PHL needs 48 fighter jets, 6 mini-submarines

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PHL needs 48 fighter jets, 6 mini-submarines; Based on a report by CNAS
Tweet Topic Started: May 5 2012, 03:59 AM (7,581 Views)
Furbolling	May 11 2012, 08:04 AM Post #51
Member Posts: 1,183 Group: Regulars Member #7,056 Joined: September 7, 2011	icefrog May 10 2012, 04:58 PM ^ Well, I hope you are right about the F-35 price and US letting us buy it. I sincerely do. Right now, don't blame me if I doubt what you are saying. We just have to wait. I actually don't see Phils. buying 5th gen planes. I only mention PAK-FA in passing just to say that if ever Phils. decides to get 5th gen planes it will probably what we can afford. I actually believe it will cost less than Pak-Fa once the FRIP start.. you can actually see the dramatic decrease of price from LRIP-1 to LRIP 4.. it nearly go down $100 million.. now factor in the hundreds of F-35 produce by 2018.. and about the cost of the Pak-Fa which is put in $47-$51 million that is the cost of the prototype without Avionics, Radar, no RAM coating(means NO stealth).. their is also a doubt if the PAK-FA can ever reach the stealth Magnitude of F-35 which is playing in 0.001-0.0001 according to official(not to mention that US get surprise when they are testing the stealth of F-35 which make them VERY VERY HAPPY and now increase the kill-exchange ratio against other Fighter right now(from 4-1 to 6-1 right now))
	"Brothers!! What we do in life, Echoes through Eternity" -Maximus


Furbolling	May 11 2012, 08:14 AM Post #52
Member Posts: 1,183 Group: Regulars Member #7,056 Joined: September 7, 2011	fernandez705 May 11 2012, 01:12 AM KFIR May 10 2012, 06:20 PM Furbolling May 10 2012, 08:55 AM icefrog May 8 2012, 09:23 PM spearhead May 8 2012, 04:50 AM InkognitoAce May 7 2012, 10:43 PM If we are shopping for MRFs, I sill think it would be wise to buy "normal" fighters (F-16s or FA-50s) that would be cheaper to operate and which we could buy in larger numbers, while at the same time having a smaller fleet of really advanced air-superiority fighters so we can push back any aerial intrusions from neighbouring air-forces (e.g.: Su-30/Su-35, Eurofighter Typhoon, F-15). This way, we can use the cheaper jets to conduct patrols and other such things, but use the more advanced ones when things really get serious. Thats actually the ideal concept of establishing our Fighter Wing. We need to keep atleast 1 squadron made of the latest 5th generation fighters, but for now it seems unaffordable unless if the philippines would forget about building their economy first, like the various infrastructures to support it. If only they can afford a 48 units of MRF, perhaps they can reduce the numbers to 24 4th generation fighters instead, then around 6-12 units of 5th generation MRF, depending on the budget allocations. US 5th gen planes are out of reach. The only 5th gen plane we could possible afford is India/Russia's PAK-FA if current estimates holds true of it's cost. i don't think the Pak-Fa will cost less $120 million(aircraft only) because of the fact the SU-37 is said to cost $147 million each(aircraft only) according to what info i've read. PAK-FA is a generation ahead just like the F-22 and F-35. Sukhoi Pak FA cost $100 million which I doubt if we can afford to buy a squadron. We can achieve 48 fighter jets through 3rd generation fighter jets in less than a decade. There are a number of 3rd generation fighter jets out there that can still be upgraded to match against 4th (and may be even 5th) generation fighter jets. no disrespect but ive been looking through different sources that are well known and they all have different views on the aircrafts prices. some source have similarities to your sources and some have similarities to other sources with a different price. fernandez705 the cost you said which is $47-$51 million dollar that is the cost of the first 2 prototype without radar, avionics and RAM(no stealth)+ without the real engine.. for example the X-35 cost is said to be $28 million in 2000 because the fighter doesn't have any radar, avionics, no RAM and no Internal carriage for weapon.. I really doubt the $100 million dollar the Russian have said.. if the SU-37 cost is said to be $140 million(which is not a stealth fighter) this will definitely defy logic if PAK-FA will not go to that price tag.. and in terms of Radar, AVIONICS, Stealth and weapon the F-35 have a edge over the PAK-FA.. the only area where the PAK-FA have advantage over F-35 is Range and more maneuverable(the F-35 have already have counter to this the 360 degree shooting ability).. we knew that at today's battlefield who have the better technology win and the American F-35 have an advantage over Pak-Fa not only in quality but quantity also..
	"Brothers!! What we do in life, Echoes through Eternity" -Maximus


