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It's a results buisness
Topic Started: Oct 16 2012, 10:17 PM (2,680 Views)
dogbox
Evo-Stik Premier
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It's a results business football & although I've only seen 5 matches this season due to work commitments & seen a couple of good performances 1 excellent away at Mickleovers & Saturday against Kings Lynn was good although lost. We got to ask is Shaun experienced enough to get us out of this & if so how many more games do we give before hitting the panick button. We've got to start winning or a change will be needed sooner than we thought.
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craftman
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Conference National
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dogbox
Oct 16 2012, 11:17 PM
It's a results business football & although I've only seen 5 matches this season due to work commitments & seen a couple of good performances 1 excellent away at Mickleovers & Saturday against Kings Lynn was good although lost. We got to ask is Shaun experienced enough to get us out of this & if so how many more games do we give before hitting the panick button. We've got to start winning or a change will be needed sooner than we thought.

Another poor night , and yes questions are bound to be asked about the management !

I've personally yet to see a win or enough to believe the club will get out of this predicament !

The team need a leader on the pitch and maybe one off .

Fingers crossed !

:huh:
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AlanL
Administrator
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I honestly can't see where the next point is coming from - bottom of the league having played more games than the teams around us, six straight defeats and early exits from both FA competitions speaks for itself.

I guess it comes down to the question as to whether or not we have a better option to get us out of this mess.

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Johnno
Evo-Stik Premier
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Isn't it fair to say that any manager is only going to be as good as the players he has at his disposal?

Without being harsh on the entire squad you can easily conclude that there simply isnt enough decent players available to Shaun currently at Grove. The question is what can be done about that?

Is there the budget available to increase the number of players in the squad with proven capability at this level?

If not can young players who have the ability to step up be attractewd to Grove?

I did note at the start of the season that following the disruptions of the summer that Grove were at the same crossroads that Castle found themselves in the previous year after the Stafford Ranger exodus.They went one way and Grove seem to have gone for the old heads route.

Its early days to judge which way has proved more succesful but the signs to date dont bode well.
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dabber
Staffs County League
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Johnno
Oct 17 2012, 08:37 AM
Isn't it fair to say that any manager is only going to be as good as the players he has at his disposal?

Without being harsh on the entire squad you can easily conclude that there simply isnt enough decent players available to Shaun currently at Grove. The question is what can be done about that?

Is there the budget available to increase the number of players in the squad with proven capability at this level?

If not can young players who have the ability to step up be attractewd to Grove?

I did note at the start of the season that following the disruptions of the summer that Grove were at the same crossroads that Castle found themselves in the previous year after the Stafford Ranger exodus.They went one way and Grove seem to have gone for the old heads route.

Its early days to judge which way has proved more succesful but the signs to date dont bode well.

I think that is being disrespectful to some of the players at Grove.

The likes of Dyson, P.Taylor, A.Taylor, Kinsey, Shotton, Curley, Donnelly, Dove are all more than capable of playing at Evo South level.

If you look at relative budgets, then Leek are getting less value for money than Grove are at present.....
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AlanL
Administrator
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It's a strange one - as Dabber points out, the players we have managed to sign would probably be considered in excess of the fans' expectations at the start of the season. Unfortunately, results have not, which is all that matters in the end.

Hitting the bottom of the league needs to be a wake-up call. As luck would have it, the fixtures have conspired to mean that even a point on Saturday will lift us off it. Loughborough are hardly going to be fearing the trip though after scoring for fun against us a few weeks back
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holly10
Playing in the park
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I think that is being disrespectful to some of the players at Grove.

The likes of Dyson, P.Taylor, A.Taylor, Kinsey, Shotton, Curley, Donnelly, Dove are all more than capable of playing at Evo South level.

If you look at relative budgets, then Leek are getting less value for money than Grove are at present.....

I am employed, the same as the players are, if I did my job as poorly as the players are doing theirs I would lose my job.
There is such a big difference to "more than capable of playing at Evo South level" and just turning up for the game!!
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dabber
Staffs County League
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holly10
Oct 17 2012, 11:28 AM
I am employed, the same as the players are, if I did my job as poorly as the players are doing theirs I would lose my job.
There is such a big difference to "more than capable of playing at Evo South level" and just turning up for the game!!

Holly,

I understand fully what you are saying - once the players step on to the pitch it is largely down to them how they perform. But knowing the likes of Andy Taylor as I do, I am sure he is not simply 'turning up' for games -

Ultimately, it is a manager's responsibility is to get the best out of the players he or she has at their disposal - at any level of football.
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AlanL
Administrator
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Indeed, I can't see Andy Taylor ever giving less than 100%, plus you only have to look at match reports from opposition sites to see how well Liam has been playing this season.

I have some sympathy for Shaun as due to the happenings over the summer we were always behind with the preparations for this season. Few could disagree that the squad we have now has more quality than it did in August, the additions of the likes of Kevin Street and Danny Griggs are very welcome. But the rest of the league isn't going to wait while we get ourselves in order.

