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Defiant 300 project as starting point; Defiant 300 as COIN and CAS plane
Topic Started: Oct 16 2006, 09:40 PM (3,446 Views)
israeli
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^ Sir Possible, i concur with your opinion that he all-important skills and technical know-how do exist in this country as far as building a modernized Defiant 300 is concerned. however, the only setback that we could have here would be economics.

we do not have the facility and the technology to build and, perhaps, mass-produce the Defiant 300 aircraft for the PAF and other potential foreign customers. also, i assume that PADC also does not have the funds to actually support even the R&D needed to create a modernized Defiant 300.

if there is only one solution that could solve the Defiant 300 puzzle, that would be the active participation of the private sector in such undertaking- something that is difficult to find in this country. :wow: :headbang:
"To secure peace is to prepare for war." - Carl Von Clausewitz
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possible
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Already said that, israeli:

possible
Oct 19 2006, 02:45 AM
The Defiant 300 is a different plane but it proves that a machine like the A-67 Dragon is doable with imagination, expertise, and support.

Actually, on this forum, I'm the one who's consistently called attention to the economic drawbacks concerning unrealistic projects like the rescued-from-the-scrapheap F-20 and Cali. And, no, I am not talking about a "modernized Defiant 300", I am saying that the Defiant 300 project proves that the skills and technical know-how exist locally to build a completely-different plane but with a similar level of technological sophistication as the late lamented Defiant 300.

What's important is that the A-67 Dragon proves that the market exists for a plane in the Defiant 300 category, and that even relatively-small companies like Golden Aviation can produce a competitive product in this market. A Filipino COIN a/c would have a built-in advantage since there is definitely a local need for such a machine what with the OV-10's shortcomings. Reach-able, do-able, sell-able.

The economic angle is all that counts for me because that is how you talk to the intelligent, the people who really care. Everything else can go to hell.


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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possible
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Since many here would like to see the A-10 in PAF service, how about a compromise:

Posted Image

http://www.scaleaero.com/ov10nos2.htm

This is an OV-10D modified to carry the 20mm three-barrel cannon from the AH-1 Cobra. I think it’s too late in the day to modify our 30 year old Broncos, but:

possible
Oct 25 2006, 03:27 AM
The two-seat side-by-side A-67 is powered by a 1,250shp (930kW) Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-67 turbo­prop. The all-metal aircraft is capable of more than 300kt (555km/h) and 25,000ft (7,600m), and has a 67kt stall speed, says Goldsmith. Span is 11.4m and length 10.4m. Maximum take-off weight is 4,540kg (10,000lb), including 2,270kg of stores on five stations, but empty weight is just 1,470kg because of its torque-tube construction, he says. The fuselage, which would be stressed to 12g in production aircraft, also has storage capacity for internal payloads.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/...-67+Dragon.html

I doubt there's enough ground clearance under the A-67's belly to squeeze in a turret; however, looking at pics of the A-67, the area behind the cockpit seems quite extensive, and the plane’s specs claim a higher payload than the OV-10. Putting two-and-two together, it’s possible that the A-67 can accommodate a remote-controlled side-firing cannon or minigun similar to the AC-130 or its little brother the AU-23/AU-24, like so:

Posted Image

http://guerilla-av.ifrance.com/guerilla-av/pilatus.html

True, the A-67 is a low-wing monoplane unlike the AU-23/AU-24, but the AC-47 is an example of a very successful low-wing gunship, so wing configuration is not a problem. It’s already been mentioned that the A-67 has a higher payload than the OV-10, plus the A-67 is intended to have an internal weapons bay, so with a little ingenuity it can serve as the basis for a very mean yet affordable gunship, a decided asset in COIN ops.

Edit: An informed analysis of the side-firing weapons concept and of gunships in general:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchro...feb/hamlin.html


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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Tora^2
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I'm wondering if the A67 can also be fielded for "Developmental" (read: Hearts & Minds) missions which do not necessarily involve propaganda ops lke dropping leaflets but for civic-military ops like:

+crop dusting

+rainmaking

+seeding waterbodies with fish fingerlings

+aerial survey/mapmaking

+firefighting

This added versatility can further justify procurement
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tirad
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Interesting that A-67 but how do we know it will be cheaper or specs are accurate? It says a side-by-side instead of tandem cockpit, therefore bigger fuselage, and has a larger wing area, more metals than the usual tandem trainers. Making that internal bay work would add to costs too. Then the electronics. Yet it will be as fast as the Tucano but will have a very low stall speed; it also claims to carry twice the payload of a Bronco with only one engine in the same power range.
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possible
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For one thing, the A-67 is much lighter than the Super Tucano, empty weights being 1,470 kg vs. 2,420kg--almost 1,000 kilos heavier is the Tucano!