Furbolling	May 11 2012, 08:19 AM Post #53
Member Posts: 1,183 Group: Regulars Member #7,056 Joined: September 7, 2011	another one if we for example have fighter competition by 2020-2022 the only aircraft that have the highest chance to win will be the F-35 because most of it's current competitor will not be any good in 2020's airspace.. in 1990's the American offer to us new build F-16 & F-18 to replace our F-5 but because of Money it didn't materialize. and the reason why American neglected us because we kick them out of this country.. now both of our country are healing from the strain relation back then so I never see any reason why US will not sell the F-35 to us if we have the $$$..
	"Brothers!! What we do in life, Echoes through Eternity" -Maximus


fernandez705	May 12 2012, 05:29 AM Post #54
Member Posts: 1,231 Group: Regulars Member #7,225 Joined: December 27, 2011	Furbolling May 11 2012, 08:14 AM fernandez705 May 11 2012, 01:12 AM KFIR May 10 2012, 06:20 PM Furbolling May 10 2012, 08:55 AM icefrog May 8 2012, 09:23 PM spearhead May 8 2012, 04:50 AM InkognitoAce May 7 2012, 10:43 PM If we are shopping for MRFs, I sill think it would be wise to buy "normal" fighters (F-16s or FA-50s) that would be cheaper to operate and which we could buy in larger numbers, while at the same time having a smaller fleet of really advanced air-superiority fighters so we can push back any aerial intrusions from neighbouring air-forces (e.g.: Su-30/Su-35, Eurofighter Typhoon, F-15). This way, we can use the cheaper jets to conduct patrols and other such things, but use the more advanced ones when things really get serious. Thats actually the ideal concept of establishing our Fighter Wing. We need to keep atleast 1 squadron made of the latest 5th generation fighters, but for now it seems unaffordable unless if the philippines would forget about building their economy first, like the various infrastructures to support it. If only they can afford a 48 units of MRF, perhaps they can reduce the numbers to 24 4th generation fighters instead, then around 6-12 units of 5th generation MRF, depending on the budget allocations. US 5th gen planes are out of reach. The only 5th gen plane we could possible afford is India/Russia's PAK-FA if current estimates holds true of it's cost. i don't think the Pak-Fa will cost less $120 million(aircraft only) because of the fact the SU-37 is said to cost $147 million each(aircraft only) according to what info i've read. PAK-FA is a generation ahead just like the F-22 and F-35. Sukhoi Pak FA cost $100 million which I doubt if we can afford to buy a squadron. We can achieve 48 fighter jets through 3rd generation fighter jets in less than a decade. There are a number of 3rd generation fighter jets out there that can still be upgraded to match against 4th (and may be even 5th) generation fighter jets. no disrespect but ive been looking through different sources that are well known and they all have different views on the aircrafts prices. some source have similarities to your sources and some have similarities to other sources with a different price. fernandez705 the cost you said which is $47-$51 million dollar that is the cost of the first 2 prototype without radar, avionics and RAM(no stealth)+ without the real engine.. for example the X-35 cost is said to be $28 million in 2000 because the fighter doesn't have any radar, avionics, no RAM and no Internal carriage for weapon.. I really doubt the $100 million dollar the Russian have said.. if the SU-37 cost is said to be $140 million(which is not a stealth fighter) this will definitely defy logic if PAK-FA will not go to that price tag.. and in terms of Radar, AVIONICS, Stealth and weapon the F-35 have a edge over the PAK-FA.. the only area where the PAK-FA have advantage over F-35 is Range and more maneuverable(the F-35 have already have counter to this the 360 degree shooting ability).. we knew that at today's battlefield who have the better technology win and the American F-35 have an advantage over Pak-Fa not only in quality but quantity also.. you sound so sure about this theory. don't be sure from what you've heard, wait until both aircrafts are fully operational and then we can decide which one to choose. also the question of getting it approve to us. im both a fan of the pak fa and the f-35 and i don't care which one we'll get as long as we can use it effectively to defend our nation.



