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Old new again; second-hand bargains
Topic Started: Aug 3 2005, 06:31 AM (8,064 Views)
possible
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datu: the caveat at your OPV thread was that bnew corvettes, frigates, FACs were "out of the question", obviously because of price. practically unarmed, the 4,500 ton MSCL costs $140 million, the other cutter is a 3,000 tonner so $100 million is a safe bet regarding unit cost. take it from there.

israeli: of course but i am specifically asking about the Turkish Avisos, call it plain curiosity. again, would Turkey's being an OIC member preclude arms exports to the Philippines? then again, they do have extensive dealings with Israel...


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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datu
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Quote:
 
datu: the caveat at your OPV thread was that bnew corvettes, frigates, FACs were "out of the question", obviously because of price. practically unarmed, the 4,500 ton MSCL costs $140 million, the other cutter is a 3,000 tonner so $100 million is a safe bet regarding unit cost. take it from there.


Thats not what i said. what i said was,
Quote:
 
What about external fleet, missile frigates and missile corvettes are out of the question.
Read the tiltle of the OPV thread, "Offshore Patrol Vessels, old and new." I still dont know what you were trying to say is "out of the question"... Why talk about the USCG cutters and their price all of a sudden when me and "horge"'s discussion had nothing to do about the cutters price or the main topic of the cutters at all? Me and horge's discussion was only about the interesting/very practical design horge put up about the aft heli deck and RHIB insertion/retrieval area behind that, coincidently which the only picture that i thought of the moment was the USCG cutters. Note: i said that
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For visual purposes the USCG has something similar in thier new Maritime Security Cutter, Large and their Offshore Patrol Cutter, basically , a helo deck and a RHIB launch and recovery area behind it.
...again note i said that was for visual purposes only.



"F*ck it, Dude. Let's go bowling."
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israeli
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possible
Aug 5 2005, 07:50 AM
israeli: of course but i am specifically asking about the Turkish Avisos, call it plain curiosity. again, would Turkey's being an OIC member preclude arms exports to the Philippines? then again, they do have extensive dealings with Israel...

the Turkish Avisos are ex-French Navy ships. they only carry two MM38 Exocet SSMs and anti-submarine warfare rockets (the old armament of the unupgraded Avisos) instead of four MM40 Exocet SSMs, one twin-cell Simbad (Mistral) SAM launcher and four anti-submarine warfare torpedo tubes. the Turkish Navy already owns them and it has no intention of selling them to other buyers (so far, out of all their warships, only Knox class frigates are retired by the Turkish Navy). if the Philippine Navy really wants those Avisos, it has to go directly to France and negotiate for four or six of the vessels to be transferred to it and be given upgrades such as having four MM40 Exocet SSMs, one twin-cell Simbad (Mistral) SAM launcher and four anti-submarine warfare torpedo tubes.

as far as the Philippines making arms deals with Turkey, i do not see any deterrent for the same to push through. in fact, the Philippine Army is (correct me if i'm wrong with this, guys) buying Turkish-made armored recovery vehicles that are similar to the AIFVs.
"To secure peace is to prepare for war." - Carl Von Clausewitz
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possible
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datu: same thing: expensive missile frigates and expensive missile corvettes are out of the question because? again, I have no objections to horge’s post because I said the same thing at your OPV thread. I am asking you for your opinion because your observations have often been possibly the most realistic here and because the question of what’s “out of the question” directly impacts on the rationale for acquiring second-hand vessels, the subject of this thread. I apologize for what I said in the past.

israeli: of course we all know about the French but I am asking specifically about Turkey. ARVs aren’t combat vehicles so that doesn’t answer the question of whether an OIC member would consider arms exports to the Philippines, Malaysia obtained FNSS APCs with Delco Sharpshooter turrets, funds willing would we be able to do something similar, or is politics unwilling?


