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Topic Started: Oct 14 2004, 05:57 PM (19,124 Views)
flipzi
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R-A-T-S

Uhuh..

i can buy that one!

:armyLol:

The Chinese tried their best to fool us just to steal Scarborough shoal from us anyway. :exactly:
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" Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution "


" People don't care what we know until they know we care. "


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Erwin Rommel
Trainee
[ *  * ]
flipzi
Nov 22 2004, 12:17 PM
China put up structures on the Scarborough shoal sometime during the stint as president of Gen. Fidel V. Ramos.

That shoal was being claimed by the Philippines also.

Gen. Ramos, instead of stopping the Chinese bowed down to their bullying lest this will drag the country into a full blown war with China.

Instead of stopping China's effort to dominate that cluster of islets, reefs and shoals he just allowed China to accomplish that objective by hiding his tail behind his legs.

He could have averted that had he pushed for the modernization of the AFP much earlier or blasted the structures right before these were developed into a much larger structure that is now even housing satelite communications equipment.

That structure may even be used for intel gathering, dont you think?

Sooner or later, when the right opportune time comes for China, it will again employ its "talk and take" strategy untill all other occupants of the Spratly's are kicked out.

He's been doing that to Taiwan and he has done that to the Philippines, what other reasons will deter China to repeat that bullying strategy again?

Have you ever considered the implications of what you are suggesting? Do you want to start an open war with an irresponsible and expansionist China by giving them the perfect pretext to take all of the Philippines' claims in the Spratly's, and what about all of the soldiers that you will be condemming to their deaths by ordering them to fight a war with an enemy that you know fully well you have no hope of winning? Have you even tought about how their parents will react when their sons and daughters return home in body bags in order to fight your hopeless errand? And have you even thought that by fighting this war, you may just bring about hundreds, or even thousands of deaths to civilians by allowing the Chinese to attack a defenseless Manila in order to destroy what is left of our armed forces so that we will not have the capacity to send more reinforcements to our claims in the Spratly Islands, have you ever considered that because of your foolish military adventurism, our country will lose what little it has left of its territory in the Spratly's, and also cause our military to be decimated in the process, along with hundreds of our own citizens being killed due to a foolish campaign? What we should do is to just send a strongly worded diplomatic protest, intensify the buildup of our armed forces, and beef up our defenses in the parts of the Spratly's that we still hold in order so that this type of outrage does not occur again, and remember, you do not fight a war that you cannot win, because war is not just a computer or a video game, real people's lives are at stake here.
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flipzi
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R-A-T-S

Quote:
 
Have you ever considered the implications of what you are suggesting?  Do you want to start an open war with an irresponsible and expansionist China by giving them the perfect pretext to take all of the Philippines' claims in the Spratly's,  


Who says we are going to war with them?

We just want to protect our interest there.

Quote:
 
and what about all of the soldiers that you will be condemming to their deaths by ordering them to fight a war with an enemy that you know fully well you have no hope of winning?


So the deaths in the encounters in Mindanao is not like that of condemning to their deaths that you were talking about?

No hope of winning? Well, in my point of view we could win. Maybe, you just dont know yet how to win such battle?

:dunno:

The rest of your statement is plain fallacy.

That is what you call "fear for fighting for what is right".

Oh well, that's just my view though. You could be right just like Ramos.

Just dont forget that the Chinese owns the Scarborough shoal now...

...AS A RESULT OF THAT KIND OF THINKING. :armywink:
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" Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution "


" People don't care what we know until they know we care. "


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Viking
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I am not sure if i have this right but from what i have read on the net the Chinese starts with:

1. Put up a marker
2. Build a structure
3. Build a bigger structure
4, Station men i the structure

from what i read no one contested the Chinese claim by blowing up the markers because PN didnt patrol the area for a couple of monts. This way the Chinese have gained some "de facto" rights, and even some legal claims.

So what can you do?

PATROL THE SPRATLEYS 25/7 365

for this you need OPVs, patrol ships and patrol aeroplanes. This the Brits learned a lesson in the Cod wars with Island (dispute over fishing righs in the EEZ)

Quote:
 
The confrontations between British and Icelandic ships in the early 1970s, nicknamed the Cod Wars, demonstrated to the Admiralty that the use of frigates in such situations was far from ideal, as RN vessels played cat-and-mouse with Icelandic patrol ships.

The best solution seemed to be a class of ship designed in the style of the vessels which plied their trade in that inhospitable region – ocean-going trawlers.


Island Class

Farewell to the Island class
Draft beer, not people
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Erwin Rommel
Trainee
[ *  * ]
flipzi
Jan 21 2005, 04:44 PM
Quote:
 
Have you ever considered the implications of what you are suggesting?  Do you want to start an open war with an irresponsible and expansionist China by giving them the perfect pretext to take all of the Philippines' claims in the Spratly's,  


Who says we are going to war with them?

We just want to protect our interest there.

Quote:
 
and what about all of the soldiers that you will be condemming to their deaths by ordering them to fight a war with an enemy that you know fully well you have no hope of winning?


So the deaths in the encounters in Mindanao is not like that of condemning to their deaths that you were talking about?

No hope of winning? Well, in my point of view we could win. Maybe, you just dont know yet how to win such battle?

:dunno:

The rest of your statement is plain fallacy.

That is what you call "fear for fighting for what is right".

Oh well, that's just my view though. You could be right just like Ramos.

Just dont forget that the Chinese owns the Scarborough shoal now...

