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| Give the PAF some hardware! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 9 2005, 04:40 AM (1,912 Views) | |
| City Hunter | Apr 27 2006, 12:57 AM Post #11 |
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Pursuit for the Philippine Tigershark This is an update on my research and observation as to why the shelved Northrop F-20 “Tigershark” aircraft is a good choice to replace the retired Northrop F-5A/Bs of the Philippine Air Force. Do note that this is still an incomplete study and future analysis may be different with further availability of time and resources. The F-20 was conceived as a replacement for the F-5s then in service with the U.S and several of its allies. It was categorized as an export fighter that can be made available to U.S. allies not only due to the fact that it is affordable but capable as well. Also, previous U.S. actions dictate that the more capable equipment it develops will be used only by itself. The F-20’s rival was said to be the F-16 which originally contested against the YF-17 for the lightweight fighter program that the U.S. originally didn’t want (the lightweight fighter). When the F-20 prototypes were developed, it was also proposed that it, the F-20, be purchased by the U.S. for its defensive needs to assist the F-16. It was learned that the F-20 featured a faster sortie rate and better dogfighting ability which could complement the longer legs and speed of the F-16. Some said it was because of politics that killed the F-20 but I believe my research points out that it was because of politics and economics. Recall that the F-20 and F-16 were developed in the 80s. This was a troubled time not only for the U.S. but for the rest of the world as well. My info points out that the late Pres. Reagan had to bail out his country from a possible economic crisis. Note that no new wealth was generated during the period prior to this. Americans have splurged on luxury items and such in improving their lives. And to do this quite a number of them borrow. To arrest this development, the U.S. government had to act. They shifted their spendings towards the defense sector (note too this trend from then to the present) in order to bring about control. Since this would create work for those now in the red, their economy can return to what may seem normal wherein in actuality they are just delaying again the effect. But as the U.S. can no longer afford to help its allies with their purchases of American military hardware they have to do something which would also be a plus for them. Hence, although there were interested parties wanting to purchase F-20s the U.S. decreed that it is allowing anyone (of its allies and other friends) to purchase the F-16s (which were previously not allowed) as long as they have the money for it. Most having preference that a unit must first be in use with the country that made it had then passed over the F-20 and took the F-16 instead. Those who still wanted the F-20 were offered a nice deal for the F-16. Some who hesitated had instead switched to F-5Es instead until they decide again. Those that aren’t allowed such options or even the F-20 had to make do with developing one which hopefully benefits from the F-20 technology. Yet, when the F-16 came into service with many countries a deal involving the transfer of design, rights, production tooling and manufacturing jigs were not blocked by the U.S. Unfortunately, a lot of those offered with such declined as they see it as an inferior product. But, it is in my opinion that it would be a boon for the Philippines to go for such a package deal for our use. What would next be required is a proper program for us to exploit such an opportunity. The F-20 is the successor to the long-lived F-5s. Our PAF had used its F-5As for 40 years and even now they are on reserve for possible call when a serious crisis does develop. Several other countries are also using theirs still although a lot of the A and B models are being retired or offered for sale. But, being easy to operate and maintain it has endeared itself to many. And its capabilities are equally outstanding so long as the operator is up to the task. One clear fact is that an Iranian ace pilot of a F-5E downed by gunfire an Iraqi MiG-25 equally flown by an ace too. It only shows that it is still the pilot and its skill that is the final deciding factor in battle. For those who preferred to rely too much on technology, several U.S. fighters tried to down an Iraqi MiG-25 too with quite a number of AMRAAMs. I believe they were successful but at the cost of a lot of missiles in that attempt. Being better than the F-5s it succeeds over, the F-20 could give its pilots the ability to develop such kind of skill yet offering room for technological advantages. Imagine if PAF F-20 pilots trained to use the Tigershark to the fullest advantage with just their skill to rely upon are given the opportunity to upgrade in technological edge. A lot of people forgot that when they opted to depend too much on technology instead. The probable scenario for us would be to take the F-20 and initiate a study on how to simplify and develop it better (similar to the action done to turn the latest F-16s into true 4th generation models). This would require a national effort, which I believe, can still be done even by the present troubled administration. We need to realize too that not everything can be done here at once. This would then be the perfect opportunity to help the U.S. too. Not only to shift their focus away from their traditional method of solving their economy (that of focusing on defense spending when their economy is at risk once more) but fortifying it through more constructive and peaceful means. That, I believe, would address the war against terror even more effectively. But, to realize this we need to develop first an alternative and affordable power sources and fuel. It is high time that our officials take note of our local inventors and resources for such and support it. Also, we need to realize that saving in banks means not only to our secure future but to the nation as well. That being in debt just to improve our lifestyle isn’t a practical move – hence, the re-education not only of the youth but everyone. To also realize that selfish actions would affect a lot and must be severely punished. Going back to the F-20, we prepare the foundation for it first. Instead of building more state colleges we need to concentrate