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No Air, No Force: A Wake-up Call; the debate in the Senate
Topic Started: Feb 7 2006, 02:28 AM (7,456 Views)
israeli
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^ that damn E.O. is really doing bullsh!t on the budget of some government agencies and irking some senators, most especially Manny Villar, the current chairman of the Senate Finance Committee.

just imagine if Generoso Senga and Avelino Cruz fail to appear in the budget hearings because of E.O. 464. that will force the senators not to allocate any budget at all for the AFP and the DND, respectively. :headbang:

i wish comrade City Hunter can update us on his correspondence with the office of Senator Pimentel and other government and military officials. it is really important that we in the Forum help in making these concerned officers of government and the military be aware of our suggestions on how to improve the whole AFP.
"To secure peace is to prepare for war." - Carl Von Clausewitz
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possible
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Tora^2
Feb 10 2006, 10:53 PM
While you folks are talking about the Senators who shall champion AFP modenrization, I'm just curious. Has the Senate finished deliberations on the DND/AFP budget yet?

I'm really worried since many department heads including mid-level officials refuse to report to the Senate citing EO464 especially after the PCGG was given a P1 annual budget after Senators gave the chair a dressing down over secret deals it had allegedly been making.

What's worse, the Senate would raise the issue of the alleged utilization of the personnel, units and other resources of the AFP in Partisan Political Activities.

Looks like "Reenacted Budget" would be the keyword again for FY2006.

this thread is for genuine problems confronting PAF modernization like funding and priorities, not artificial hindrances like Cabinet secretaries' petty snubbing of budget hearings. since there is nothing behind that brouhaha but cheap political bickering, it's best left to the Philippine Politics and Current Events sub-forum, if you want to discuss it then by all means open a thread for that yourself, this thread has been derailed enough from the relevant issues.


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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Tora^2
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Sir, I have to agree with you that all that EO 464 along with all that Hello Garci noise is 100% Bull.

However, such distractions eat valuable time better spent for discussing more serious issues like budgetary priorities .

Furthermore the fact that it delays funds the AFP badly needs to acquire supplies equipment and serious training so that it can fulfill its mandate effectively makes this noise a serious hindrance to AFP modernization.

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jammerjamesky
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Quote:
 
(Tora^2 @ Feb 10 2006, 10:53 PM)
While you folks are talking about the Senators who shall champion AFP modenrization, I'm just curious. Has the Senate finished deliberations on the DND/AFP budget yet?

I'm really worried since many department heads including mid-level officials refuse to report to the Senate citing EO464 especially after the PCGG was given a P1 annual budget after Senators gave the chair a dressing down over secret deals it had allegedly been making.

What's worse, the Senate would raise the issue of the alleged utilization of the personnel, units and other resources of the AFP in Partisan Political Activities.

Looks like "Reenacted Budget" would be the keyword again for FY2006.



For me its only the right action that the president should take. How can be the two houses have a parallel budget hearing?Does it mean they have a different budget proposal? Ano ba talga ang dapat sa isang batas? dba it should be finished first in the lower house before it should be taken up to the Senate? Kung di nila maresolove ang ibang part ng batas dba saka sila mag convene into joint session? Ganoon dapat dba?

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^ that damn E.O. is really doing bullsh!t on the budget of some government agencies and irking some senators, most especially Manny Villar, the current chairman of the Senate Finance Committee.


As what ive understand on what is really happineng in the senate hearing right now is purely a political bickering. How can this two houses have a parallel budget hearing? And it really shows that this hearing is used as an investigation by this senators. What they should really think also, is that they should follow also the rules. Eh kung di nila magawa yun,it only shows that meron talgang problema sa kanila mismo.

Tsaka ang pagkakaintindi ko rin sa E.O. 464 na yan is that they should furnish a copy of question related to what topic to be tuckled.Executive department should also protect itself sa mga political motive ng mga senator natin. Nakikita natin sa senate hearing out of context ang hearing. Madalas na iinsulto pa ang mga resource person pagdating sa hearing.madalas when this senators come to the hearing malayo sa agenda ang mga tanong. Kung kayo ang resource person pupunta ba kayo sa hearing kung ganoong mga tanong lang di yung totoong pakay?