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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possible: regarding the question about Turkey being an OIC member having an effect on possible Turkish-made weapons purchases by non-Muslim countries such as the Philippines, i don't know but if Turkey and Israel (Muslim countries' ultimate enemy) are able to do business, then i guess the OIC status of Turkey might not have an effect on the Philippines just in case it decides to buy weapons from Turkey.
"To secure peace is to prepare for war." - Carl Von Clausewitz
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possible
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israeli: ok. Turkish companies offer a lot of interesting products kasi.

back to the ULSAN-class: here's the Indian Coast Guard version

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SUKANYA CLASS

First three vessels ordered in March 1987 from Korea Tacoma to an Ulsan Class design. Second four ordered in August 1987. The Korean-built ships were commissioned at Masan and then later sailed to India where the armament was fitted. Three ships, of a modified design called the Samar Class, have been built for the Coast Guard. These vessels are used for defense protection of offshore installations and patrol of the EEZ (Exclusive Economic Zone). Immarsat can be fitted on the hangar roof. Potential for role change is considerable. First three vessels based at Mumbai, the next pair at Vizag and the last pair at Kochi.

SAMAR CLASS

Vessel Type:  Advanced Offshore Patrol Vessel.

Structure: Similar to the Sukanya Class large patrol vessel but more heavily armed and carries a helicopter capable of transporting a marine contingent. The vessel also has a telescopic hangar.

Helicopters: With a capability to handle a 6.5 ton helicopter, these AOPVs can embark a  HAL Chetak, a HAL Dhruv or a Sea King Mk.42B helicopter. The flight deck has a landing grid and is fitted with equipment to aid night landing.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com

the hulls of the SUKANYA and SAMAR-class OPVs are identical to the ULSAN-class, these only differ in the above-water structures, propulsion fit, weapons and electronics. clearly, it's possible to install not just a helipad but a hangar on these vessels, on the other hand, the fact that India builds these OPVs themselves (the 5th SAMAR-class is currently being built in India at a cost of 228.13 crores or US$52.5 million) means that the Koreans also offer local production of ULSAN-class designs. and of course anyone can just try buying these ships from India just like what Sri Lanka did.

oldies but goodies offering a lot of possibilities :fire:


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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israeli
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i am reposting this in the "Old New Again" thread because i am thinking that this is more suited to be in this thread than in the World Navies in Review thread. :thumb:

some of the naval vessels that have been or are to be retired from service and might be available for purchase (if ever) by the Philippine Navy:

1. Chile's Condell (modified Leander) class frigates - now replaced in service by four ex-Dutch Navy (two Jacob van Heemskerck ["L"] class and two Karel Doorman ["M"] class) and four ex-Royal Navy (one Type 22 Batch 2 and three Duke class [Type 23]) frigates.

photo of the Lynch, one of Chile's Leander class frigates:

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2. French D'Estienne D'Orves (A-69) class corvettes - ten of the vessels still with the French Navy.

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3. two remaining Belgian Wielingen class frigates - one of the Wielingens has been sold to Bulgaria. the Bulgarians expressed interest in acquiring another one of the ships.

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4. Australian Fremantle class patrol boats - the Aussies have slowly retired them from service, to be replaced by a newer class of patrol boats.

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5. Norwegian Oslo class frigates - the three remaining Oslo class frigates are slowly on their way out as Norway receives Aegis-equipped Nansen class frigates.

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6. Greek Ipiros (Knox) class frigates - recently phased out by the Hellenic Navy as it receives additional ex-Dutch Navy Kortenaer class frigates.

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7. Greek Combattante II class torpedo-missile FACs - recently retired from Hellenic Navy service.

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8. Royal Navy Sandown class minehunters - three of the vessels retired as a result of defense budget cut.

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9. Israeli Sa'ar 4 and Sa'ar 4.5 classes of FACs - still being offered in the Naval Surplus section of the Israeli defense website (http://www.sibat.mod.gov.il). Sa'ar 4.5 is helicopter-capable.