For another, while the frontal area for a side-by-side machine may be greater, a tandem a/c with the Super Tucano's bubble canopy actually suffers from more drag since the canopy itself is longer (two occupants in line versus two abreast) and protrudes more prominently from the fuselage. In contrast look at how the A-67's low-profile cockpit blends with its spine; armaments carried in the internal weapons bay won't be inducing any drag either. Also, sharing a cockpit means sharing instruments, saving again on weight and, equally-important, cost.

Certainly, much depends on the manufacturers' ability to make good on their hype, but with the target market for this kind of a/c naturally being third world nations burdened with the costs of fighting insurgencies, it's certain that a lot of attention will be paid to pricing.


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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Tora^2
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The 1,570K kilo internal storage capacity can make it a speedy cargo plane to airlift small quantities of supplies for remote disaster-hit areas or drop ammo, food or medical supplies for troops deep in insurgent territory.

It also makes me wonder how many 250 pounder AP bombs this thing can carry?

As for guns it would carry in a gunship role, the options the PAF would have right now would be M60Cs (the kinded mounted on Huey Doors and OV10 Sponsons), M1919 .30 cals or M2HB .50 cals.

I wonder if the PAF would be buying 7.62 gatlings for this type or helos. It would also be a good choice
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Cygnus
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In the late 80's the PAF was hoping to buy OV_10s. Capt. Villaruel [DOTC Under Secritary] back then with his PASF organization introduced the Defiant 300. Unknown to the public, after the defiant flew another bird was in the works. It was known as Norlindo Project.

Named after one of the designers of the Defiant 300. This program was to mark the Philippines entry in manufacturing military planes. Powered by two turbo-pro engines the Norlindo would have carried 2 to 4 19 round RLs and 2-4 250lbs bombs. A mock up was displayed in the 1st AMD [Asia Maritime Defence Exhibit] in 1991.

Nothing was heard of this plane after the PAF confirmed ordering the Broncos.

Another plane in the dark is called "Tinyaban" it resembles the S-211 but it is different in dimentions. To those graduates of PATTS and Airlink they have seen this during technical drawing class. I saw this with my prof, it was suppose to be the last plate we were to do. Luckily I was able to keep a copy of it. When I joined PASF years later, I saw the same 3D skinless drawing. I compared it to photos of the s-211s, and it certainly was not foreign made.

I'll look for this paper in my files I'll scann it and load it one of these days.



-

The Defiant was intended to be a basic and advance trainer [likes of Tucano]. The Defiant 500 would have been made of aluminum and powered by a turboprop engine. There were variations in the PAS files, one was the 600.

I can't recall seeing a drawing or plan of an armed Defiant. The 500 would probably have been the armed version as it has a more powerful engine.

-

I think I remember passing scans of the Norlindo to Manoks...
Providing cover, from your rear (",)
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City Hunter
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If anyone here is making a study on how to revive these shelved projects (hindi lang yun Defiant) I'll make every effort to support it. Kulitin ko uli yun mga officials natin. Medyo walang oras kasi lately to pursue this end.
Command is about authority, about appointment to a position. Effective leadership is different. It must be learned and practiced in order for it to rise to the level of art. You must love those you lead before you can be an effective leader. You can certainly command without that sense of commitment but you cannot lead without it; and without leadership, command is a hollow experience. .. a vacuum often filled with mistrust and ignorance.

Gen. Eric K. Shinseki
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epigone
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Tora^2
Nov 6 2006, 07:59 PM
I'm wondering if the A67 can also be fielded for "Developmental" (read: Hearts & Minds) missions which do not necessarily involve propaganda ops lke dropping leaflets but for civic-military ops like:

+crop dusting

+rainmaking

+seeding waterbodies with fish fingerlings

+aerial survey/mapmaking

+firefighting

This added versatility can further justify procurement

PROPAGANDA OPS LIKE DROPPING OF PROPAGANDA LEAFLETS WITH ALL THESE PRINTED POEMS AUTHORED BY A CERTAIN PVT. FIRST CLASS DOMINGO SANTOS ON ALL TOWNS AND CITIES OF LUZON, CEBU AND MINDANAO AND AERIAL SURVEILLANCE AND RECONNAISANCE!


