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| Hueys to be phased out! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 28 2007, 11:50 AM (4,321 Views) | |
| jvelarde | Jun 20 2007, 05:00 PM Post #31 |
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Spearhead, I agree 100% with Adroth that we should upgrade around 40 ~ 50 UH-1H airframes into Huey II standard. Just because the PAF has announced that it will replace the Huey does not mean it will become reality in a few years. Just take a look at how long the PAF really acquires new weapons platforms. As early as the 1970's and perhaps in the 60's, the PAF wanted the OV-10 Bronco as a COIN aircraft. It was only in the 1990's that if finally acquired several 2nd-hand Broncos from the US. Likewise, the Huey II is not an obsolete platform. Otherwise, why would the US Army still take deliveries for it till 2009? Other Huey operators are either upgrading or have upgraded into the Huey II configuration. At $ 2 million/conversion kit, upgrading 50 Hueys will "only" cost $ 100 million (or P 4.5 billion). Congress has promised a total of P 60 billion for FY 2006 to 2012. Last time I checked, the actual money released has "only" been a little over P 6 billion including P 5 billion for FY 2007. This means that for the next 5 years (FY 2008-2012), Congress would have to give the AFP almost P 10 billion a year to keep its promise of P 60 billion. Would the GRP be able to afford this at a time when the price of oil in the world market is near historical highs? I don't think so! If the PAF will go for 50 new choppers at $ 10 million each, this would easily mean $ 500 million. Assuming an average exchange rate of P 50: $ 1 between now and 2012, this is almost half of the P 60 billion ($ 1.2 billion) that the GRP plans to spend for the AFP Modernization for FY 2006 to 2012. For $ 500 million, you can: 1) Upgrade our existing 50 Hueys to Huey II standard and buy a reasonable amount of spares to keep them flying for several years. At $ 2 million/upgrade kit plus $ 1 million for parts per chopper, the total amount for 50 Hueys will be $ 150 million. 2) Buy 25 night-capable MG-520 Defenders. I don't have the exact prices but assuming a price of $ 4 million/each (aircraft and parts), this is another $ 100 million. 3) Upgrade our existing 16 OV-10 to Super Bronco standard. At an assumed $ 2 million per upgrade, this is $ 32 million. 4) Buy another 20 OV-10 airframes and also upgrading them to Super Bronco standard. At around $ 3 million per airframe (including upgrade), this will easily cost $ 60 million or even more. The total cost for items 3 and 4 will be around $ 100 million. 5) I read some time back that bringing our entire fleet of C-130's into flying condition will cost $ 100 million. Kung kahit kalahati lang ang ibalik natin sa ere, total cost will be at least $ 50 million. If you are keeping score, items 1 to 5 will now total $ 400 million. 6) Now, the "extra" $ 100 million is just enough to buy the six attack helicopters the PAF has promised for this year. So, for $ 500 million, would you rather have items 1 to 6 or 50 new utility helicopters? |
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| spearhead | Jun 20 2007, 08:27 PM Post #32 |
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DoctorNO, Your Neutral Observer.
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manong adroth, di man ako kasing galing mo sa inglesan, pero di ako taangaa. wala kang kwentang kausapin kaya maghanap ka nalang ng mga taangaa at mga bata dyan na mas mauuto mo.
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"Men of War must learn the art of numbers or he will not know how to array his troops." - Plato![]() ![]() | |
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| spearhead | Jun 20 2007, 09:13 PM Post #33 |
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DoctorNO, Your Neutral Observer.