on improving the resources for the existing ones. That they be integrated in the national effort too – not just on the F-20 program but others as well. The first F-20s would be basic models wherein most would have no radar. This would be the basis for our war production models and budget offering to those on a tight-budget but wishing something to replace their F-5s or such. It can also be an advanced trainer which could also do well as an aggressor aircraft. The reason for this gradual development of it is to give time not only for refining the design but keeping the deadly edge of our aviators and maintenance personnel as well. The production line can also be modified to accept other jobs to support the development. In preparing the F-20 to be still capable against the latest combat aircrafts it may one day face, we need to study other designs including those shelved. Thrust vectoring is becoming the trend nowadays. Even air-to-air missiles possess this. The F-20 has great pointability that is said no other aircraft has yet matched. That would mean much even without thrust vectors. And considering that most aircrafts in service today were not really designed from the beginning with such we can take advantage of developing and producing the F-20 from scratch to address such if the need arises. As for its other abilities, do note that it is said to be superior in dogfighting ability over the basic F-16 despite its fly-by-wire technology. And the old MiG-29 also shows that it need not be based on instability to produce a responsive aircraft. We can take things further by integrating into our studies the optical camouflage used on some armored vehicles or a refinement of that Japanese “cloaking device”. Even the U.S. is studying it and has been rumored to have adapted it on one of their secret aircrafts. Add the plasma technology to produce radar stealth as on the test Yak-141 Freestyle, we would then have both optical and radar stealth for our F-20s. To defend and even defeat against missiles, even ballistic missiles, our radar-less equipped F-20s can be equipped with RADAN. I’ve mentioned this before and it’s a Russian developed technology that uses focused radio waves to stop engines and electronics. If that doesn’t work we could always factor in the laser and rail gun technology from the ChiComs and the infra-red and other radio-wave technology developed for offensive use by the Russians. Not to mention active defensive systems. Again, this would all be for nothing if we cannot produce sufficient amount of fuel for it. To train pilots and operate the aircraft we would require that there be no shortage for such. And that is what must first be focused. Not only would it solve much of our defense needs but equally help our economy. Of course, the politicians must realize that first and abandon any selfish dreams. |
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Command is about authority, about appointment to a position. Effective leadership is different. It must be learned and practiced in order for it to rise to the level of art. You must love those you lead before you can be an effective leader. You can certainly command without that sense of commitment but you cannot lead without it; and without leadership, command is a hollow experience. .. a vacuum often filled with mistrust and ignorance. Gen. Eric K. Shinseki | |
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| edwin | Apr 27 2006, 05:01 AM Post #12 |
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cityHunter, From your post about the things that can be done to F-20 is like another Gripen in the making Philippine version. Peace to all.
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![]() It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and reality of tomorrow. | |
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| City Hunter | Apr 27 2006, 08:38 AM Post #13 |
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Sir edwin, I've also sent word to the OP and the Swedish embassy about that 70 Gripens planned to be scrapped. That we could somehow avail of this opportunity to avail of them if they dislike the F-20 idea. No word yet though from the local Dornier about their Alpha Jets. It sure would be nice to have those to replace our S.211s. |
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Command is about authority, about appointment to a position. Effective leadership is different. It must be learned and practiced in order for it to rise to the level of art. You must love those you lead before you can be an effective leader. You can certainly command without that sense of commitment but you cannot lead without it; and without leadership, command is a hollow experience. .. a vacuum often filled with mistrust and ignorance. Gen. Eric K. Shinseki | |
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| jammerjamesky | Apr 27 2006, 08:59 AM Post #14 |
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I think its time for the PAF to replace the S-211 trainer jet. We need much better unit to train our pilots and future pilots. About the Alpha Jet maybe its hard for us to get back the production line of this Alpha jets. Consider already that Alpha Jets rights are already sold to other German Aero company. Correct me if im wrong its EADS has already all the rights to manufacture the jet. Whats left for the Dornier Corporation was their smaller sea planes. Even their bigger plane production rights are already sold in late 2000. What can Dornier Company can do to get Alpha jet is to buy a new or 2nd hand units from EADS then lease it to the Philippine Air Force. Actually they have already started to set up the asseambly line of the smaller sea planes in Clark .There they can also house the maintenance and repair site for the leased unit of Alpha Jets. This is a much clearer possibility than getting involve in the openning the asseambly line of the plane or let Dornier take care the R& D of the Cali Pinto Project. They have already gained a full technological uplift when they brought in the Alpha Jet into production so let them invlove right. How about a cross breed between the Alpha and Pinto jet? Sounds interesting? Right? |
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| City Hunter | Apr 28 2006, 08:07 AM Post #15 |
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Hmmm. Didn't realize that about the Alpha Jet. Thanks for the info, Sir jammerjamesky. My initial idea would be to produce a smaller variant of the F-5 while we are fine tuning the F-20 design. Katulad ba ng single engined version ng MiG 29 and Su-27 na ginawa ng Russia as their lightweight fighter. |