Furbolling	May 12 2012, 08:01 AM Post #55
Member Posts: 1,183 Group: Regulars Member #7,056 Joined: September 7, 2011	im pretty sure the radar, avionics, stealth and advance engine the F-35 will win in this category. The americans have AESA radar since in the late 90's and now the second generation AESA radar(APG-77 & 81) which are LPI radar are now being fielded while the russian still didn't field a working AESA radar up to now in their airforce. In avionics it's clear which one is better. In stealth it's their first time to make one so do we expect they can match the experience the american have. In engine it's well known who is the leader here. So your comment saying the F-35 will lose to Pak-Fa(in the other thread) even if the battle didn't even start is all fantasy. If the F-35 was able to defeat the F-22 in real world exercise(during northen edge 2010) i don't see any reason why it can't be done on Pak-Fa.
	"Brothers!! What we do in life, Echoes through Eternity" -Maximus


Maubanin70	May 12 2012, 08:24 AM Post #56
Member Posts: 956 Group: Regulars Member #7,014 Joined: August 20, 2011	fernandez705 May 12 2012, 05:29 AM you sound so sure about this theory. don't be sure from what you've heard, wait until both aircrafts are fully operational and then we can decide which one to choose. also the question of getting it approve to us. im both a fan of the pak fa and the f-35 and i don't care which one we'll get as long as we can use it effectively to defend our nation. Please post some stats or any facts regarding Russian Gen. 5 aircraft. Furbolling's been giving you history and facts and all you have is a theory. US has a more mature battle tested technology. And before you say F-22 has not seen any air war yet I would say what about their B-2 and F-117 stealth. In the end Furbolling is right, we won't be offer F-35 if we don't have the money to pay for it. I'm hoping that with the incident happening now our Congress and future leaders of the Philippines will see the need of a capable AFP.



fernandez705	May 13 2012, 01:45 AM Post #57
Member Posts: 1,231 Group: Regulars Member #7,225 Joined: December 27, 2011	quote: Furbolling So your comment saying the F-35 will lose to Pak-Fa(in the other thread) even if the battle didn't even start is all fantasy. as you learn new things your views on the world changes. that post on the "f-35 will lose to the pak fa" was a long time ago and in that time my views on both aircraft's gradually changed both aircraft's are respectable but both aircraft's has its advantages and disadvantages. I don't care which aircraft our country will choose because the real weapon is the human being itself and the aircraft is just a tool that further enhances the persons ability to eliminate its opponent. quote: Maubanin70 Please post some stats or any facts regarding Russian Gen. 5 aircraft. Furbolling's been giving you history and facts and all you have is a theory. US has a more mature battle tested technology. And before you say F-22 has not seen any air war yet I would say what about their B-2 and F-117 stealth. In the end Furbolling is right, we won't be offer F-35 if we don't have the money to pay for it. I'm hoping that with the incident happening now our Congress and future leaders of the Philippines will see the need of a capable AFP. http://www.eurasiacritic.com/articles/worr...gas-end-us-wars http://defensetech.org/2012/03/02/so-japan...ts-go-too-high/ http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2010-01.html http://etherealland.com/newspaper/2007/10/...r-in-the-world/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulbit who has perfected thrust vectoring technology? answer russia. during the cold war who had the best submersible force, with larger submarines? russia. who has a better firepower in their mbts? russia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams At present, there is a generation gap between Russian and American military aircrafts, owning to the severe economic recession of the 90s. It was a struggle to survive which led to massive military cutbacks. This has changed the Russian military policy to one of a greater reliance on missiles and asymmetic weapons, which ensure more efficiency at lower costs (both in terms of money and manpower). if this didn't happen stealth technology and other aircraft technology of Russia will match the Americans. as i said before "the best weapons on the battlefield is the human being itself and the things that he uses are his tools" and the saying "a gun is only good as the soldier who carries it" my point is I don't care which aircraft it is as long as our service men and women can exploit the aircraft's and other equipments maximum effectiveness, to defend our homeland against any invaders.