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jvelarde, hello! i never disagree with his (adroth) point and even to ur point, i only didn't like his tone. although i still owe him an apology for calling his statement as 'retarded'... its just that ur buddy was being negative and sarcastic. he seem to be a well educated person though, but w/ a very negative personality. sya yung tipong konting kontra mo lang sa sinasabi nya eh aakusahan ka na nya ng mga kabulukang isipan. he was even accusing me of something i never said. but hey i rather see some blackhawks, and those russian helos in our military inventory than those of aging hueys. its bcuz they may be bigger, but can also be armed to the teeth and are capable of carrying more troops than adroth's hueys. you know, you and adroth actually have a practical and decent ideas. i understand too that u guys were just being realistic, its just too bad that he started to be arrogant so i sent ur buddy on my ignore list, and i hope he's enjoying his stay there... but why stay with hueys beyond 2013 if our government THINKS they can afford to buy the new ones? isn't quality is more important than the quantity? and to tell u the truth, i never like those type of people who think the same way. no wonder kung bakit ang bagal ng pagakyat ng bansa natin, marami kasing lokoloko dyan sa pinas at hindi umaasenso, ang bababa kasi ng mga pangarap sa buhay, masyadong SIMPLE. dapat gayahin natin ang mga ibang dayuhan na progreso, aggressive, moderno ang pagiisip, working hard, resourceful, at mataas ang mga pangarap sa buhay. beside, wala namang masama sa nangangarap ng sobra, mas maigi nayun kesa sa wala. anyway, all of us have our own views, and we are all entitled to our own opinion. the only thing that break this rule when someone is twisting it. also, i believe that ive been open minded about your ideas and im just being optimistic about this idea granting that IF our economy goes up consistently. well kaya ganito nalang ang sabihin natin, i will agree with u IF our economy never recovers, and IF our future leaders will remain selfish, unpatriotic, and corrupted. for the meantime, i would stay optimistic. get me? therefore hear this, IF our government think that they can afford to buy new ones come the year 2013, then why not? go read all my previous posts again and u will see how consistent i am. pero who knows nga naman kung ano ang magiging status ng ekonomiya at bansa natin sa taong iyon, di ba? syempre kung tayo maghihirap, magandang i-keep na ngalang ang ating mga lumang kagamitang pang military, and why not? wala naman tayong imminent hostile neighbors aside sa mga terorista, right? one more thing i would like to say, we all should think positively, advance, and be ambitious. its better to have a goal than having an old fashion way of thinking like ur buddy. because we can always go back to our plan B if plan A didn't work, agree? and i consider ur ideas as our PLAN B. i hope u get my point this time. BTW, an interesting site about helos: http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Ro...at_War/HE14.htm Check this link and find out what type of helos they were talking about, and compare it to our hueys: http://www.geocities.com/tacticalstudiesgr...iaseckivtdp.htm "Not only are our helicopters too hard to maintain and literally grounded except for dire emergencies in Iraq, they fly too slow and too loud to survive ..." :thumb: |
"Men of War must learn the art of numbers or he will not know how to array his troops." - Plato![]() ![]() | |
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| adroth | Jun 21 2007, 12:22 AM Post #34 |
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Tit for tat spearhead. You drew first blood. You were dismissive . . . that drew an agressive, but purely fact-based response. Which is really more than I can say for your rebuttal. If you feel that anyone who exposes a lack of research on your part is arrogant . . . then that is really your problem . . . not mine.
For so long as Filipinos remain unable to discuss issues without resorting to the "mayabang" card, the country will never move forward. "Modern thinkers" as you call them understand that you have approach issues objectively -- regardless of whether or not you like the messenger. BTW "modern thinking" doesn't always mean always using what's new. Its about making smart choices. Its about being able to gather facts, and making decisions based on those facts -- and not about whimsical, illogical, choices based on preconcieved notions. Automatically assuming that something old is bad is actually an example of non-modern thinking. === ~~~ === Back to topic. |
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Avatar c/o: http://www.proudlypinoy.org/ Defense of the Republic of the Philippines (DefensePH) | |
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| adroth | Jun 21 2007, 12:23 AM Post #35 |
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This is a VERY valid question . . . regardless of the condition of the Philippine economy. |
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Avatar c/o: http://www.proudlypinoy.org/ Defense of the Republic of the Philippines (DefensePH) | |
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| HydronPrime | Jun 21 2007, 10:36 AM Post #36 |
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hmmm ... since we don't [maybe some people here are?] have a hand in the decision making process, what are we trying to achieve by making these suggestions and debates? anyway .. I like the huey ^_^v. |
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| jvelarde | Jun 23 2007, 08:08 PM Post #37 |
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Spearhead, To answer some of your questions:
Thinking you can afford new ones and if you can really afford new ones are two very different things. We have all heard these announcements before. Until and only until the new hardware is there should we believe our government. Unless you want the Philippines to turn into a North Korea, our military expenditure will only rise with our economic growth and the GRP's ability to collect taxes. No economic growth, no military modernization.
I agree with you. A properly upgraded and well-maintened Huey II is a quality helicopter. That is why the US Army, the best-equipped Army in the world, is still receiving upgraded Huey II's till 2009. I don't like the idea of buying Chinese-made choppers kahit mura due to the generally poor quality of military equipment from the PROC.
I agree with your statement than maraming loko-loko sa Pinas. Ang hindi pag-aasenso sa bansa natin has a lot (but not all) to do with the fact that we were ruled by a corrupt, vindictive and heartless magnanakaw named Ferdinand Marcos with a brainless kleptomaniac of a wife. Plus, the conjugal dictatorship had more than its share of blood-sucking cronies which nearly bled the country to death from 1966 to 1986.
If you are referring to the Huey II upgrades as SIMPLE, I have to respectfully disagree with you. The ongoing (?) Huey II upgrades are one of the most complex programs the PAF has had since its inception.
