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PAF trainer jet missing; S211 lost to Typhoon Lando?
Topic Started: Nov 26 2007, 04:31 PM (3,663 Views)
City Hunter
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I sure wish yun Google Earth could do real time imagery. That way magamit lahat ng resources sa paghahanap. Hindi kaya pwede pakiusapan ni PGMA ang China or US to use their spy satellites to check the area out? Spratlys naman yun kaya tiyak meron naka-assign to orbit such a potential hotspot.
Command is about authority, about appointment to a position. Effective leadership is different. It must be learned and practiced in order for it to rise to the level of art. You must love those you lead before you can be an effective leader. You can certainly command without that sense of commitment but you cannot lead without it; and without leadership, command is a hollow experience. .. a vacuum often filled with mistrust and ignorance.

Gen. Eric K. Shinseki
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flipzi
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PAF: Search for jet off Kalayaan won’t stop

Inquirer
Last updated 01:12am (Mla time) 12/03/2007


MANILA, Philippines -- Saying no plane or pilot was left unfound, the Philippine Air Force Sunday dispatched another search plane over the waters of the Kalayaan island group where a jet and its pilots disappeared last week.

“We will not stop the search. That’s how we do it. Whenever a plane or pilots get lost, we never stop until we find them,” said PAF spokesperson Lt. Col. Epifanio Panzo Jr.

A PAF Fokker arrived at Antonio Bautista Air Base in Puerto Princesa City Sunday to augment the planes and ships looking for the S-211 trainer jet that disappeared on Nov. 26 while flying in tandem with a similar plane and searching for a missing fishing boat, said Maj. Federico Ferrero Jr., base information chief.

In the two-seater were Capt. Gavino Mercado Jr. and Capt. Bonifacio Soriano III.

A United States maritime patrol plane also searched the Kalayaan waters but found no trace of the aircraft.

The S-211 is one of five in the PAF fleet. Tarra Quismundo

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadl...ticle_id=104459

Whether the Air Force rescues them successfully or not, the thing now is to PREVENT THE REPEAT OF THE INCIDENT.

If the weather gets that bad, then sorties should be cancelled. Unless, we get the newer aircrafts suitable for such weather.

There's a radar in Palawan. It was installed during the time of Marcos. Some say it's not accurate.

So aside from disallowing sorties for aircrafts not suitable for such weather, we should now modernize our radars.

For better monitoring of our air space and for MAKING RESCUES A LOT SAFER and for RESCUING THE HAPLESS RESCUERS A LOT EASIER AND FASTER.
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" Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution "


" People don't care what we know until they know we care. "


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spearhead
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cyklonmetal
Nov 29 2007, 07:30 PM
hindi malayong physiological factors ang cause ng crash. number of reasons could cause vertigo; inadequate rest, non compliance of 12 hour bottle to throttle rule, colds/urti etc.



it's not as easy as that, it's not just about experience or flying time in general it's more about just how much flying you have had in a specific time frame preceding the event. IIRC, S211 pilots were getting around 20-25 flying hours per quarter. barely enough to keep proficiency, of this, how many was dedicated to pure instrument flying? it's easy for an experienced pilot to drift when flying in soup, all it takes is momentary lapse in concentration. when going inside soup wingmen normally close in to maintain visual of the lead, if not possible he would break formation and rejoin once clear.



key word is help, in the end it is still the pilot who makes control inputs.

a possible scenario would be;
1. lead and wingman flying echelon, separation of maybe 1-2000 ft (for SAR??) at altitude of 6,000 ft.
2. weather closes in, wingman speeds up to close separation and maintain visual of lead.
3. wingman loses visual, cuts back throttle to avoid mid air, maneuvers ac as per preflight briefing in event of loss of contact with lead.
4. while maneuvering, inadvertently places aircraft inverted
5. pulls back to gain altitude, actually putting the ac in an unrecoverable dive.

or

4. while maneuvering, icing develops on wing leading edges
5. ac spins as a result of aerodynamic instability caused by wing icing.

yes, icing does happen in the philippines. it has happened before with F-8's and S-211's flying in the general vicinity of spratly's.

with either scenarios, 6,000 ft is barely enough room to initiate recovery. you have to remember that the very first instinct of a pilot in the event of an emergency is to recover the aircraft, not eject. if he has 15 seconds to decide eject, he will probably spend the first 12 seconds recovering the ac.

if the aircraft was inverted, flying at 350 kts pointing 45 deg down, rate of descent would be around 300 ft per second and would give him around 20 secs to recover assuming that he has broken cloud cover and see that he is earthbound. if the cloud ceiling was lower in that particular area, then he would have less time. while he could have radioed his position to lead he didn't, i'm betting he didn't have the luxury of time to read distance and bearing which would have given rescuers a more specific area. If he was spinning, it would have been impossible to get a readout.

Tnx for the input comrade. Its the most reasonable explanation we heard so far.

