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| IF ALL OUR NAVAL ASSETS HAVE MISSILES; would encroaching on Spratlys prevented? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 9 2005, 09:14 AM (2,961 Views) | |
| fizzy123 | Dec 14 2005, 09:46 PM Post #31 |
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Ok folks, just stumbled upon this nice forum...... I intro myself first, I'm from Singapore, and have served my conscript term and now is basically a reservist. I agree with the arguement that ships without missiles of anti-ship capabilities are very very much disadvantaged in today's context. With anti-ship missiles becoming more sophisticated and longer range, ships without missiles might become totally washed out in future. BUT, small range, humble AshM still are veri- potent in future naval conflicts. I'm not try to flame anione here or try to show off here....... I'm give my example in Singapore context the sea-wolf MGB armed with a simple, modest Grabriel 1 missile with the range of only 20KM. It was bought during the 70s when Singapore is just independent for a few years, poor, under-developed, no resources available. It served Singapore well for 30 yrs even when our neighbours have gone into corvette and frigates type of ships. So wat can a small Missile gun boat do and fight in light of other larger ships? Picture this scenario........... A missile gun boat picks up an agressor frigates on it's radar..... It can take up these measures, hide among the many small islands and wait to 'ambush' it. Mean-while the chance for the frigate to detect the MGB is also high.....BUT.... due to th light tonnage and size of the MGB, the Frigate will most probably mistook it for a typical trawler or other commercial ships. Thus it is possible for the MGB to sneak attack the frigate and defeat it..... Thus a small missile is effective if u use it wisely against ur bigger opponent. I agree there are financial constraints for PN but PN does not need to arm all it's ships with missile, perhaps onli the sea going ones. I think the Grabriel on MGB still have a long way to go before being obsolete. The type on MGB is actually the Grabriel 2 which is 36 KM. Lastly, just a side track, I want to know why the people here say USA might force ur country to buy their weapons?
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| jammerjamesky | Dec 15 2005, 07:51 AM Post #32 |
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The Influence of the US government in the arms dealership is always seen. Take note that USA is number one weapon supplier on our country and we have JUSMAG here also in our country. Most of the fundings of the AFP was supported by the US government.No other foreign government help a bulk financing the AFP's project,so as a result colonial mentality also gain US a most favored dealer. |
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| City Hunter | Dec 15 2005, 07:57 AM Post #33 |
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Welcome to the forum, Sir fizzy123! Please do share your thoughts and ideas on the several issues discussed here. As for my thought on this subject, I'd rather at this point have our naval assets acquire those retired BO 105s from Germany for naval air assets. Since we are already using, as unofficially reported, short-ranged anti-tank missiles on our boats (note: not ships) let's improve on this further. Basically, my idea would lean more on how the Israelis use their air assets to deny their Arab enemies the battlefield. In our case, air assets have more room to maneuver as compared to naval vessels especially in the confines of the Spratlys. Naval vessels in this case will just be like tanks and APCs, quite vulnerable from the air. During this period, we continue to arm most of our small boats with these missiles (hopefully compatible with those BO 105s). These will also set up an effective coastal defense fleet for us. As for Sir fizzy123's question about the Americans, its more of their influence on many of our leaders and fellow Filipinos. One fine example is Gen. Garcia recently found guilty not only of stealing government funds but equally being an American citizen while serving in the Philippine Armed Forces. The Americans knew this a long time yet tolerated him and kept quiet about it until the day they were ready to sacrifice him. There's also JUSMAG. But basically, its sad to admit but a lot of Filipinos have lost their nationalism due to many factors. That is why a lot are crying for a better leader or more positive actions from present officials that would not prostitute us to foreign powers. |
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Command is about authority, about appointment to a position. Effective leadership is different. It must be learned and practiced in order for it to rise to the level of art. You must love those you lead before you can be an effective leader. You can certainly command without that sense of commitment but you cannot lead without it; and without leadership, command is a hollow experience. .. a vacuum often filled with mistrust and ignorance. Gen. Eric K. Shinseki | |
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| el_commandante | Dec 15 2005, 01:50 PM Post #34 |
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Buying US made weapons makes sense for the time being, the reason our C130 are still flying is because the US are supplying some of the spare parts for free. Of course this should not go on. we want to be independent. On a commercial topic. Our own flag carrier the Philippine Air lines (partly own by the government) is now refleeting with European made Airbus. I am sure the Philippine government is under a lot of pressure to shift to US made Boeing aircraft. |
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| Yaberdaber | Dec 15 2005, 01:55 PM Post #35 |
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Now, I have not read all of the comments here on the thread, but some of them and during my analysis... the outcome of the Mischief Reef would have been the same, but we may have lost more. A missile capable Philippine navy would not deter a Chinese aggression, but would provoke them to having a skirmish with us by inciting a "finger-pointing" blame game as to who started the fire. We must remember that the PLAN is overwhelmingly powerful and they put Taiwan in place. If they can scare the Taiwanese Navy to submission in '95, how less would it be for only a missile armed Navy like ours. That is just my analysis (if I'm way off... it's gotta be because I stayed up all night). BTW, someone posted blowing up the structures on the Reef... those structures are guarded by hard-core PLAN Marines. They employ the same tactics as our SWAG... kinda like the Asian version of Spetsnaz, Naval. So... it takes work to actually dislodge the Chinese hold. The only way is to land a Marine recon team, destroy comms, then land the rest of the battalion or two and guard it with a Navy fleet... but then... that would incite war. |
"Leadership is the other side of the coin of loneliness, and he who is a leader must always act alone. And in acting alone, accept everything alone." - Ferdinand Marcos
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| City Hunter | Dec 16 2005, 09:34 AM Post #36 |
