouts. What percentage of the "can't miss so let's all hop on the bandwagon and start sucking that dick from now" blue chippers become All Stars? I told you from the first time I heard his name that he'd suck. You can't be a good player with the name Wang. Remember the Chinese David Robinson, Wang Xia Xia? It can't happen. Just like Melky. He'll be a career .217 hitter. He throws 87-88 mph with no movement and he doesn't have a breaking ball.

Wang will get jerked faster than an old man can fall asleep during sex. :please:

Don't doubt my "oraclicity". How many times have I been right? And ya'll still ain't giving me my credit for the Jeff Weaver thing. Recently, I told you how the Sheffield/Giambi thing would go. When they were having discussions about replay, I told you exactly how that would conclude. On the button! Just AX Timo. AX HomeboyYank about what we - not joo - had said about Nick Johnson. AX Amit what we - not joo - had said about Juan Pierre LONG before everyone else hopped the J-Pie wagon.

[size=7]WANG WILL BLOW! [/size]
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Mar 16 2005, 08:21 AM
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But your not going to beat out Boston without him


Yeah, he really is the difference against Boston.
---------------------------------------------------------

Scott Proctorr has never hit 100 mph. He was usually around 94 and the highest he hit was 97. And no he wasn't holding back on velocity to focus on location and movement. He had no location or movement. He was just chuckin' it like Bret Favre.

People knew about Kaz. He was a superstar. The first time he was mentioned over here, it was on the Yankees board. We were hearing about all his suitors. Everyone thought he could pick a ball up and throw. Everyone thought he had played SS before. They were wrong.

A lot of prospects get good reports from the scouts. What percentage of the "can't miss so let's all hop on the bandwagon and start sucking that dick from now" blue chippers become All Stars? I told you from the first time I heard his name that he'd suck. You can't be a good player with the name Wang. Remember the Chinese David Robinson, Wang Xia Xia? It can't happen. Just like Melky. He'll be a career .217 hitter. He throws 87-88 mph with no movement and he doesn't have a breaking ball.

Wang will get jerked faster than an old man can fall asleep during sex. :please:

Don't doubt my "oraclicity". How many times have I been right? And ya'll still ain't giving me my credit for the Jeff Weaver thing. Recently, I told you how the Sheffield/Giambi thing would go. When they were having discussions about replay, I told you exactly how that would conclude. On the button! Just AX Timo. AX HomeboyYank about what we - not joo - had said about Nick Johnson. AX Amit what we - not joo - had said about Juan Pierre LONG before everyone else hopped the J-Pie wagon.

[size=7]WANG WILL BLOW! [/size]

:please: Silliness by the legend himself, Stryyyyyyyyyder. :strider:

Wang will be an all star within 5 years, $bank$ on it . . . :thumbup2:
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Strider
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YB, there's a better chance of your wang being a star in five years. I guarantee that he'll stink. Take that to the bank and make a withdrawl with it.

I didn't become a legend by being wrong. AX about me!
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Mar 15 2005, 12:15 AM
Zidanman
Mar 15 2005, 12:13 AM
what does this wanger throw? you never know. he could become a valuable yankee in the pen

Our minor leaguers are all trash, each and every one of them, Wang included. I don't want to see that guy on the Yankees until call ups in September, and even then, I still don't want to see him on the mound.

:laugh:
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Mar 15 2005, 05:19 PM

And for all of his post season success, Mo has also had his share of failures. You can all brush what Gagne's consecutive streak under the rug, but I'd take him on the Yankees over Mo any day at this point.

Will I cheer for Mo at an old timer's day or whatever after he retires? Sure, he's one of the great Yankees of all time. But the time is coming where we need to realize that Mo is now just a good closer at best and no longer on a different level than everybody else. And you can be sure I'll boo him when he costs us a game, because I like to win. Especially against the Red Sox.

There are a lot of crazy things in this thread, but I think the bolded line takes the cake.
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Mar 16 2005, 11:14 PM
YB, there's a better chance of your wang being a star in five years. I guarantee that he'll stink. Take that to the bank and make a withdrawl with it.

I didn't become a legend by being wrong. AX about me!

:smirk:
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Mantlemurcer
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Mar 16 2005, 11:14 PM
YB, there's a better chance of your wang being a star in five years. I guarantee that he'll stink. Take that to the bank and make a withdrawl with it.

I didn't become a legend by being wrong. AX about me!

:D
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Mantlemurcer
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Jun 18 2008, 01:23 PM
Yanksfan03
Mar 15 2005, 05:19 PM

And for all of his post season success, Mo has also had his share of failures. You can all brush what Gagne's consecutive streak under the rug, but I'd take him on the Yankees over Mo any day at this point.

Will I cheer for Mo at an old timer's day or whatever after he retires?  Sure, he's one of the great Yankees of all time.  But the time is coming where we need to realize that Mo is now just a good closer at best and no longer on a different level than everybody else.  And you can be sure I'll boo him when he costs us a game, because I like to win.  Especially against the Red Sox.

There are a lot of crazy things in this thread, but I think the bolded line takes the cake.

Not :shocked:
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Yanks473
Jun 18 2008, 04:27 PM
Strider
Mar 16 2005, 11:14 PM
YB, there's a better chance of your wang being a star in five years. I guarantee that he'll stink. Take that to the bank and make a withdrawl with it.

I didn't become a legend by being wrong. AX about me!

:smirk:

The f*ck you talkin' bout? I was right. He ain't pitching now, is he?
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Jun 18 2008, 04:27 PM
Strider
Mar 16 2005, 11:14 PM
YB, there's a better chance of your wang being a star in five years. I guarantee that he'll stink. Take that to the bank and make a withdrawl with it.

I didn't become a legend by being wrong. AX about me!

:smirk:


Yo Stryder, You're my boy, but you was wrong on both counts. Just ask my wife. :peace:
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Jun 18 2008, 01:17 PM
Yanksfan03
Mar 15 2005, 12:15 AM
Zidanman
Mar 15 2005, 12:13 AM
what does this wanger throw? you never know. he could become a valuable yankee in the pen

Our minor leaguers are all trash, each and every one of them, Wang included. I don't want to see that guy on the Yankees until call ups in September, and even then, I still don't want to see him on the mound.

:laugh:

Old school YF03 baby, I was real crazy that year.
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Strider
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Jun 18 2008, 06:36 PM
Yanks473
Jun 18 2008, 04:27 PM
Strider
Mar 16 2005, 11:14 PM
YB, there's a better chance of your wang being a star in five years. I guarantee that he'll stink. Take that to the bank and make a withdrawl with it.

I didn't become a legend by being wrong. AX about me!

:smirk:


Yo Stryder, You're my boy, but you was wrong on both counts. Just ask my wife. :peace:

Both counts. Your wife doesn't think your wang is a star?
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Strider
Jun 18 2008, 07:07 PM
YankeeBaseball
Jun 18 2008, 06:36 PM
Yanks473
Jun 18 2008, 04:27 PM
Strider
Mar 16 2005, 11:14 PM
YB, there's a better chance of your wang being a star in five years. I guarantee that he'll stink. Take that to the bank and make a withdrawl with it.

I didn't become a legend by being wrong. AX about me!

:smirk:


Yo Stryder, You're my boy, but you was wrong on both counts. Just ask my wife. :peace:

Both counts. Your wife doesn't think your wang is a star?

My Wang's an All-Star, as is da Wanger (when healthy) :D
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Giambi_MVP_25
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Quiet, you'll get BC excited.
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