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| Old new again; second-hand bargains | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 3 2005, 06:31 AM (8,061 Views) | |
| possible | Aug 3 2005, 06:31 AM Post #1 |
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taking off from what’s been posted on datu’s OPV thread, suggest possible future acquisitions for the Philippine Navy, the caveat being that these should all be a. strictly second-hand and b. suitable for Philippine requirements (give arguments). starting with a couple more oldies but goodies, this time from closer to home, the Republic of Korea ![]() ULSAN-CLASS ![]() POHANG-CLASS <a href='http://www.hanjinsc.com' target='_blank'>http://www.hanjinsc.com</a> frigate and corvette-class ships built in Korea, mid-80s to the early 90s. the ULSAN-class are 1,500-2,000 tonners, the POHANG-class weigh in at 1,300 tons. both equipped for ASuW, AAW and ASW. generous propulsion arrangements – among the most powerful in the world horsepower per ton – in addition to twin diesels each mounts GE LM2500 gas turbines (standard US Navy fit), the ULSAN with two, the POHANG one, allowing 30+ knot speeds. a concern is that gas turbines inherently cost more to run than four-stroke diesels, but fuel consumption is also a factor of ship size, tonnage and most importantly operational use, reasonable to assume less expensive coastal and limited EEZ ops in vessels less than half the weight of, say, the USN’s PERRY-class globetrotters, and unlike the PERRY-class (which don’t have diesels) the Korean duo can choose to run using gas or diesel engines. one thing with the ROKN is that their ships invariably pack a heavy gun armament, consequence of frequent border skirmishes with their Northern neighbors, missiles being a no-no in these situations since an anti-ship missile fired near the coast runs the risk of straying and hitting something on land, obviously a missile detected heading toward North Korea might just make things very interesting on the DMZ . still both classes have room for antiship missiles and are sometimes armed with Harpoons or Exocets. these ships are suitable platforms for the PN because they are multi-role vessels in more ways than one: large enough to patrol places smaller ships can’t (like the big water up North, and Korean seas are very challenging being so close to the Arctic) yet still compact for the shallows (like in the South), fast with gas turbines for responding rapidly to incidents yet economical with diesels for more sedate assignments, and armed with guns for dealing with terrs yet, external defense-wise, equipped with sonar to take on the critical coastal and internal waters ASW task necessary to secure, say, the ships transporting troops from Mindanao back to Luzon (vice-versa) from submarine attack. the ROKN is currently undergoing a massive modernization with virtually all older units lined up for replacement. this could very well be a bonanza for smaller navies like the PN since there are more than 40 units of the ULSAN, POHANG, and TONGHAE (POHANG prototype) classes in South Korean Navy service. given the longstanding friendship between our two nations (deluge of sissy-ass telenovelas notwithstanding), wouldn’t be surprised to see, God willing, some of these vessels flying the Philippine flag within the next decade. |
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War. What is it good for?--James Brown What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner Only the intelligent are brave. | |
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| possible | Aug 3 2005, 06:42 AM Post #2 |
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in case some are wondering whether (relatively) old second-hand ships are still worthwhile options, ![]() ORKAN-CLASS (aka SASSNITZ-CLASS) hardly old (1992-1995) but the Polish Navy decided that their electronics were outdated. enter the usual suspects
the result ![]() more pics a smart upgrade: Poland retained the very effective hardware of Russian origin (the AK-176 main gun, AK-630 Gatling CIWS, and the ASW RLs), added some equipment of their own (Grom VSHORAD missiles, improved Polish version of the Igla), and laid it all on the foundation of a solid electronics and missile package: Thales TACTICOS Combat Management System, Ericsson Sea Giraffe AMB phased-array multi-role radar, Thales STING-EO combined radar/infrared camera fire control and surveillance sensor, and the Saab Bofors Dynamics RBS-15 Mark 3 200-kilometer range anti-ship/land-attack missile. a Cold War-era boat transformed into one of the most powerful naval platforms of its size in the world. given all these options, does the PN still need to look at brand-new combat vessels?