Sa'ar 4:

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Sa'ar 4.5:

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10. South African Warrior/Minister/Jan Smuts class FACs - similar to the Israeli Sa'ar 4 class FACs. these FACs are on the way out as the South African Navy accepts four MEKO A-200 class "corvettes".


11. German Tiger class (Type 143) missile boats - three units of the type still with the German Navy.

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Sketch:

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"To secure peace is to prepare for war." - Carl Von Clausewitz
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israeli
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12. Spanish Descubierta class light frigates - the Spanish Navy recently stripped the four remaining Descubiertas (flagship Descubierta was already relegated as a patrol ship in the Canary Islands and second ship Diana was converted into a mine countermeasures command ship)- Infanta Elena, Infanta Cristina, Cazadora and Vencedora- of missiles and other offensive weapons and converted them into patrol ships in the Canary Islands. the Spanish Navy plans to decommission ALL of the Descubiertas soon. Uruguay recently expressed its interest in acquiring some of the Descubierta class frigates.

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13. Danish Flyvefisken class multi-purpose vessels - there are talk about the Danish Navy decommissioning some of its Flyvefisken class multi-purpose vessels and placing them on sale to foreign navies to "gather up funds for new types of vessels that will enter the Danish Navy."

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14. Royal Navy Sir Lancelot class LSTs - the Royal Navy recently decommissioned two of its older Sir Lancelot class LSTs, the RFA Sir Geraint and the RFA Sir Percivale (which escorted the Peacock class corvettes to the Philippines when they were transferred to the PN by the RN). both built in the 1960's, these ships underwent SLEP but were not given an equivalent overhaul as the RFA Sir Bedivere, causing them to be discarded from service and replaced by newer amphibious ships. still, i believe that these two LSTs are worthy replacements to PN's World War II-era LSTs.

Specifications (from hazegray.org):

Displacement: 5,774 (L3036: 5,674) tons full load
Dimensions: 126 x 17.94 x 3.98 meters (413 x 59 x 13 feet)
Propulsion: 2 diesels, 2 shafts, 9,400 bhp, 17.25 knots
Crew: 65 civilian
Aviation: aft helicopter deck
Troops: 402
Cargo: 340 tons vehicles & supplies (16 tanks, 34 vehicles)
EW: intercept, 2 chaff
Armament: 2 20 mm

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Larger Image: http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~cy...eritage/ger.jpg


15. South Korean Patrol Killer Medium (Sea Dolphin/PKM) class patrol boats - more PKMs are to be retired from service (PN already has 10(?) PKMs in service) as the South Koreans pursue the PKM-X next-generation patrol boat program.

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16. US Navy Newport class LSTs - several Newport class LSTs are still being stored by the US Navy in its facilities in Pearl Harbor and Philadelphia.

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17. Russian Tarantul III class missile boats - very powerful guided-missile FACs, armed with four SS-N-22 Sunburn (Moskit) SSMs. the Russians once offered to sell some Tarantuls to the PN but the offer was not taken up by the PN. the Vietnamese Navy has several FACs similar to the Tarantuls in service.

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18. Turkish Muavenet (Knox) class frigates - the Turkish Navy is slowly decommissioning its fleet of Muavenet (Knox) class frigates, which they bought from the US during the early 1990's.

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19. Australian Adelaide (Perry) class guided-missile frigates - the Royal Australian Navy decided to decommission two of its Adelaide class guided-missile frigates and sell them to potential buyers in order to fund the upgrading of the four remaining Adelaides. the first one to be decommissioned will be the HMAS Canberra, which will be taken out of service by November 2005. potential buyers of the vessels include Pakistan, Thailand and Portugal (which received two ex-US Navy Perry class frigates recently).