Ano ba talga ang tama? Dba they should follow the rule also on how to pass the bill. mahirap ba yun intindihin? from the house of representatives to senate dba? din covene into a joint committee to resolve some area of differences.

PURELY POLITICAL MOVE LANG YAN on WHAT is going on the senate..... di naman cguro talga tayo bobo kung ano ang dapat nilang gawin. baka iwas lang sa totoong trabaho ng senate na gumawa ng mga batas.nakakalito kaya lahat pumapapel sa hearing. :drunk:
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rocky serrantes
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Tama si Tigatihugis sa Syudad (City Hunter) tungkol kay 5th Class Sergeant Osmena, interpellator pest yan, spouting words just for the sake of saying something. Pero kung kailangan talaga natin ng rapid deployment, and i mean real rapid, AFP can commandeer smaller Airbuses and domestic planes which can accommodate at least a company or more of troops; or even lease them (for reasonable terms) from any international airport in Metro Manila and Cebu to destinations in Mindanao or other flashpoints. Of course there are security and other considerations.

If you guys are really interested in touching base with the lower house defense and public order committees (solis (who replaced rep. roygoles - and espino, former soldiers both), i scanned the yellow pages government listings and found that the trunkline of lower house is 9315001 and had myself connected to mr. rigor as committee sec by asking for the local or direct lines of the two committees.

are you guys also sending missives or info to the congressional email site which can be found in philgovt.com?
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flipzi
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possible
Feb 10 2006, 04:49 PM
correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t seem to find any mention in your reply of General Biazon’s failure to “balance his understanding” and his lack of “MATINUNG pananaw” regarding the “relationship between the national defense and the delivery of basic services”, or of his being "CONFUSED", or of his “age”, or his being “kawawa”, or of his lack of “right mindset”, “skills”, or “wit”.

Well, if he mentioned the importance of national defense or security to our economy and to that of the capacity in providing "basic services", his interpellation could have propelled the deliberation to a higher stage. But since his own interpellation was nothing but the typical view that you'll get from military man, his part seemed worthless.

Nevertheless, I believe ive been too harsh on the Senator. I should have considered that he might just have forgotten to think about that.
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Senator Biazon revealed that he has been bird-dogging the military leadership on its modernization program to no avail. He believed that it was time that the Senate conducted a hearing on the matter in view of the fact that scarce government resources should be adjusted to address the full implementation of the AFP Modernization Program.

This quotation above should have been supported with the explanation of the relationship between security and the economy.
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.... what else did the “statesman” Pimentel contribute to the cause of modernizing the PAF?

He supported the modernizatiopn program. His support on weeding out the corrupt breed in the military so that the funds will not be wasted is based on reality.
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For his part, Senator Gordon stated that he would like the military to have faster patrol crafts that can be used in instances when other forces intrude into Philippine airspace or territorial waters.

Senator Pimentel noted, however, that it is important to prioritize such needs even as he expressed support for Senator Osmeña’s position that scoundrels who make money out of the people should be weeded out of the armed forces. 

Nevertheless, i might have indeed overrated the man because the initiative of Sen. Gordon was quelled prematurely. If Sen. Pimentel performed better and considered the other issues, like the effects of rebellion od our economy, that interpellation might have brought the agenda to the next stage. But instead, his failure to consider that relationship helped end the discussion prematurely.

That's it. I guess you're right. Pong Biazon deserves a second try while Sen. Pimentel needs to do better than that.

Me? I need to be more forgiving next time. And I will. So, you can forgive me for being too unforgiving sometimes.
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edwin
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flipzi
Feb 8 2006, 02:06 PM

External defense is as important as our COIN or internal security concerns.
We lost the Mischief Reef because PEOPLE THINK THAT WE DONT NEED EXTERNAL DEFENSE.



BTW, the reason why we are acquiring MULTI-ROLE FIGHTERS is that these arent just for external defense but also for our COIN concerns... BEING MULTI-ROLE assets.
Never forget that our Air Force GREATLY ENHANCES the capability of our ground and naval forces.


Kaya wag nating ipalagay na dahil sa nakatengga lang sa base ang MRF ay walang silbi. Dahil bihira lang talaga sila gagana. Dahil yung bihirang kaso na yun ay LUBHA NAMAN MALAKI EPEKTO sa tin. Gaya ng pagkawala ng Mischief Reef.