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What we need is a strong defense force to back up our diplomatic protests. Let's play the game China is doing. If Vietnam even after being defeated by China could still hold its own ground then so could we. And with Japan formally lodging complaints to China's "explorations" on their disputed areas, China was forced to keep those actions to "explorations" only. If we had then had a stronger navy and air force those ChiComs would've hesitated to put up those structures. Be reminded that those structures at Panganiban Reef aka Mischief Reef was first admitted to have been ok'd by lower ranking officers without the approval of their superiors. Only when the complaint reached international forum did Beijing defended the construction of these questionable shelters. Having those Israeli Spike anti-tank missiles on some of our boats is a good move. But we need more and better items than that to make an impact. A locally modified Gripen B Plus with conformal tanks and enlarged wings as depicted in future upgrades would make a more definite statement for the present. And it can land too on one of the islands we hold in KIG to oppose those ChiCom J-8 fighter-bombers of theirs (besides, with those shallow waters it would be a specific ship which cannot give pursuit or evade over deeper waters). The last I heard was that our "Tora-Tora's" got assigned to the KIG area even after their retirement. No idea if that was true though. Then we slowly modernize our naval fleet to our requirements (more corvettes and smaller craft muna) and retire our old vessles until they are needed once more (maybe for reservist training and use). |
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Command is about authority, about appointment to a position. Effective leadership is different. It must be learned and practiced in order for it to rise to the level of art. You must love those you lead before you can be an effective leader. You can certainly command without that sense of commitment but you cannot lead without it; and without leadership, command is a hollow experience. .. a vacuum often filled with mistrust and ignorance. Gen. Eric K. Shinseki | |
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| fizzy123 | Dec 16 2005, 04:21 PM Post #37 |
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I don't think SPIKE missiles have any effect against those PLAN ships. Bcos the spike missiles are designed for anti-tank duties not enough HE to deal with a typical 130 m long ship. I think Philippines must still seriously look into AshM missiles even though it is a veri short range one. Because even by arming a few ships, U can cause a strong psychological shock effect on China. Give an example......., ( I'm not trying to flame here), Singapore purchasing AMX-13 tanks which is second hand, and parading only 20 or so of them during national day 1969. During that time, Singapore and Malaysia is having some seriously bad blood relationship, due to the unique political events that led to our independence. Some die-hard nationalist even outrightly, un-bashfully declare that Malaysia should take back Singapore by force. BUT......., after the 1969 national day, those die-hards just quiet down........ why? Bcos Singapore accquired tanks, which is the first in SEA, and there isn't ani doctrines then or weapons available in Malaysia tat could defeat tanks...... Thus if Philippines could get a few anti-ship missiles......, China will think twice abt expanding in Spratlys.
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| israeli | Dec 16 2005, 11:39 PM Post #38 |
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those Spikes, if ever the Philippine Navy does have them, are only good for near-coast defense duties. what the Navy needs are potent anti-ship and air defense missiles that could deter possible aggressors (such as China) from playing dirty tricks within Philippine territorial waters and EEZ. however, given the Philippines' TERRIBLE graft and corruption problem, it might take another 100 years before the Navy actually gets the much needed guided-missile corvettes, offshore patrol vessels, missile-armed fast attack crafts, maritime patrol aircraft and naval helicopters with anti-ship and anti-submarine warfare capabilities and anti-ship and air defense missiles.
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| "To secure peace is to prepare for war." - Carl Von Clausewitz | |
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| Yaberdaber | Dec 16 2005, 11:59 PM Post #39 |
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You all know those words? "A nation sinks with her navy" Hmm... maybe we should put emphasis on navy, like the Japs. |
"Leadership is the other side of the coin of loneliness, and he who is a leader must always act alone. And in acting alone, accept everything alone." - Ferdinand Marcos
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| City Hunter | Dec 17 2005, 07:27 AM Post #40 |
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I'm reading a bit about the Spike missiles and they are a good move for us. Not only are they cheap but they need less training and equipment to operate. Hence, the best move for our forces that are yet to progress into the modern battlefield needs. And I'd rather we go the avenue we are proposing for the PAF. That we develop our own. Add along a revival of the missile program. This way, we gain proficiency in developing the things we need instead of buying them. And we could improve too the current inventory that we have. How can this be of benefit to our Navy? First, we manufacture more of this small missile boats locally. Adapt more weapons to those that could be like on the Swift and Andrada classes. Then adapt those weapons from our junked items like the 20mm cannons from the F8s and F5s (don't know if we kept the hardware from the F86s). This way, we already have ammo and experience in maintaining these. Let's just pass the knowledge to the Navy boys (and to hell with service rivalries). Then, as our missile project progresses we get to field or improve on the missiles we are equipping ours with. Let's say, mate that fire-and-forget ability of the Spike with a longer range missile we have developed. Its a wild idea, I admit. But considering the funds used to research and develop our own is far better than continually buying weapons in the open market. And at the same time continually upgrading the capability and proficiency of our troops against such external threats (in the immediate future when our Gripens, F16 MLUs, F/A 18s or MiG 29s arrive we use the anti-ship weapons these have to either replace or augment the Spikes). Even if we can afford expensive toys at this point, how can we afford to train with it anyway. In the future, we could then tailor-fit things to our needs. |
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Command is about authority, about appointment to a position. Effective leadership is different. It must be learned and practiced in order for it to rise to the level of art. You must love those you lead before you can be an effective leader. You can certainly command without that sense of commitment but you cannot lead without it; and without leadership, command is a hollow experience. .. a vacuum often filled with mistrust and ignorance. Gen. Eric K. Shinseki | |
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