Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Philippines Defense Forces Forum. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Hueys to be phased out!
Topic Started: May 28 2007, 11:50 AM (4,322 Views)
edwin
Member
[ *  *  * ]
Time for PAF to Modernize and fit themselves on what is required in the future of their Mission parameter to safeguard and defend the country.

Let us hope that the first batch has been bought already according to what they say:
Quote:
 
An evaluation of potential aircraft – which will also be equipped for search and rescue, firefighting and medical evacuation duties – should be launched later this year, with a first batch of aircraft to be bought in 2007 for delivery in 2008-9. The aircraft will initially supplement the air force’s fleet of Bell UH-1H Hueys, which will expand from 43 to around 80 aircraft over the next year through the addition of ex-US Army airframes.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/...er+contest.html


Unless we dont have enough continous source of cash and the goverment cannot maintain the standard of a progressive economic status in the international community, we cannot expect the PAF to acquire Modern Asset that is needed for their various operation in the country.

cheers :armycheers:
Posted Image
It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and reality of tomorrow.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
spearhead
Member Avatar
DoctorNO, Your Neutral Observer.
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
adroth
May 31 2007, 06:30 AM
Why would it be retarded?

The USAF is taking deliveries of Huey IIs till 2009. They will undoubtedly still be in service by 2013 -- when your six-year time frame ends. Supplies for this cost-effective type will be available for years.

So long as it works well -- which is what the Huey II conversion will ensure; its airframe is still viable; and is cost effective (you can operate 4 hueys II with the operational cost of a UH-60), the "retarded" thing would be to throw it away merely because its not new.

Old does not automatically mean obsolete, or "must be replaced".


so what if the americans will still be using them? whats the big deal? ehem.

adroth, u maybe right on ur views but do u honestly like to see ur own country, the philippines, and its main military choppers to be using the same choppers, the hueys I or II or III & whatever, for the rest of ur life?

not me.

yes, they maybe useful and seem to be cheaper but very unrealistic. it doesnt fit in to our military anymore dude! mas mabuti pang mga pulis nalang ang gumamit nun o mga local government's SAR unit nalang kesa itapon mo silang pabalik sa ating mga nakakaawang sundalo! di kaba naawa sa kanila? karamihan na nga sa kanila ay biktima ng mga kurap na heneral! tsk tsk tsk...

u say, "so long as it works"? man, i dont know what kind of mentality do u have, and what drives u to keep the hueys in our inventory to be used as our main delivery aircraft. hehehe... u really love them aren't yah?

wake up dude! our soldiers dont deserve these crappy choppers! palitan mo man ang buntot ng mga hueys, o sampuin man ang kanilang mga propelers eh ganun parin sila! so no more retarded statement! thats my opinion, i really think its retarded to keep the hueys, period.

man, we've been fighting these lunatics for decades, and been using the same type of choppers for decades, but haven't u noticed anything? good.

we are hardly winning the war. so its worthy to try another weapon to crash these rebels.

anyway, it (hueys) maybe too americanized but i hate them, and im sure many of us here, specially our pilots and foot soldiers will disagree with u.

what our soldiers need are the new ones, different design, tougher, stealthier, and much modern aircrafts or much bigger and more capable than our scrappy hueys I or II. 2013 and beyond, we really should be using a much effective weapons.

well, agree? :snipemo:
"Men of War must learn the art of numbers or he will not know how to array his troops." - Plato

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
spearhead
Member Avatar
DoctorNO, Your Neutral Observer.
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
edwin
May 31 2007, 04:34 PM
Quote by Adroth Posted on May 31 2007, 06:30 AM


That is the beating factor of HUEY ll among other combat helicopter..It's the COST.

I have such doubt that after SIX YEARS, our PAF still dont have the New type of helicopter they want and stay on those cost effective Upgrade program which will save their budget.

But still My thought is always for PAF to acquire a suitable and effective Modern Air Asset/Equipment due to the reality that it is what they lack the most.

Cheers :armycheers:

lets say it again, hope for the best, expect for the worst. cross the fingers! :armycheers:
"Men of War must learn the art of numbers or he will not know how to array his troops." - Plato

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
spearhead
Member Avatar
DoctorNO, Your Neutral Observer.
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
edwin
May 31 2007, 04:57 PM
Time for PAF to Modernize and fit themselves on what is required in the future of their Mission parameter to safeguard and defend the country.