I strongly agree sir, Procurement of MRF are not just a SEXY display in the base. It is not telling to our neighbors "Hey we have an MRF much better than yours" NOR to compete with what our neighbors have in their arsenal.

It is about the overall SECURITY & PROTECTION for our country to achieve STABILITY. Those MRF are one of the Vital Tools for our National Security and sovereignity. PAF have many important FUNCTIONS in the interest of our countrys defense.

We cannot assume that nobody will invade us, therefore our defense posture must be taken seriously to protect ourselves and country.

Philippine Politics must act and make an iron will desicion to secure a credible Frontline Combat Aircraft that will seriously serve as our Primary Protector and guardian againts all types of threat whether internal or external. Peace to all.
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datu
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In light of the recent tradgedy in Leyte i remembered this topic and what the Senator said:

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Disaster after disaster has befallen our nation. The earthquake that devastated Baguio in July 1990 caused landslides that made it virtually impossible to reach Baguio via land travel. I am sure that the series of typhoons that devastated Quezon in 2004 is still fresh in our minds. Parts of Aurora and Quezon were cut off by floods, bridges were destroyed and there was no way to reach our stranded people except via air. Unfortunately, our air force did not have the aircraft that would have enabled it to land in the area. Hence, soldiers and volunteers had to walk to these areas, making the process of rescue operations extremely arduous. In fact, it exacerbated the already weak frames of our helicopters that had to go and traverse those very severe conditions along the Quezon mountain range.

If we will recall, in the Bente-Otso de Mayo incident sometime in the ‘60s, we had to rely on American helicopters to rescue our people in Central Luzon who were completely marooned and who had to be supplied from the air.

Right now, after the 7.6 magnitude earthquake suffered by Pakistan that has already taken 30,000 lives and still rising, they are asking for assistance despite the fact that they have more helicopters than we do. In fact, I think they have about 247 helicopters. They are still asking for more helicopters from the world to assist them in the rescue and rehabilitation effort.

What if another disaster of this magnitude happens to the country? Are we prepared to deal with it? We have no equipment such as Med Evacuation aircraft or heavy lift aircraft to offer, and we have had to rely on the assistance from the US., time and again, to help us out during times of crisis.

According to the 2004 ranking of the emergency disasters data base, the Philippines ranks fourth in the list of most disaster-prone nations. Whether we speak of a land-based or a maritime disaster, the importance of air capability in terms of conducting search-and-rescue operations as well as reaching areas that are no longer passable by land, like what happened in Baguio, in Quezon and in Central Luzon, cannot be downplayed. Our inability to reach our people quickly can spell the difference between life and death. Right now, we only have two C-130s that can be used for rescue-and-evacuation operations. About six months ago, I took one of the two because there was only one C-130 operating to get Red Cross supplies to Sulu. And if that plane had crashed, then there would be no C-130 to supply our airmen or our people in Mindanao and Visayas, and no capability to medevac our wounded in that area.

--------------------

"What if another disaster of this magnitude happens to the country? Are we prepared to deal with it? We have no equipment such as Med Evacuation aircraft or heavy lift aircraft to offer, and we have had to rely on the assistance from the US., time and again, to help us out during times of crisis."
---I think in the following days this will be answered. As im writing this, the government is already overworked sending several PAF aircraft, helicopeters and atleast 1 C-130 are in the area already, but the governments still has to call on helop with the US answering.


"Right now, we only have two C-130s that can be used for rescue-and-evacuation operations. About six months ago, I took one of the two because there was only one C-130 operating to get Red Cross supplies to Sulu. And if that plane had crashed, then there would be no C-130 to supply our airmen or our people in Mindanao and Visayas, and no capability to medevac our wounded in that area."

