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Defiant 300 project as starting point; Defiant 300 as COIN and CAS plane
Topic Started: Oct 16 2006, 09:40 PM (3,447 Views)
dstryer23
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:snipemo: :patrioticpinoy:
I read an article about the defiant 300 w/c was developed by PADC and shut down by the estrada administration. Correct me if Im wrong the aircraft was a product of piecing together some parts from other aircraft and there was plan to give it a turbo prop engine. Since the airforce is looking for planes to augment and possibly replace the OV 10 bronco why not continue this project with the help of private corporation , PADC and the airforce so that we will have a locally made aircraft for COIN and CAS purposes. What do you think?
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possible
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Ironically:

Quote:
 
DATE:18/10/06
SOURCE:Flightglobal.com

Picture exclusive: A-67 Dragon counter-insurgency aircraft quietly makes first flight

The pictures below show the A-67 Dragon which discreetly made its first flight in Missouri earlier this month.

Restoration specialists Golden Aviation built the aircraft reportedly for US Technology Corporation which is aiming the machine at the counter-insurgency market in the USA and overseas.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/...akes+first.html

Another poor man's Tucano. Little detail is given but the pictures give a positive impression.

The boxy appearance of the fuselage says that this plane is cheap to build (fewer curves mean less time and money spent bending sheet metal). Ditto the abbreviated canopy ala the Hawker Hurricane, saves on the weight and complexity of a wraparound bubble top like on the Tucano without sacrificing visibility in the context of ground attack missions (and the Hurricane was a mean CAS machine when not shooting down Nazi fighters).

The proportionately large control surfaces hint at good maneuverability. The wing itself looks nice and fat meaning plenty of room for fuel plus rigidity for hanging bombs or pods. The cockpit blending with the spine all the way to the tail creates a lot of empty real estate which means another potential location for a large fuel tank. The meaty tires say STOL capability. Finally, the PT6 turboprop engine speaks performance, reliability, and ease of maintenance.

The Defiant 300 is a different plane but it proves that a machine like the A-67 Dragon is doable with imagination, expertise, and support.


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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el_ramon
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yeah it looks like a tucano. actually the first thing that came to my mind was "Pilatus" due to the PT6 nose and its intake. but i think the pilatus, like pc-12 have better wings. wonder how much that bird should cost. the fuselage looks like it has boxes for formers hehe.
maybe they should just arm the JPATS since its in volume production now,maybe that would be cheaper and more proven.just rambling.
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possible
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You’re right, it does look like a PC-7. But to my eyes, the first thing it reminds me of is the PAF’s own SF.260. This baby however has a more powerful engine and appears to be a single-seater, maybe a local version can add wingtip fuel tanks like some SF.260s have to extend loiter time for COIN missions.

The other thing it reminded me of, as far as the concept goes, is another Pilatus: the Turbo Porter. Back in the seventies they actually built not one but two versions of it for COIN operations as a sort of poor man’s gunship:

Quote:
 
FAIRCHILD AU-23A PEACEMAKER

In May 1971 the Aeronautical Systems Division at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, began work on a project to evaluate the potential use of armed light utility short takeoff and landing aircraft in Southeast Asia. The program, named Credible Chase, was designed to add mobility and firepower to the South Vietnamese Air Forces in a relatively short time. Two commercial aircraft were selected for testing: the Fairchild Porter and the Helio Stallion. Initial performance testing was conducted with leased aircraft at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., and was successful enough to warrant a combat evaluation. The Porter, designated AU-23A, was fitted with a side-firing 20mm XM-197 Gatling cannon, four wing pylons and a center fuselage station for external ordnance. The 20mm cannon was essentially a three barrel version of the M61 "Vulcan" 6-barrel 20mm cannon. The aircraft could carry a variety of ordnance including forward firing gun pods, 500 and 250 pound bombs, napalm units, cluster bomb units, flares, rockets, smoke grenades and propaganda leaflet dispensers.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheet...eet.asp?id=3228

Helio Stallion: Warhorse

Originally intended for CIA/Air America use and various "sneaky pete" missions, the AU-24s were among the least-known military aircraft of all time. Both they and the AU-23s were used for flights into Laos and northeastern Cambodia from Vietnam. Later, they were turned over to the VNAF and, when the U.S. began direct support of the Lon Nol regime in its war against the expanding Khmer Rouge, they were transferred to Phnom Penh.

