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PNP's Savage sniper rifle; questions for sir Davinci
Topic Started: Jun 20 2010, 09:06 AM (3,601 Views)
Uzi 0
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sir, we may know your response to the comments posted at Timawa about the PNP's Savage sniper rifle obtained from FERFRANS:

1. Is it true that the PNP SAF acquired 111 sniper rifles? Does the SAF really need 111 snipers?

mamiyapis-
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  Is this a proprietary version, or is this configuration also available to the civilian community?

Wow, 111 sniper rifles? Does the SAF have that many snipers in it's ranks? It's just surprising they have enough money to buy 111 rifles when they could have easily bought twice, even thrice as much pistols for the beat cops.


2. Is it true that the PNP bought the Savage from FERFRANS for 750,000 pesos each?

prairiefire-
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Let's see...32 MILLION pesos for 40 sniper rifles...more than 750,000 petots per rifle!!!

Holy SH_T!    ?

OMG, seems like a gaggle of PNP generals are going to get rich here / go on an european junket!

To put things in perspective:

1) The Savage costs like 1200 dollars, or 60k petots. Even factoring in taxes, shipping, scopes, cases and ammunition, it just can't get past 200k each. The scopes are expensive, you say? Since these are FERFRANS guns, I would assume that they would use MILLET brand scopes, as they are fanboys of this marque. Their top-of-the-line scope costs @ 35 - 40k retail here, so 60k for the rifle, 40k for the scope, 10k for the mounts, 10k for the bipod, 10k for the case, plus ammunition and other minor accessories. Hard to see actual costs go past 200k here. Yet per-unit cost is over 750k petots EACH!

2) For 5k dollars, ( 250k petots ) you can get the full set of the M24 sniper rifle, the premier sniper rifle of the United States ARMY.

3) For 5k dollars ( 250,000 pesos ) you can also get the M40A3 sniper rifle set used by the US Marine Corps.

4) For 7 thousand dollars ( 350,000 pesos ) you can get the Accuracy International ARCTIC WARFARE sniper rifle, arguably the best sniper rifle in the planet.

5) For 8 thousand dollars ( 400K pesos ) you can get a Barrett M107 Semi-Auto .50 BMG sniper rifle

6) For ten thousand dollars ( 500,000 ) you can get the legendary Heckler and Koch PSG 7.62mm semi-auto sniper rifle.

And yet, with a budget of FIFTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS ( 750,000 pesos ) for each rifle, we end up with the Savage FCP10, a second-rate sniper rifle that almost no one in the US uses!

Darn it, there goes my tax money...


you can read the other comments here:

http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=20311.0
Information is power!
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Tormentor
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I thought Timawa posters are a cut above the rest - highly perceptive and very intelligent, unlike us idiotic & amateurish PDFF wannabe military experts. :devilwink:

But hey Adroth, what happened to your boys?

Consider this mamiyapis, where is his common sense? Is it too difficult for him to analyze that a regiment-size unit like the SAF cannot possibly deploy 111 snipers?

A sniper needs a spotter so add another 111 for a total of 222 personnel, quite a lot of people doing sniping duties for a regimental force.

Why not consider the possibility that the 111 Savage rifles are distributed to OTHER units within the PNP, not just the SAF?

But then, I could be wrong, am not much of an expert anyway.

And this prairiefire, his knowledge of weapons is truly admirable, but when it comes to bashing the PNP for its arms purchases, he almost always shoots himself in the mouth.

My sentido komon tells me that this 750,000 (or 810,000 as corrected by others) sniper rifle that he ranted about is NOT the Savage, I believe the 32 million budgeted for 40 rifles per PhilGEPS was for another rifle.

Why? Because the article about the Savage had stated that the 111 rifles have already been delivered to the PNP prior to the PhilGEPS posting and a source inside the PNP told me that the PNP's own CT units have a certain type of topnotch precision rifle that are also in the inventory of some of Europe's top police CT units.

Now Mr. Davinci should really confirm this or else I will be the next target of mr. prairiefire's savage mouth, or worse, I will be staring at the business end of one of his assault rifles. :armytwisted:





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Davinci
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The PNP's FERFRANS TSR2 based on the Savage sniper rifle was acquired for P140,000, scope & accessories included.

Not all of the 111 rifles are with the SAF, other PNP groups/units were also issued the rifles.

This weapon might not be the best sniper rifle in the world as some so-called experts would argue but it serves the PNP well.

The rifle has consistent submoa accuracy and is very robust, it is doing very well in the field and with the PNP's basic sniper cadre and sustainment training program.

The notice posted by philgeps was for another type of sniper rifle package.

I hope this clarifies the misconceptions.
:aberet:
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MSantor
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Jun 20 2010, 10:31 AM
I thought Timawa posters are a cut above the rest - highly perceptive and  very intelligent, unlike us idiotic & amateurish PDFF wannabe military experts.  :devilwink:  

But hey Adroth, what happened to your boys?

(Moderator hat on)

Tormentor,

You will NOT make any comments slamming another forum- especially one whose themes and aims are the same as ours- at this site.

That is your warning.