Let us hope that the first batch has been bought already according to what they say:
Quote:
 
An evaluation of potential aircraft – which will also be equipped for search and rescue, firefighting and medical evacuation duties – should be launched later this year, with a first batch of aircraft to be bought in 2007 for delivery in 2008-9. The aircraft will initially supplement the air force’s fleet of Bell UH-1H Hueys, which will expand from 43 to around 80 aircraft over the next year through the addition of ex-US Army airframes.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/...er+contest.html


Unless we dont have enough continous source of cash and the goverment cannot maintain the standard of a progressive economic status in the international community, we cannot expect the PAF to acquire Modern Asset that is needed for their various operation in the country.

cheers :armycheers:

and i agree.

it seems like they were doing the right thing for now, buying more hueys that meant to be used for SAR and firefighting missions. its good as long as we dont use them for main military operations, well yeah not unless masira nanaman ang diskarte ng ekonomiya natin o makurap nanaman sila. oh well. :armycool:
"Men of War must learn the art of numbers or he will not know how to array his troops." - Plato

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tora^2
Member Avatar
Member
[ *  *  * ]
The reason why PAF fast-tracked the procurement of brand new Huey replacements is that it helps reduce the risk of accidents caused mechanical failures and penalties imposed on previously-owned helicopters.

As for my choice, I would opt for small, yet fast and nimble utility helos with which to replace our fleet of Vietnam war-era Hueys. A bigger helos like NH90s or Mil17 Hips may carry more troops or cargo. However, they lack the agility to better evade ground fire especially ManPADSs (JI ASG may have stocks of SA7s and SA14s) and even RPGs (which the MILF has and you can down helos with if you hit the tail rotor). Furthermore, a smaller helo can land and take off on smaller open areas like jungle clearings or even rooftops.

This makes me curious, are Agusta Westland Lynxes still in production?
Posted Image



JOIN UP!
POWER UP!
DO MORE MORE WITH LESS!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
adroth
Member
[ *  *  * ]
spearhead
May 31 2007, 05:21 PM
so what if the americans will still be using them? whats the big deal? ehem.


If you don't want to leverage another country's efficiency calculations and make the most of the AFP's budget -- then go ahead ignore it.

Quote:
 
adroth, u maybe right on ur views but do u honestly like to see ur own country, the philippines, and its main military choppers to be using the same choppers, the hueys I or II or III & whatever, for the rest of ur life?


Remember who the choppers are for.

Do you really think the soldiers on the ground really care what helicopter they ride into battle in?

What's important for them is that the helicopters are available in sufficient quantity and reliable -- then that's fine by them.

Quote:
 
yes, they maybe useful and seem to be cheaper but very unrealistic.  it doesnt fit in to our military anymore dude!


Explain.

All I hear from you is "old is bad". Which is a fallacious statement really.

Lets hear some real arguments.

Quote:
 
we are hardly winning the war.  so its worthy to try another weapon to crash these rebels.


Umm . . . we're not winning . . . because of the Huey?

The fact that the civilian government can't get its act together and provide basic services doesn't have anything to do with it eh?

Quote:
 
anyway, it (hueys) maybe too americanized but i hate them, and im sure many of us here, specially our pilots and foot soldiers will disagree with u.


I agree that many posters here disagree with me.

But the soldiers, airmen, and pilots who know the facts about these birds -- the people who really count -- don't share your views.

Quote:
 
what our soldiers need are the new ones, different design, tougher, stealthier, and much modern aircrafts or much bigger and more capable than our scrappy hueys I or II. 


Ah . . . herein lies the falacy of your thinking. Bigger is not necessarily better young man -- especially when it comes to helicopters.

Read the facts from the soldiers themselves, as well as research by others on the advantages of light helicopters versus medium helicopters like the BlackHawk.

http://timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=7492.0

The USMC thought the way you did . . . one can say that they were forced by circumstance to get Sea Knights and Stallions because of the nature of ship-to-shore operations.

But they paid a heavy price for it when they started fighting in the tropics.

Quote:
 
2013 and beyond, we really should be using a much effective weapons.


We definitely need effective weapons . . . and more of them.

You can keep 4 Huey IIs in the air for the price of 1 UH-60.
Avatar c/o: http://www.proudlypinoy.org/

Defense of the Republic of the Philippines (DefensePH)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
page mcney
Member
[ *  *  * ]
adroth
Jun 1 2007, 10:43 PM

If you don't want to leverage another country's efficiency calculations and make the most of the AFP's budget -- then go ahead ignore it.



Remember who the choppers are for.

Do you really think the soldiers on the ground really care what helicopter they ride into battle in?

What's important for them is that the helicopters are available in sufficient quantity and reliable -- then that's fine by them.



Explain.

All I hear from you is "old is bad". Which is a fallacious statement really.

Lets hear some real arguments.



Umm . . . we're not winning . . . because of the Huey?

The fact that the civilian government can't get its act together and provide basic services doesn't have anything to do with it eh?



I agree that many posters here disagree with me.

But the soldiers, airmen, and pilots who know the facts about these birds -- the people who really count -- don't share your views.



Ah . . . herein lies the falacy of your thinking. Bigger is not necessarily better young man -- especially when it comes to helicopters.