It's not a disaster yet - we're only 6 points behind Castle and they're 8th, but we have to start getting some points, it doesn't matter how.
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dogbox
Evo-Stik Premier
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I don't think any of the players just turn up as I have no doubt they all turn up for the their love of just playing football & that shows because if it was for money they wouldn't be at Kidsgrove. The commitment the players & let's be fair the management has been second to none & as Alan says 2 wins & your halfway up the table but if them wins don't come then a change would at least have to be thought about.
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reece1
Premier League
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I havnt seen any team so far that stands out, like Alan said, two wins and we are back up there, let's hope by Tuesday night things look rosey. Either way Tuesday night will show us clearly the situation for the season .
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Johnno
Evo-Stik Premier
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dabber
Oct 17 2012, 09:26 AM
Johnno
Oct 17 2012, 08:37 AM
Isn't it fair to say that any manager is only going to be as good as the players he has at his disposal?

Without being harsh on the entire squad you can easily conclude that there simply isnt enough decent players available to Shaun currently at Grove. The question is what can be done about that?

Is there the budget available to increase the number of players in the squad with proven capability at this level?

If not can young players who have the ability to step up be attractewd to Grove?

I did note at the start of the season that following the disruptions of the summer that Grove were at the same crossroads that Castle found themselves in the previous year after the Stafford Ranger exodus.They went one way and Grove seem to have gone for the old heads route.

Its early days to judge which way has proved more succesful but the signs to date dont bode well.

I think that is being disrespectful to some of the players at Grove.

The likes of Dyson, P.Taylor, A.Taylor, Kinsey, Shotton, Curley, Donnelly, Dove are all more than capable of playing at Evo South level.

If you look at relative budgets, then Leek are getting less value for money than Grove are at present.....

Well I dont feel that is any disrespect at all. Certainly none intended.

Regardless of my own or anyone elses opinion of the players you list that is only, if my maths doesn't fail me, eight players. Thats hardly enough in a starting eleven to get a decent run of results if they are all available and firing on all cylinders at the same time.

There lies the problem in my opinion.

Its all a bit short on the quality in any depth to compete front which takes me back to my original question regarding how to address the situation.
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Hoover
Playing in the park
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Johno I've been around n/l football for a long time, the only way to address a situation like you are talking about IMO is ££££. And im not meaning silly money on players who have dropped a couple of levels and just want a decent pay day and dont really give a crap about the TEAM.
Kidsgrove a re lucky (or not! If you look at current position) that there are a lot of players who love football and respect the management team enough to turn out for them and give everything they have got on a Saturday/Tuesday. Currently results are not good and those with any brain would welcome some extra quality to gel together a team that with a bit of luck and a couple of less mistakes would be well up the table and this thread would not appear.

Therefore; Quality=££££ simple equation

In my oppinion and experience that is the answer to your question.
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Johnno
Evo-Stik Premier
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Hoover
Oct 17 2012, 06:54 PM
Johno I've been around n/l football for a long time, the only way to address a situation like you are talking about IMO is ££££. And im not meaning silly money on players who have dropped a couple of levels and just want a decent pay day and dont really give a crap about the TEAM.
Kidsgrove a re lucky (or not! If you look at current position) that there are a lot of players who love football and respect the management team enough to turn out for them and give everything they have got on a Saturday/Tuesday. Currently results are not good and those with any brain would welcome some extra quality to gel together a team that with a bit of luck and a couple of less mistakes would be well up the table and this thread would not appear.

Therefore; Quality=££££ simple equation

In my oppinion and experience that is the answer to your question.

I completely understand the logic but there is a but.

What do clubs do who cant spend the extra cash you talk of? Perhaps the question should be; where does Groves budget sit in comparison to other clubs?

Im not talking about the £4k a week Kings Lynns of this world or the whatever Leek are paying. Im talking about clubs that Grove would expect to be competing with.
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reece1
Premier League
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From what I've seen so far there is no doubt that the players we have are capable of at least finishing midtable, whether that happens, who knows.normally after the Christmas period it becomes clearer where we will end up,you can't blame bad luck and officials every game.It is a very tough ask for shaun and co this season ,so we need to be patient.If however after Christmas we are bottom with no signs of improving, maybe things will have to change for the benefit of the club.But for now we need to support shaun and the players and hope we turn the corner, we are capable of winning any game in this league, no team so far seems that much better than us.
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Hoover
Playing in the park
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Ok Johno
Good point, let’s assume there is no more money left in the pot.

I can offer 5 options. 1 easiest and 5 most radical (of which I will let you decide which is realistic or not.)