Davis, an unabashed partisan, calls the Fairchild/Pilatus AU-23 "the box the Stallion came in," explaining there's no difference in cost, the Porter is less forgiving, the fuel consumption is higher, the speed lower, the useful load 300 pounds less. He also says the airplane had to be beefed up to carry 5,100 pounds, and it lost the tail when powered by the geared Garrett engine.

The Military Equipment Delivery Team-Cambodia (MEDTC) had T-28s, AU-24s, C-123's, AC-47s with quad .50s, regular C-47s and UH-1H gunships and slicks, and a team of six to nine joint-service personnel. "We flew night missions, with rockets and 20 mm and so on, for almost a year before the (military) mission recognized it," pioneering attack methods in the AU-24. On the other hand, the T-28s didn't fly at night under any conditions until very late in 1975, when they joined the Stallions on interdiction patrols up and down the Mekong.

Several times, Davis recalls receiving accurate ground fire and coming home to find holes in the wings and fuselage, but "nothing earth-shaking. Normally I never even knew I had a problem."

Powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT-6A-27 680 shp turbine, the AU-24s cost the government $292,000 each in 1972. Since the, the cost of engines has jumped by $50,000. Unlike the one-off civilian certificated Stallion, which had a certificated gross weight of 5,100 pounds, the AU-24s were flown by the military at 6,300 pounds gross at a 3G load. There are over 300 minor modifications to the military bird, mostly to fit it for a spotter/ground attack role. That's why it took Davis over a year to get the airplanes recertificated in the standard category.

Normal cruise is considered to be 206 mph (75 percent power) to 160 mph (60 percent). That's not bad for a single-engine eight-place airplane with a 2,800-pound useful load. And, among other changes, Davis got the official ceiling upped from 20,000 to 24,000 feet and suspects it will go to 30,000 feet. He notes he was still getting 800 fpm rate of climb at 5,800 pounds and 20,000 feet.

It's really cheap to fly, too. Fuel costs $35 per hour, and Davis figures a sinking fund of $10 per hour on the engine. "You have less maintenance per hour on this airplane than you do on anything else.

Ugly or not, AU-24 or civilian 550A, the Helio Stallion is a thoroughbred performer. And it's a shame that production has stopped. But, if you just can't live without one-well 91F is for sale. And the price? Only $287,000, a bargain. The first airplane sold for over $300,000!

http://www.intechno.com/helio_stallion_airprogress4.html

Well, the AU-23 and AU-24 are high wing monoplanes with a cabin and tailwheel, but they are still dedicated COIN a/c same as the A-67 claims to be, with the AH-1 Cobra’s 20mm Gatling to boot. I have no doubt that Filipinos can build these things locally if the PAF brass decides the benefits merits the investment.

As far as the JPATS is concerned they already have a strike version of the T-6 available. The pic looks fantastic but so is the price: $6 million each. The A-67 looks to be a lot cheaper still.


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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israeli
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we have two "dead" projects that we could resurrect- the Defiant 300 and the Cali Pinto. i am wondering which between the two is more feasible as far as modernization and marketing are concerned.
"To secure peace is to prepare for war." - Carl Von Clausewitz
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el_ramon
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hehe $6m! wow. that would kill it. hehe

israeli.. unfortunately Capt.Villaruel is no longer with us.
that makes defiant 300's chance of getting any attention virtually zero.
as for cali..well that is older.i think PAF has long lost its interest in it.
i dont even know if anyone involved in it directly or indirectly is still alive today.

i guess it's our generation now. there's a need,there's a market
wanna offer something? (wonder how much a used PC-6 is goingnowadays:))

the only sad part of the equation is,we have the market and demand but no cash.