DISMAL AND TEEMING WITH GHOST TOWNS

vladimir was fuming and was irate
the harvest the starving peasants ate
those lingering times when he removed the profit motive
on which they depended on their way by locomotive
tragic that it had a negative repercussion
that disastrous wild and galloping inflation
hence, they limited their own produce to their own consumption
millions of peasants died of starvation and exhaustion
the law of supply and demand they failed to refute
and labor camps that placed them in disrepute
the market Mikhail and Andrei adopt
in legal parlance, they were "estopped"
wages they determined by the law of supply and demand
and because of that Sergeyevich got a reprimand
how else can they attract workers in siberia?
if not to increase their wages there, asked maria
will it be another mass deportation?
and again determine the tempo of the Plan by intuition?
almost everyone should not had been a peasant
if it were democratic where life has been pleasant
commerce and trade should have absorbed all of them
and everyone can afford a car and a modem
everything has been available including all amenities in life
unless one is lazy or torn by domestic strife
thet capitalist has no assurance
dwindling profits that cover car insurance
only to provide utmost consumer satisfaction
all he has been getting was commie's extortion
Sison demeaned me for having no money
in my defense of free market for the sake of honey
mao declared that it was "voodoo economics"
remember your morbid mortality statistics
during that Great Bloody Purge
that made it fail to Leap Forward even to the slightest surge
give me then a valid explanation
this time no longer an aberration
psychic surgery which i spread with quivering pen
to all those desperate communists of Phnom Penh
finally, daily has he gotten death threats
while good Dubya assiduously solicited bets
whether the commies' wishes and prayers come true
that he loses the elections and disappears out of the blue

Copyright@1999 Mischa Cherkasin Santos-Poblete, Gapan, Nueva Ecija

Here is a copy of a poem inserted in a pocket of a slain NPA who in her letter to his son "had intermittent nightmares that caused her to wake up perspiring and sometimes sleep walking". She died in the arms of an AFP who tried all means to revive her.
GULONG LANG ANG PAHINGA (IN ANOTHER SPIRITUAL DIMENSION)
(Our Nightmarish Dreams Turned Us In And 'It's Fair', Part 2)

when will this ordeal come to expire
when will this double file of women begin to tire
armed with all sorts of weapons and knives
with which to strke me while i'm made to run between their wives
Yes, i have murdered AFP soldiers whose numbers i cannot count
now i encounter an imperishable nightmare in this battlefront
at this spiritual isolated time juncture
the only rest i have was the whirling of my body in its brief tenure
thereafter, i am drowning in a pool of liquefied manure
while i wish that this suffering will reach its comforting detour

Another NPA Lady Amazon in her days of sweatful nightmarish dreams as she related them to me!!'Look at you! You're a mess', as I look into her eyes. 'You cannot even look at me straight in the eye! You're a complete meltdown!!', See You Again Somewhere in Time, an anthology of poems written by Mischa Santos, Praetoria.

Here is another copy of a poem taken from the pockets of a slain NPA. He was an agent-of influence in the CPP-NPA influencing their policies and strategies. He probably was able to dupe his comrades into the trap in Tarlac.He admittedly killed some of his comrades while at war with AFP in Tarlac.

TAKE US WITH YOU, AFP AND US ARMY
(Our Nightmarish Dreams Turned Us In)

Nobody cares from among the press if you'll win or lose this war
Everyone either smokes, gossips, colludes or brags that he passed the bar
But you're assured that you'll triumph and carry on hostilities smiling
Because your Good God says in heaven you'll watch your kids sailing
Some of you might not be able to make it and pass away bellyaching
But you're comforted with such heavenly treat, that's why you're laughing
You shall not only win this war but eternally remain at peace
in heaven because you pray to God to whom you lease
your souls, while these bellicose NPAs after death, wake up caught standing
in the crossfire between two warring armies, jumping from their bancas, treading
petrified and driven to lunacy because of collusion, mayhem and phlegm (apathy)
and because joma sison has not ceased killing you by orders on his modem

