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Who is the best girl for Carter?
Topic Started: Jul 1 2005, 07:42 AM (4,135 Views)
ashmo
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What I find most interest about Carby supporters is that they base their support for that relationship on how the writers and actors portrayed those characters in Seasons 6 - 8 when they were only flirting with each other.


I don't think all do that. That's what I was saying earlier right now, season 11, was that most if not all the problems they had in Season 9 have been resolved from Carter and Abby's 180 turn, which they did because of everything that happened with them while them being apart. So because of how things have changed and mostly their friendship hasn't even with them being apart over the past two years that's what I've based their future from not Season 6-8.

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lol - you're right. They have changed her character in Seasons 10 and 11, but I am also a bit disappointed.

Her character change seemed to happen overnight and now there is little-to-no mention of her flaws. In fact, her only flaw in Season 11 was how people kept underestimating her.

I liked her character trying to work through her flaws because I think that there are a lot of people, or sides to each of us, that have to do the same.

Unfortunately and suddenly, those flaws and attempts to work through them were completely abandoned in Season 11. In fact, if I hadn't watched the show to see her face, I would not have even thought that the character being portrayed by MT was Abby. That's where I see inconsistent writing on the part of TPTB, because the Seasons 10 - 11 Abby is completely different from how the writers wrote her for Seasons 6 - 9.


I also disagree with that they had certain things happen to her that helped push each flaw to be conquered. For instance the drinking I think that was one of her biggest storylines Carter being the next. I f Carter was this important to the character when he left and one of his main issues with her was the drinking then obviously she'd try to control it. She didn't go to buy a drink when he left she went to buy a stethoscope. Which brings up the next thing her whole non confident, low self esteem slash nothing good is ever going to happen to me. I think all of that is still kind of there med school is full of disappointments I think she kind of had to get over all those things to even put the labcoat on. She took a chance of not being disappointed and we saw it work when she got her board scores. I think that helped plus the boosts of confidence she got from her attending in the NICU and her attending in crazy house and Neela and Weaver. Her family not really resolved still completely there just dissapeared off the Earth. But we did see a step when Abby called her mother at the graduation she saw Neela's family there to support Neela and heard about Lester's parents going to be there to support him and even had Susan and Luka and Sam there to support her but in the end didn't seem like she was satisfied so she called her mother. I wish they would bring them back to see what's happening so there's one thing her ability to understand her family in the right way has not been tested.

Another being honest and open about her relationships. I think she''s kind of there I mean her honesty with Jake in Carter Est Amoreux I didn't see coming. She said exactly what she wanted to say and we knew that when she didn't go chasing after him she let him know alot in that one sentence. Last but not least the smoking I think the whole kidnapping scared the hell out of her so much to see the reason she was even out there. Plus I haven't seen her smoke since also she didn't go back to it because of her stress from the kidnapping or internship alchohol either.

Took two years for her to work through 3of her major habits I don't consider that overnight. I do think the alchohol was tested again in Season 11 and her confidence was also many times. On the other hand I do agree with you when you say the only flaw that really took up any of her screentime was being underestimated the alchohol was barely touched but it was touched but I do think her fatalistic routine and confidence has changed and been seen all over Season 11. I really do hope though that her family reappears just to see if it is a full 180.
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LoveSeason10
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That's what I was saying earlier right now, season 11, was that most if not all the problems they had in Season 9 have been resolved from Carter and Abby's 180 turn, which they did  because of everything that happened with them while them being apart. So because of how things have changed and mostly their friendship hasn't even with them being apart over the past two years that's what I've based their future from not Season 6-8.


I agree that Season 11 shows that they are better as friends than as lovers, because they have just enough communication for a friendship, but not quite enough for a lifelong romance.

Even in Season 11, we don't really see them sharing major details of their lives with each other. In fact, Carter opens up to Luka more than he does to Abby about his personal life and concerns.

In short, I would say that the writers showed us in Season 11, that Carter and Abby improved as people once they stopped trying to be lovers.

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Took two years for her to work through 3of her major habits I don't consider that overnight.


