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DISCUSSING HISTORY
Topic Started: Jan 6 2010, 07:01 AM (946 Views)
King Henry VIII
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This is the place where we will work out what is going on in Europe on the board. Because I am by no means an expert on this and there are people who are much more knowledgeable than I on European history, I'm making this thread for you guys to engage in discussions on how things should be.

I understand that Italy has become a topic of concern, with conflicting plots involving it. So lets start with that. Anyone is welcome to reply here.
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Catherine Willoughby
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vérité sans peur
I know very little about Italy in this time period. Kind of a shame because I should remember it from my classes I took but um, it was really confusing, so I was only remembering things for exams. lol

All I know is that there is no unified Italy at this point...
[align=center]"I must shape my own coat according to my cloth, but it will not be after the fashion of this world but fit for me."

Catherine is in 2 threads.
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Thomas Howard
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Kudos for the thread, Katie. :)

Well, I recently reviewed my facts and from the top of my head there is of course no unified Italy (won't be till 1861 or something like that).

There were the city states - but their prime was in the past, because the beginning of 16th century is domination of France and Spain in the region. 1509 is after the time when French launched a successful offensive that swiped through duchies of Milan, Verona, Florence and Padua, (making their dukes into puppets, though it's more complicated in Florence) and reaching the borders of Papal State. Genoa was indepndent republican city-state under heavy influence of Spain (and later made a satellite thereof). In the south, the Kingdom of Naples, which outstretched all the way down to incorporate Sicily, was overrun by the Spanish, who sent their viceroys to the city.
The only truly independent city-state was Venice, a republic, but run by a doge who was elected for his life by merchant aristocracy of the city.

That's pretty much it in the nutshell. Of course the whole history is much more complicated. Hope that's helpful and I invite anyone to challenge my facts or ad pieces, for I'm no expert.
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Francesca de' Medici
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Gah, I know more about 15th century Italy than 16th century. It would be extremely helpful to look at a map of 16th century Italy, cuz this might not make sense otherwise.

Uhm, well. It's as mentioned, divided into many city states. Top of my head, Genoa, Florence, Siena, Lucca and Venice were republics. Ferrara and Milan were duchies (Ferrara was ruled by the d'Este and Milan by the Sforza), Naples was a Kingdom, Mantua was a Marquisate.

Venice was an oligarchy where a group of wealthy merchants made the decisions, sitting on top of that was the Doge of Venice who was elected by the merchants for life. He had a veto on all decision making but no final say. It was able to remain independent at this time and was a major economic power in Europe with trade routes reaching from England to China.(I don't know too much about Venice)

Florence was a republic and the banking central of Europe. It was extremely complicated. Basically, it worked by drawing names out of a purse and those 9 people would hold executive power for 2 months. It was also an oligarchy. In 1513, power went back to the Medicis (the Medicis were de facto rulers, they never held actual office power, only manipulating it from behind) . It remained Medicean up to about 1527, and then they toppled the Medici and reestablished the republic. It went back to the Medicis sometime close to the 1530s and they became the Dukes of Tuscany in 1533.

The Papal States was ruled officially by the Pope. He was elected by the college of cardinals. But during this time, the papal states were decentralized and there were petty lords of their each tiny city states. (Eg. Della Rovere of Urbino). The goal of each pope was to centralize power. Popes of this time were Julius II (1503-1513), Leo X (1513-1521), Adrian IV (1521-1523), Clement VII (1523-1534). Leo X is apparently the current one in this role play. He is also a Medici, and thus ruled Florence via his nephews/ brother.

Milan was ruled by the Sforza lords and the Kings of France interchangeably. It was a military state. Louis XII drove Ludovico Sforza out. In 1512, Louis XII of France was driven out and the lands reverted back to the Sforza. 1515 was another invasion by Francis I and he ruled it until 1521. It went back to Francesco Sforza by this time.

