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| PAF trainer jet missing; S211 lost to Typhoon Lando? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 26 2007, 04:31 PM (3,664 Views) | |
| flipzi | Nov 29 2007, 08:08 PM Post #21 |
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Ended up inverted while trying to pull away from lead? That points to lack of proficiency (as a result of less flight time in training or so) It is indeed possible since if he was basing his flight attitude to what he sees instead of what the meters in his cockpit tell, at high speed, then it is possible that he indeed made the wrong amount of roll and plunged directly into the sea. His failure to contact the base supports the idea that he just didnt have the chance anymore since the accidental dive was too short for him to react long enough. Nonetheless, if we had effective radar coverage then we would know where he plunged. Also, that's just my view as a secondary to cyclonmetal's. The lack of proficiency was a failure of the PAF to get these pilots proper time to train and familiarize with the plane long enough. Of course, there's the discipline or fatigue angle.
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![]() " Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution " " People don't care what we know until they know we care. " getflipzi@yahoo.com | |
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| adroth | Nov 30 2007, 01:48 AM Post #22 |
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Have you spoken to pilots about vertigo? Do you know just how far apart the pilot's perceptions are from the actual situation of the aircraft when vertigo hits? I suspect cyclonmetal can explain.
Have you checked how far away Pag-asa really is from Palawan? Are you familiar with horizon distance limitations of conventional air search radars? (very few countries can afford OTH radars, btw) |
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| cyklonmetal | Nov 30 2007, 05:22 AM Post #23 |
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symptoms of vertigo are sensations of spinning or swaying while stationary. the fact that you are in a small aircraft getting kicked around by inclement weather only makes this worse. once vertigo sets in it takes just a few more seconds for the readouts you get from the instruments to set in. your eyes see it but it doesnt register immediately in your brain. flight surgeons explain this with something like the balance mechanisms in the individuals inner ear overriding the brain. thus, when you have vertigo in zero vis, you start a left bank, your instruments indicate you are close to 90 left bank, but the balance mechanism in your inner ear tells you that you are banking right(vertigo) so your brain rejects what it sees and you push it just a little more to the left until your vertigo addled brain tells you it's just right (with high roll rates it's easy to get inverted). as per preflight(assuming) you put the ac in what you, in your vertigo altered state, to a climb (remember, in soup, no visual references). your actual state is that you are now descending inverted, cloud cover clears after a 1-2000 ft, losing a thousand feet every three to four secs. ac recovery depends how fast you recover from vertigo. or how well you have mastered instrument flying which would have kept you out of this mess in the first place. only real solution to avoid this is to keep em flying. im not too sure it was shot at, it does not achieve any tactical, strategic or political objective for any of the claimants in the first place. it will only serve to destabilize regional politics, with no real gains in sight. for the time being at least. instrument failure, always possible. |
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| cyklonmetal | Nov 30 2007, 05:45 AM Post #24 |
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I remember a story a pilot told me, flying low over the spratlys. they saw a small flash and assumed they had been fired at. turns out it was a flare fired from one of the islands occupied by the other claimants. as for live missiles, havent heard that one. what is curious is that last contact was made at 10am, and lead returned to base around 1245. last i knew spratly's was around 200 miles or so west of palawan. at 300kts, he should have been back in around an hour after losing contact with his wingman. was there a search attempt on his part? was that part of preflight? too much we dont know at this point. |
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| valiant | Nov 30 2007, 10:20 AM Post #25 |
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tora2x said something about flight data recorders in his post above - do our military aircraft carry flight data recorders(blackboxes?) cause I've read an article before that military airplanes do not have blackboxes. |
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| flipzi | Nov 30 2007, 12:15 PM Post #26 |
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cyklonmetal, Nice input on the physiological aspect, which might have caused the problem. Then again, if we have effective radar coverrage, we could have at least known the last location before it went poof. At 6 thousand feet or lower until 300 feet, the radar could have registered the last contact. We can only depend on thsi one though, as a show of respect to the trained pilots.
