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| CAS and Forward Air Controller; ... Cobras arent enough | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 18 2008, 04:16 PM (1,676 Views) | |
| flipzi | Jul 21 2008, 03:45 PM Post #11 |
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R-A-T-S
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boils down to this question .... "IF THAT IS SO, THEN WHY CANT YOU DEFEAT THE ENEMY WE GOT HERE"? |
![]() " Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution " " People don't care what we know until they know we care. " getflipzi@yahoo.com | |
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| saver111 | Jul 21 2008, 03:55 PM Post #12 |
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PDFF Moderator
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Seems we are going into circles here, as to whom to blame for not ending the insurgency, FORWARD AIR CONTROLLER
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Justice for Daniel Lorenz Jacinto HELP END PIRACY NOW!: http://www.itfseafarers.org/petition.cfm | |
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| flipzi | Jul 21 2008, 05:03 PM Post #13 |
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R-A-T-S
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Si Jedi kasi eh. tinatatanung pa yung SOT.... alam ko rin yun... aahhhh Special Okrayan Teams yun diba? Tagal na naming topic dito yan po. ehehe But going back to topic, remember there were two issues that led to the failure of the CAS to provide support. One is ... signal frequency (misunderstanding on what freq to use), but this was contested. The more believable was that the radios simply run out of battery power. But even so, with the result of the operation in Mindoro, (using 2 MD520 and UH-1H gunship) , the operation was successful but still didnt give us a laudable result. Probably, aside from the air assets and communication, the military should focus on "combined air-ground assault" training as well. The tactics on this maybe different from pure ground assault or air assault. In this arrangement, one must know exactly how he can complement the strenght of the other. The ground troops providing enemy location and ensuring that they will keep a safe distance so that the CAS units can deliver the strike without hurting them. The CAS will ensure efficient use of its load. Precise and just about the needed amount so it can sustain the support longer. The CAS can also provide monitoring of enemy movement or direction. The ground troops can use this info for their manuevers. The CAS with its 20mm gun and rockets can serve as a blocking force as well. The pursuing ground troops can then easily pick out the enemy and overpower them. And so on. |
![]() " Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution " " People don't care what we know until they know we care. " getflipzi@yahoo.com | |
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| BARBER 6 | Jul 21 2008, 11:37 PM Post #14 |
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Those are basic skills that were taught although, I don't deny that some will eventually forget all of those during an ensuing firefight. There is always a Fire Support Plan in every Operation. Remember in Tipo Tipo that the Guns let loose only 6 rounds and then it was stopped because some one from the Peace Panel, AFAIK, told the units that the attacking rebels are friendlies... |
| "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke | |
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| flipzi | Jul 22 2008, 04:49 PM Post #15 |
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R-A-T-S
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Fellows, The US itself is serious about the roles of every team. The enemies of today have progressed as well. They have learned and crafted techniques aimed at mitigating or undermining the improvements or advantages of the military. The US has realized that you cannot just send CAS and gain success. In their studies, ... PROCEDURES AND GUIDELINES MUST BE MADE AND PURSUED IN ORDER TO GET THE BENEFITS OF THE COMBINED STRENGTH OF AIR AND GROUND FORCES and even NAVAL or MARINE FORCES. The key in this is the word "INTEGRATION".
Joint operation is a complex operation. Commanders and all other participants must know how they can fulfill their part. Else, CAS will be of little benefit.