Around this time was the period known as the Italian Wars. Both Spain and France had claims on many Italian states. Florence was traditionally allied with France and Milan. The French throne had claims to Milan. Spain took over Naples. Many cities went back and forth between France, Spain and independence. Venice and the Papacy aligned themselves with whoever would benefit them. (The alliances during these wars were confusing.)

Leo was pro- Charles V and Henry VIII, Clement was pro Francis until the Sack of Rome where he became a dependent of Charles V

That's a lot to read, I know, but there's really no way to shorten such a complicated time for Italy. I hope it helps :)
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Archbishop Thomas Tallis
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Yes. The information presented thus far is great (and accurate...I think.) I was speaking with Katie about possible plots involving the Pope.

If I'm not mistaken, the board is set pre-1517 (I was under the assumption that we were in 1509, is that correct?) Leo X was 1513. Katie and I had been discussing possible plot lines involving Pope Julius II. Now...I see why Leo X was made the current pope. We have advanced the Reformation from 1517 and following to earlier in history (ie the current time.) For a plot to work, I need to nail down exactly which pope is in office and how far we are in the Reformation.

Now...my understanding is that at this point in history (the history of the board and NOT real life history):

-Martin Luther has nailed his 95 Theses on the doors of Wittenburg Abbey. The Diet of Worms and subsequent events have not yet happened. Can we all agree to this? If the plotline that I'm working on is successful, then we can move the events of the Reformation up to the Diet of Worms and subsequent events.

Is that all cool?
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Francesca de' Medici
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I created my character on the assumption that it's 1514, since that's the year Mary went to France to marry Louis XII but since Utopia has been already been published (1516) and the Theses has been nailed, I guess the timeline would be around 1517. Though, we could move the year earlier to 1515 or so.

So we're basically squishing everything together. If Luther already published his theses, then it means that Leo has already been selling indulgences for a while. He must have been pope for at least 2 years for that to make the timeline work.

What I want to know is who King Henry VIII is allied with right now (on the board), so to figure out what the policies are.
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Thomas More
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All of this sounds good to me, and what a great idea to spread this info around! Since the site isn't historically accurate, we'll have a few things to clarify, with about three (or more) years' worth of events happening in a short span of time, not to mention Madge :) It depends on what everyone agrees upon, I suppose. I'm up for anything as long as I stay informed, especially in regards to religion. I think this would be an excellent time to begin on our Reformation plotting, if Renna agrees ;)
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Catherine Willoughby
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vérité sans peur
I thought basically we were just throwing a lot of the big events, for the plot, earlier, thus it is 1509 and stuff that happened a lot later are happening in our universe.

Is Henry titled the Defender of the Faith yet? That could be something interesting for Henry, Thomas More, Thomas Tallis, etc to write about--Henry's pamphlet against Luther, which is how he got the Defender of the Faith title from the Pope. :)

I need to go check all my old school work and notes from my Reformation class... I should know more about this stuff and I know I used to but now that I have my degree I don't remember a darn thing. lol
[align=center]"I must shape my own coat according to my cloth, but it will not be after the fashion of this world but fit for me."

Catherine is in 2 threads.
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Princess Mary Rose Tudor
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Now, like I said, I'm probably the least knowledgeable on the history outside of Europe, so consider my comments on THAT part of things a side note, if I even make any :P

But as for what's happening on the board, we have condensed the decade in some regards. The 95 thesis has been nailed to the door, Martin Luther's reach is beginning to trickle into London, with a few staunch supporters (Askew, for instance) gaining support somewhat slowly for now.

Here's the thing about Mary being married off. We had to backtrack on that plot because we didn't have enough people involved in it (many were inactive which became apparent when we called on them to be in a plot which required great activity, and were all wiped out with the next activity check. We tried to keep going for a while but it just didn't work). So! Mary's been announced as being paired with King Charles, but hasn't gone yet. Yeeeah...I haven't really reconciled that yet and am not looking forward to it. >.<

Henry has been negotiating peace with France, but there's nothing to say he can't go back on it in some awesome epic trickery against France IF the plot is fool-proof and presented to him in the right way.