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"To secure peace is to prepare for war." - Carl Von Clausewitz
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datu
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possible:
"datu: same thing: expensive missile frigates and expensive missile corvettes are out of the question because? again, I have no objections to horge’s post because I said the same thing at your OPV thread. I am asking you for your opinion because your observations have often been possibly the most realistic here and because the question of what’s “out of the question” directly impacts on the rationale for acquiring second-hand vessels, the subject of this thread. I apologize for what I said in the past."

No apologizing, lets all talk about AFP and ways to make it improve.

Out of all your ships "israeli" id forget about the Knox frigates. They were retired from Turks and Greeks after only 10 or so years of service for a reason...i.e. inherant problems either it be the engines, or the structure of the ship or just plain old age. The Egyptians, and Taiwanese are suffering the same problems, i wouldnt know about the Thais. The only thing stopping the Taiwanese from discarding theirs is setbacks on designing a replacement.


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possible
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datu: ok. I’m assuming that price is indeed your criterion for considering a particular acquisition “out of the question”.

israeli: the FLYVEFISKEN-class are perfect since they are relatively young, have very strong hulls, an efficient propulsion system, and StanFLEX, it’s been reported that at least three have been prematurely decommissioned with another soon to follow its sisters pierside. the AVISO and DESCUBIERTA-class and most of those FACs are reasonable prospects too.

but it’s those British RFAs that are most deserving of being looked at closely since these are what the PN needs at present. assuming the hulls are still sound, the main question mark would be running cost, in Exercise Saif Sareea II (PDF file!), Sept.-Oct. 2001, RFAs incurred the highest identified costs (Part 3, p. 37) among all vessels participating. are there younger transports pegged for retirement elsewhere?

question for israeli and everyone: for the SANDOWN-class

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Frigates and Minehunters

Mr. Duncan Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the cost per annum is of operating (a) Type 23 frigates, (b) Type 22 frigates, (c ) SSNs, (d) Hunt Class minehunters and (e) Sandown Class minehunters.

Mr. Spellar [holding answer 11 May 2000]: The actual cost per annum of operation (a) Type 23 frigates, (b) Type 22 frigates, (c ) SSNs, (d) Hunt Class minehunters and (e) Sandown Class minehunters will vary considerably dependent on the tasking/maintenance undertaken.Indicative annual costs, including manpower, fuel and  stores only, would be in the region of £16 million for a Type 23 and a Type 22 frigate, £11 million for an SSN, £3 million for a Hunt Class minehunter and £2 million for a Sandown Class minehunter.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk

would the figure highlighted be considered acceptable for the PN, or does it render ships with similar running costs out of the question?

PERRY-class

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9.2  The Committee was provided with the following indication of the magnitude of annual operating costs of some major platforms:

Table 9.1  Indicative Personnel and Operating Costs for Major Platforms

Capability/Annual operating cost (in A$ millions)

F-111 aircraft  244

F/A-18 aircraft  300

Adelaide class frigates  152

Perth class destroyers  106

Collins class submarines  36*

Anzac class frigates  23*

* indicates that these are preliminary figures as these systems were just entering service at time of advice.

Funding Australia’s Defence: Chapter 9 (PDF file!)

combined annual costs for all units in service, at the time of the report (1998) there were 6 Aussie ADELAIDE/PERRY-class in the RAN, in 1998 US dollars that would be around $16 million per ship (which is consistent with Opus’ figure for the same type in USN service), given today’s fuel prices it’s safe to assume those numbers would be a lot higher.

KNOX-class, I agree with datu, too maintenance intensive (probably because of the steam turbines), same has been aired about the NEWPORT NEWS and LEANDER-class. the OSLO and the MINISTER-class look good technically, the issue is the environment where these ships have spent most of their service lives in - the North Atlantic/Arctic and the southern tip of Africa respectively, some of the most punishing places for any vessel to sail in, the same ship serving elsewhere would presumably suffer less fatigue or damage over its lifetime.

thanks for posting, guys :thumb:


War. What is it good for?--James Brown

What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner

Only the intelligent are brave.
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