Ours is just a way to find solutions so we can PREVENT THE REPEAT OF THE INCIDENT. Pwede rin kinuha ng alien. ![]() Then, again, we dont have the capability to effectively monitor our skies. ![]() I wonder when the enemy plane tries to do something daring? |
![]() " Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution " " People don't care what we know until they know we care. " getflipzi@yahoo.com | |
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| flipzi | Dec 2 2007, 01:00 PM Post #27 |
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Alrigth, there we have the possible crash scenario. The rescuers cant find them yet. So what now? P3 Orion can effectlively scan anything that's on the surface of the water but not below. Unless, it can launch a high-tech sonar bouy that can do a seabed topography scaling. I suggest this; 2 steps to follow. 1) Narrow the possible coverage of the area that must be scanned. 2) Scan the areas with available mapping techonolgy used by oceanographers s and by visual observation. The PAF must ask the help of NAMRIA and MAPUA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY. Why NAMRIA? NAMRIA has a vessel fitted with an equipment (probably sonar-based) that can build an image of the seabed. The idea is to to scan the seabed and check for shapes similar to the frame of the aircraft. The thing is, if the plane is there the scanning output will include something that resembles a cross or a shape unusual for the typical seabed. Why MAPUA? They have developed robot submersibles equipped with cameras. The searchers can use this to scan the seabed. The problem is in narrowing the search area. I suggest getting the reference from the first instance the planes encountered zero visibility. The civilians and soldiers guarding the surrounding islets noticed nothing. So, probably, the plane went down around 50 miles (based on how human eyes can clearly detect disturbances in the horizon, like a plane going down) off the nearest islet or the coast of the main island. Even if the clouds were too low at that time, the people there could have heard something if the planes are close enough. But since noone noticed anything, then probably it's really 50 miles off or more. Then we can ask the pilot of the surviving plane at what altitude they were when they they encountered zero visibility. Then assume that the wingman made the wrong roll and dived below, compute the possible areas where it took the plunge based on that altitude. After that, used NAMRIA's mapping equipment to get a visual representation of the topography below on one side of the search area. Then use MAPUA's robots to scan the seabed on the opposite side. By the way, the Navy Islanders can do a fast visual sweep by flying low enough to scan the waters. IF THE PLANE SUNK AT THE LEVEL OF 25 FEET OR SO IT MAY STILL BE VISIBLE FROM ABOVE. The sweeping must be done at times when sunlight can penetrate that depth to give the searchers a clearer view of what's below the surface. One concern though, the techonology was successful in finding large vessels. I do not know if finding a small plane will be as successful. In that line, i believe the MAPUA's robots may give us a better chance. Nonetheless, the topography scaling may still work. So, what's the loss if we use both anyway? At least we would know the capabilities of the two technologies. |
![]() " Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution " " People don't care what we know until they know we care. " getflipzi@yahoo.com | |
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| City Hunter | Dec 2 2007, 01:43 PM Post #28 |
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Wow, ilang araw na silang nawawala but no news about them being found yet. Sana buhay pa sila. |
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Command is about authority, about appointment to a position. Effective leadership is different. It must be learned and practiced in order for it to rise to the level of art. You must love those you lead before you can be an effective leader. You can certainly command without that sense of commitment but you cannot lead without it; and without leadership, command is a hollow experience. .. a vacuum often filled with mistrust and ignorance. Gen. Eric K. Shinseki | |
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| flipzi | Dec 2 2007, 05:01 PM Post #29 |
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if the pilots were able to bail out then they could be floating somewhere. Pilot's suit has floating device unless im wrong. SO, THE SEARCHERS SHOULD KEEP ON SWEEPING. Problem is, reef sharks are common. High waves are a concern which might have drowned the pilots. I dont wanna say we lost hope now. Just keep on sweeping the surface. If they arent there, then they're below. For the meantime, keep on sweeping. |
![]() " Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution " " People don't care what we know until they know we care. " getflipzi@yahoo.com | |
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| el_ramon | Dec 3 2007, 09:59 AM Post #30 |
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hindi pa ba sila nahanap? |
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