Read the facts from the soldiers themselves, as well as research by others on the advantages of light helicopters versus medium helicopters like the BlackHawk.

http://timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=7492.0

The USMC thought the way you did . . . one can say that they were forced by circumstance to get Sea Knights and Stallions because of the nature of ship-to-shore operations.

But they paid a heavy price for it when they started fighting in the tropics.



We definitely need effective weapons . . . and more of them.

You can keep 4 Huey IIs in the air for the price of 1 UH-60.

WELL, I BELIEVE IN YOU COMRADE ARDOTH, COUNT ME IN IN YOUR STATEMENT...

...SPECIALLY FROM YOUR LAST STATEMENT "You can keep 4 Huey IIs in the air for the price of 1 UH-60. "... IF ECONOMICS DICTATES (AS IS RIGHT NOW!), IT IS BETTER TO HAVE 4 HUEYS THAN 1 BLACKHAWK! THE TROOPS ON THE BATTELFIELD WOULD WON'T MIND BECAUSE WHAT THEY NEED IS MORE AIR MOBILITY... JUST TALK TO ALL SOLDIERS FIGHTING THE WAR ON OUR INSURGENCY PROBLEM AND THEY WILL TELL YOU THAT WHAT THEY NEED IS MORE HELOS (LALO NA SA DUST-OFF/MEDIVAC OPERATION).

MY 2 CENT WORTH OF COMMENT...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
spearhead
Member Avatar
DoctorNO, Your Neutral Observer.
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
With all respect, adroth, its not really worthy to debate this small thing, u know. Besides you also seem to have lost ur way from our simple argument whether to keep or not to keep the Hueys after 2013. Its ok, i appreciate ur explanation, well atleast u said it well. :D

Okey para wala nang away at para ma-satisfy na si mang adroth, and to make it short, ganito nalang sabihin natin:

Sa madaling salita, si adroth gusto paring gamitin ang mga Hueys beyond 2013 as our AFP's main troop delivery helo as much as possible to save some money, and as long as they all work. Period.

While the government like to phase them out by 2013. No announcement yet about their next plan what to do with the Hueys aside from assigning some of them to their own SAR unit.

While me thinks otherwise and totally agree with the government. And as i was suggesting before, after 2013, its either we can try to offer those Hueys to our local government for SAR use like the PNP & PNP-SAF, we can also sell them to other 3rd world countries like some African nations.

The only reason why im only saying this thing and why im keeping myself optimistic, b'cuz i know that our government can really buy some new & much modern or sophisticated helicopters as long as they keep themselves away from graft & corruptions, with the help of their political will.

BTW, i actually like to answer some of ur interesting replies even though wala na dapat sila sa discussion natin.

Peace out man! :armycheers:
"Men of War must learn the art of numbers or he will not know how to array his troops." - Plato

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
spearhead
Member Avatar
DoctorNO, Your Neutral Observer.
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
adroth
Jun 1 2007, 10:43 PM



adroth
 

Do you really think the soldiers on the ground really care what helicopter they ride into battle in?


ofcourse they do.

Quote:
 

What's important for them is that the helicopters are available in sufficient quantity and reliable -- then that's fine by them. 


i dont think the hueys are really reliable, they are indeed lightly-armed and too noisy.

Quote:
 

All I hear from you is "old is bad". Which is a fallacious statement really.

Lets hear some real arguments.


sure.

Quote:
 

Umm . . . we're not winning . . . because of the Huey?


for decades, our enemies have learned our tactics and learned how to avoid those NOISY & slow hueys.

they also have learned a lesson from our neighboring vietnamese, oh yeah lots of it. the vietnamese have learned how to get rid of the american choppers thats why the US lost their initiative in vietnam. it was indeed a disastrous military operation, and yet one of the worst military operation in american history.

now u wanted us to repeat that mistake done by the americans?

Quote:
 

The fact that the civilian government can't get its act together and provide basic services doesn't have anything to do with it eh?


this is unbelievable. u r ignoring the effects of a corrupted civilian government.

hey im not anti-gloria, but we all know there are still corrupted officials including those who r inside the military.

Quote:
 

But the soldiers, airmen, and pilots who know the facts about these birds -- the people who really count -- don't share your views.


ah we'll see.

Quote:
 

Ah . . . herein lies the falacy of your thinking. Bigger is not necessarily better young man -- especially when it comes to helicopters.


while i dont really blame u here why u came up with these accusations, sa dami ba namang nakakadebate mo dito eh.

ok, in a matter of fact, i share ur views when it comes to the size of a new helicopter we should be getting. i never like those huge russian helos, neither the blackhawks. well indeed, they all been proved to be combat-ineffective against insurgents. lalo na pa kaya yung mas malalaking helos.

what i like is something stealthier, faster, and maybe about the same size of the hueys or smaller but can carry with the same amount of troops or more. i dont know how possible is it but thats what i want for our military.

im telling u, if this aircraft that i wanted have to be vtol capable and fly like a harrier jet but can carry troops, then so be it.

