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Near our waters; PLAN vs USN
Topic Started: Jun 28 2008, 08:06 AM (7,240 Views)
truegrit


Is there any possibility that those PLAN subs are supplying weapons to Militants like the NPA and MILF?

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predator
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Dapat i-confiscate yung submarine ... ... para atin na lang he he ... sarap mangarap bwahahaha
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saver111
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PDFF Mod Group
This is a re-post from the China Watch Thread

Quote:
 
China increases submarine patrols - report

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WASHINGTON (AFP) - China nearly doubled the number of patrols by its fleet of attack submarines last year, surpassing Russia but still far behind the United States, the Federation of American Scientists reported Tuesday. The report, based on declassified information provided by US naval intelligence, said Chinese attack submarines conducted 12 patrols in 2008, compared to seven in 2007, two in 2006 and none in 2005. "While the increase in submarine patrols is important, it has to be seen in comparison with the size of the Chinese submarine fleet," said Hans Kristensen, director of the organization's nuclear information project. "With approximately 54 submarines, the patrol rate means that each submarine on average goes on patrol once every four and a half years," he said. The patrols may have been carried out by just the most modern and capable types of submarines in the Chinese fleet, the report said, noting that a new class of nuclear-powered Shang-class attack submarines is replacing the aging Han-class. In an interview, Kristensen said the information, although sketchy, was a window into how Chinese naval operations are changing as it builds up its forces. "We don't know where they went or for how long. But it certainly seems to be a new mission. They have been very modest in their patrols in the past," he said. "The fact that from one year to another they have doubled their patrols seems that they have something new to do," he said. "It could be, as we've heard for the last four years or so, an attempt to expand their naval defense barrier further eastward into the Pacific," he said. In comparison with other major navies, a dozen patrols a year "are not much," the report said. "The patrol rate of the US attack submarine fleet, which is focused on long-range patrols and probably operate regularly near the Chinese coast, is much higher with each submarine conducting at least one extended patrol per year," it said. "But the Chinese patrol rate is higher than that of the Russian navy, which in 2008 conducted only seven attack submarine patrols, the same as in 2007," it said. China has yet to conduct a single patrol by a ballistic missile submarine, according to the report. "The old Xia, China's first SSBN, completed a multi-year overhaul in late-2007 but did not sail on patrol in 2008," it said. "Neither the Xia-class (Type-092) ballistic missile submarine nor the new Jin-class (Type-094) have ever conducted a deterrent patrol," it said.

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/090203/afp/0902...acificnews.html
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Justice for Daniel Lorenz Jacinto

HELP END PIRACY NOW!:
http://www.itfseafarers.org/petition.cfm
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seWer Rat
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amateur sewer cleaner

Chinese sub, US sonar collision accidental: report

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...GQ3o8AD98QSP400

BEIJING (AP) — A state-run newspaper said Monday that a Chinese submarine's reported collision with an underwater sonar apparatus towed by a U.S. destroyer last week in the South China Sea was likely an accident.

The official China Daily cited Chinese military experts as saying the submarine's collision with the sonar array connected to the USS John S. McCain while sailing near the Philippines probably occurred due to a misjudgment of distance.

Yin Zhuo, a senior researcher with the People's Liberation Army's Navy Equipment Research Center, said the American destroyer appeared to have failed to detect the submarine, while the Chinese vessel set its distance from the McCain assuming it was not carrying sonar arrays, according to the paper.

The sonar array scans and listens for foreign threats that also include mines and torpedoes.

Military officials would not confirm the incident. China's Defense Ministry did not respond to questions sent by fax Monday while calls to its offices rang unanswered.

U.S. Pacific Fleet spokesman Lt. Matt Galan said Sunday the multifunction towed array sonar attached to the USS John S. McCain was damaged Wednesday, but did not say how the damage occurred.

"All we know is that the towed array was damaged," Galan said. "There's some suspicion out about what it is, but that's really all we know."

CNN reported that the latest incident occurred near Subic Bay, off the coast of the Philippines. The network cited unidentified U.S. military officials as calling it an "inadvertent encounter" and that the Navy did not believe it was a deliberate act of Chinese harassment. The CNN report said the incident occurred Thursday.

Philippine Defense Undersecretary Alberto Valenzuela said the incident involving the McCain happened 125 nautical miles from Subic Bay in the northwestern Philippines, outside the country's territory.

The McCain took part in a military exercise in the Philippines and left May 22, the Philippine navy said.