Since our S211 jets are small and aging, mechanical problem is the most logical theory that might have caused the plane to crash.

So far no words yet. Tsk these pilots dont really deserve to be flying this crappy planes. They deserve a better plane... :salute:
"Men of War must learn the art of numbers or he will not know how to array his troops." - Plato

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flipzi
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spearhead
Dec 4 2007, 12:47 PM
....... these pilots dont really deserve to be flying this crappy planes.  They deserve a better plane...  :salute:

With the questionable safety record of the S211.... i believe so.

Maybe, the plane has too many weaknesses which makes it unsafe to fly.
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" Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution "


" People don't care what we know until they know we care. "


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Frenzy
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They have not been found yet and are probably lost, I hope and pray that their sacrifice will not go to waste and that sooner our air force will have safer and better aircraft.

:salute:
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el_ramon
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my prayers to the MIA's, hope it's vertigo and not the a/c..the s211 had a bit of a checkered history with the paf.is it the newly refurbished/overhauled 211?
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spearhead
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Tsk that's what happens to our innocent pilots and even soldiers who are being victimized by a corrupted government for not providing them with superior and reliable planes and other military equipments.

Oh my Philippines...

Our Home and Native Land...

:headbang:
"Men of War must learn the art of numbers or he will not know how to array his troops." - Plato

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flipzi
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No sightings yet of missing jet, pilots - Air Force
12/05/2007 | 12:11 PM

The Philippine Air Force said Wednesday there have been no sightings of the pilots and the S-211 reconnaissance aircraft reported missing after a surveillance mission in the disputed Spratly Islands off Palawan last November 26.

In a phone interview, PAF spokesman Lt. Col. Epifanio Panzo belied earlier reports that the Philippine Coast Guard had already found the aircraft.

"There is no truth to that regarding the alleged founding or discovery...The search is still ongoing...still continuing," Panzo said.

As of posting time, Panzo said planes from the Air Force and vessels from the Coast Guard are still continuing with the search, concentrating near the 15 nautical miles northeast of Pagasa Island where the last contact with the missing plane was recorded.

Panzo said the US P3 Orion is due to conduct another sortie although the exact date has yet to be finalized.

"There is no positive sighting. I don’t know where the reporters got their information (about the plane's recovery). They (US) will perform another sortie...local fishermen are helping but as of this moment, there is no sighting yet," he said.

Panzo said the Air Force was hoping that the reports on the discovery of the wreckage were true "but the truth is we still don’t have positive sightings on the aircraft or the pilots...We are still positive, we are not losing hope that we will be able to see them (pilots) alive," he said. - GMANews.TV

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/71478/No-sight...ots---Air-Force
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" Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution "


" People don't care what we know until they know we care. "


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israeli
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Search for missing PAF pilots, jet enters 10th day
By Tarra Quismundo
Inquirer
Last updated 11:29pm (Mla time) 12/06/2007


MANILA, Philippines -- Air Force officials have yet to determine whether the sighting of “an object” in the waters off the Kalayaan Island Group could be a break in the search for its missing trainer jet.

Major Federico Ferrero Jr., information chief of the Philippine Air Force (PAF) base in Puerto Princesa, Palawan, said on Thursday that search and rescue workers spotted an orange object in the search area off Kalayaan during a sortie on Wednesday.

“They saw an object, a tangerine object. But we are not sure what it is, if it is in anyway a part [of the aircraft],” Ferrero told the Philippine Daily Inquirer, parent company of INQUIRER.net.

Search operations for the PAF’s missing S-211 jet and its pilots, Capt. Gavino Mercado Jr. and Capt. Bonifacio Soriano III, were on the 10th day on Thursday with “no significant” sightings, Ferrero said.

The jet mysteriously went off the radar in the morning of November 26, when it was dispatched from the PAF air base in Palawan as wingman to another S-211 plane to look for a missing fishing vessel and its passengers off KIG.

Asked what the orange object could be, he said: “It could be anything... because there are many fishing vessels around that area.”

It could not be ascertained whether the object was part of the jet, the body of which is painted gray, or the pilots' parachute, which was of a white-orange color combination. Had the plane crashed, pilots would have ejected from the cockpit and deployed parachutes for safe landing.

Philippine Navy planes that flew follow-up sorties to check the object failed to spot it again, said Ferrero.

“We have expanded the coverage of the search because the current may have swept them southwest. They could have drifted,” the official said.

Planes and ships of PAF, the Philippine Navy and the Philippine Coast Guard have been scouring the waters off KIG for the missing plane, one of 5 S-211s in the Air Force fleet.
"To secure peace is to prepare for war." - Carl Von Clausewitz
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edwin
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Wake up call. Wake up call.. Wake up Call.

We dont have sufficient aircraft to maintain our defense posture then we will suffer again another lost of flying asset.

PAF suffered the brunt of neglect by our Policy makers when it comes to modernization of our Defense.

Hope our Politician will wake up to the reality.
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It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and reality of tomorrow.
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