I agree that this is what the writers were trying to imply, but if you were new to the show and only knew Abby from Season 11, you would not know that this was the same character that had been portrayed since Season 6.

None of her problems were mentioned or even visible in Season 11, they just suddenly disappeared from her life and as a viewer you were supposed to take it on faith that she had worked through them.

If she had been a minor character maybe that would have been acceptable to me, but MT got major screen time in Season 11 so I do not understand that decision.

On a lighter note, the rumor mill is claiming that the producer who apparently was responsible for Abby's 180 turn reversal, has either been demoted or fired. As a result, Abby's stories will be controlled more by Germill, et al in Season 12, so it should be interesting to see what happens.

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...I do think the alchohol was tested again in Season 11....


Unfortunately, I do not remember the episode where they show her being tempted to take a drink after a stressful occasion or anything that shows that she was tempted to use or buy alcohol as a comfort mechanism in Season 11, despite the fact that she is an alcoholic. If you know the episode name, I would love it if you would give it to me so that I can rewatch it.

It sounds like I missed it. :grr:

Thanks!

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Another being honest and open about her relationships. I think she''s kind of there I mean her honesty with Jake in Carter Est Amoreux I didn't see coming. She said exactly what she wanted to say and we knew that when she didn't go chasing after him she let him know alot in that one sentence.


Well again I would say that this points a bit to the inconsistency of the writing of her character in Season 11.

All of Abby's other issues have appeared to suddenly resolve themselves.

However, her ability to open up about relationships shows flashes of the old Abby. Why didn’t they do this with her other issues?

On the one hand we have, Carter Est Ameroux, and we are supposed to see this as her being honest about her life and Jake in it.

But in Refusal of Care and the episode where she meets his family, we see her unable to decide what she wants this relationship to be.

In Refusal of Care, Abby is having a conniption because she doesn't know what Jake should call her when he introduces her to his friends. Is she a girlfriend, item, etc.? It seemed to me that she was showing us signs of the old Abby. A person who, even though she has 40 years worth of life experience, can't decide about intimacy and relationships.

And this concept is carried into the episode where she visits Jake's family, and it looks like she is willing to give them an opportunity to make it as a couple.

Then, in the very next episode “Carter Est Ameroux”, this reaction to their time with his family is being ignored. And now she treats Jake as if she has been discussing her feelings all along – that she wanted him for comfort and not for a lifetime commitment – and now its time for them to part.

Are we supposed to see Abby as more mature and changed because I don't think that the last few episodes and her intimacy with Jake showed that.

To me, her character was not evenly handled in Season 11.

But, of course, that's just my opinion.

Thanks for sharing. :)


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bigshow
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Man oh man!! What is the matter with everyone?? You're all reading so much into every little detail that you're not even enjoying the show. Everyone is worried about what is happening, who is breaking up with who, and who is getting together. What's going to happen is going to happen and it is pointless arguing over it because no one is going to change their minds, so we should just sit back relax and enjoy what we are given. If it turns out to be a Carby in the end that is wonderful (except for Carkem fans), if it turns out to be Carkem in the end then that is wonderful too (except for the Carby fans). The grass is always going to be greener on the other side. All in all, no one knows how it is going to turn out. You could have the details pointed out and explained but anything can happen at anytime for any reason.
Carby forever and always!!
Waiting for the greatest Carby reunion ever!
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ashmo
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When I said she'd been tempted with the alchohol I meant that Abby seems to drink when things get difficult. ( assault, alone on birthday, family) the fact that she was kidnapped and held at gunpoint, doubted throughout her 1st year internship, and in Season 10 couldn't pass her boards and was going back and forth between nursing and med student but she hasn't drank. That's what I meant. I wave a white flag. I love to go back and forth with anybody. Thanks for the entertainment Love Season 10 I get what you're saying nice to see another side. It was fun. :D
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susanlewisfan8365
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You're all talking about Carkem and Carby. What about Carsan ?
John and Susan belong together.

Carsan Forever !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wub:
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LoveSeason10
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susanlewisfan8365
Aug 25 2005, 01:55 AM
You're all talking about Carkem and Carby. What about Carsan ?
John and Susan belong together.

