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Before we start making MRFs or Attack Jets.....; ...START SIMPLE PLEASE!!!!
Topic Started: May 15 2006, 01:56 AM (2,166 Views)
Tora^2
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I know the Philippine skies seem so naked without decent fighter aircraft patrolling skies. With the Chinese muscling into our share of the Spratlys we need systems that sends a clear KEEP OFF or NO TREASPASSING to those who wish to encroach on our sovereign waters.

However, we can't even afford to maintain more than 4 S211 trainer jets that we're forced to field as attack jets and fighters. We can't afford to buy F5A replacements.

Types in this market to fill the fighter role are too expensive or too politically sensitive to buy since it would piss off our major ally, the US and it is in a position to block such purchases.

One solution me and several other members proposed is to build our own fighter jets which can put our aircraft industry put on afterburner and give us another source of livelihood aside from OFWs and call centers. In recent discussions, the best types to to reverse engineer or copy were the Northrop Grumman F20 Tigershark and the Dornier-Dassault Alpha Jet.

However, whatever funds that do end up with the DND ends up fighting festering insurgencies by Communists, and Islamic fundamentalist groups backed by or are part of a transnational network. What the AFP badly needs for the PAF are added mobility through utility helicopters and tac transport planes and close air support using light attack helos and COIN planes plus extra guys with rifles.

Another thing I realized is that our aircraft industry is still fetal or embryonic. Yes, we do have the capbility to service aircraft from General Aviation planes to Airliners. Yes, we have assembeld aircraft like the MBB105 Bolkows and the S211. And yes we have made our own mod-jobs and one-off prototypes like a C47 flying hospital, the Irene Glider, Layang, Hummingbird helo and the license-build Cali Super Pinto.

The problem is that we lack capital and most especially, experience in commercial or medium scale production of indigenous designs. We badly need experience in manufacturing indigenous designs of a run of at least 10 or more planes before we can even get our own fighter jet off the ground much less build them.

The best way to start would be to make simpler designs first. I'm not talking about fast jets or even helicopters but lightweight General Aviation turboprops which are viable in the commercial market for sport flying, training pilots and many other tasks.

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Tora^2
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They also have a future in the PAF. Aside from acting as basic, primary and advanced trainers, we can also field them in a wide range of roles like:

Utility Transports: STOL planes like the Pilatus Turbo porter or the Fiessler 106 Storch can go to places like mountains and even in the middle of war-ravaged cities which seems to be strictly helicopter territory. The beauty of such planes is that they're faster more reliable, easier to fly and maintain and have better range than other helos in this category like the Huey.

Spotters/FACs: The PAF got its start flying this sort of aircraft namely Stinson L16 Sentinels. Like the more well-known Piper Cub they were heavily used in WW2 through Korea to spot for artillery and SAR. They also can be of very big help coordinating air assets in airstrikes or SAR missions.

COIN Close Air Support planes: Intermediate trainers like the Super Tuccano, SF260 and the T28 Tora Tora or special variants of such aircraft have been used for attack missions carrying 250-500-lb bombs, 2.75-in FFAR rocket pods and .50 cal gunpods.
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possible
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A Nomad replacement. That is both something within reach and needed.

Baby steps, baby steps... :crawling:


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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Manokski
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possible
May 15 2006, 04:29 AM
A Nomad replacement. That is both something within reach and needed.

Baby steps, baby steps... :crawling:

We were not as far from this as people think but events interceded.

I was meaning to update my whatifs page for a while but since I never got around to it, here is an excerpt:

By the mid 80s, the PAF was in the market for a Nomad replacement as well as an aircraft to fill the gap left by the retirement of the C-47s. The solution came in the form of the UV-23A Skytrader Scout designed Skytrader Aircraft rporation.

The aircraft itself looked like a slightly larger version of the Nomad but had several unique features. It had an advanced wing with both leading edge slats and full span blown flaps that utilized the "Coanda effect" conferring on the aircraft excellent STOL performance. Another unique feature was a rear ramp that could be opened in flight. The engines were mounted high on the wings with shrouded exhausts that gave it a very low infra-red signature. The initial engines were French Turbomeca Astazous with the exhausts shielded by the wings ala Basler BT.

A full co-production deal worth $167 million was in the works between the Philippine government and Samsung Aerospace Industries of South Korean with funding largely provided by the US as compensation for the extension of the Military Bases Agreement.

We all know how the Military Bases Ageement went...we were so close.

More details here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...craft/uv-23.htm

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MSantor
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No offense to the main poster, but having a perennial counterinsurgency problem is no excuse to let down external defense. If one looks at other Southeast Asian nations like Thailand and Indonesia, who also have their own insurgency problems, theywere still able to MAKE THE BUDGET for MRFs. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Thai Air Force has F-16s even if the govt. is busy with those Islamic separatists in the mostly Muslim provinces of Narithiwat and Pattani. This goes for the same for the Indonesian Air Force having the F-16s even with their Banda Aceh Separatist problem. And if one is narrow-minded enough to say those are unfair comparisons, look at Colombia, which I believe has a comparable, long-running insurgency problem- but they are still able to afford MRFs- namely Kfirs and Mirages! I use these nations as examples since they have similar problems to RP in terms of political instability problems and the sizes of their economies.


The Philippines is already stuck making baby steps- when is the RP govt. gonna get the balls just to MAKE the big steps? If counterinsurgency concerns it the usual excuse, I would still argue for MRFs since they can do the CAS role as well.