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possible
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More on the A-67 Dragon:

Quote:
 
DATE:24/10/06
SOURCE:Flight International

Warbird specialist flies A-67 Dragon

A privately built counter-insurgency aircraft has begun flight testing, and its developers are trying to interest US and foreign military customers.

Designed and built by warbird restoration specialist Golden Aviation for Ohio-based US Aircraft, the A-67 Dragon flew for the first time earlier this month, but was damaged when its left main landing gear collapsed because of a weak link.

Repairs are being finalised and the aircraft will fly again soon, says designer David Goldsmith. The two-seat side-by-side A-67 is powered by a 1,250shp (930kW) Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-67 turbo­prop. The all-metal aircraft is capable of more than 300kt (555km/h) and 25,000ft (7,600m), and has a 67kt stall speed, says Goldsmith. Span is 11.4m and length 10.4m. Maximum take-off weight is 4,540kg (10,000lb), including 2,270kg of stores on five stations, but empty weight is just 1,470kg because of its torque-tube construction, he says. The fuselage, which would be stressed to 12g in production aircraft, also has storage capacity for internal payloads.

Monett, Missouri-based Golden is funded by US Aircraft to complete the first 50h of flight testing, says Goldsmith, adding: "Hopefully we will build the next few prototypes to evolve the design." The long-term plan, he says, is to build the aircraft in Canton, Ohio.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/...-67+Dragon.html

Interesting. That extra real estate is actually meant for an internal weapons bay.

The performance figures are impressive. Compare them to the usual suspects:

OV-10 Bronco:

244kt max. speed
26,000-27,000ft service ceiling
1,633kg of stores

Super Tucano:

300kt
35,000ft
1,500kg of stores

My impression is that the manufacturer will accept licence-production (or even sell the design?) assuming $$$...

Not enough details yet, but certainly worth keeping an eye on... :crawling:


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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jammerjamesky
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Very promising considering the payload capacity...

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City Hunter
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One possible block to this idea would probably be the issue that this was initiated on an administration that many who are in power now oppose to. Di ba this was killed because it was linked to Ramos when Erap took office. Although there may still be a possibility considering officials nowadays label currently finished projects as theirs kahit hindi naman sila ang nagsimula at naghirap gawin.

Madami pang dead projects maliban dito. Yun lang sa IST madami na which could've made answers to much of our aviation needs. Pati yun eruplano na kayang ordinary gasoline lang matagal na meron sa school ko. Yun mga kasama ko pa nga bumibili ng gasolina sa kanto when it was tested for possible flight during the anniversary.
Command is about authority, about appointment to a position. Effective leadership is different. It must be learned and practiced in order for it to rise to the level of art. You must love those you lead before you can be an effective leader. You can certainly command without that sense of commitment but you cannot lead without it; and without leadership, command is a hollow experience. .. a vacuum often filled with mistrust and ignorance.

Gen. Eric K. Shinseki
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possible
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City Hunter
Nov 1 2006, 02:53 PM
One possible block to this idea would probably be the issue that this was initiated on an administration that many who are in power now oppose to. Di ba this was killed because it was linked to Ramos when Erap took office. Although there may still be a possibility considering officials nowadays label currently finished projects as theirs kahit hindi naman sila ang nagsimula at naghirap gawin.

Madami pang dead projects maliban dito. Yun lang sa IST madami na which could've made answers to much of our aviation needs. Pati yun eruplano na kayang ordinary gasoline lang matagal na meron sa school ko. Yun mga kasama ko pa nga bumibili ng gasolina sa kanto when it was tested for possible flight during the anniversary.

The demise of the Defiant 300 is no hindrance to the idea of a locally-made A-67 Dragon or similar COIN a/c because as I said at the very beginning:

possible
Oct 19 2006, 02:45 AM
The Defiant 300 is a different plane but it proves that a machine like the A-67 Dragon is doable with imagination, expertise, and support.

The Defiant 300 demonstrates that even though political support is lacking, the all-important skills and technical know-how do exist locally.


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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