Carsan Forever !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wub:

:haha:

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure that in Susan's world, Chuck is da man!!!

lol
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maura_rocks
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Yup! that's why i voted carby!!!!

chelsea xxx
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Ashleigh
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LoveSeason10
Aug 29 2005, 02:01 PM
susanlewisfan8365
Aug 25 2005, 01:55 AM
You're all talking about Carkem and Carby. What about Carsan ?
John and Susan belong together.

Carsan Forever !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wub:

:haha:

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure that in Susan's world, Chuck is da man!!!

lol

LMAO!! :P

I never got Carsan ;) sorry...I bit like Marsan - I guess they both both really just friendships (IMO)
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LoveSeason10
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:yahoo: As I watched the repeat of "Carter Est Ameroux", I was once again struck by how well Wylie and Newton get their characters to interact with each other. Even when they are confrontational, they are still able to generate a sense that they love and understand each other.

And I love that John, who is normally very calm and passive in his interactions with people, is so very jealous of a man who might be or has had a relationship with his woman. <_<

That being said, on 2nd viewing, I really don't understand this Michel controversy. According to the beginning of the episode, Kem was in Kisangani when she called John to tell him that she was leaving for Paris because her mother had been hospitalized. And John left on the same day that he got that call, which means that Kem had arrived in Paris only a few hours before John arrived. That's not much time for a 'relationship' to develop or even to sleep together (especially if you factor in jetlag :P ).

I love Kem's smile at the end because it is full of surprise and elation that he actually came back for her.

I guess we will see next year what Season 12 (i heard that the Wylie episodes will be filmed early next year) has to bring for these two.
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MsMomERLover
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What in the Wide Wide World of ER and NBC programming is going on here???

What is this pro-Carter and Abby relationship stuff?

I came on this site looking for some information about Season 12, and then I find all of this nonsense about Abby and Carter being good for each other as lovers.

I am just a mom, and I have kids, a husband, and a job so I normally don't have time to post on Bulletin Boards, but this is ridiculous.

I do not know of 1 grown-up person who likes healthy relationships between adults that supports the Carter Abby bond.

Reading back on all the posts that are pro-Carby(?), I had to ask myself if these people were actually watching the same show that the rest of us did?

Even more disturbing, is their claim that most ER fans supported that relationship.

The fact is that it was a questionable pairing to begin with, and its early demise was apparent from the very 1st episode that they became a couple.

First of all, they got together following a traumatic experience (i.e., thinking that they may have been infected with smallpox). Traumatic experiences and relationships are a bit like getting drunk and then getting married – both situations usually result in a connection that doesn’t last after the alcohol has worn off or the trauma has been resolved. That’s relationships 101. And in fact the writers were consistent with that fact.

Secondly, Maura Tierney looks 40 years old! While Noah Wylie looks like he is mid-20s. In terms of looks, they absolutely don't belong together. I’m not saying that MT is unattractive. I’m just saying that she looks her age, and it is an insult to the majority of viewers if the writers and producers are trying to portray her as a twenty-something or early-30 something.

Finally, Carter and Abby’s personalities, ambitions, and expectations from life are also completely different. I think in many ways Abby is looking for someone to take care of her the way that she takes care of her brother. Although, I think that Carter likes taking care of people, I think that he would prefer to give that part of his energies to his patients. It doesn't make sense for him to give himself in that way 24-7 (i.e., to both his patients and his lover); eventually he will tire out (and he did, hence why he left for Africa).

And then there is the business about their passion for each other.

I read the pro-Carby posts, and I literally had to go back and view every single episode of Season 9 to see if I had missed something.

The fact is those two never had passion (they had sex, not passion, and even the sex part did not happen often at least from what we saw and what was implied), and they never had amorous affection – they had friendship not that dissimilar from what Carter has for Kovac. And this is the case, despite the fact that Carter had Abby had over 3 seasons worth of time (several hours worth of screen time) in which to develop such a relationship. :iffy:

In contrast, Carter and Kem showed each other more affection and passion in the 3 hours of total screen time they had in 2 seasons, than in all of the time that "Carby" had.