Quote:
 

The USMC thought the way you did . . . one can say that they were forced by circumstance to get Sea Knights and Stallions because of the nature of ship-to-shore operations.

But they paid a heavy price for it when they started fighting in the tropics.

We definitely need effective weapons . . . and more of them.

You can keep 4 Huey IIs in the air for the price of 1 UH-60.


i agree. the americans have learned a hard lesson in vietnam, and now iraq.

but i dont think that the hueys are the answer, modified or not modified. beside the hueys can never be stealthier again, whatever they do, it will still be noisy. most of all, i dont want our government to keep the hueys beyond 2013, but assigning them to SAR is okey.

therefore, if we have to build our own helicopters according to our needs then so be it. if we have to buy new ones aside from hueys, blackhawks, stallions, or those large russian helos, then so be it.
"Men of War must learn the art of numbers or he will not know how to array his troops." - Plato

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
adroth
Member
[ *  *  * ]
spearhead
Jun 12 2007, 05:32 AM
Quote:
 

What's important for them is that the helicopters are available in sufficient quantity and reliable -- then that's fine by them. 


i dont think the hueys are really reliable, they are indeed lightly-armed and too noisy.


People who really understand how aircraft work, and have been exposed to the maintenance system say otherwise.

Between news reports and their expert advice . . . I'd trust them.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 

Umm . . . we're not winning . . . because of the Huey?


for decades, our enemies have learned our tactics and learned how to avoid those NOISY & slow hueys.

they also have learned a lesson from our neighboring vietnamese, oh yeah lots of it. the vietnamese have learned how to get rid of the american choppers thats why the US lost their initiative in vietnam. it was indeed a disastrous military operation, and yet one of the worst military operation in american history.

now u wanted us to repeat that mistake done by the americans?


Wars are not that simple. You can't blame one weapon system for the the loss of an entire war.

Can you really cite battle reports that state that Huey noise had a negative effect on an operation? Are you saying that after over 20 years of using them, the AFP has not learned to factor in chopper noise in their operations?

Can you cite writings or reports from the rebels thanking the PAF Hueys for their noise?

Or are these REALLY . . . just armchair assumptions.

I am not blind (in this case deaf) to the advantages of a helicopter with a lower noise signature. However, before we go around blaming noise, you have to figure out how much of a factor that really is

Do you even really know how the AFP uses its Hueys?

Do you believe the AFP actually tries the land its troops on top of insurgents?

Quote:
 
Quote:
 

The fact that the civilian government can't get its act together and provide basic services doesn't have anything to do with it eh?


this is unbelievable. u r ignoring the effects of a corrupted civilian government.


Read my statement again. Notice the "eh?" (as in the stereotypical Canadian "eh" . . . although I'm not Canadian)

I'm not ignoring it. YOU are.

By blaming everything on the Huey, your are absolving incompetent members of the civilian government from their responsibility in wasting the gains that the AFP made in the COIN war.

By Satur Ocampo's admission, the NPA was a spent force by the 90's -- because of Operation Lambat Bitag. They only came back from the brink because the economic development aspect of the operation was not carried out.

Note, the AFP had practically won -- with the Huey.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 

But the soldiers, airmen, and pilots who know the facts about these birds -- the people who really count -- don't share your views.


ah we'll see.


Nothing better to say? That's because the facts are on my side. I can cite references, and present people who have the facts.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 

Ah . . . herein lies the falacy of your thinking. Bigger is not necessarily better young man -- especially when it comes to helicopters.


while i dont really blame u here why u came up with these accusations, sa dami ba namang nakakadebate mo dito eh.

ok, in a matter of fact, i share ur views when it comes to the size of a new helicopter we should be getting. i never like those huge russian helos, neither the blackhawks. well indeed, they all been proved to be combat-ineffective against insurgents. lalo na pa kaya yung mas malalaking helos.


At least we agree on something.

Quote:
 
what i like is something stealthier, faster, and maybe about the same size of the hueys or smaller but can carry with the same amount of troops or more.  i dont know how possible is it but thats what i want for our military.

im telling u, if this aircraft that i wanted have to be vtol capable and fly like a harrier jet but can carry troops, then so be it.


Since what you want really doesn't exist yet . . . and its very unlikely that the AFP can fund the research and development of such an aircraft . . .

. . . isn't it reasonable for the PAF to stick with the Huey?

Do you want to retire the Huey now . . .then have the troops on the ground wait till this aircraft is developed?

Aircraft gestation periods can take 20 years man.
Avatar c/o: http://www.proudlypinoy.org/

Defense of the Republic of the Philippines (DefensePH)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Philippine Air Force · Next Topic »
Add Reply