If it were up to me- and I know it isn't- I would put all the budget into one or two MRF squadrons and one squadron of transports and retire all the other aircraft. I would also get rid of all the redudant PAF ground units used like infantry and get rid of Soldier athletes as well as reduce the number of PAF Reserve and ROTC units. And I would reduce all the overhead by reducing the number of general staff officers to one or two generals, since I don't believe an air force without serious projection capability deserves that many generals presiding over airmen in particular who are idle paper-pushers like those in adminstrative units. But it isn't up to me.
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." - Henry Ford

"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill


"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking"- Gen. George S. Patton
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Tora^2
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MSantor, I agree with most points especially those that reflect harsh realities that afflict the government and the defense establishment.

The AFP has a problem allocating its resources. It also has a problem regarding its priorities. What's more, it can't get it's boots and BDA clean of partisan politics despite attempts to de-politicize the ranks. The Palace is actually reaching out to AGFO for it to get a sweet yes for Cha Cha.

Speaking of the Palace, the administration is pulling all stops to ensure its self-serving agenda is fulfilled. Aside from the Cha Cha express, it is resorting to an assortment of short-term palliative measures like "Arrovonomics" to appease the people, foreign investors and Washington.

Based on available info, insurgents and terrorist groups can be easily contained at the moment. However, the Palace fears that these groups could grow into resurgence by riding along with the current Political crisis. They could end up to many disgruntled citizens as a viable alternative to the existing government.

As for the Defense establishment, it is not keen to committing to the Defense of the country from the expansionism of other countries and would rather resort to diplomacy and the intervention of the US.

However, given the current state of the political scene and economy, the current PAF procurement plans would have to do. MRFs would have to wait until our economy and political situation to stabilize. Designed and made in the Philippines MRFs will have to wait even longer. We need time for the local industry to develop further.

I am proposing that we start with Gen. Aviation aircraft not because they're simple to build but because they're more commercially viable than Military jets. They have a full range of applications in civil use from transporting fresh fish to cropdusting. If in military use, they are best fielded in COIN operations because of their excellent rough field capability and low costs.
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jammerjamesky
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Before we should start making our own COIN, TRANSPORT, MRF's we should consider

1. Ammendment of the 1995 AFP modernization law.

2. Pass a law to further enhance our defense industry in the country (to further put a guidance with the defense sector).

3. Make the defense industry as an open market.

4. Our National Government should start investing and convince the international defense company to invest in the country.

5. Prioritize our local investors and manufacturers.

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possible
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Manokski
May 15 2006, 02:32 PM
We were not as far from this as people think but events interceded.

I was meaning to update my whatifs page for a while but since I never got around to it, here is an excerpt:

By the mid 80s, the PAF was in the market for a Nomad replacement as well as an aircraft to fill the gap left by the retirement of the C-47s.  The solution came in the form of the UV-23A Skytrader Scout designed Skytrader Aircraft rporation.

The aircraft itself looked like a slightly larger version of the Nomad but had several unique features.  It had an advanced wing with both leading edge slats and full span blown flaps that utilized the "Coanda effect" conferring on the aircraft excellent STOL performance.  Another unique feature was a rear ramp that could be opened in flight.  The engines were mounted high on the wings with shrouded exhausts that gave it a very low infra-red signature.  The initial engines were French Turbomeca Astazous with the exhausts shielded by the wings ala Basler BT.

A full co-production deal worth $167 million was in the works between the Philippine government and Samsung Aerospace Industries of South Korean with funding largely provided by the US as compensation for the extension of the Military Bases Agreement.

We all know how the Military Bases Ageement went...we were so close.

Lost opportunity indeed.

Quote:
 
DATE:16/05/06
SOURCE:Flight International

Brazil looks to replace light transport fleet

Brazil’s air force has received proposals from EADS Casa and PZL Mielec to replace its current Embraer EMB-110 Bandeirante light transports with about 80 new aircraft.

The companies are offering their respective C-212-400 and M-28B Skytruck designs for the $925 million programme, which will be contracted under direct selection by the air force, rather than via public bids.

Unlike other current procurements, the service is interested in establishing an assembly line to licence-build the new aircraft at its Campo de Marte-based São Paulo Air Maintenance Centre.

Brazil outlined a requirement in 2000 to find a domestic replacement for its EMB-110s, for which Embraer – which was reluctant to develop a new aircraft to meet the requirement – proposed buying used EMB-120s and remanufacturing them to EMB-120K military transport standards.

However, the air force found this to be operationally unsuitable and opted to purchase secondhand Cessna 208 Caravans as an interim measure.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/...port+fleet.html

The market exists and the Skytrader's innovative design would have been a significant improvement on the C-212 and Skytruck. Maybe it's not too late to take another look at this and other might-have-beens.


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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Tora^2
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Aside from replacing the Nomad in light transport/liaison duties, I was hoping a light STOL plane can do the job of the Huey in hauling troops from base to battlefield.

STOL planes have better carrying capacity, range and rough field capability than helicopters which are better reserved for SAR and attack duties.
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israeli
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i'm just curious. is it possible for any aerospace company (perhaps, a Filipino one) to "revive" the UV-23? is there any potential market for the "revived" UV-23 aside from the Philippines?

in my honest opinion, although the UV-23 seems to be a "promising" aircraft, the project has long been dead. it will be "a safe choice" for the PAF to consider either the C-212 Aviocar or the M28 Skytruck as replacement for the Nomad given the fact that both the Aviocar and the Skytruck are well-tested and in use in many countries around the world. :armywink:
"To secure peace is to prepare for war." - Carl Von Clausewitz
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