I think that it 's a shame that pro-Abby and Carter relationship people seem to dominate these boards even though they make up such a small percentage of ER viewers to the extent that they think of themselves as the majority.

The majority of people don't really care about the relationship aspect, and when they do, they want a healthy relationship between 2 mature-acting adults and not some tit-for-tat near abuse experience as exemplified by Carter and Abby.

It's just that we don't have the time to obsess about ER. We have shopping, cooking, working, etc. to get done, and we have a very limited amount of time in which to do them. So posting on ER boards is not high on our list of priorities. But never doubt that we exist in force and that we are fine with how the writers ended Carter and Abby and with Carter being in love with Kem.

I just wish that I knew more about Kem, and it sounds like I may get that wish fulfilled in Season 12.

I apologize for the rant, but I really find this pro-Carby distortion of facts and storylines ridiculous and misleading.
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LoveSeason10
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Wow Ms. Mom,

That was some venting fit! Now find your inner peace and breathe. :P


I don't have a problem with people who are fans of a particular relationship. However, I agree, that when these 'fans' start omitting major events in the plot, or when they start rewriting the history of a relationship or what has been revealed about a person's character, they have crossed the line into the realm of propaganda. Worse yet, is when they state that the majority of viewers agree with them.

I think that this is one of the things that I appreciate most about Carter/Lucy fans. Even though they liked Carter and Lucy together, most of them don't state that this was the favorite relationship of the viewers, nor do they try to reinvent the show by making up stuff that didn't happen, or by stating that the only reason why the relationship went bad is because Wylie didn't want his character to be with Lucy. The majority of Carter/Lucy fans that I have met, simply accept that she is gone and that they miss them as a couple.

In all fairness to Carby, there are a few Carbies who have stated that they realize that most of their justification for that relationship is in their minds.

I think that the majority of fans are like you, and you are certainly in ER's target demographic. Most fans don't care and just want Carter to be happy. Most of them simply don't have the time to log onto these boards to counter all of the pro-Carby posts.

The only reason why I'm posting is because there are a lot of people who started watching the show in Season 10. These people know the Carter/Kem relationship, but if they come to these boards then they are given a bunch of disinformation as to what actually occurred and why between Carter and Abby.

Like you said, after reading the Carby-version of ER history, you have to watch Season 9 again just to make sure that you and they were watching the same show. In fact, if you read a lot of the Carby posts, you'll notice the term "anvil" being used a lot. For them, these anvils are signs (like the camera fading from Carter to Abby and Abby to Carter in the episode Carter Est Ameroux) that the writers and producers will put Carter back with Abby. Is that a valid point? Well, I guess. However, if you see that as a sign, then what does it mean that whenever Abby and Carter were together in that episode, feces (the porta-potties, and the feces from the ceiling) were not too far away? How can you see one as a sign and the other as nothing? In short, some of them are willing to read a lot of things into scripts in order to advocate their position.

I think that a lot of Carbies are fairly young- like midteens to early 20's (there are a few adults your age, but they are rare). Although, I think that this is great, I realize that this means (at least I hope this means) that they have not had a lot of experience in terms of romantic relationships. So the dynamics of Carby may make sense to them and seem like love, whereas to us that relationship seem like borderline abuse.

In any case, don’t let it annoy you. Just respond with facts. :hug:

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MsMomERLover
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Thanks LoveSeason10 :hug:

I feel much better now.:D


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I think that a lot of Carbies are fairly young- like midteens to early 20's (there are a few adults your age, but they are rare).  Although, I think that this is great, I realize that this means (at least I hope this means) that they have not had a lot of experience in terms of romantic relationships.  So the dynamics of Carby may make sense to them and seem like love, whereas to us that relationship seem like borderline abuse.


From what I have seen, you are correct with regard to your age theory. However, this is also what disturbs me a bit. A healthy relationship is an important part of life, and if they can't recognize that the lack of communication and intimacy that plagued the Carter/Abby relationship are signs of an unhealthy relationship, then what kind of partner will they select in real life?

As a mother, I would be very sad if my child were in a relationship like Carter had with Abby to the extent that she thought that it was a healthy relationship and even one worthy of a commitment like marriage.