If you want to still discuss the PNP sniper rifles, do so, but STAY ON TOPIC!

:nono:

:btt:
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." - Henry Ford

"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill


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Uzi 0
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Davinci
Jun 20 2010, 10:41 PM
The PNP's FERFRANS TSR2 based on the Savage sniper rifle was acquired for P140,000, scope & accessories included.

Not all of the 111 rifles are with the SAF, other PNP groups/units were also issued the rifles.

This weapon might not be the best sniper rifle in the world as some so-called experts would argue but it serves the PNP well.

The rifle has consistent submoa accuracy and is very robust, it is doing very well in the field and with the PNP's basic sniper cadre and sustainment training program.

The notice posted by philgeps was for another type of sniper rifle package.

I hope this clarifies the misconceptions.
:aberet:

Thanks for the reply sir D.

but here are other issues that need to be clarified, sir, presented by some members of Timawa:

1. If the PNP is satisfied with the performance of the 140,000-peso Savage, why is the PNP acquiring "another type of sniper rifle" with estimated price of P810,000 per rifle?

2. Does this not complicate further the PNP's logistic support considering it has to supply and maintain a wide variety of weapons?

3.Why the need for a more expensive sniper rifle when the Savage is currently serving the PNP's need well at a much lower price?

4. If some of the Savage rifles were also issued to ther PNP units, why is it that most reports state that these rifles were delivered to the SAF and to be used by SAF?

5. How come sir that there was a PhilGEPS posting for this "other type of sniper rifle" while there were hardly any documentation for the public to scrutinize about the acquisition of the Savage and the FERFRANS rifles, both supplied by FERFRANS?

Thank you in advance sir D.





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seven bravo
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Good afternoon gentlemen (and ladies) , Im not Davinci but I can share a thing or two : )

My answer to uzi0's queries (his handle fits his line of questioning, usisero talaga, hahaha)

The Savage as supplied by Ferfrans (Ferfrans TSR)is what we could consider as the PNP’s basic sniper rifle, it is relatively low-priced and indeed is performing satisfactorily within the performance envelope expected of a weapon in its price range. The price of 140K is about right although I know of some rifles deployed in the field with upgraded optics that considerably cost more than rifle itself.

The TSRs are used to train the PNP's sniper cadre and at the same are also used in the field much like Phil Air Force's trainer airplanes. And like PAF's pilots, some of the better shooters need to upgrade to better platforms for better operational capability, hence the acquisition of an advanced sniper system.

The basic and advanced sniper systems are actually standard in other police forces,. Consider for example our neighbor, Malaysia, which unlike us, has no active insurgency: the Royal Malaysian Police’s equivalent of the PNP-SAF is the Pasukan Gerakan Khas or PGK. The PGK has the Remington 700 as its basic sniper rifle and 2 types of advanced sniper rifles – the H&K PSG1 & the AI Arctic Warfare, & possibly also the AI Arctic Warfare Magnum.

The small but extremely well-funded Singapore Police Force’s special tactics units even have a wider variety of sniper rifles.

Now some of you gentlemen would argue that we are not as rich as Singapore, Malaysia or Thailand, that buying 111 basic sniper rifles and 40 advanced sniper results are a waste of resources, or 111+40 are more than enough, that we should not be copycats, that the PNP should only have a single type of sniper rifle etc. Do take note that unlike those countries (with the exception of Thailand), we are fighting various insurgencies and active terrorist groups, plus the numerous criminal syndicates. Truth be told, 111+40 sniper rifles are not enough to cover the entire country’s active and potential flashpoints.

The 32M budgeted for the PNP advanced sniper rifle procurement is not just for the rifles, but includes advanced scopes, which as a system, would provide your PNP’s CT units precision shooting capabilities comparable to some of the world’s highly capable CT units.

I hope the above answered questions 1, 2 & 3.

For question no. 4 – most of the reports stated that all of the TSRs were delivered to the PNP-SAF. Easy, the SAF is the lead sniper training unit of the PNP, snipers from other PNP units go to the SAF for training and even AFP snipers cross train with the SAF and vice versa. Not all of the TSRs are with the SAF sniper teams, several are with other PNP sniper teams.

For question no. 5 - regarding the controversies surrounding the purchase of weapons from Ferfrans, all I could say is the people behind Ferfrans are very well-connected with certain powerful officials of the soon-to-depart administration. The PNP hierarchy and SAF itself have not much of a choice since these officials have powers even above that of the Director General. In short, Ferfrans got it easier because it has more powerful friends in the right places.

Yes, some of you would point out that there could have been better choices, but what to do, as end-users, we did the best we could in executing our duties to the best of our abilities with the tools given to us by the powers that be.

I just hope and pray that the promise of a cleaner and more transparent governance brought by the incoming administration would have an immediate effect on the PNP.
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spraret
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Welcome to PDFF sir Seven Bravo.

:armycheers:
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seven bravo
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Thanks also for the warm welcome!

:armycheers:
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valiant
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didu
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now I know, the FERFRANS TSR-2 and the Savage of the topic's title are one and the same rifle :drunk:
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