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War. What is it good for?--James Brown What's love got to do with it?--Tina Turner Only the intelligent are brave. | |
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| horge | Aug 3 2005, 08:26 AM Post #3 |
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| edwin | Aug 3 2005, 08:55 AM Post #4 |
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In my opinion, All options you posted are PERFECT(ULSAN,POHANG,ORKAN)considering the current status of PN. Philippine Navy are in pressing need of a combatant ship enough to project power in our territorial economic zone. If Endurance of those ships are not in the same class like OPV, then just upgrade the radar system in order to have a longer coverage coupled with long range anti-ship/anti-aircraft missile. Those Korean Naval Ships are more than enough since they are Multi Role and are capable as other modern Navy ships with a budget price(i think) affordable by smaller navy. Peace to all. |
![]() It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and reality of tomorrow. | |
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| Manokski | Aug 3 2005, 12:43 PM Post #5 |
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Nice thread and nice post Horge.. To expand on his point - me thinks (IMHO) he is exactly right. In fact, the idea as some of you probably know too, has been floated around in the US a while back in the 80s and 90s I think. There was a program started in the US to assist the Philippine Navy along those lines. The program had gotten as far as the proposal stage (I'm hunting around for a copy of it...I think I have it here somewhere in the nether regions of my hard drives...). The plan was to design, build and give to the Philippines as part of foreign military aid a ship with long endurance that would be simple for the PN to acquire and maintain. It would basically, if I remember it right, use a modern hull powered with diesel engines but equipped with either surplus weapons and sensors (older but still modern enough to be maintainable and useful for PN purposes) and/or simpler weapons and sensors that would be cheaper to acquire and easier for the PN to maintain. The reasoning being was that the biggest chunk of money was not really the cost of the hull and engines but the cost of the the weapons and sensors. (ie instead of using new 5 inch full automatic guns, take older 5 inch guns from retired US ships like the Charles F Adams class). The program even had the support of US industry. A consortium had gotten together to put a plan in place if I remember it right).. As Horge well knows (but Im repeating it for the benefit of those who dont know) Using merchie hulls and second hand engines and equipment to flesh out a ship is not exactly a new thing for the PN either - the two most modern ships in the PN - the Besson class LSVs are based on a merchie hull and built to merchie standards. They also use second hand engines. Of course, that plan has long since died but it is noteworthy to point out that Philippine shipyards have built merchant hulls from the ground up in the Philippines - hulls as large as 3,000 tons if Im not mistaken. How about using a relatively small merchie hull, 1000 or so tons to capable of 20 or so knots (speed is money) powered by diesel engines, helo deck behind and take the guns from our current ships like the Rajah Humabon (which btw is still plagued by hull problems so really does not deploy very far these days and so for all intents and purposes is nearly useless). As money becomes available, sensors can be improved and equipment added. While it would be nice to have the best in pointy things, we have to start modestly. The idea is to get something started and get something useful that does not sit around the dock looking pretty and drains the PN budget just from starting its engines... My apologies for my babbling...here's hoping that it's made a little sense... |
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Manokski's ORBAT www.HueyBravo.net Manokski's Orbat | |
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| brassballs | Aug 3 2005, 01:02 PM Post #6 |
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Do you think that their thinking these days are different compared back in the 80's and 90's? (dont get me wrong this is just a curiosity.)since back then It is more of a conventional way of trying to check Soviet encroachments on the far east or other communist nations in Southeast asia. Maybe these days they are more keen on coastal patrols trying to curb terrorists infiltrators from neighboring countries or our exports to theirs? to stray a little bit off topic, I saw a segment on history channel regarding boneyards in the US from different type of naval ships that can be refitted or recommisioned on a short notice.This involves different capital ships to destroyers and carriers.Included on that part is the AMARC-center where they generated billions of dollars of savings/revenues by saving parts on different types of aircrafts and able to salvage aircrafts for future use (drones,training etc..) |
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| israeli | Aug 3 2005, 06:59 PM Post #7 |
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regarding the Pohangs, correct me if i'm wrong about this question. was there an instance in the past when the South Koreans actually offered some of their Pohang class corvettes (four to six of the vessels) to the Philippine Navy? i think they did offered those vessels to us after we bought some of their PKM patrol vessels. ![]() nice thread, possible. :thumb: |
| "To secure peace is to prepare for war." - Carl Von Clausewitz | |
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| horge | Aug 3 2005, 07:29 PM Post #8 |
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| israeli | Aug 3 2005, 08:56 PM Post #9 |
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horge: wouldn't the PN be better off in getting newly-built ships than second-hand ones? the acquisition cost maybe high but in the long run, the newly-built ships will be more cost effective to operate compared to the older ships, which will spend more of their time in the drydocks for repairs than at sea. |
| "To secure peace is to prepare for war." - Carl Von Clausewitz | |
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| horge | Aug 3 2005, 09:24 PM Post #10 |
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israeli, Well, sure, brand new is best. But... as has been intimated already: no money, no honey. |
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