I'm glad you are optimistic about the modernization program and, by extension, our economic growth in general. I too wish we will have steady economic growth for decades to come. However, wishes and reality are two very different things. One thing our country has never had since the immediate post-war years is consistently high economic growth. We have had years when we had double-digit growth and there have been years the growth has been 0% to only 4%. During the waning days of the Marcos kleptocracy, our economic growth was in the negative numbers while our neighbors were posting double-digit economic growth. Our economy shrank from 1983 to 1985 while Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia boomed. It didn't help that Gringo Honasan and his coup-pals launched coup attempts in 1987 and in 1989. I personally know a European company who was just about to put up a factory here but the Dec 1989 putsch not only halted the project but drove it to Thailand. To give you some figures, Thailand in the 1990's had foreign investments that averaged $ 5 billion a year. The Philippines in the same period probably averaged only $ 1 billion a year. The late Max Soliven once wrote in a column that he once met the Japanese ambassador to Thailand. The latter complained that he was on the road all the time since a new Japanese company opened a factory in Thailand every week!
I can't agree more with you. As long as we have corrupt leaders running this country, hindi tayo aasenso. Still, I still try to remain optimistic though.
Dunno how old you are, Spearhead, but in the 1990's (when the exchange rate was still around P 25/$ 1), the AFP modernization bill was first proposed. The GRP was planning to spend a cool P 50 billion ($ 2 billion) over the course of several years to modernize the AFP. Then, the Asian economic crisis of 1997 hit. The exchange rate plunged from P 26 to P 43 to the US dollar in a few months. The modernization program was put on-hold for a decade. It was only last year that the government was able to allocate a rather "modest" sum of more than P 1 billion for the AFP's modernization. As you see, Spearhead, since the 1960's, history has not been so kind to the AFP's efforts to modernize.
2013 is just 5-1/2 years away. To give you a perspective, 5-1/2 years ago was the holiday season of 2001, just after 9/11. Will we have 50 ~ 60 brand-new utility helicopters and a few dozen attack choppers by then? Or will we be having the same discussion we are having right now?
Spearhead, I know as much about Adroth as you. I don't know both of you from Adam. I don't think upgrading our Hueys is an old-fashioned way of thinking. In fact, it is plan B! Plan A, of coure, is to get new all-purpose utility helicopters which, at present, is nothing more than a plan. What is your plan B, by the way?
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| page mcney | Jun 23 2007, 11:01 PM Post #38 |
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ah, comrades, i think TAMA NA ANG PAG-DEBATE NINYO, PARANG NAGAASARAN NA LANG KAYO E... i think i would suggest that we ask our other comrades/members of this forum on TO STILL USE THE HUEY UP TO 2013 AND/OR UPGRADE IT TO THE II STANDARD.. what do you think? para tigil na ang asaran and eventual awayan... WILL YOU AGREE WITH ME? |
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| spearhead | Jun 25 2007, 01:36 AM Post #39 |
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DoctorNO, Your Neutral Observer.
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whoever u are, i agree with u. :thumb: |
"Men of War must learn the art of numbers or he will not know how to array his troops." - Plato![]() ![]() | |
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| spearhead | Jun 25 2007, 02:05 AM Post #40 |
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DoctorNO, Your Neutral Observer.
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comrade, i believe i stated my plan B, and that was ur idea of staying with the hueys beyond 2013, if plan A didn't work ofcourse. but we are not yet in plan B. 2013 is still about 5 years more to come. the plan A i was talking about was the government's plan to purchase new stuff, and plan B is to keep the hueys IF we still have a screwed up government come 2013. meanwhile its really a good idea to upgrade our hueys while waiting for the plan A to work out. BTW, did u check the link i posted about the techinical flaws of some of the helicopters? your given figures are true but it doesn't prove that it was the sole REASON why we failed to get new stuff in the past. come to think of it. however, you should have known that the reason why we couldn't buy these new military stuff is always been because of extreme corruption going on. therefore, i still believe that our government can really AFFORD to buy new stuff come 2013, but thats only IF how much they are willing to do so and how HONEST our future leaders they will be. and u already stated u agree with me there. u know it has been proven in the past that because of corruptions we failed to purchase new weapons for our armed forces. and this corruption is still ongoing. kaya kung paguusapan lang natin ang pera, meron ang gobyerno. kaya we cannot just insist na wala silang pera, meron tayo kaya lang binubulsa kasi. pork barrel palang eh magkano na linalagay nila doon? grabe. cmon u should know better. its the combination of ineffective governance and corruptions thats really holding us back to see new planes or choppers! i know the government had money, and they do have enough money to buy these, pero ang karamihan ay hinahalay na, kinakatay na, at binubulsa na. thats why im counting to their given words that they are planning to phaseout the hueys and replaced them with something new. and i support them, and i pray that it will come true. plan A is always be the better one. the meaning of that announcement for me is a very positive one, that means they have goals, and this goal can help them stay away from corruptions, and that also means they are trying their best to be honest in handling our money. agree? |
"Men of War must learn the art of numbers or he will not know how to array his troops." - Plato![]() ![]() | |
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