Pentagon officials have said there were four incidents earlier this year where Chinese-flagged fishing vessels maneuvered close to unarmed U.S. ships crewed by civilians and used by the Pentagon to do underwater surveillance and submarine hunting missions.
To avoid criticism, write nothing, say nothing, do nothing, BE NOTHING.
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israeli
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correct me if i am wrong but the US Navy long has issues as far as detecting diesel-electric submarines is concerned. the incident near Subic is not the first and the last time that the Americans were caught by surprise by Chinese submariners. i wonder now if the Americans had learned anything from their lease of one Swedish Gotland class diesel-electric submarine for their training.

however, my concern here really is the fact that Chinese military forces could easily penetrate Philippine territory and violate Philippine sovereignty. the incident involving the US Navy Arleigh Burke class destroyer USS John McCain and that PLAN submarine near Subic may not be the first time that the Chinese were able to get into Philippine territory.

what if the Chinese do it again, this time by putting a naval blockade of Manila Bay and other vital Philippine ports? what are we going to do? are we just going to act like cry babies by going to the United Nations and crying foul over Chinese actions within Philippine territory during a session of the UN Security Council, only to be vetoed and scorned in public by permanent member China? are we just going to accept the fact that we would just allow the Chinese or any other unfriendly military force to continuously violate Philippine territorial integrity and sovereignty?

China's growing military might and aggressive behavior, especially their desire to push their sphere of influence eastward into the vast Pacific Ocean, should be a concern for us. this is now the time for us to strongly consider doing the Colombian approach- invest on credible external defenses while dealing with internal problems being posed by the Chinese-sponsored NPA and the Malaysian-sponsored MILF and MNLF. we simply cannot allow China to trample upon us just like that.
"To secure peace is to prepare for war." - Carl Von Clausewitz
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Zero wing
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Wow to think that they are that close to us right now i started crying today over it am not safe in my own home we should organized to small militant units and stock on ammo and supply don't even volunteer in the AFP its useless anyway this reminds me of per world war 2 philippines man talk about defenseless? anyway we should start doing all legal means to push for military and security reforms at all cost and prepare for the war to follow because those sick chincoms are coming just like the jap!!!!!!!
"No sacrifice is too great in the service of freedom."

“As long as we are not willing to provide an adequate, suitable and capable defense for this country, we will be oppressed, demeaned and dishonored. We will be the stepping mat of every country in this region,”(Senate President Juan Ponce Enrile)

“Just because we are a very weak country militarily, we should not be taken advantage of by more powerful countries" (Senate committee on national defense and security chairman Panfilo Lacson)
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C.C.
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Zero wing
Jun 15 2009, 09:08 PM
Wow to think that they are that close to us right now i started crying today over it am not safe in my own home we should organized to small militant units and stock on ammo and supply don't even volunteer in the AFP its useless anyway this reminds me of per world war 2 philippines man talk about defenseless? anyway we should start doing all legal means to push for military and security reforms at all cost and prepare for the war to follow because those sick chincoms are coming just like the jap!!!!!!!

Even worse than Japs because they are commies. Sh#t!

At least in pre-ww2 time, we have MRFs, and MBTs. P40s and Stewarts. But now? It will be like, "The one with the rifle shoots! The one without follows him, If the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots!
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Ay put&! Nahulog....................
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pachador


showbiz news - Singson's private submarine has now been unleashed to look for that sub hehehe. , anyway, good for Singson, at least he has got his own submarine.
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pachador


‘Resolve external defense issues’

Business Mirror
Written by Estrella Torres / Reporter
Monday, 15 June 2009

THE collision involving US and Chinese military ships near the territorial waters off Subic Bay may not have happened within Philippine territory, but it signals the urgency of resolving external defense issues, especially since Manila has allowed an expansion of military exercises with America, senior diplomats said on Monday.

They also criticized what appeared to be an attitude of nonchalance by the defense department on the matter.

One source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said military rivals US and China playing “cat and mouse” near Philippine territorial waters should clearly indicate the need to establish strong external-security defenses.

“We are not gravely concerned because this incident took place outside Philippine territorial waters, but we would rather not have these cat-and-mouse games taking place in nearby waters,” said the official.

He explained that the presence of the Chinese submarine off Subic Bay, where US military ships are also present, indicate Beijing’s “resurgence as a military superpower.”

He added: “This incident opens us to the need to strengthen our external defenses and reconfigure our military policy.”

Another diplomat, meanwhile, blamed the government’s continuing military alliance with the US through the Visiting Forces Agreement (VFA) for putting the Philippines at risk of having to face outside security threats, especially coming from America’s security rivals like China.

“That’s the consequence of having the VFA here; that incident could not have happened near our territorial waters if we didn’t have that kind of agreement with the US,” said another senior diplomat.

Relatedly, Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) spokesman Eduardo Malaya said all that the department is aware of is the presence of the US navy ship, identified as the John McCain Sr., participating in the Carat 09 maritime exercises along with the Philippine navy.

“The joint military exercises started in May 21 and the Philippine authorities knew about the presence of this US navy ship within neighboring waters,” said Malaya in a news briefing at the DFA on Monday.