...AS A RESULT OF THAT KIND OF THINKING. :armywink:

Well the Chinese might just consider an attack on Scarborough Shoal to be an act provocation, and that might just bring a devastating response, well at least in the jungles of Mindanao our soldiers have chance, what chances do our ships and planes have against the PLAN and PLAAF? They will be blown out of the water or sky before they even have a chance to react against the Chinese, much less try to fight them on equal terms, so the only outcome of a major skirmish between China and Philippines can only be a massacre on the Philippine side, it will make Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo seem like an astounding victory by comparison, the bottom line is that we stand no chance against them in our present form so it is better not to provoke them and just beef up our defenses, dig in, and consolidate on what we have, not even Singapore can win an out and out, no holds barred war with the PLAN, how much less the Philippine Navy, never mind our impotent air force, and do you really think our country's already stretched military infrastructture can really withstand being bombed to the stone age? We are so behind the Chinese right now it is not even funny. Anyway even in the best case scenario, the best we can hope for is that our forces can act as speed bump that will hopefully be able to hold our part of the Spratly's for one to two weeks until the Americans, British, or Australians arrive to bail us out and relieve our beleaguered forces, and that is presuming that the Philippines is equipped with one to two dozen F-16A/B block 15 or F-5E/F's, which we do not have right now, so even in a best case scenario, I really do not anticipate us being able to hold off the Chinese for more than three weeks, and that is a best case scenario, assuming that we are facing a full blown Chinese counteroffensive. Contrary to what you think, I am in favor of a strong military, I just do not see us being in a position of strenght right now, that is why I am advocating that we just stick to the "speed bump" strategy, that is hold them off for one to two weeks, and just hope that foreign help arrives within that time frame. Wll maybe if it is only markers that are there we can blow them up without risking a military response from the PLAN, but once there are sturtures there, or even if they are at the stage of constructing structures already, then I think that it is best to leave them alone.
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flipzi
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Contrary to what you think, I am in favor of a strong military, I just do not see us being in a position of strenght right now, that is why I am advocating that we just stick to the "speed bump" strategy, that is hold them off for one to two weeks, and just hope that foreign help arrives within that time frame. 


I can agree with that.

Quote:
 
Wll maybe if it is only markers that are there we can blow them up without risking a military response from the PLAN, but once there are sturtures there, or even if they are at the stage of constructing structures already, then I think that it is best to leave them alone.


You have a point there still. Nonetheless, the Navy should have boarded the structures and take the Chinese into custody for illegal entry...just what we always do with the rest of the fishermen caught illegally fishing in those areas. We can just let the diplomatic corps deal with the Chinese govt.

Then we dismantle the structures and field more ships there to prevent the Chinese from moving in further.

Chinese naval ships would be stupid to get in more closer. In fact the speeding frigates halted when F5 jets soared in. See how much psychological component was being used?

In fact they sent fishermen to do the job. Who knows? Those fishermen were military personnel as well, pretending to be not from the Chinese military.

We could even have our local fisherman do the same thing to flush them out.

I may have sounded a bit too aggressive in saying that we should have bombed the structures right away. I have other reasons that i've considered though. I believe it is best for me to keep it to myself so as not to complicate this interaction further.

The point there is strategy. :exactly:

But i wont elaborate on what's mine because i know that it would only sound crazy if not laughable.

THE BIGGEST MISTAKE THERE IS INTELLIGENCE and SURVEILLANCE.

INADEQUATE MARITIME PATROL SORTIES or just enough ship patrols, could be it.

To sum it all up, ... IT'S BECAUSE OF OUR WEAK EXTERNAL DEFENSE. :exactly:

What's funny is that usually, the weapons that you have built for decades will only come in handy once.

When you dont have such weapons to count on when the need finally comes... you can only expect nothing but lose the battle.... for the first and last time...

... BECAUSE YOU WILL NEVER EVER GET THE CHANCE TO TAKE IT BACK.

That's the value of external defense.

The weapons you've stockpiled arent wearing out or even ...

... accumulating dust for nothing.
:exactly:
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" Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution "


" People don't care what we know until they know we care. "


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flipzi
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Viking
Jan 21 2005, 05:17 PM

from what i read no one contested the Chinese claim by blowing up the markers because PN didnt patrol the area for a couple of monts. This way the Chinese have gained some "de facto" rights, and even some legal claims.

So what can you do?

PATROL THE SPRATLEYS 25/7 365

for this you need OPVs, patrol ships and patrol aeroplanes. This the Brits learned a lesson in the Cod wars with Island (dispute over fishing righs in the EEZ)


Precisely !
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" Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution "


" People don't care what we know until they know we care. "


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Fmr TOPP Awardee 82'PNP
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Our Navy is not yet ready for any conflict I suppose, it still lagged behind as far as military hardware is concerned. You cannot win a war by bravery and guts alone. You need the tools to make your guts work.
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Neomancer
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Fmr TOPP Awardee 82'PNP
Feb 25 2005, 05:32 AM
Our Navy is not yet ready for any conflict I suppose, it still lagged behind as far as military hardware is concerned. You cannot win a war by bravery and guts alone. You need the tools to make your guts work.

Absolutely right, or else it will be the guts of Filipino sailors that will be fed upon by the sharks in the sea!
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flipzi
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:agree:

That's what the govt must start doing.

Give the AFP the capability to fulfill its job!
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" Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution "


" People don't care what we know until they know we care. "


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