1.Go with what reece1 says and be patient, give the players and management some time to get it right. There have been a lot of good performances (Several truly awful ones too!) so far and once a win comes so will more. (Not risky just be patient)

2.Look at your pot, get rid of some of the quality you have in the hope that what you bring in, probably of equal quality (and no more cost) gels better with the players that are left. (Slightly risky because it could go the other way)

3.Generate more income (Ok not as easy as it sounds). Club with good facilities decent bar, in the centre of a community, with a fairly good profile locally, can generate 200-250 on the gate on a good day, range of teams from u7 upwards and a first team playing in a regional/national league. Commercially sounds good. (Not actually that risky and you would have more for the pot! An extra £400 a month from various commercial opportunities would just about get you a 15-20 goal a year striker at this level. Double it and you probably have a creative midfielder, winger, defender or goalie that will give you more options, double it again and you get 2 more players who you can put where you like to bolster what you have and before you know it you are probably spending what you did last year, and judging by what’s written on these pages you couldn’t afford?! There is a point in there somewhere)

4.Get rid of team management and start again (Risky mid-season and if you have not implemented and reaping the rewards of 3, effectively you are doing 2)

5.Get rid of club management and start again (You need someone else to take over?! Someone to spend all their spare hours at the club, put their spare money into the club, spend their time preparing the pitch, cleaning the bar putting up with crap from supporters/players, & anyone else who fancies having a go. Gets grief when results don’t go well and virtually no thanks when they do…………….….any takers?? )

I’m sure there are other options, but I recon 9/10 would pick 1 or 2 of those above. Think I’d go for 1 if I wasn’t Libran maybe 2! :o)

With regards to where the budget currently sits im guessing we are more a Southampton or Norwich than a Stoke or Fulham at our respective level. On their day they could all beat each other but on 9 seasons out of 10 they won’t finish above but may take points off Man City, Man Utd or Arsenal??
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michelle
Evo-Stik Division One
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Interest debate - young lads vs experienced, budget, management team, players fault v management fault etc.

I know personally, or have seen play over last few years 90% of your current squad. On paper it looks fairly strong, I am surprised to see you bottom with those lads. I just want to add into the discussion 3 points:

1 - you can have the best 11 players but that does not make a winning team. Players work differently with other players. This is down to the management team to work out who gels with whom and what doesn't work.

2 - how to get the best out of your current squad. Not every player reacts the same. A shouting at may fire some players up where others it may intimidate them. What pushes the players?

3 - fitness levels. Newcastle team has been mentioned on here but 1 thing those lads all are is fit. Maybe the training regime may need to be addressed as it is too late now for the pre-season training which should have stood them in good stance.

It's just my opinion but without extra funding this 'could' be the way to improvement.

Fingers crossed for Saturday
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AlanL
Administrator
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I think Hoover's post is a cracking summary of the problems faced not just by Kidsgrove, but by non-league clubs up and down the country, trying to push forwards with limited resources.

The simple solution sounds like Option 3 - generate some more revenue through events, commercial opportunities etc. But as was mentioned, this is much easier said than done. We have a committee who devote so much time and effort to events like the Beer Festival, Fireworks Night, ABBA nights etc. I have the utmost respect for all those who do this and also volunteer week in, week out on matchdays. Without them, we would be in a far more precarious state than we are now, let's not forgot that the club isn't riddled with debt, which I'm sure doesn't apply to others in this league, especially some of those throwing money around. Unless we suddenly get a new army of people willing to join up and promote further ventures, we can't expect to draw any more money in - there's only so much that those who work so hard at the moment can do.

Ironically, one thing that may help us is being out of the FA Cup/Trophy. Last season this kept getting used as an excuse for us languishing down the bottom of the league (people seemed to forget we had a lousy start even before we'd kicked a ball in the FA Cup). This year we don't have the distraction, and while the money would have been fantastic, from a long-term view, it wouldn't have helped to address the underlying performance issues.

As I said in an earlier post, the squad is still evolving, and as a result I feel a bit more patience can be asked for.

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belle vue walker
North West Counties
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Unfortunately for yourselves there are only so many coaches/managers in the local area and they all seem to be in the Leek Town dug-out!!

Seriously,though you cant be calling for Shauns head this early in the season as apart from Coalville and Kings Lynn then the league seems fairly close together,points wise(and they will both have a sticky patch sooner or later)so to be honest 2 wins and you are back up there,the same with Leek,if we win our games in hand (although i always prefer points on the board)then we will be in the play-offs,so im not pressing the panic button yet as we are still raking in the cash from the cup runs.

Im the same as Reece,Xmas is the time to decipher where roughly you will finish in the league.There are always one or two teams in a false position this early in the season,do you think Market Drayton will be nudging the play-offs come April and Stamford are doing there annual early sprint up the league but like last season they will tail off again,and does anyone honestly think Leek and Kidsgrove will be in the bottom 2 by April,i'll bet NEITHER of them are.
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reece1
Premier League
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Like belle Vue walker pointed out there is a few teams in a false position ,belper another one, without their leading scorer who is injured I believe .
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