But that is my personal opinion. ;)

As far as signs go, I love the fact that Kem is the only woman that Carter has taken to the hotel where his parents and grandparents got married. I know that he really loved the relationship that his grandparents had, and I think that this bodes very well for John and Kem in Season 12.
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LoveSeason10
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MsMomERLover
Sep 20 2005, 03:56 PM
As far as signs go, I love the fact that Kem is the only woman that Carter has taken to the hotel where his parents and grandparents got married.  I know that he really loved the relationship that his grandparents had, and I think that this bodes very well for John and Kem in Season 12.

Hey, there are tons of firsts between Kem and John. One of the reasons why I like this relationship so much is that it is one of the few ER relationships where you don't have 'read into' various expressions and gestures in order to try to convince yourself that love really exists between the 2 characters.

In many ways, the John/Kem relationship reflects the main personality of trait of both characters, which is that they both appreciate honesty and they like expressing their feelings openly. The only exception to this has been the death of Joshua, their baby, and I think that is a plotline that will be explored in Season 12.

Anyway, some more firsts for you include:

1) Kem is the first woman to whom he says, "I love you." I watched Season 9 episodes and I have searched episode recaps, but I cannot find any evidence that he ever said those words to Abby; which was his most serious relationship until Kem.

In addition, Carter says I love you to Kem both before the baby is born, after they find out that the baby has died, and even after they have been apart for several months.

2) She is the first woman that he asks to dance. Maybe this doesn't seem like much to most people, but these days, a lot of men don't like to dance and only do so when they are really, really interested in you. And I thought that after all of his protests about dancing in the Season 9 episode, Tell Me Where It Hurts, it was so touching to see him be the one who asks her to dance with him.

3) She is the only woman to whom he has proposed. The closest that he came to proposing before Kem, was when he told Abby in the Season 9 episode, A Boy Falling From Sky, that he "wants to marry her." No question is proposed or date is given and Carter decides to try again in the very next episode, A Thousand Cranes. However, in that episode, he basically decides not to propose or give her the ring because "It just didn't feel right." (that's what he tells his grandmother in the episode, The Advocate). And no truer words have ever been spoken in the English language. :clap:

In contrast, Carter has asked Kem to marry him at least 2 times. Once after the baby died. And once (or twice depending on how you want to look at it) at the baby's funeral.
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ashmo
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I was going to say something but then I thought what's the point this little argument of Carby and CarKem will go on for ages what's the point
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MsMomERLover
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ashmo
Sep 20 2005, 06:29 PM
I was going to say something but then I thought what's the point this little argument of Carby and CarKem will go on for ages what's the point

Hi ashmo :D ,

Actually I never thought of this as a debate, rather I considered it a friendly place where one can discuss one's ideas and observations surrounding these couples based on events that occurred in the show.

LoveSeason10,

Thank you for the list of 'firsts'. :clap:

I also love that John counts the days, hours, and minutes that he and Kem have been together in their relationship. Usually, we're lead to believe the stereotype that men do not remember important relationship-related dates like anniversaries, but in the John/Kem relationship he's completely about the dates.

In "Makemba", Kem starts to give reasons why it may not be wise for her to have the baby. And she says that they have known each other for "like 6 days", but John counters that statement by taking her hands into his, smiling, and saying "6 weeks". Not only has he also kept track of the time, but the wide smile on his face and the tone in his voice indicate that it's been enough time for him. :roll:

Then, of course, there is the time that she goes back to Congo after coming to Chicago for the first time, and John is sending her a care package complete with various vitamins, medication, and a rose. Luka asks John how long it’s been since they have seen each other, and John is able to respond down to the exact minute how long it has been.

It's nice to see the writers and producers introducing a healthy, romantic relationship on ER. It's a rare opportunity for them and they seem to be enjoying it.

Since we touched on the subject of babies and family, do we know if Abby wants to have a baby?

Oh, and by the way, what is Carkem? Is this a term that NBC or the writers and producers use to describe the relationship between John and Kem? Is it a term devised by the fans of that relationship? Just wondering what its origins are.
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