THOUSANDS OF EX-COMMIES TURNED AFP SPIES IN CPP-NPA

JOMA SISON, HIS TERRORIST AGENDA, HIS MURDER VICTIMS

he hurled at me his biography as an alleged "human rights victim"
when upon his orders, i the recipient has been his torture victim
he hurled at me his rights as an accused
when upon his orders i the recipient has been abused (everyday provoked and harrassed in public places)
he hurled at me the alleged "murders committed by the military"
when i the recipient was threatened by him to be wary
he hurled at me the killing of six npas in capiz
when they were done in self defense to protect ___'s wife, alice
he hurled at me cory aquino's human rights record
but extols mao who murdered millions, off the record
he ordered his terrorists to banner headlines of "murdered leftist journalists"
but conceals the crimes of mao who murdered millions of pro-capitalist journalists
he condoled with them upon hearing the news about the murder of ninoy aquino
but has devised evil ways and means to assault and pauperize luisita's cory aquino
he criticized marcos, cory, estrada, ramos and arroyo as "corrupt"
when out of the 666 counts, he was acquitted on one by a judge whose paneros were also "corrupt"
he never offered condolences to the innocent victims of 9/11
and was either an accomplice or a principal in the murders of congressmen, one by one
the good and holy cory aquino granted him pardon and his prison release
but he offered no sympathies when her daughter was strickened with venereal disease
and so many many grisly and horrible crimes he has committed
and to communism and terrorism he remains committed
and so many many more faults and heinous crimes he has committed
but to democracy and free enterprise we in the AFP remain committed

TORTURE VICTIMS OF KAMPANYANG AHOS AND MURDER VICTIMS OF SISON

PLEASE LISTEN TO REASON AND SANITY, JOMA SISON!PLEASE!

joma goes to peking in the middle of the night
with cigarettes on his left and beer on his right
he argues with his arms flailing with all their might
but never stops to think if everything is alright
his unpredictable pattern of consumer behaviour
behooves him to make adam smith his saviour
for people under communism are alloted limited goods
through ration cards as if he can predict one's moods
they can accomodate his (sison's) unpredictable consumer demand
why can't they (China under mao)determine prices by the law of supply and demand
who are they to determine the tempo of the Plan (5-Year Economic Plan)
by intuition!!!! and allot a slice of meat a week to every man
who are they to deport hordes to a rice plantation
while some desert rice planting in utter desperation(70 million chinese peasants died because of forced collectivization resulting in famine)
because they have to spend their time in a queue or line
the cabbage leaves they can consume in sixty (days) are only nine
does the Party then knows best and its every whim followed?
or are Greenspan, Delano, Adam Smith and George Bush hallowed?

AHH DEMOCRACY! WAAHH CONRADO DE QUIROS!!
(I Can Commit Treason Through Subtle Ways and Means)

Ahh democracy! The Statue of Liberty! With all her attendant benefits
See how she can accomodate Sison's gnashing teeth and Conrado's hissful fits
See how they can slander our own democratically elected presidents
Bash them intermittently except their own fellow commie Filipino residents
Where a change of leadership can allegedly cause eviction of a non-conformist subordinate
Not similar to a Joma Sison takeover where all NPAs coordinate
All their efforts to rape, mangle and mutilate political prisoners
Similar to policies in communist countries where labor camps are teeming with bruised loners
Ahh democracy! the blind Statue of Liberty! See how free are we to speak of repression!!
While we release Sison and his comrades from prison for reasons of compassion
Ahh democracy! NPAs can whine of low wages while spending them on cigarettes
And kill anti-communists and anti-terrorists with grenades and sharp machettes
Portray the AFP as a bunch of human rights violators and villainous murderers
While they plot their scheming legal strategies in their hidden Makati chambers
Ahh democracy. the Statue of Liberty with her percolating neon lights!
Ahh constitutional democracy, promoter of human rights!
Waahh Conrado de Quiros and his self righteous emulation of NPA terrorists
Waahh Conrado de Quiros and his slanted articles in defense of communists!!!

AN APPEAL TO THE HAGUE PEACE PANEL

i bet that if australia and the philippines become communist states
rich NPAs shall hurriedly flee to the united states
fancy the dresses that liz taylor wore
and surely wish that laura bush becomes a whore
for the commies are aware that life in a communist state is hard
where slowly but surely they'll torture AFPs hard
why don't they want to buy or import a soviet lada
has it been because they fancy pontiacs from canada?
why don't they reside in communist vietnam
has it been because they want this country to be a bedlam?
has it been because they want to create chaos and sow anarchy
abolish the non-intrusive british monarchy?
through globalization the chinese benefit
through haggling we buy their shoes that fit
through globalization fidel castro and cubans benefit
those cuban cigars american smokers generously lit
for people like us in this country (australia)
it's better hanging bells on a christmas tree
than to be insurrectionists and rebels seeking death
that is what the Holy Bible has predicted and sayeth
how many levis jeans have gabrielas worn
how may hallmark greeting card have they torn
how many imported cigarettes have NPAs smoked
how many republicans have they killed or yoked
'times have they spent their holidays in the united states
while people in communist countries cannot even travel to foreign states
how many times have they condoned
torture by mao in china where joma's illegitimate daughters are cordoned
'times have i told you that CIAs too have survived assassination attempts
same way as sison had survived but still pre-empts
all chances to publish this kind of poetry
and all attempts to hang bells on a christmas tree