Furbolling	May 14 2012, 09:15 AM Post #58
Member Posts: 1,183 Group: Regulars Member #7,056 Joined: September 7, 2011	Quote: as you learn new things your views on the world changes. that post on the "f-35 will lose to the pak fa" was a long time ago and in that time my views on both aircraft's gradually changed both aircraft's are respectable but both aircraft's has its advantages and disadvantages. I don't care which aircraft our country will choose because the real weapon is the human being itself and the aircraft is just a tool that further enhances the persons ability to eliminate its opponent. you just said that in April 2 2012.. you also forget the limitation can a human can handle.. at 12g's a human to be able to stand such high g's for a couple of second's he need to lay down flat and he/she can barely move(only a slight movement of fingers) today's aircraft have already go to the limit the human can handle them.. for example the F-22 can handle up-to 20g's but because of it's FCS it was limited to 9g's.. can't believe you actually believe what Kopp Carlo is saying.. he was many time proven wrong about the F-35 if you din't know it.. so what about this one.. and what about the USAF found in their studies that the F-35 is 6 times better than 4.5 gen.. and what about other counties finding also.. and if you put the RAND example here do you know what scenario they have it's called Tanker Denial Scenario.. first the 4 F-35 are low in fuel and just came out of a mission.. then a swarmed of enemy fighter came to them(because the Tanker is not stealth so they detect it).. the F-35 fight and shoot down some of the Fighter but the Enemy fighter shoot down the Tanker.. then the enemy fighter immediately go out of action while the F-35 because low in fuel didn't give chase.. even the F-22 was defeated in this scenario.. not to mention in a Northern Edge Exercise the F-35 system was able to detect and Jam the F-22.. so do you think the F-35 will not be able to do this to the Pak-Fa.. J-20 in trouble F-35 A-A Quote: who has perfected thrust vectoring technology? answer russia. during the cold war who had the best submersible force, with larger submarines? russia. who has a better firepower in their mbts? russia. about TVC who are the one who fielded them first in service.. It's the American with their F-22.. the German's are the first to put TVC in aircraft the Messerschmitt Me 163 TVC the Britist are the first one to build an engine capable of TVC.. they even build s TVC since WWI using 23 class airship.. the american even have thrust vectoring since the 1960's in their missile called Polaris.. they even have the X-31 which have TVC since early 1990's.. if the Russian perfected their TVC they should be the first to enter it in service but the American fielded the F-22 first.. and about TVC hey look the american have many of them.. Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor McDonnell Douglas F-15 STOL/MTD McDonnell Douglas F-15 ACTIVE General Dynamics F-16 VISTA High Alpha Research Vehicle(F-18) Rockwell-MBB X-31 McDonnell Douglas X-36 Boeing X-32 so do you think with all of that the American didn't perfect it since 1988 larger doesn't mean stronger.. the American sub's are far more stronger and far more quiet than Russia.. for example the whole Soviet Fleet computing power is only equivalent to 2 Virginia class submarine or 4 Los Angeles class submarine.. and your claim who have the better fire power in tank's you once again wrong.. the 120mm smoothbore of the NATO forces have higher penetrating power than the Russian 125mm cannon if you didn't know it.. and if you are saying that the Russian have the best tank then why Russia is not mass producing the T-90's for them.. you forget that the T-90 is only a upgraded T-72 name T-72BM.. para di ma drag ang pangalan ng bago nilang tank sa mga T-72 na sinira ng M1 sa Iraq binago nila ang name nito mula T-72BM to T-90.. and for example the RPG-29 was able to penetrate the Armor of the T-90 but it was not able to penetrate the Armor of the M1A2.. and for fire control the American have a great advantage on it.. the best tank of all is the Leopard 2 tanks.. Quote: At present, there is a generation gap between Russian and American military aircrafts, owning to the severe economic recession of the 90s. It was a struggle to survive which led to massive military cutbacks. This has changed the Russian military policy to one of a greater reliance on missiles and asymmetic weapons, which ensure more efficiency at lower costs (both in terms of money and manpower). if this didn't happen stealth technology and other aircraft technology of Russia will match the Americans. another tall tale.. let's see the American have the F-117 since the early 1980's so the USSR have plenty of time to build their own if you ask me.. not to mention the SR-71 is considered to be Semi-Stealth which first fly in 1964.. "The SR-71 was designed to minimize its radar cross-section, an early attempt at stealth design" SR-71 so USSR have nearly 3 decades to build one for their selves before they fall but didn't produce one..
	"Brothers!! What we do in life, Echoes through Eternity" -Maximus