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Command is about authority, about appointment to a position. Effective leadership is different. It must be learned and practiced in order for it to rise to the level of art. You must love those you lead before you can be an effective leader. You can certainly command without that sense of commitment but you cannot lead without it; and without leadership, command is a hollow experience. .. a vacuum often filled with mistrust and ignorance. Gen. Eric K. Shinseki | |
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| jammerjamesky | Apr 28 2006, 08:28 AM Post #16 |
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Comrade City Hunter, Alpha Jet pala was a product of collaboration between Dassault-Breguet-Dornier Corporation and two nation development (Germany and France). Alpha Jet is a Twin Engine Subsonic jet plane. Alpha jet II integrated already the advance training sytem to enable the pilot develop and improved their skills in bombing and air combat mission.Dba mas malapit na tayo sa concept natin if we really get involved the Dornier Corporation in the R&D of the F-20 and cross breed between pinto and Alpha jet two. Ano kaya ang hitsura kung cross combination ng Cali pinto at Alpha jet? |
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| City Hunter | Apr 28 2006, 08:48 AM Post #17 |
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Judging from what we want for it - that is to replace the S.211s - most likely kamukha ng Korean Golden Eagle or that Yak and Aermachi (ano nga ba spelling nun) na attack and trainer jet. Yun nga lang most likely European tech versus the Korean na American tech derived. Yun bang attack profile - mataas yun nasa likod na upuan kaysa sa harap - most likely with armoring underneath to survive ground fire. Been checking for that GAU-8 cannon pod for the F-20 pero wala ako makita. Meron ba talaga nun? Maganda isalpak to our attack jets if ever kasi - if there really such. Pero from what I read 20mm ammo is getting improved kaya maaring di na rin natin kailangan to move to 30mm (although medyo odd yun 27mm na gamit tulad sa Gripen). Might need a new cannon though for such. |
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Command is about authority, about appointment to a position. Effective leadership is different. It must be learned and practiced in order for it to rise to the level of art. You must love those you lead before you can be an effective leader. You can certainly command without that sense of commitment but you cannot lead without it; and without leadership, command is a hollow experience. .. a vacuum often filled with mistrust and ignorance. Gen. Eric K. Shinseki | |
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| tirad | Apr 28 2006, 01:38 PM Post #18 |
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I doubt they'd try to put a GAU-8 pod on an F-20 or similar. And I think no podded GAU-8 exists. Even the A-10 had to be built around that huge 7-barrel cannon, with its monster recoil and massive ammo drum. There's the GAU-8's little brother, the 4-barrel GAU-13 (also 30x173mm), in a GPU-5 centerline pod (w/ 300+ rds) for mounting on the F-16 and F-5/F-20. Even at lower ROF (half that of GAU-8), excessive rattling of the pod when the GAU-13 was fired caused reliability/accuracy problems. Out of production na rin ata ang GPU-5. You'll find a lot of references online to the F-20 (and similar-class aircraft) with the GPU-5/GAU-13 as optional weapon in centerline pod mounting. Ayus na rin yang GAU-13 if they can solve the problems with the pod. Or like the A-10, make it an integral part of the aircraft, whether it's the F-20 or some other. Or maybe even rechamber the GAU-13 from 30x173mm to the "lightweight" 30mm, the 30x113mm, for more manageable recoil. The lw30mm is the round used by the single-barrel chain gun on the Apache and US SOCOM and Colombian Black Hawk gunship conversions, Giat has a turreted version for the Tiger (probably can also replace the 3bbl 20mm on the AH-1Z), and also some fixed-wing aircraft like the Harrier, Mirage, etc. In a future scenario, with the lw30mm, there'll be commonality of rounds used on attack helos and combat aircraft. |
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| City Hunter | Apr 28 2006, 04:22 PM Post #19 |
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Thanks for the info, Sir tirad. I think there must be a mix up in the data I've read. I know for a fact that there are single-barreled 30mm gun pods that uses ammo similar to what the A-10 uses. One of which is the Oerlikon KCA cannon used by the Viggen. The other is a Mauser cannon but no idea what uses it and the correct complete designation. I was thinking it might be like the Oerlikon KCA that was mentioned outfitted for the likes of the F-20. But I too doubt that as the Viggen is a big aircraft compared to the F-20. Maybe the F-15 or Kfir could take those. Limited rin daw yun ammo content so it'll be probably be good only for a few passes. |
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Command is about authority, about appointment to a position. Effective leadership is different. It must be learned and practiced in order for it to rise to the level of art. You must love those you lead before you can be an effective leader. You can certainly command without that sense of commitment but you cannot lead without it; and without leadership, command is a hollow experience. .. a vacuum often filled with mistrust and ignorance. Gen. Eric K. Shinseki | |
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| israeli | Apr 29 2006, 01:54 AM Post #20 |
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hey comrade City Hunter! ![]() i really admire your effort in informing our government and military officials about the possibility of adopting the F-20 design for the indigenous MRF of the PAF. how did they respond to such a proposal and other suggestions on AFP Modernization that you have raised? i hope the responses were positive. ![]() as for the possible replacement of the S-211s, here are some of my personal choices: ![]() -- EADS/CASA C-101 Aviojet ![]() -- Aermacchi MB-339FD ![]() -- Aermacchi-Yakolev M-346 ![]() -- Yakolev Yak-130 ![]() -- KAI T-50 Golden Eagle |
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