Who is to blame for the current state of the C-130 fleet? The Senate that blocked the sale of the C-130Ks as mentioned in this article by the Senator also, Osmena being one of those critical to the deal. Wasnt this mentioned about Osmena?
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He recalled that in one of the public hearings, he questioned General Reyes and some other officials about the US$41-million contract for the purchase of four second-hand C-l3Os, costing US$4 million each, previously used by the Royal Air Force of the United Kingdom. Further, he stressed that C-130s are not used for reconnaissance as they are too heavy and consume a considerable amount of gas.
To give some information of this sale if memory serves me right, Lockheed Martin offered the C-130Ks i dunno if they were C.1 or C.3 models or of they retained the refueling probes like the British models. It was 2 C-130Ks, with maritime/surveilance radar equipment and 2 regular versions. The 2 surveilance equipment was removable -roll-on-roll-off modules- meaning they retain transport capabilities. This was on top to sweeten the Lockheed Martin package deal to set up facilities in Clark that was to repair/overhaul the PAF's C-130 fleet, at the time somewhere around 10 airframes including civvie L-100-20s but only 1 C-130 was opertional . Cost was something like $42million. Look at the PAF's C-130s now, we have to wait for US funds to fund a $4million overhaul worse yet they arent done in the philippines, we have to send our C-130s to Malaysia for the overhaul. This was arond 2001 when Arroyo just stepped into offive. If any "opposition" Senator much less Osmena rants their mouth off for Arroyo not doing anything or enough for the tradgedy in Leyte, make him eat his words and ask him why he and his opposition buddies didnt approve the overhaul deal. Let us all thank Senator Osmena and and all other jackasses for the state of the PAF's C-130s. From me to you, thank you Senator Osmena and other jackasses.


"F*ck it, Dude. Let's go bowling."
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datu
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To leave this off, the C-130s that the PAF has helping out in the relief efforts. 2 of the 2or3 operational C-130s the PAF has is commited here. Which makes you ask the question, what if they are needed elsewhere?

---Unless im mistaken this is one of the -H models, cant see the tail number.
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---This one cant be an -H model, missing tanks in the wing, note tail number 3633.
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"F*ck it, Dude. Let's go bowling."
---The Big Lebowski
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possible
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^what’s really pathetic is that Osmena’s acting as if the rest of us owes him a favor for shooting down the C-130 deal! is the PAF’s transport wing still based at Mactan? I wonder what they think about the man who virtually put them out of business…

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flipzi
Feb 13 2006, 06:07
Well, if he mentioned the importance of national defense or security to our economy and to that of the capacity in providing "basic services", his interpellation could have propelled the deliberation to a higher stage. But since his own interpellation was nothing but the typical view that you'll get from military man, his part seemed worthless.

Nevertheless, I believe ive been too harsh on the Senator. I should have considered that he might just have forgotten to think about that.

This quotation above should have been supported with the explanation of the relationship between security and the economy.

who said it wasn’t?

possible
Feb 10 2006, 04:49
Quote:
 
On a related matter, Senator Biazon stated that there is also a need to enhance the country's capability to protect its exclusive economic zone against poaching and smuggling. He revealed that he had received a raw information that Czechoslovakian-made SKS rifles are being smuggled into the country through Northern Luzon. He posited that this activity could be linked to the report of the Federal Bureau of Investigation that a group of civilians are ready to defend President Arroyo in case the military stages a coup d'etat. He asserted that the surveillance aircraft would be useless if there are no naval crafts like fast patrol boats to go after poachers and smugglers.

uhm, pardon me again, mr. flipz, but did you notice that “prioritizing” the acquisition of fast patrol boats was General Biazon’s idea, not Pimentel’s, and that this idea was contrary to Senator Gordon’s initial proposal, that of emphasizing surveillance aircraft?

didn’t you read the post you were supposed to be replying to, mr. flipz?

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He supported the modernizatiopn program. His support on weeding out the corrupt breed in the military so that the funds will not be wasted is based on reality.

again, a reality which EVERYBODY knows about already, mr. flipz, and it has been observed that Pimentel’s criticism smacks of opportunism in that it insinuates the same against Senator Gordon and honest PAF officers – oh, didn’t you notice that Pimentel failed to name names? thereby implicating every single officer in the PAF regardless of actual involvement - so what don’t you understand about the words “cheap pa-pogi at Senator Gordon’s and the PAF’s expense”, mr. flipz?

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Me? I need to be more forgiving next time. And I will. So, you can forgive me for being too unforgiving sometimes.

yours is not to forgive, young man, nor transparent attempts at face-saving, but to admit your mistakes honestly, God gave us all backbones, use it. as for General Biazon, rest assured, mr. flipz, his ideas as well as his reputation are in no way diminished by your opinions.

pasensya na, mr. flipz, but in this time of genuine crisis, we simply cannot afford any more misconceptions. let’s keep the idiots in the Senate- then again, let’s not! :dunno:


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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