copyright. Mischa Santos, 1999. Praetoria

THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION AND THE DEATH OF ALLENDE
Poetical Book Review by James Duncan McPherson

doctrinaire ideology probably has blinded him to the facts before his eyes
inside, i wander through his intellectual swamp"* he failed to apprise
assisted suicide? nowhere in it can on find what's on his mind
to begin with, Chile did not belong to Salvador Allende", the mastermind
i exaggerate? in ousting him, "the military saved the country"!!
a civil war was being prepared by Marxists"without raison d'etre
and like the Philippine situation, would "mean an immense loss of life
half-a-million equivalent to 16 million dead in World War 2", such senseless strife
may i remind you, haslam, nixon's role was merely confined to bluff and bluster
but you attempted to make a theoretical mountain out of a quirky molehill" in the letter
nixon did not kill allende.... USA did not kill allende, period!!
and for that george w. bush should be conferred sovereign knighthood!!!

*Passages and quotation taken from an book review essay written by James R. Whelan, American Spectator. His books include Out of the Ashes: Life, Death and Transfiguration of Democracy in Chile, 1833-1988. He has reported on the country since 1958, and served 1922-95 as visiting professor of the University of Chile. He presently lives in Santiago.

NPA AMAZON, A RACIST, D'ONLY CAPITALIST EXPLOITER

she vents out to me her ____labor grievances
connives with the rest to get me, those unholy alliances
not only does she wants me to get fired
but time it on my birthday when i'm tired
she snipes at me for being black, no respect ( mbeke's nose is finely chiseled, mine is sabog)
sneered at me for having no car while one in a religious sect
not worthy to invoke nor matters worthy of discussion
she always gossips on the phone sitting on her chair cushion
oh, God, i might have one questionable shortcoming (mistakenly eating somebody's sandwich)
but please tell her not to ever lie to me about checks forthcoming

ANTI-APARTHEID HALF BLACK, HALF BROWN FILIPINO (Author, "Proud to Shine Shoes For Him", An Anthology of Poems Dedicated To the African People and "I'll Fight You, Sison)


Copyright Epgione's beloved daughter, Mischa S. 1999

WE INTEND TO BE USEFUL, NOT "USEFUL IDIOTS"(AMERICAN LIBERALS)
(An Exact Personification of a Manchurian Candidate, The Movie)
it has been my lifelong ambition and enduring dream
printed on hundreds of sheets of paper that equal one ream
closet communist spy and socialist liberal that i am
patriotic and loyal, from CPUSA* to uncle sam
that there comes the day when i become a liberal politician
feign those grandiose plans and remain an anti-war tactician
through active measures, i will inflict heavy toll on the enemy
control the press, slant the news to defeat a southeast asian ragtag army(AFP)
and that when i become the great, great american president
resilient that i am would give the hint: i am your fellow-commie US resident
thus, shall i create chaos and anarchy, in congress, uproar
well, watch those NPAs and G2s laugh and roar
shall i make a fool of myself when i make it known, such as in this era
we seek to dispel the myth: we are such "useful idiots", my dear elvira
try mocking me for economic sabotage and defrauding the american public
and i shall place you behind bars for making love to me, a lunatic

Signed:
John Hinckley
Ana Montes
Aldrich Ames
Lee Harvey Oswald
Hillary Clinton
Bill Clinton
John Kerry
Teresa Heinz Kerry
Kim Philby


:armyLol: :werock:
"Provocation is a valid defense against homicide"- Canadian Law on MSantor who 'cough, cough..', passes by my company room with a cup of coffee, waits for me in the bus shelter together with his friends and provoke me, and has been stalking me in forums like army.ca, navy.ca, timawa.net, militaryforums.com... He indeed is 'SEEKING DEATH' - Holy Bible.
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