As for who is Pope and Italian stuff, I'll continue to let you guys work that out. Just remember that here we are fine with, and even love, to take one thing from 1514 and another from 1509 and do them simultaneously, etc. So tweak time all you want--the important thing isn't historical accuracy down to the year and month, it's what you guys enjoy rping.
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Thomas Howard
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Wow! This thread is amazing!

As far as I understand it, the board timeline is 1509, quickly approaching 1510 - for we have Christmas threads popping up. It's the year Henry VIII became king, but we have an amalgamate of canon characters from far ahead, like Arabella Stuart, Cecil Williams (William Cecil) or even Edward Seymour and Anne Boleyn (who would be veeeeery young in 1509), because simply they are interesting and widely known. I think some tinkering with history to tie all loose strings in inevitable. There are a lot of things to agree upon, especially the politics of Europe - spheres of influence, current rulers and alliances.

I'd lean towards Leo X as the pope since 1507 (so he's the pope for two years now, as Francesca suggested) and we can replace him in the future with Adrian or even right away Clement if plots require. I remember Lo (Anne Askew) wrote in one of her early posts that Henry was already Defender of the Faith when she arrived at court, but it's too early for that. Perhaps someone (More?) could plant the idea of writing a pamphlet in his mind in near future?

Oh, and since we're still based in England, what about Scotland and her Auld Alliance with France? Princess Margaret is betrothed to James IV, but historically it didn't prevent war between two countries in 1513.
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Renna Mochrie
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Hey, Henry declared war on France FIRST. and Scotland was allied with France. So it's all his fault! :P

As for the Pope, it really needs to get straightened out because Cody already plotted the Pope's death (original Pope), so Wolsey and Tallis can duke it out. and by 'duke it out' i mean Wolsey wants the position and Tallis doesn't.
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Francesca de' Medici
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I was thinking we should have Julius II instead. Francesca's father , Leo X, can be demoted to Cardinal/de facto ruler of Florence. After the whole plotting with the pope goes through, Leo X will ascend to the holy see and start the counter reformation. It will be Julius (the warrior pope) starting the war. He could start selling indulgences to fund his wars.

I'm all for skipping Adrian IV to Clement VII as Clement is more concerned with England. Although, if Wolsey wants the whole papacy drama, we can have Adrian IV as a filler pope (which he pretty much was)

Also, Tallis needs to be cardinal before he can contest the holy see. So probably as a show of goodwill, Julius can make Tallis a Cardinal.
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Archbishop Thomas Tallis
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Having Julius II as pope would work better for plotlines.

In terms of Tallis being a cardinal, he already would be I think. He is the Archbishop of Canterbury. At that time, the ABofC came with a Cardinal's hat...I THINK...but now that I'm thinking of it........think about this scenario:

Julius II is fighting wars and is selling indulgences to pay for it. Luther is pissed off and nails his complaints to the door. Henry, with the help of Tallis, defends the Church (Tallis is all for staying with the Church...even though he would like to see some reform). As a sign of thanks, Julius II comes to England to give Henry the Defensor Fidei and Tallis the Cardinal's hat. The rest of the plotline (some of which I'd like to keep secret for now) can then happen.
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Thomas Howard
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Erm, no he hasn't. Archbishop of Canterbury has the pallium, which is something totally different than cardinal's hat - it has only some liturgical meaning. Wolsey was the only cardinal in England around the time, and that's why he claimed superiority in the church, depite being "only" Archbishop of York, nominally beneath Archbishop of Canterbury. The idea of Julius vesting cardinal's hat on Tallis sounds sensible - he would want England to war with France, and since Wolsey (our Wolsey) is against that, he'd want to cast preference on someone else in the Church of England.
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Henry Percy
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Still Francesca (working on the Henry Percy Ap)

Would either of the English Cardinals want to vote at the conclave? We might have an Italian subplot if so.

So who are the Kings of France and Spain, Holy Roman Emperor at this time in the forum?
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