He said the US navy ship had a brief stop in Subic to refuel and for some logistical requirements.

“We knew about its presence and it had our clearance,” Malaya clarified.

But asked about the presence of a Chinese submarine near Philippine territorial waters and its near collision with the US boat, the DFA spokesman refused to comment.

Defense Undersecretary Alberto Valenzuela said the incident was not a cause for concern because it happened 125 nautical miles off Subic and is not within Philippine territorial jurisdiction.
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pachador


Dangerous Seas

by Prof. Harry L. Roque, Jr., Chair, Center for International Law


The reported collision between a Chinese submarine and a sonar array being
towed by the American Destroyer John McCain late last week highlights a
security threat made possible by the recently enacted Philippine baselines
law.

Prior to the enactment of the said law, the waters in and around the islands
of our archipelago are "internal waters". Unlike territorial seas, foreign
vessels, including submarines and warships, could not "sail through" our
internal waters without our express consent.

Under customary international law, these vessels may only "sail through" in
that maritime zone known as the territorial seas or the waters within 12
nautical miles from our baselines.

The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Seas (UNCLOS), as
implemented by the 2009 Baselines laws, does away with this prohibition as
it now classifies the waters in and around our islands as "archipelagic
waters".

Under this legal regime, submarines and warships not only have the right to
innocent passage, but aircrafts may also exercise the right to overflight,
with our without our consent.

This is precisely why concerned citizens led by Prof Merlin Magallona of the
University of the Philippines College of Law impugned the constitutionality
of the said law.

Yet this is also perhaps why Philippine and American authorities, despite
wire reports quoting sources that the collision occurred "off the coast of
Subic ", now insist that the accident could have happened in international
waters.

To confirm that the collision happened where it was reported, a stone's
throw away from the former American naval facility, may yet convince the
magistrates of the Philippine Supreme Court of the folly that Philippine
legislators exposed the country to when they legislated to implement the
provisions of the UNCLOS relative to the regime applicable to archipelagic
states.

Certainly, the collision is one of the may dreaded possibilities that
opponents of the law have stated in their petition; that is, the security
implications of granting submarines and foreign warships access to all the
straits and channels comprising our archipelago. But beyond these
constitutional issues, this collision highlights even more difficult issues
that should now be the subject of intense public debates.

To begin with, while the UNCLOS grants submarines and warships the right to
exercise innocent passage through territorial seas and archipelagic waters,
such must nonetheless be exercised in connection with a continuous and
uninterrupted journey intended only to pass through these waters.

And yet, the question is : what were the Chinese submarine and the American
destroyer doing in our waters in the first place? The waters off Subic are
not used as established sea lanes precisely because the South China sea
already serves that purpose.

Moreover, what was an American destroyer with a sonar equipment intended to
detect specifically the presence of submarines, doing in such close
proximity to a Chinese submarine off the coast of Subic?

Philippine and American authorities would want us to believe that the
collision was purely accidental and that their proximity to each other was
coincidental. This, however, is contrary to human experience. The more
likely scenario was that, in fact, the John McCain, specially fitted to
detect submarines, could have been in pursuit of the Chinese submarine.

Philippine Navy officials have at least conceded that they did not receive
any request from either the Chinese or the Americans to have their vessels
sail through our waters. This was enough for the Philippine Navy to conclude
that in the absence of such a request that the collision could only have
happened in international waters. The problem with this theory is that it
accords the superpowers too much benefit of the doubt.

The more plausible scenario is that they were in fact in a dangerous naval
powers' game of hide-and-seek and could simply not care less that they were
doing it in Philippine waters for two reasons: one, the poor state of our
Navy; and two, the continuing subservience of the Arroyo government to both
Beijing and Washington DC would make any protest from our end wholly
immaterial and irrelevant.

Further, the 1987 Constitution provides for a state policy that declares the
Philippines to be a nuclear free zone. How do we now implement this policy
when Congress has just granted all vessels, including nuclear powered ones,
access to almost the entirely of our waters? Worse, in case of a radioactive
contamination as a result of collision such as this very recent one, who
will pay for the cost of clean up? An even more basic question is whether we
already have existing technology to deal with such radioactive contamination
in the first place?

Finally, the tendency of Philippine officials to again seek refuge under the
doctrine of classified information on ground national security in refusing
to divulge all facts relating to this collision is particularly worrisome.

The fact that our waters could already be used by superpowers as theatres of
war certainly makes this matter one imbued with intense public interest. And
yet, the refusal of all the countries concerned to even acknowledge where
exactly the collision occurred violates the right of the Filipino people to
information on matters involving public interest.

This is perhaps why the incident is living proof that our waters,
particularly with the Baselines law, have indeed become dangerous seas.
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