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The PhilAF does not need LIFT aircraft
Topic Started: Sep 13 2009, 01:09 AM (4,891 Views)
Vermonter
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Seriously guys, how do (did) we in the US transition from a T-45 to a F-18E/F or T-38 to a F-15 or F-16? Are you saying that the S211 is inferior to the T-45 or T-38?
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shooter
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Vermonter
Oct 4 2009, 03:14 AM
So you do not think the S211 is a LIFT (Lead-In-Fighter-Trainer)?

The SIAI-Marchetti S-211 is basic turbofan trainer. By the way, the S-211 was not made by Augusta. The S-211 has already evolved as the M-311 and now manufactured by Aermacchi.

Aermacchi designates the M-311 (or the earlier S-211) as a basic turbofan trainer and not as a LIFT jet.

Posted Image

For more infor, kindly visit the source -

http://www.aermacchi.it/commercial/military-trainers
...live for nothing ...but die for something - John Rambo
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truegrit


You might noticed that our PAF Command does not really follow a normal doctrine about LIFT and Air Superiority type of jet.

AS211 - the one used by our AirForce is an attack version of the S211A Basic jet Trainer aircraft. Is LIFT really necessary to be a Transonic or Supersonic type?

For US Standards- F5s are not a Full-mission Fighter jet but as Tactical Fighter jet which is now consider as LIFT since US used it for Tactical combat training as aggressor while 3rd world countries used it as Air superiority fighters like our PAF.

What is important is that a Fighter jet can do the role or missions that its supposed to do. With budget constraint country like us, a LIFT like the A/T-50 could easily be convert it to Air Superiority or Air Defense to fill-up that role.
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Vermonter
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Really, so now the S211 was never marketed by Agusta?
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raider1011


The S211's USAF counterpart is the T-6 Texan, not the T-45 or the T-38. The S211 actually lost to the Texan (a propeller-driven aircraft) in a head-to-head contest for the USAF's basic trainer contract.

Back then, the PAF's plan was to get one jet for basic training (S211), then another for advanced/LIFT (the Hawk). What they've ended-up doing is less "doctrine" than a stopgap from sheer lack of options. Panakip-butas, to put it bluntly.

God grant me the courage not to give up what I think is right even though I think it is hopeless.

|| Chester W. Nimitz

Loyalty to the Nation ALL the time, loyalty to the Government when it deserves it.

|| Mark Twain
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PilotoRico
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Let's face the fact that when you buy a LIFT (M.346 or T-50) plus a fighter aircraft (F-16/F-18) you also need a very large budget :scared: We all know that the current budget is not enough to keep our Hueys, Broncos, AS.211 and C-130's in the air. So currently the wish for a LIFT is on the shelf, and stay there unless some one is to provide us (US) aircraft through FMS programme.

To fight the Philippines main problem (the terrorists) you need another kind of aircraft, not LIFT or F/A-18's! Perhaps the combination T-50/A-50 would fit the Philippines Air Force well (and reliable source). Get 18 A-50's and 8 T-50's, you have a good platform plus no maintenance/logistic problems.

I still think that the step from AS.211 --> A-50 (or even F-5E) is good enough.

What is your opinion about that?

Saludos.
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shooter
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PilotoRico
Oct 4 2009, 02:37 PM
Let's face the fact that when you buy a LIFT (M.346 or T-50) plus a fighter aircraft (F-16/F-18) you also need a very large budget :scared: We all know that the current budget is not enough to keep our Hueys, Broncos, AS.211 and C-130's in the air. So currently the wish for a LIFT is on the shelf, and stay there unless some one is to provide us (US) aircraft through FMS programme.

To fight the Philippines main problem (the terrorists) you need another kind of aircraft, not LIFT or F/A-18's! Perhaps the combination T-50/A-50 would fit the Philippines Air Force well (and reliable source). Get 18 A-50's and 8 T-50's, you have a good platform plus no maintenance/logistic problems.

I still think that the step from AS.211 --> A-50 (or even F-5E) is good enough.

What is your opinion about that?

Saludos.

The S-211 is a basic turbofan trainer and the AS-211 is a variant combining the basic turbofan trainer role and attack role.

T-50 is classified as a LIFT jet and T/A-50 is a variant combining the LIFT role and attack role.

So, if PhAF acquires the T-50 or A-50 or the T/A-50, PhAF will already have a LIFT jet whether you like it or not.
...live for nothing ...but die for something - John Rambo
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Vermonter
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Cessna 172, Agusta SF-260, Agusta S211 and then MRF.... now you want to purhase a LIFT before, a MRF?
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shooter
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Oct 6 2009, 01:18 AM
Cessna 172, Agusta SF-260, Agusta S211 and then MRF.... now you want to purhase a LIFT before, a MRF?

PhAF sequence...

T-41, Alenia Aermacchi SF-260TP/MP/WP, SIAI-Marchetti S-211/AS-211, then none...

Maybe, a LIFT with a secondary role as an attack jet would do for now as the next, then comes the real MRF.

The PhAF may skip a dedicated LIFT aircraft but not the essential LIFT "training/schooling".
...live for nothing ...but die for something - John Rambo
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raider1011


A-50/T-50B works for the PAF: You get your LIFT aircraft--and your interim fighter in one airframe. The A-50 has the engine of the Gripen and the Hornet, so your support crew's gaining usable experience as well. Obviously cost is a problem. Maybe getting the A-50 in an arms package with other Korean military exports (like naval vessels and helicopters) will help?

RE: Doing away with MRFs outright, that deserves a thread of its own IMO.
God grant me the courage not to give up what I think is right even though I think it is hopeless.

|| Chester W. Nimitz

Loyalty to the Nation ALL the time, loyalty to the Government when it deserves it.

|| Mark Twain
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