I humbly suggest that the next Balikatan should focus on combined air and ground operation or the application of CAS in the ground operations. For our Marines, combined air, naval and marine unit operations should be undertaken. Better if the US will send their Super Cobra for the next balikatan. Another thing is on the application of "surface fire support" (like IFVs) based on the local battlefield situation. |
![]() " Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution " " People don't care what we know until they know we care. " getflipzi@yahoo.com | |
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| saver111 | Jul 22 2008, 05:16 PM Post #16 |
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PDFF Moderator
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Super Cobras? Again? They've been bringing it in a number of times already with some of our pilots tagging along (and guess what, have been evaluating it)![]()
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Justice for Daniel Lorenz Jacinto HELP END PIRACY NOW!: http://www.itfseafarers.org/petition.cfm | |
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| flipzi | Jul 22 2008, 05:46 PM Post #17 |
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R-A-T-S
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Yeah, i remember that. Sadly, even pilots that I know of dont feel like getting that model. THEY WANT BRAND NEW CHOPPERS instead and not hand me down ones. They want the concept,... but would prefer other models if given the go signal by the higher ups, like .... Ate Glo perhaps. Probably, the new NCAH is a product of those exercises. But i suggest they get more and train the men more on how they can INTEGRATE that added punch to the whole operation. |
![]() " Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution " " People don't care what we know until they know we care. " getflipzi@yahoo.com | |
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| BARBER 6 | Jul 23 2008, 12:56 AM Post #18 |
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Good training for our troops. These knowledge is good in preparation for future acquisitions of equipment but how would the Cobras help us in our present situation? Waste of time. |
| "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke | |
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| flipzi | Jul 23 2008, 05:50 PM Post #19 |
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R-A-T-S
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I believe you were as well right about the concern on vegetation. That's why the ground troops must satisfy the requirements iin the battlefield to the extent of their ability as much as possible in situations where CAS is unavailable. Nonetheless, we must consider the fact as well that modern technologies have found a way to circumvent these hindrances. Tactics or joint ops provided by the embedding of ground-based FAC or the TAC into the Army ground units are being employed by the US forces in their own setup. Moreover, the battlefield is not always thick in vegetation. In fact, when the enemy gets out of their lair, they venture into open spaces. Another is that, the choppers do not need to know exactly where the rebels are. Just like in artillery fire support, the ground units simply provide the "general location" of the rebels and the rain of artillery rounds does the job. The Super Cobra's 20mm gun burst can provide effective fire suppression, disorient enemy positions and movements without endangering friendlies nearby. The reason why the benefit of CAS (in our case the MG520 and OV10) arent being maximized is because we dont have TAC in the Army ground units. Knowing how to direct fire like in a case of a team leader requesting artillery fire support is not similar to the duty of TAC or Terminal Attack Controller. The TAC must be "adept" in the charcterristics of the CAS aircraft, its capabilities and weaponry. He must know what damage each ammunition can do. He must know which ammunition is suitable (rocket, guided bomb or 20mm gun) relative to the request and the safety considerations on the friendly forces. The TAC responsibility is a different science. I would sugggest permanently assigning Air Liaision Officers down to the Battalion level. These will help planners in the company and battalion level draw the CAS plan. It is essential that all combat units must have their own TAC to ensure proper application of CAS. The TAC in close coordination with Army team leader plans how they can employ CAS. The TAC will directly communicate with the pilot and coordinate the operation. The TAC being with the ground unit will ensure the safety of the troops by preventing CAS assests from unleashing the load dangerously close to them or accidentally. Visual confirmation by the TAC or both TAC and pilot will ensure this. Ways in marking targets can be done by the TAC easily. These tasks cannot be done the typical radio operator who is untrainded for this job. Another option of course is to train these radio operators on TAC tasks. The Air Force on the other hand can reallign its men in the 700th SPOW for TAC tasks instead. Dirrect action through combat action is not their prime role anyway. It's the Army's. The Army elite forces like Scout Rangers, Army SFs and all manuever forces should all have a dedicated TAC in their teams. As well as Air Liaison Officers down to the battalion levels. I suggest that the next Balikatan would focus on training our men on TAC and the employment of joint air-ground ops. Identification of problems related to thick vegetation and all should be studied. Then use that to adjust the strategy. |
![]() " Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution " " People don't care what we know until they know we care. " getflipzi@yahoo.com | |
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FORWARD AIR CONTROLLER


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8:49 AM Jul 11