fernandez705	May 15 2012, 12:47 AM Post #59
Member Posts: 1,231 Group: Regulars Member #7,225 Joined: December 27, 2011	is this turning into a stand off? please. your posts seems to be telling me that im on the Russians side. the only reason why this started is because i didn't believe on what you posted. and you insisting that i believe that the pak fa cost less than $100 mil is a lie, its because i only posted the sources that costs less than $100 mil here is your other source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_K...rce#F-X_Phase_3 so that's 9 bil/ 60 aircraft's is $150 mil per aircraft's. as for the TVC most of it are experimental and the f-22 is a 2d TVC compared to the Russians their thrust vectoring aircrafts are in service and they have aircrafts like the su-35 and pak fa which are going into service with 3d thrust vectoring. as i said before (and if i have to repeat this over and over i dont care) im both in favour of the pak fa and the f-35 (especially the b variant) because both aircraft's have their advantages and disadvantages. lets just wait and see the final result and see who gets corrected. and if i was the one who is wrong then i will gladly accept it. as i said before its the human being itself that makes these equipment so deadly. im nor pro russian or usa im PRO PILIPINAS.



Furbolling	May 15 2012, 08:23 AM Post #60
Member Posts: 1,183 Group: Regulars Member #7,056 Joined: September 7, 2011	fernandez705 May 15 2012, 12:47 AM is this turning into a stand off? please. your posts seems to be telling me that im on the Russians side. the only reason why this started is because i didn't believe on what you posted. and you insisting that i believe that the pak fa cost less than $100 mil is a lie, its because i only posted the sources that costs less than $100 mil here is your other source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_K...rce#F-X_Phase_3 so that's 9 bil/ 60 aircraft's is $150 mil per aircraft's. as for the TVC most of it are experimental and the f-22 is a 2d TVC compared to the Russians their thrust vectoring aircrafts are in service and they have aircrafts like the su-35 and pak fa which are going into service with 3d thrust vectoring. as i said before (and if i have to repeat this over and over i dont care) im both in favour of the pak fa and the f-35 (especially the b variant) because both aircraft's have their advantages and disadvantages. lets just wait and see the final result and see who gets corrected. and if i was the one who is wrong then i will gladly accept it. as i said before its the human being itself that makes these equipment so deadly. im nor pro russian or usa im PRO PILIPINAS. once again the 3D TVC.. do you know that Pak-Fa will use 2D TVC because 3D TVC is bad for RCS reduction.. and the American already build 3D TVC since 1988 using the F-15.. in 1991 the X-31 use a 3D TVC also.. 3D TVC found it's way to Missile like AIM-9X because at low speed battle(Below Mach 8) the TVC work but higher it's nearly useless(you ain't gonna like what happen if you try to turn at a speed of MACH 1.5 too much to handle by bare Human).. and you should take note only one TVC maneuver is considered good for Dogfighting(Hertz maneuver) the other's are only for airshow.. how tight a fighter can pull is not because of having TVC but because the control Surface it have.. for example the X-35 is actually more Maneuverable than the 2D TVC X-32 because it have a greater control surface and have a larger lifting body.. the F-35 demonstrated before a 55 degree AOA(F-35C) with a acceleration of F-16.. it also demonstrated 9.9g's maneuver last year.. the problem once you hit 9g's the blood in you head will be drain-off resulting to black-out's(pagkahimatay) go beyond 12g's you gonna end-up having a smash brain(unless you are superhuman).. the F-35 is design where it should be design.. capable of handling 9g's, with pointing abilities of a clean F-18 and acceleration of F-16 while carrying weapon internally, have the greatest SA of all fighter to date and have a stealth capability second only to F-22 to date(I'm sure it will be more stealthy than Pak-Fa and J-20 but when it comes to Japan 5th gen I will place it 3rd because they will know the know how to build a stealth fighter because of their F-35).. in short the F-35 was not design for airshow. ok let's go to topic.. it should be 48 Mirage 2000-5 not F-16 anymore..
	"Brothers!! What we do in life, Echoes through Eternity" -Maximus


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